Meanwhile back in Israel

Lerxst1992

gimmesometruth27 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Some democracy. Or is it occupation? And what was that about cleansing the West Bank of Palestinians again?

Settler violence is erasing Palestinian communities in the West Bank

UMM AL-KHEIR, West Bank — After dark in the South Hebron Hills, parents lie awake, listening for the settlers.

A crunch of wheels on the dusty road means it’s time to scoop their children closer, to tell them they are loved, that they will be safe. By the time the engine cuts, car doors slam and the footsteps get louder, another night of terror is in motion.

In the Palestinian village of Umm al-Kheir, residents described masked men in army uniforms overrunning their community last week. The men smashed residents’ cellphones so no one could document the beatings that followed.

In nearby Susiya, five men in similar dress beat Ahmed Nawaja, 38, underneath his olive tree. His daughters cried, he said, as the attackers slammed their rifle butts down on his body.

Violence by Israeli settlers, long aimed at depopulating rural Palestinian parts of the occupied West Bank, had grown common in the months since Prime Minister President Benjamin Netanyahu returned to power in late December — at the head of a coalition that included far-right settler activists who have been convicted of anti-Arab incitement and have advocated for the annexation of the West Bank.

this has been going on for years. the settlement expansion, and what that brings, is basically the root of what is motivating hamas.

And what was the motivation in 1967, when that land was first taken for their national security?

Halifax2TheMax

Gift article. I'll ask again, how many is "enough?"

Gaza reports more than 11,100 killed. That’s one out of every 200 people.

https://wapo.st/47t2E7F

mickeyrat

Halifax2TheMax said:

Gift article. I'll ask again, how many is "enough?"

Gaza reports more than 11,100 killed. That’s one out of every 200 people.

https://wapo.st/47t2E7F

when its 10-1 we can begin to think about discussing it. not there yet.

gimmesometruth27

Lerxst1992 said:

gimmesometruth27 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

Some democracy. Or is it occupation? And what was that about cleansing the West Bank of Palestinians again?

Settler violence is erasing Palestinian communities in the West Bank

UMM AL-KHEIR, West Bank — After dark in the South Hebron Hills, parents lie awake, listening for the settlers.

A crunch of wheels on the dusty road means it’s time to scoop their children closer, to tell them they are loved, that they will be safe. By the time the engine cuts, car doors slam and the footsteps get louder, another night of terror is in motion.

In the Palestinian village of Umm al-Kheir, residents described masked men in army uniforms overrunning their community last week. The men smashed residents’ cellphones so no one could document the beatings that followed.

In nearby Susiya, five men in similar dress beat Ahmed Nawaja, 38, underneath his olive tree. His daughters cried, he said, as the attackers slammed their rifle butts down on his body.

Violence by Israeli settlers, long aimed at depopulating rural Palestinian parts of the occupied West Bank, had grown common in the months since Prime Minister President Benjamin Netanyahu returned to power in late December — at the head of a coalition that included far-right settler activists who have been convicted of anti-Arab incitement and have advocated for the annexation of the West Bank.

this has been going on for years. the settlement expansion, and what that brings, is basically the root of what is motivating hamas.

And what was the motivation in 1967, when that land was first taken for their national security?

you tell us, mr expert.

brianlux

F Me In The Brain said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

roger waters is a detriment to the anti-occupation side. 

you can be against Israel's illegal occupation. 
you can be against the slaughter of innocent Israeli civilians. 
you can be against the slaughter of innocent Palestinian civilians. 
you can be against hamas. 

you can be against all of these things at the same time. 

Odd how some people don't see that.

What I want to know is, why are so many people taking so seriously the words of an aging rock star about this conflict in the first place?

it's so disheartening that we've gotten to the point in society where we'll take a celebrity's point of view at face value as fact rather than those who are experts in their field. 

I kinda wish I lived in the days gone by where scientists and philosophers and were the celebrities. When you have people ready to die for a reality show tv business man turned president, you know you've lost too many people. 

If you run across a time machine, please let me know!

Halifax2TheMax said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

roger waters is a detriment to the anti-occupation side. 

you can be against Israel's illegal occupation. 
you can be against the slaughter of innocent Israeli civilians. 
you can be against the slaughter of innocent Palestinian civilians. 
you can be against hamas. 

you can be against all of these things at the same time. 

Odd how some people don't see that.

What I want to know is, why are so many people taking so seriously the words of an aging rock star about this conflict in the first place?

I’m not sure people are. Define “so many people.” Roger strikes me as an addled rock star trying to maintain relevancy. I hadn’t heard of his positions outside of this forum and I don’t know anyone talking about him and his positions.

He’s got an opinion, so what? Now, if he starts influencing elected officials or has half a million people marching in solidarity through London, I’d be concerned.

The way I see it, most news sources print what people want to read.  That's why so many people read or listen to everything from MSNBC to NY Times to Fox News instead to Yahoo News to Facebook to AP or Reuters. I look at a lot of the former to get a picture of where people's heads are at, and the latter two to try to get closer to what is going on.  So yeah, more people are going to read what some aging rock star says.  You and I might not care or buy it, but believe me, that kind of reporting is out there big time and a lot of people get their "information" from what are mostly the more sketchy sources (and all sources of news are a least a little bit sketchy, and many a lot more so).

Aging?  He's prime time, baby.  In America we would consider him the right age for President, if only he'd been born here!  
80. The new 40.  
(Seriously, we are nearly hopeless.  Yet, I still have hope!)

I admit it, my total bad saying "aging rock star".  Let's just say "rock star", which is my main point.  I don't mind that rocks stars have opinions about current events.  Sometimes I even like it.  But I sure as heck don't take what they say as news and information worthy or form my opinions based on what someone like Waters or Young or Morello or Rock or Nugent say.  That's what I'm trying to get at with what I said.

LBCeddie

HughFreakingDillon said:

brianlux said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

roger waters is a detriment to the anti-occupation side. 

you can be against Israel's illegal occupation. 
you can be against the slaughter of innocent Israeli civilians. 
you can be against the slaughter of innocent Palestinian civilians. 
you can be against hamas. 

you can be against all of these things at the same time. 

Odd how some people don't see that.

What I want to know is, why are so many people taking so seriously the words of an aging rock star about this conflict in the first place?

it's so disheartening that we've gotten to the point in society where we'll take a celebrity's point of view at face value as fact rather than those who are experts in their field. 

I kinda wish I lived in the days gone by where scientists and philosophers and were the celebrities. When you have people ready to die for a reality show tv business man turned president, you know you've lost too many people. 

Try not to be so disheartened over things that you have no control over.  Seems like a real waste of energy, maybe focus on the things you can control in your life.  Enjoy your life, everything will be ok sir. 

HughFreakingDillon

thanks for the 'advice'. LOL

LBCeddie

HughFreakingDillon said:

thanks for the 'advice'. LOL

My pleasure, hopefully you feel better already.  Keep your head up Skipper, everything will be fine.  Turn off the news.

23scidoo

LBCeddie said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

thanks for the 'advice'. LOL

My pleasure, hopefully you feel better already.  Keep your head up Skipper, everything will be fine.  Turn off the news.

Waste of time..

HughFreakingDillon

LBCeddie said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

thanks for the 'advice'. LOL

My pleasure, hopefully you feel better already.  Keep your head up Skipper, everything will be fine.  Turn off the news.

get a life and stop trolling. I don't watch the news. My life is very enjoyable. But I don't choose to keep my head in the sand. 

HughFreakingDillon

23scidoo said:

LBCeddie said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

thanks for the 'advice'. LOL

My pleasure, hopefully you feel better already.  Keep your head up Skipper, everything will be fine.  Turn off the news.

Waste of time..

you're obsessed. 

static111

HughFreakingDillon said:

LBCeddie said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

thanks for the 'advice'. LOL

My pleasure, hopefully you feel better already.  Keep your head up Skipper, everything will be fine.  Turn off the news.

get a life and stop trolling. I don't watch the news. My life is very enjoyable. But I don't choose to keep my head in the sand. 

Keeping your head in the sand is the new enlightenment Hugh!

HughFreakingDillon

LBCeddie said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

thanks for the 'advice'. LOL

My pleasure, hopefully you feel better already.  Keep your head up Skipper, everything will be fine.  Turn off the news.

"genocidal maniac tells others to keep their head up and enjoy life"

23scidoo

HughFreakingDillon said:

23scidoo said:

LBCeddie said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

thanks for the 'advice'. LOL

My pleasure, hopefully you feel better already.  Keep your head up Skipper, everything will be fine.  Turn off the news.

Waste of time..

you're obsessed. 

Me??..hahahahahaha..you don't have a mirror in your house??..

HughFreakingDillon

23scidoo said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

23scidoo said:

LBCeddie said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

thanks for the 'advice'. LOL

My pleasure, hopefully you feel better already.  Keep your head up Skipper, everything will be fine.  Turn off the news.

Waste of time..

you're obsessed. 

Me??..hahahahahaha..you don't have a mirror in your house??..

aligning yourself with a guy who advocates for double genocide is pretty on brand. 

23scidoo

HughFreakingDillon said:

23scidoo said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

23scidoo said:

LBCeddie said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

thanks for the 'advice'. LOL

My pleasure, hopefully you feel better already.  Keep your head up Skipper, everything will be fine.  Turn off the news.

Waste of time..

you're obsessed. 

Me??..hahahahahaha..you don't have a mirror in your house??..

aligning yourself with a guy who advocates for double genocide is pretty on brand. 

static111

HughFreakingDillon said:

23scidoo said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

23scidoo said:

LBCeddie said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

thanks for the 'advice'. LOL

My pleasure, hopefully you feel better already.  Keep your head up Skipper, everything will be fine.  Turn off the news.

Waste of time..

you're obsessed. 

Me??..hahahahahaha..you don't have a mirror in your house??..

aligning yourself with a guy who advocates for double genocide is pretty on brand. 

Who is advocating for double genocide?  I missed that one?

Halifax2TheMax

For more than a month now, the war in Gaza has been dividing the world, with the deepening split aggravated by intense emotions. Two narratives, Palestinian and Israeli, have pitted demonstrators, media outlets, religions, peoples and regions against each other. In the process, the moral clarity that we should and must share about basic human values has turned into moral confusion.

So let’s start with some basic reality. The fact is that the thousands of victims across Israel, Gaza and the West Bank have been overwhelmingly civilians. On Oct. 7, Israel was wounded and deeply traumatized by the killings of more than 1,000 Israelis, including women and children, by Hamas. And since then, more than 11,000 Palestinians have been killed by the indiscriminate Israeli shelling of Gaza. Thousands of children lie dead in the rubble of Gaza’s destroyed houses, schools and hospitals. In the name of our common humanity, how can such brutal acts and murders be accepted?

Today’s human suffering and global tensions urge us to adhere to the norms of humanity before we reach a moral breaking point for all.

Leaders everywhere have the responsibility to face the full reality of this crisis, as ugly as it is. Only by anchoring ourselves to the concrete facts that have brought us to this point will we be able to change the increasingly dangerous direction of our world.

It begins by recognizing our duty not only to enforce humanitarian intervention and put an end to this atrocious war but also to admit that the current path is not a path to victory for anyone — and most definitely not a path guided by moral clarity.

I cannot but believe that Palestinians and Israelis want the same things. They are not monsters; they do not cherish misery and death. Like Israelis, Palestinians have a right to lives of dignity, security and respect, in an independent, sovereign and viable state.

Yet for almost 20 years, Israel’s unilateral actions have underminedthe peace process and flouted the Oslo accords, which promised the two-state solution of peace and security for both sides. Instead, step by step, and against international law, the Palestinian territories have been divided into small, disconnected enclaves. Israel has tripled its “settlements” on land that the accords recognized would be part of the Palestinian state. Jerusalemites have been pushed out of their homes. Muslim and Christian holy sites have been attacked and worshipers harassed. And now, 60 percent of Gaza’s besieged population of 2.3 million Palestinians has been displaced.

Gazan families being bombed out of their homes are victims of this collective punishment, with no place to take shelter. No hospital, no school and no U.N. building is safe any longer. And make no mistake, Gazans will not abandon their homes because a leaflet or a text message tells them to do so. They know that leaving means losing hope, dignity and the chance to go back to their land: They have seen it happen to waves and waves of their fellow Palestinians and to their ancestors throughout the past seven decades of this conflict.

Indeed, Israel’s “exit” from Gaza 18 years ago was not a contribution to the two-state solution but a preemption of any such solution. It produced a permanent division that denied a Palestinian state by denying a single Palestinian partner.

An Israeli leadership that is unwilling to take the path of peace on the basis of the two-state solution will not be able to provide its people the security they need.

Israelis cannot continue their lives as usual, expecting security solutions alone to ensure their safety, while Palestinians live in misery and injustice. With no political horizon, the promise of a peaceful future will evade both Israelis and Palestinians.

Are there any realistic alternatives to a two-state solution? It is hard to imagine any. A one-state solution would force Israel’s identity to accommodate competing national identities. A no-state solution would deny Palestinian rights and dignity.

If the status quo continues, the days ahead will be driven by an ongoing war of narratives over who is entitled to hate more and kill more. Sinister political agendas and ideologies will attempt to exploit religion. Extremism, vengeance and persecution will deepen not only in the region but also around the world.

What happens next will be a turning point for the entire globe. A concerted international effort to develop a regional architecture of peace, security and prosperity, built on a Palestinian-Israeli peace based on the two-state solution, is a priority.

It is up to responsible leaders to deliver results, starting now. That work will not be easy, but it is imperative. There is no victory in the carnage that has been unfolding. No one will prevail unless the Palestinians are given their rights and their state. Only this will be a true victory for peace, for Palestinians and for Israelis alike. And that, more than anything, would be a victory for our common humanity.

mickeyrat

Halifax2TheMax said:

For more than a month now, the war in Gaza has been dividing the world, with the deepening split aggravated by intense emotions. Two narratives, Palestinian and Israeli, have pitted demonstrators, media outlets, religions, peoples and regions against each other. In the process, the moral clarity that we should and must share about basic human values has turned into moral confusion.

So let’s start with some basic reality. The fact is that the thousands of victims across Israel, Gaza and the West Bank have been overwhelmingly civilians. On Oct. 7, Israel was wounded and deeply traumatized by the killings of more than 1,000 Israelis, including women and children, by Hamas. And since then, more than 11,000 Palestinians have been killed by the indiscriminate Israeli shelling of Gaza. Thousands of children lie dead in the rubble of Gaza’s destroyed houses, schools and hospitals. In the name of our common humanity, how can such brutal acts and murders be accepted?

Today’s human suffering and global tensions urge us to adhere to the norms of humanity before we reach a moral breaking point for all.

Leaders everywhere have the responsibility to face the full reality of this crisis, as ugly as it is. Only by anchoring ourselves to the concrete facts that have brought us to this point will we be able to change the increasingly dangerous direction of our world.

It begins by recognizing our duty not only to enforce humanitarian intervention and put an end to this atrocious war but also to admit that the current path is not a path to victory for anyone — and most definitely not a path guided by moral clarity.

I cannot but believe that Palestinians and Israelis want the same things. They are not monsters; they do not cherish misery and death. Like Israelis, Palestinians have a right to lives of dignity, security and respect, in an independent, sovereign and viable state.

Yet for almost 20 years, Israel’s unilateral actions have underminedthe peace process and flouted the Oslo accords, which promised the two-state solution of peace and security for both sides. Instead, step by step, and against international law, the Palestinian territories have been divided into small, disconnected enclaves. Israel has tripled its “settlements” on land that the accords recognized would be part of the Palestinian state. Jerusalemites have been pushed out of their homes. Muslim and Christian holy sites have been attacked and worshipers harassed. And now, 60 percent of Gaza’s besieged population of 2.3 million Palestinians has been displaced.

Gazan families being bombed out of their homes are victims of this collective punishment, with no place to take shelter. No hospital, no school and no U.N. building is safe any longer. And make no mistake, Gazans will not abandon their homes because a leaflet or a text message tells them to do so. They know that leaving means losing hope, dignity and the chance to go back to their land: They have seen it happen to waves and waves of their fellow Palestinians and to their ancestors throughout the past seven decades of this conflict.

Indeed, Israel’s “exit” from Gaza 18 years ago was not a contribution to the two-state solution but a preemption of any such solution. It produced a permanent division that denied a Palestinian state by denying a single Palestinian partner.

An Israeli leadership that is unwilling to take the path of peace on the basis of the two-state solution will not be able to provide its people the security they need.

Israelis cannot continue their lives as usual, expecting security solutions alone to ensure their safety, while Palestinians live in misery and injustice. With no political horizon, the promise of a peaceful future will evade both Israelis and Palestinians.

Are there any realistic alternatives to a two-state solution? It is hard to imagine any. A one-state solution would force Israel’s identity to accommodate competing national identities. A no-state solution would deny Palestinian rights and dignity.

If the status quo continues, the days ahead will be driven by an ongoing war of narratives over who is entitled to hate more and kill more. Sinister political agendas and ideologies will attempt to exploit religion. Extremism, vengeance and persecution will deepen not only in the region but also around the world.

What happens next will be a turning point for the entire globe. A concerted international effort to develop a regional architecture of peace, security and prosperity, built on a Palestinian-Israeli peace based on the two-state solution, is a priority.

It is up to responsible leaders to deliver results, starting now. That work will not be easy, but it is imperative. There is no victory in the carnage that has been unfolding. No one will prevail unless the Palestinians are given their rights and their state. Only this will be a true victory for peace, for Palestinians and for Israelis alike. And that, more than anything, would be a victory for our common humanity.

just ran across this and was coming here to post.

gift op-ed

https://wapo.st/3u7DbCc 

 Opinion | King of Jordan: A two-state solution would be a victory for our common humanity
Opinion by King Abdullah II

Halifax2TheMax

mickeyrat said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

For more than a month now, the war in Gaza has been dividing the world, with the deepening split aggravated by intense emotions. Two narratives, Palestinian and Israeli, have pitted demonstrators, media outlets, religions, peoples and regions against each other. In the process, the moral clarity that we should and must share about basic human values has turned into moral confusion.

So let’s start with some basic reality. The fact is that the thousands of victims across Israel, Gaza and the West Bank have been overwhelmingly civilians. On Oct. 7, Israel was wounded and deeply traumatized by the killings of more than 1,000 Israelis, including women and children, by Hamas. And since then, more than 11,000 Palestinians have been killed by the indiscriminate Israeli shelling of Gaza. Thousands of children lie dead in the rubble of Gaza’s destroyed houses, schools and hospitals. In the name of our common humanity, how can such brutal acts and murders be accepted?

Today’s human suffering and global tensions urge us to adhere to the norms of humanity before we reach a moral breaking point for all.

Leaders everywhere have the responsibility to face the full reality of this crisis, as ugly as it is. Only by anchoring ourselves to the concrete facts that have brought us to this point will we be able to change the increasingly dangerous direction of our world.

It begins by recognizing our duty not only to enforce humanitarian intervention and put an end to this atrocious war but also to admit that the current path is not a path to victory for anyone — and most definitely not a path guided by moral clarity.

I cannot but believe that Palestinians and Israelis want the same things. They are not monsters; they do not cherish misery and death. Like Israelis, Palestinians have a right to lives of dignity, security and respect, in an independent, sovereign and viable state.

Yet for almost 20 years, Israel’s unilateral actions have underminedthe peace process and flouted the Oslo accords, which promised the two-state solution of peace and security for both sides. Instead, step by step, and against international law, the Palestinian territories have been divided into small, disconnected enclaves. Israel has tripled its “settlements” on land that the accords recognized would be part of the Palestinian state. Jerusalemites have been pushed out of their homes. Muslim and Christian holy sites have been attacked and worshipers harassed. And now, 60 percent of Gaza’s besieged population of 2.3 million Palestinians has been displaced.

Gazan families being bombed out of their homes are victims of this collective punishment, with no place to take shelter. No hospital, no school and no U.N. building is safe any longer. And make no mistake, Gazans will not abandon their homes because a leaflet or a text message tells them to do so. They know that leaving means losing hope, dignity and the chance to go back to their land: They have seen it happen to waves and waves of their fellow Palestinians and to their ancestors throughout the past seven decades of this conflict.

Indeed, Israel’s “exit” from Gaza 18 years ago was not a contribution to the two-state solution but a preemption of any such solution. It produced a permanent division that denied a Palestinian state by denying a single Palestinian partner.

An Israeli leadership that is unwilling to take the path of peace on the basis of the two-state solution will not be able to provide its people the security they need.

Israelis cannot continue their lives as usual, expecting security solutions alone to ensure their safety, while Palestinians live in misery and injustice. With no political horizon, the promise of a peaceful future will evade both Israelis and Palestinians.

Are there any realistic alternatives to a two-state solution? It is hard to imagine any. A one-state solution would force Israel’s identity to accommodate competing national identities. A no-state solution would deny Palestinian rights and dignity.

If the status quo continues, the days ahead will be driven by an ongoing war of narratives over who is entitled to hate more and kill more. Sinister political agendas and ideologies will attempt to exploit religion. Extremism, vengeance and persecution will deepen not only in the region but also around the world.

What happens next will be a turning point for the entire globe. A concerted international effort to develop a regional architecture of peace, security and prosperity, built on a Palestinian-Israeli peace based on the two-state solution, is a priority.

It is up to responsible leaders to deliver results, starting now. That work will not be easy, but it is imperative. There is no victory in the carnage that has been unfolding. No one will prevail unless the Palestinians are given their rights and their state. Only this will be a true victory for peace, for Palestinians and for Israelis alike. And that, more than anything, would be a victory for our common humanity.

just ran across this and was coming here to post.

gift op-ed

https://wapo.st/3u7DbCc 

 Opinion | King of Jordan: A two-state solution would be a victory for our common humanity
Opinion by King Abdullah II

I purposely left off the headline and source to see if readers could remain objective.