Iran Deal, the reset..... and halt

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  • dignin
    dignin Posts: 9,478
    edited January 2020
    mcgruff10 said:
    dignin said:
    gimmesometruth27 said:
    if trump did this at the behest of gop senators, who are the jury in the impeachment trial, i would argue this is another quid pro quo and impeachable in and of itself. abuse of power.



    http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/01/report-trump-cited-impeachment-pressure-to-kill-soleimani.html
    Didn’t Clinton make the same play in ‘98?  I can’t rememer the damn country he bombed. Somewhere in Africa maybe?  (Disclaimer: Not deflecting, honest question.  Clinton is the best president I have lived through.)
    Think it was Serbia in 99. But as far as I know he never went around stupidly bragging about how he did it to help him sway senators in his impeachment trial.

    Trump is so dumb.

    Edit: Looks like it was actually Iraq.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-clinton-both-launched-iraq-airstrikes-during-impeachment-2020-1
    Post edited by dignin on
  • mcgruff10
    mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 29,111
    Exc
    dignin said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    dignin said:
    gimmesometruth27 said:
    if trump did this at the behest of gop senators, who are the jury in the impeachment trial, i would argue this is another quid pro quo and impeachable in and of itself. abuse of power.



    http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/01/report-trump-cited-impeachment-pressure-to-kill-soleimani.html
    Didn’t Clinton make the same play in ‘98?  I can’t rememer the damn country he bombed. Somewhere in Africa maybe?  (Disclaimer: Not deflecting, honest question.  Clinton is the best president I have lived through.)
    Think it was Serbia in 99. But as far as I know he never went around stupidly bragging about how he did it to help him sway senators in his impeachment trial.

    Trump is so dumb.

    Edit: Looks like it was actually Iraq.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-clinton-both-launched-iraq-airstrikes-during-impeachment-2020-1
    Excellent find. Thank you.
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,298
    small distinction but Trump has already been impeached. Clinton ordered this amidst his inquiry before impeachment.


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  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 41,979
    dignin said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    dignin said:
    gimmesometruth27 said:
    if trump did this at the behest of gop senators, who are the jury in the impeachment trial, i would argue this is another quid pro quo and impeachable in and of itself. abuse of power.



    http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/01/report-trump-cited-impeachment-pressure-to-kill-soleimani.html
    Didn’t Clinton make the same play in ‘98?  I can’t rememer the damn country he bombed. Somewhere in Africa maybe?  (Disclaimer: Not deflecting, honest question.  Clinton is the best president I have lived through.)
    Think it was Serbia in 99. But as far as I know he never went around stupidly bragging about how he did it to help him sway senators in his impeachment trial.

    Trump is so dumb.

    Edit: Looks like it was actually Iraq.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-clinton-both-launched-iraq-airstrikes-during-impeachment-2020-1
    I think the “wag the dog” deflect from impeachment air strikes were an empty, but for the security guard, pharmaceutical plant in Sudan, that bin Laden allegedly invested in or something like that. But I could be confused.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 41,979
    tempo_n_groove said:
    mickeyrat said:
    tempo_n_groove said:
    mrussel1 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    benjs said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    1ThoughtKnown said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    josevolution said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    I wonder.....if after Obama had Bin Laden killed.......what if the US experienced another 9/11 level event as a result? or some type of accident as a result of the heightened tensions/paranoia? would you all have blamed obama? or the ones who perpetrated the attack/made the mistake?

    I can take a wild guess. 
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    I wonder.....if after Obama had Bin Laden killed.......what if the US experienced another 9/11 level event as a result? or some type of accident as a result of the heightened tensions/paranoia? would you all have blamed obama? or the ones who perpetrated the attack/made the mistake?

    I can take a wild guess. 
    I’m not sure since nothing really happened by the killing of binladen was there any retaliation by anyone? I’m blaming the Baffoon’s actions for this mess! He always talks about bringing troops home yet by his decision to kill the general we had to send troops back into harms way! How is that sensible ...If you want peace you have to offer peaceful solutions period ...
    i agree 100% that trump started this mess. there is no denying that. 
    Wow. That was all I was saying in the beginning. He started this mess and is to blame. And it was a leap. 

    I could see your side if the plane was inbound, but it was an outbound plane.  If in fact Iran did accidentally shoot an outbound plane down then that is a 100% on them and no one else.  
    My understanding of the device which launched the missile, is that it's a mobile device, that can be deployed to specific areas as needed. Say, near an airport if another country threatens to indiscriminately drop bombs on cultural sites if a retaliatory force was used for the assassination of a major military icon. 

    Obviously Iran is accountable for this, but to claim that this hasn't been catalyzed recklessly by this recent bout of American intervention, is really disregarding the obligation a POTUS has - of thinking beyond the impact that may occur in 24 hours. 
    I get trying to anticipate collateral impact, but I'd disagree that any imaginable outcome is within scope. "They might blow a commercial airplane departing from their own airport out of the sky despite no offensive measures taking place" is way beyond that to me.

    Mrussel's post is interesting because I love Reason and respect the hell out of Robby Soave, but I disagree with his point.
    I think of a quote from Donald Rumsfeld, who was a POS in my mind, but an interesting figure nonetheless.  because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know.

    With this strategic folly, Iraq voting to kick us should have been a known known.  Whereas the plane is a known unknown.  There had to be expected consequences or effects, but the specifics could not be anticipated.  Robby's point is right, in my mind.  When nations go to war, you have to expect collateral damage.  You don't know what it is, but it's coming.  In that respect, we have accountability, considering we struck first.  The paper attack on the embassy was not 1979, so I don't buy our assassination as a counter to an act of war.   
    I think part of the challenge here is that the vast majority of us think Trump shouldn't have made the decision that he did.

    Is it safe to assume we all feel Obama made the right call in giving the go-ahead to take out bin Laden? If al-Qaeda had purposefully or erroneously bombed a civilian passenger airplane while retaliating, would the US bear some responsibility? Or would we be ok laying that solely at the feet of al-Qaeda?
    There's a big difference, to me, because the strike on bin Laden was a retalitory strike on an individual who had planned and executed a very specific attack on our citizens.  Should the roles have been reversed, and the chronology was:  Iran fires missiles at our barracks ->we take out the general->Iran shoots down the airline, I would not be critical of Trump.  There is an obligation to defend ourselves, obviously.  But the justification was somewhere between razor thin and non-existent for our first strike.  That's why I agree with the Reason article.  
    @HughFreakingDillon not when you asked apparently.  I don't recall that yesterday, but htere was a boat load of traffic.  Here above. 

    RIP - Neil Peart. 
    Neil Peart died?!?WTF!?!
    Jan 7. Glioblastoma. 3 1/2 yr fight...
    Damn... Unlike Buck, I love everybody.  Well maybe not halifax, so almost everybody...

    Yeah maybe Halifax too, what the hell...
    Is that like me saying, “honored, not honored?”
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • mcgruff10
    mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 29,111
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    dignin said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    dignin said:
    gimmesometruth27 said:
    if trump did this at the behest of gop senators, who are the jury in the impeachment trial, i would argue this is another quid pro quo and impeachable in and of itself. abuse of power.



    http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/01/report-trump-cited-impeachment-pressure-to-kill-soleimani.html
    Didn’t Clinton make the same play in ‘98?  I can’t rememer the damn country he bombed. Somewhere in Africa maybe?  (Disclaimer: Not deflecting, honest question.  Clinton is the best president I have lived through.)
    Think it was Serbia in 99. But as far as I know he never went around stupidly bragging about how he did it to help him sway senators in his impeachment trial.

    Trump is so dumb.

    Edit: Looks like it was actually Iraq.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-clinton-both-launched-iraq-airstrikes-during-impeachment-2020-1
    I think the “wag the dog” deflect from impeachment air strikes were an empty, but for the security guard, pharmaceutical plant in Sudan, that bin Laden allegedly invested in or something like that. But I could be confused.
    Didn’t turn out to be a baby formula plant?
    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 41,979
    mcgruff10 said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    dignin said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    dignin said:
    gimmesometruth27 said:
    if trump did this at the behest of gop senators, who are the jury in the impeachment trial, i would argue this is another quid pro quo and impeachable in and of itself. abuse of power.



    http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/01/report-trump-cited-impeachment-pressure-to-kill-soleimani.html
    Didn’t Clinton make the same play in ‘98?  I can’t rememer the damn country he bombed. Somewhere in Africa maybe?  (Disclaimer: Not deflecting, honest question.  Clinton is the best president I have lived through.)
    Think it was Serbia in 99. But as far as I know he never went around stupidly bragging about how he did it to help him sway senators in his impeachment trial.

    Trump is so dumb.

    Edit: Looks like it was actually Iraq.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-clinton-both-launched-iraq-airstrikes-during-impeachment-2020-1
    I think the “wag the dog” deflect from impeachment air strikes were an empty, but for the security guard, pharmaceutical plant in Sudan, that bin Laden allegedly invested in or something like that. But I could be confused.
    Didn’t turn out to be a baby formula plant?
    Maybe or maybe it was both? No time to google now.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • mcgruff10
    mcgruff10 New Jersey Posts: 29,111
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    dignin said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    dignin said:
    gimmesometruth27 said:
    if trump did this at the behest of gop senators, who are the jury in the impeachment trial, i would argue this is another quid pro quo and impeachable in and of itself. abuse of power.



    http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/01/report-trump-cited-impeachment-pressure-to-kill-soleimani.html
    Didn’t Clinton make the same play in ‘98?  I can’t rememer the damn country he bombed. Somewhere in Africa maybe?  (Disclaimer: Not deflecting, honest question.  Clinton is the best president I have lived through.)
    Think it was Serbia in 99. But as far as I know he never went around stupidly bragging about how he did it to help him sway senators in his impeachment trial.

    Trump is so dumb.

    Edit: Looks like it was actually Iraq.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-clinton-both-launched-iraq-airstrikes-during-impeachment-2020-1
    I think the “wag the dog” deflect from impeachment air strikes were an empty, but for the security guard, pharmaceutical plant in Sudan, that bin Laden allegedly invested in or something like that. But I could be confused.
    Didn’t turn out to be a baby formula plant?
    Maybe or maybe it was both? No time to google now.
    Just looked it up, you were right.    Pharmaceutical plant.  

    I'll ride the wave where it takes me......
  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,449
    mrussel1 said:
    For the record, Trump has killed more people with drones in the first year of his presidency than Obama did in his whole 8 years.  http://www.ronpaullibertyreport.com/archives/trump-has-killed-more-civilians-with-illegal-drone-strikes-in-9-months-than-obama-did-in-8-years  Not trying to contradict you for the sake of it, but don't want people walking around with bad info that I hear in more than a few places. 

    But I agree with your overall assessment.  Obama did not make all the right calls militarily.  There were massive mistakes in Libya for sure.  At the same time, I generally feel like he was deliberate and thoughtful about his very, very tough decisions.  Trump strikes me as impulsive, lacking a moral center, lacking empathy, and generally devoid of any guiding principle other than his own personal benefit.  Being president is hard.  Wielding decisions concerning life and death are stressful to any normal human being.  I'm empathetic to such difficult choices that one has to make.  It's just that from a strategic standpoint, I was very critical of the decision that night, as I"m sure you know.  And add to it the collateral damage, and that's where I'm coming from.  And where are we now?  Trump says he wants to start negotiating for de-nuking.  What in the fuckity fuck?  He blows up long term policies, tries to put them back to precisely how they were, and claims victory.  It's really upsetting.  
    oh my god i had no idea. thank you for setting me straight. i honestly had no idea. how is this not being reported in MSM? to me it's simply outrageous that we have gotten to a point where collateral damage is just part of the gig now. our soldiers lives are more important than those of civilians? these people didn't sign up for this. it should be considered a war crime as far as i'm concerned. 
    Hugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall




  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,449
    mickeyrat said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    mickeyrat said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    1ThoughtKnown said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    1ThoughtKnown said:
    cincybearcat said:
    1ThoughtKnown said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    josevolution said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    I wonder.....if after Obama had Bin Laden killed.......what if the US experienced another 9/11 level event as a result? or some type of accident as a result of the heightened tensions/paranoia? would you all have blamed obama? or the ones who perpetrated the attack/made the mistake?

    I can take a wild guess. 
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    I wonder.....if after Obama had Bin Laden killed.......what if the US experienced another 9/11 level event as a result? or some type of accident as a result of the heightened tensions/paranoia? would you all have blamed obama? or the ones who perpetrated the attack/made the mistake?

    I can take a wild guess. 
    I’m not sure since nothing really happened by the killing of binladen was there any retaliation by anyone? I’m blaming the Baffoon’s actions for this mess! He always talks about bringing troops home yet by his decision to kill the general we had to send troops back into harms way! How is that sensible ...If you want peace you have to offer peaceful solutions period ...
    i agree 100% that trump started this mess. there is no denying that. 
    Wow. That was all I was saying in the beginning. He started this mess and is to blame. And it was a leap. 

    Is Iran to blame at all? 

    Trump first escalated this mess for sure, owns some responsibility but a small amount for this specific incident (in my opinion).  
    I just don’t know... Trump attacked a foreigner on foreign soil.  Is that Iran’s fault? Soldiers “trigger happy” because they don’t know what he will do next? Is that Iran’s fault... not so sure. 
    Im convinced it’s Trumps mess. The whole thing is self-preservation. He doesn’t care about anything but winning.  The nation, NATO allies, soldiers lives, innocent civilians lives... none of it matters to him. 
    I have no doubt he attacked just to secure Republican Senate votes to avoid getting turfed from that earlier post. Makes perfect sense really, he wouldn’t have any reason to do it otherwise. Think about it, it came out of nowhere! 


    this I would imagine most of us agree on. 
    Fair enough. Sorry for getting too fired up. I’m really frightened and pissed off. I went back to my visit to Birkenau after the Krakow show last year and the feeling of dread I had that everything I value and treasure is being led by the village idiot who is in the back pocket of pure evil (Putin).
    Also, I cannot put into words the grief I feel for your friend. I am holding back tears as I type this... it should never have happened and I hold Trump 100% responsible.  It’s of little solace to you and your friend I know, but he has to be stopped or there will be more.... many more. 
    The War Pigs are circling him... and it’s worrisome 
    it was thought by many that this would be the year trump would try to start something, depending how impeachment and his poll numbers went. it was to be completely expected. but I don't think we need to build the bunker just yet. I went crazy when he was first elected, thinking this was going to be the end of the planet as we know it. it seems some have gone back to that fear based thinking. Do I have confidence in the checks and balances of the US government to reign in the POTUS? not anymore. But while I think he's a self-service POS, I don't think he's going to bring us WW3. 

    But I do have confidence in other world leaders to not jump on board with his bullshit. I know Trudeau won't, anyway. 
    have seen reporting from  wsj article trump told aides he did this to curry senate favor during impeachment.......
    FAKE NEWS
    wsj is owned by murdoch......
    sorry mickey, i thought you'd know i was being sarcastic. 
    Hugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall




  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,449
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    benjs said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    1ThoughtKnown said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    josevolution said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    I wonder.....if after Obama had Bin Laden killed.......what if the US experienced another 9/11 level event as a result? or some type of accident as a result of the heightened tensions/paranoia? would you all have blamed obama? or the ones who perpetrated the attack/made the mistake?

    I can take a wild guess. 
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    I wonder.....if after Obama had Bin Laden killed.......what if the US experienced another 9/11 level event as a result? or some type of accident as a result of the heightened tensions/paranoia? would you all have blamed obama? or the ones who perpetrated the attack/made the mistake?

    I can take a wild guess. 
    I’m not sure since nothing really happened by the killing of binladen was there any retaliation by anyone? I’m blaming the Baffoon’s actions for this mess! He always talks about bringing troops home yet by his decision to kill the general we had to send troops back into harms way! How is that sensible ...If you want peace you have to offer peaceful solutions period ...
    i agree 100% that trump started this mess. there is no denying that. 
    Wow. That was all I was saying in the beginning. He started this mess and is to blame. And it was a leap. 

    I could see your side if the plane was inbound, but it was an outbound plane.  If in fact Iran did accidentally shoot an outbound plane down then that is a 100% on them and no one else.  
    My understanding of the device which launched the missile, is that it's a mobile device, that can be deployed to specific areas as needed. Say, near an airport if another country threatens to indiscriminately drop bombs on cultural sites if a retaliatory force was used for the assassination of a major military icon. 

    Obviously Iran is accountable for this, but to claim that this hasn't been catalyzed recklessly by this recent bout of American intervention, is really disregarding the obligation a POTUS has - of thinking beyond the impact that may occur in 24 hours. 
    I get trying to anticipate collateral impact, but I'd disagree that any imaginable outcome is within scope. "They might blow a commercial airplane departing from their own airport out of the sky despite no offensive measures taking place" is way beyond that to me.

    Mrussel's post is interesting because I love Reason and respect the hell out of Robby Soave, but I disagree with his point.
    I think of a quote from Donald Rumsfeld, who was a POS in my mind, but an interesting figure nonetheless.  because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know.

    With this strategic folly, Iraq voting to kick us should have been a known known.  Whereas the plane is a known unknown.  There had to be expected consequences or effects, but the specifics could not be anticipated.  Robby's point is right, in my mind.  When nations go to war, you have to expect collateral damage.  You don't know what it is, but it's coming.  In that respect, we have accountability, considering we struck first.  The paper attack on the embassy was not 1979, so I don't buy our assassination as a counter to an act of war.   
    I think part of the challenge here is that the vast majority of us think Trump shouldn't have made the decision that he did.

    Is it safe to assume we all feel Obama made the right call in giving the go-ahead to take out bin Laden? If al-Qaeda had purposefully or erroneously bombed a civilian passenger airplane while retaliating, would the US bear some responsibility? Or would we be ok laying that solely at the feet of al-Qaeda?
    i asked this exact same question and *crickets*. 
    The two are not comparable.
    if this general was as evil as everyone is making him out to be, having killed hundreds of americans, how is that not comparable? I find that HIGHLY comparable. 
    One major difference, one was the leader of a nationless terrorist organization and the other was the number 2 “leader” of a sovereign nation. Believe it or not, there are rules of engagement for war and how nations treat one another. What Team Trump Treason did was tell anyone not happy with a country’s leadership, that it’s ok to drone strike them at an airport in a third party country.

    Obama surely asked detailed and pertinent questions regarding risk, both immediate and 10 steps down the line. He analyzed and considered the potential ramifications. Team Trump Treason? Not so much. There should be a House investigation regarding the “imminent” threat justification and someone should ask those informing Team Trump Treason of the opportunity, what questions he asked during the deliberations.

    Darth Cheney and Rumsfeld are responsible for hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis. Are you okay with them being drone striked in London or Paris or Denver?
    as i have repeatedly said, i am against all murder, no matter who it is. you obviously know the answer to this ridiculous question. 
    Hugh Freaking Dillon is currently out of the office, returning sometime in the fall




  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 41,979
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    Halifax2TheMax said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    pjl44 said:
    mrussel1 said:
    pjl44 said:
    benjs said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    1ThoughtKnown said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    josevolution said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    I wonder.....if after Obama had Bin Laden killed.......what if the US experienced another 9/11 level event as a result? or some type of accident as a result of the heightened tensions/paranoia? would you all have blamed obama? or the ones who perpetrated the attack/made the mistake?

    I can take a wild guess. 
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    I wonder.....if after Obama had Bin Laden killed.......what if the US experienced another 9/11 level event as a result? or some type of accident as a result of the heightened tensions/paranoia? would you all have blamed obama? or the ones who perpetrated the attack/made the mistake?

    I can take a wild guess. 
    I’m not sure since nothing really happened by the killing of binladen was there any retaliation by anyone? I’m blaming the Baffoon’s actions for this mess! He always talks about bringing troops home yet by his decision to kill the general we had to send troops back into harms way! How is that sensible ...If you want peace you have to offer peaceful solutions period ...
    i agree 100% that trump started this mess. there is no denying that. 
    Wow. That was all I was saying in the beginning. He started this mess and is to blame. And it was a leap. 

    I could see your side if the plane was inbound, but it was an outbound plane.  If in fact Iran did accidentally shoot an outbound plane down then that is a 100% on them and no one else.  
    My understanding of the device which launched the missile, is that it's a mobile device, that can be deployed to specific areas as needed. Say, near an airport if another country threatens to indiscriminately drop bombs on cultural sites if a retaliatory force was used for the assassination of a major military icon. 

    Obviously Iran is accountable for this, but to claim that this hasn't been catalyzed recklessly by this recent bout of American intervention, is really disregarding the obligation a POTUS has - of thinking beyond the impact that may occur in 24 hours. 
    I get trying to anticipate collateral impact, but I'd disagree that any imaginable outcome is within scope. "They might blow a commercial airplane departing from their own airport out of the sky despite no offensive measures taking place" is way beyond that to me.

    Mrussel's post is interesting because I love Reason and respect the hell out of Robby Soave, but I disagree with his point.
    I think of a quote from Donald Rumsfeld, who was a POS in my mind, but an interesting figure nonetheless.  because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns—the ones we don't know we don't know.

    With this strategic folly, Iraq voting to kick us should have been a known known.  Whereas the plane is a known unknown.  There had to be expected consequences or effects, but the specifics could not be anticipated.  Robby's point is right, in my mind.  When nations go to war, you have to expect collateral damage.  You don't know what it is, but it's coming.  In that respect, we have accountability, considering we struck first.  The paper attack on the embassy was not 1979, so I don't buy our assassination as a counter to an act of war.   
    I think part of the challenge here is that the vast majority of us think Trump shouldn't have made the decision that he did.

    Is it safe to assume we all feel Obama made the right call in giving the go-ahead to take out bin Laden? If al-Qaeda had purposefully or erroneously bombed a civilian passenger airplane while retaliating, would the US bear some responsibility? Or would we be ok laying that solely at the feet of al-Qaeda?
    i asked this exact same question and *crickets*. 
    The two are not comparable.
    if this general was as evil as everyone is making him out to be, having killed hundreds of americans, how is that not comparable? I find that HIGHLY comparable. 
    One major difference, one was the leader of a nationless terrorist organization and the other was the number 2 “leader” of a sovereign nation. Believe it or not, there are rules of engagement for war and how nations treat one another. What Team Trump Treason did was tell anyone not happy with a country’s leadership, that it’s ok to drone strike them at an airport in a third party country.

    Obama surely asked detailed and pertinent questions regarding risk, both immediate and 10 steps down the line. He analyzed and considered the potential ramifications. Team Trump Treason? Not so much. There should be a House investigation regarding the “imminent” threat justification and someone should ask those informing Team Trump Treason of the opportunity, what questions he asked during the deliberations.

    Darth Cheney and Rumsfeld are responsible for hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis. Are you okay with them being drone striked in London or Paris or Denver?
    as i have repeatedly said, i am against all murder, no matter who it is. you obviously know the answer to this ridiculous question. 
    And yet you compared the two, basically saying that because Soleimani was responsible for hundreds of deaths, he’s in the same camp as bin Laden and thus Obama is in the same camp as Team Trump Treason. I explained to you why I believe that’s a false equivalency. Then you frame it as a ridiculous question. Makes sense.
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

    Libtardaplorable©. And proud of it.

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  • tempo_n_groove
    tempo_n_groove Posts: 41,336
    Iran admits to accidentally shooting down airliner.


  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,298
    shame. I do appreciate it being copped to.....

    82 Iranians, 57 Canadians, 11 Ukrainians
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,652
    All the politicians makin' crazy sounds
    All the dead bodies piles up in mounds
    And, I guess I just don't know.
    -Lou Reed
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni











  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,652
    gimmesometruth27 said:
    trump is giving americans PTSD. i shit you not.

    I would not have thought of it that way, gimme, but after the conversation I had with a good friend earlier this evening, I get it.  This lady friend and my wife and I had a nice dinner and afterwards started out with a pleasant conversation that soon enough, seemingly of its own accord, turned to talking about Trump. 

    It started when I began to leaf through a very nice photo book about Obama and I said, "Oh my god, look at these great pictures."  The images reflected pride, intelligence, joy, concern, hope, conviction, and the people looked like people you would like to meet. 

    But then one of us mentioned Trump and the heaviness descended like a wet blanket in a damp dark fog.  Body language and faces sagged, and we felt worried, unhappy, disillusioned, sad, angry, frustrated.  It was all there- the horrid reality of what has become of so much of America.  We all talked about how this hits us everyday.  Every damn day. 

    And there was one word from this friend was one I had never heard her utter about another person:  "hate".  And we were in agreement.

    It was really hard to end the evening on a more upbeat note.

    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni











  • Spiritual_Chaos
    Spiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,444
    mcgruff10 said:
    1ThoughtKnown said:
    mcgruff10 said:
    1ThoughtKnown said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    josevolution said:
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    I wonder.....if after Obama had Bin Laden killed.......what if the US experienced another 9/11 level event as a result? or some type of accident as a result of the heightened tensions/paranoia? would you all have blamed obama? or the ones who perpetrated the attack/made the mistake?

    I can take a wild guess. 
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    I wonder.....if after Obama had Bin Laden killed.......what if the US experienced another 9/11 level event as a result? or some type of accident as a result of the heightened tensions/paranoia? would you all have blamed obama? or the ones who perpetrated the attack/made the mistake?

    I can take a wild guess. 
    I’m not sure since nothing really happened by the killing of binladen was there any retaliation by anyone? I’m blaming the Baffoon’s actions for this mess! He always talks about bringing troops home yet by his decision to kill the general we had to send troops back into harms way! How is that sensible ...If you want peace you have to offer peaceful solutions period ...
    i agree 100% that trump started this mess. there is no denying that. 
    Wow. That was all I was saying in the beginning. He started this mess and is to blame. And it was a leap. 

    I could see your side if the plane was inbound, but it was an outbound plane.  If in fact Iran did accidentally shoot an outbound plane down then that is a 100% on them and no one else.  
     None of it would have happened had Trump not ordered a hit like some deranged mob boss on an Iranian official to secure votes in the Senate to save his ass from getting turfed. 
    Hopefully you vote with your conscience bud. I don’t think I could possibly despise a human being more than that scumbag Trump. He is an embarrassment, and as a US citizen you should know the entire world laughs at this twit. 
    But unfortunately it’s not funny anymore. His recklessness is costing lives.  It’s real now.. and he’s gotta go before the damage is unrepairable. 
    I'm not a trump fan at all but I do try to give credit where credit is due and place blame on the guilty party.  I didn't vote for him last election and will not in the next one either.  (fingers crossed sanders or warren don't get the nom, then I am going third party.)
    lol
    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • Spiritual_Chaos
    Spiritual_Chaos Posts: 31,444
    edited January 2020
    Trump supporters are no longer allowed to use several huge porn subreddits, according to one moderator who's had enough of their bullshit.

    "Trump supporters are now banned, permanently," wrote a moderator for several big porn subreddits who goes by u/luxlutheran. "This rule comes courtesy of the war he just started to cover up his crimes at home. Now every single lying, traitorous, cowardly fascist that supports him isn't just a disgusting human being—now they're murderers too."
    https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/wxe5xz/escalating-tensions-with-iran-leads-porn-subreddit-mod-to-ban-republicans?utm_source=reddit.com

    "Mostly I think that people react sensitively because they know you’ve got a point"
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,809
    tempo_n_groove said:
    Iran admits to accidentally shooting down airliner.


    After of course saying it couldn’t have happened and couldn’t have been them.  Just like trump, we can believe a word they say.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • josevolution
    josevolution Posts: 31,535
    HughFreakingDillon said:
    mrussel1 said:
    For the record, Trump has killed more people with drones in the first year of his presidency than Obama did in his whole 8 years.  http://www.ronpaullibertyreport.com/archives/trump-has-killed-more-civilians-with-illegal-drone-strikes-in-9-months-than-obama-did-in-8-years  Not trying to contradict you for the sake of it, but don't want people walking around with bad info that I hear in more than a few places. 

    But I agree with your overall assessment.  Obama did not make all the right calls militarily.  There were massive mistakes in Libya for sure.  At the same time, I generally feel like he was deliberate and thoughtful about his very, very tough decisions.  Trump strikes me as impulsive, lacking a moral center, lacking empathy, and generally devoid of any guiding principle other than his own personal benefit.  Being president is hard.  Wielding decisions concerning life and death are stressful to any normal human being.  I'm empathetic to such difficult choices that one has to make.  It's just that from a strategic standpoint, I was very critical of the decision that night, as I"m sure you know.  And add to it the collateral damage, and that's where I'm coming from.  And where are we now?  Trump says he wants to start negotiating for de-nuking.  What in the fuckity fuck?  He blows up long term policies, tries to put them back to precisely how they were, and claims victory.  It's really upsetting.  
    oh my god i had no idea. thank you for setting me straight. i honestly had no idea. how is this not being reported in MSM? to me it's simply outrageous that we have gotten to a point where collateral damage is just part of the gig now. our soldiers lives are more important than those of civilians? these people didn't sign up for this. it should be considered a war crime as far as i'm concerned. 
    I agree 100%
    jesus greets me looks just like me ....

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