"When I, as a Palestinian, explain Zionism, I always explain that it came out of the insane nationalism and nation-state formation, along with colonialism, from Europe."
That's your problem right there Fuck. That is just wrong, wrong, wrong.
I don't know, BS. It's true that Fuck and I at times obviously don't share a great love for each other and also at times we've clashed here massively, but what he said as a whole in the post you quote from seems to me pretty damn thought-provoking and obviously really well thought out. This for example:
At the end of the day, you have to understand these political contexts because the grievance of these violent extremists IS political, NOT religious. They coat them in religious terms - of course - but it's political at the end of the day.
That's a bold statement, very much worth looking at. Hell, the whole post gave me a lot to think about. And you just write it off as "wrong, wrong, wrong" ?
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
meanwhile in the real world.......how long do you think these fuckwad's will get away with this shit ? it's time to quit pussy footin around and nuke the dumb-ass's.
Godfather.
Japan's prime minister said Sunday he was "speechless" after an online video purportedly showed an Islamic State militant killing one of the two Japanese hostages.
Shinzo Abe told Japanese broadcaster NHK the government is still reviewing the video, but it was likely authentic. Abe offered his condolences to the family and friends of 42-year-old Haruna Yukawa, who was taken hostage in Syria last year.
Abe did not comment about the message in the latest video that demanded a prisoner exchange for the other hostage, journalist Kenji Goto.
"I am left speechless," he said, stressing he wants Goto released unharmed. "We strongly and totally criticize such acts."
Yukawa's father, Shoichi, said he hoped "deep in his heart" that the news of his son's killing was not true.
"If I am ever reunited with him, I just want to give him a big hug," he told a small group of journalists invited into his house.
President Obama condemned the "brutal murder." He said in a statement that the United States stands by Japan and calling for Goto's release.
The U.S. National Security Council said it has seen the video and that the intelligence community is working to confirm its authenticity.
“The United States strongly condemns (Islamic State’s) actions, and we call for the immediate release of all the remaining hostages,” said agency spokesman Patrick Ventrell.
The CIA also has confirmed it is aware of the video and is reviewing it.
The video message claims one hostage has been killed and demands a prisoner exchange for the other.
The Associated Press could not verify the contents of the message, which varied greatly from previous videos released by Islamic State, which now holds a third of both Syria and Iraq.
Japanese government spokesman Yoshihide Suga said the audio was still being studied, but there was no reason to deny the authenticity of the video.
One militant on the Islamic State-affiliated website warned that Saturday's new message was fake, while another said that the message was intended only to go to the Japanese journalist's family.
A third militant on the website noted that the video was not issued by al-Furqan, which is one of the media arms of the Islamic State group and has issued past videos involving hostages and beheadings. Saturday's message did not bear al-Furqan's logo.
The militants on the website post comments using pseudonyms, so their identities could not be independently confirmed by the AP. However, their confusion over the video matched that of Japanese officials and outside observers.
Nuke who? ISIS is only a small faction, in an area where hundreds of thousands of innocent civillians would be potential victims of a nuclear explosion. Sometimes I worry that you actually DO think before you speak, which is far scarier than the alternative.
meanwhile in the real world.......how long do you think these fuckwad's will get away with this shit ? it's time to quit pussy footin around and nuke the dumb-ass's.
Godfather.
Japan's prime minister said Sunday he was "speechless" after an online video purportedly showed an Islamic State militant killing one of the two Japanese hostages.
Shinzo Abe told Japanese broadcaster NHK the government is still reviewing the video, but it was likely authentic. Abe offered his condolences to the family and friends of 42-year-old Haruna Yukawa, who was taken hostage in Syria last year.
Abe did not comment about the message in the latest video that demanded a prisoner exchange for the other hostage, journalist Kenji Goto.
"I am left speechless," he said, stressing he wants Goto released unharmed. "We strongly and totally criticize such acts."
Yukawa's father, Shoichi, said he hoped "deep in his heart" that the news of his son's killing was not true.
"If I am ever reunited with him, I just want to give him a big hug," he told a small group of journalists invited into his house.
President Obama condemned the "brutal murder." He said in a statement that the United States stands by Japan and calling for Goto's release.
The U.S. National Security Council said it has seen the video and that the intelligence community is working to confirm its authenticity.
“The United States strongly condemns (Islamic State’s) actions, and we call for the immediate release of all the remaining hostages,” said agency spokesman Patrick Ventrell.
The CIA also has confirmed it is aware of the video and is reviewing it.
The video message claims one hostage has been killed and demands a prisoner exchange for the other.
The Associated Press could not verify the contents of the message, which varied greatly from previous videos released by Islamic State, which now holds a third of both Syria and Iraq.
Japanese government spokesman Yoshihide Suga said the audio was still being studied, but there was no reason to deny the authenticity of the video.
One militant on the Islamic State-affiliated website warned that Saturday's new message was fake, while another said that the message was intended only to go to the Japanese journalist's family.
A third militant on the website noted that the video was not issued by al-Furqan, which is one of the media arms of the Islamic State group and has issued past videos involving hostages and beheadings. Saturday's message did not bear al-Furqan's logo.
The militants on the website post comments using pseudonyms, so their identities could not be independently confirmed by the AP. However, their confusion over the video matched that of Japanese officials and outside observers.
The Associated Press contributed to this report
Here's the thing about the 'dumb-asses': they're usually the ones who create outrageous blanket statements wishing murder indiscriminately on large populaces based on delusional expectations of results. They are not necessarily the ones who follow commands out of fear for their or their families' lives (certainly not the ones who are literally being forced into a specific region to serve as human shields for the tyrants in charge), they are not necessarily the ones at the top of the terror organization hierarchy who know deep down that terror is their best weapon, and by being the spokespeople for a purposefully-unattainable cause, they guarantee their long-term necessity and maintain their power (again, 'dumb-asses' wouldn't be a term I'd use on them). These same top-of-the-food-chain leaders, by the way, are the ones who claim that their god holds that true number one spot, but yet choose to leave the heart of a war-zone, just as an extra little bit of insurance.
There's also the non-militant Iranians, Iraqis and Syrians to consider. These regular people who lost the lottery by being born in a war-torn region instead of where you are, by the way, might really enjoy a trade with someone like you in California right about now. This way, you can be the "dumb-ass" who just gets "nuked" when some gun-toting American - the descendant of someone admittedly responsible to some degree for the very hell you live in - decides that your time has come in the interest of destroying a greater evil. Which can't be destroyed. And re-enters the world under the guise of a different name if you push their buttons. Oh, and it may be worth mentioning that these evils only came into being after America's beak entered and brought about injustices and imbalances. Clearly, interventionism is critical now more than ever (highly sarcastic sentence, in case I didn't make that apparent enough).
I always liked that line attributed to Einstein (I know it wasn't actually his): the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. For some reason, we give people a free pass and choose not to label them insane when they propose interventionism as a solution to a problem: an idea which, when executed, fails time and time again.
Godfather, if you honestly believe that we should bomb a region indiscriminately without the assurance (or even reasonable assumption) that these evils will indeed never rear their ugly heads again, you are no less evil than them, because you have said that the taking of innocent lives is justifiable in. And if you believe that "this intervention would be different", when clearly the scenario has already played out in the past, then you're not necessarily evil, but you are incredibly naive. If you're neither - I'm all ears when you're ready to explain how or why this intervention could be different.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Not sure if quoting is working on my phone Brianlux but your higlighted sentence from Fuck shows where the massive disconnect is.
These grievances which were once mainly political are becoming thoroughly religious. Arabs/Palestinians/Muslims decided to align themselves with the religious extremists in their midst in order to achieve their ultimate political goals. As time has moved on the religious fanatics have grown more powerful and have pretty much consumed all the secular and moderates among them to the point where this is no longer about historical grievances. My point on these boards from the beginning is that as long as the moderate palestinians/arabs/muslims throw their lot in with the religious fanatics further atrocities like hebdo will continue and ultimately their political goals will fail. I appreciate that Fuck wants to see the return of his homeland but by becoming an Islamopologist he harms his cause. He should print his pretty little post in a Japanese newspaper so that the people there can be more understanding of the barbarians who beheaded their countrymen.
Fuck ,when I say "forget"I don't mean wipe it from all memory.I am referring to the context of the here and now.In my opinion as non religious person or Muslim I would think to move forward as a voice,a community(global of course),As a "political"entity and in your case a state.one has to not live in the actions of the past but think to what can be in the future.The violence and acts against innocent people(like in the kosher deli) will drag your momentum down and pull you back in the worlds eyes.These jihadis acting out ,stain your religion and muffle the real voice of people who are struggling politically like your people.The world was listening last year when bombs were dropping in Palestinian lands.But no one will continue to listen as long as others are over shadowing your voices with their actions.That is just fact.The world as a whole doesn't give a shit about what wrongs Muslims faced in the last hundred years.All they see is kid suicide bombers and train cars blowing up.They see idiots try to bomb this and shoot up that all in the name of religion.Im sorry but that is not as political as it is religious.
And if I'm using your thought process(Which is always well worded and thought out) then shouldn't all Israeli actions then be political and not religious.The wrongs Jews faced from the Spanish inquisition to The third Reich surely leave mental scars and wouldn't their actions also be considered justified under your way of thinking?
If political gamesmanship is what we have here ,and those nut jobs are not fundamentalists but political operatives then why aren't they seeking political solutions?Why kill innocent people?The Japanese fellow who IS beheaded what was his contribution the this nonsense?Nothing,that's what.So this isn't political its cowardly murder in the name of religion.Your religion.My point is if you don't want to be lumped in to the same category as the terrorists in the world view then a ground swell of anti fundamentalist actions must be provided from within the Muslim ranks,no?
Not sure if quoting is working on my phone Brianlux but your higlighted sentence from Fuck shows where the massive disconnect is.
These grievances which were once mainly political are becoming thoroughly religious. Arabs/Palestinians/Muslims decided to align themselves with the religious extremists in their midst in order to achieve their ultimate political goals. As time has moved on the religious fanatics have grown more powerful and have pretty much consumed all the secular and moderates among them to the point where this is no longer about historical grievances. My point on these boards from the beginning is that as long as the moderate palestinians/arabs/muslims throw their lot in with the religious fanatics further atrocities like hebdo will continue and ultimately their political goals will fail. I appreciate that Fuck wants to see the return of his homeland but by becoming an Islamopologist he harms his cause. He should print his pretty little post in a Japanese newspaper so that the people there can be more understanding of the barbarians who beheaded their countrymen.
I agree here,we are kinda saying the same thing BS.You just wrapped it up better than I.
I have to say, BS44, you seem to embody the exact sort of ideology that you rail against. You talk about Islamopology without acknowledging the role that western imperialism plays, effectively being an imperiopologist. You end your post with a shot about his pretty post and reference tje Japanese people as if they have some great cause for mass outrage. I try to hold all lives as equal, and not keep score, but 1 Japanese citizen beheaded by "barbarians" doesn't balance well against a million dead Iraqis and a cancer/birth defect that surpasses that which the world witnessed when "the greatest nation" dropped nukes. As big of an enemy as extremist religion is, if you fail to see that extremist capitalism is worse, you are much worse than an "islamopologist"
Not sure if quoting is working on my phone Brianlux but your higlighted sentence from Fuck shows where the massive disconnect is.
These grievances which were once mainly political are becoming thoroughly religious.
Hm. So let me get this straight. Palestinians have a bone to pick with the state of Israel, and it's alright, because they were oppressed. Now because Israel is not just a state, but a Jewish state, since religion is involved, we should condemn it. But Israel itself pushes for the distinction of Jewish state instead of a secular state (which clearly at least embodies the Jewish homeland) - so who's making it about religion?
Arabs/Palestinians/Muslims decided to align themselves with the religious extremists in their midst in order to achieve their ultimate political goals.
Good thing it's so unheard of for world leaders to recognize barbaric behaviour and join right in after recognizing personal gain. Also, is doing something out of fear, delusion, or propaganda an unfamiliar notion to you?
As time has moved on the religious fanatics have grown more powerful and have pretty much consumed all the secular and moderates among them to the point where this is no longer about historical grievances.
Sounds a little bit like the way Netanyahu bends over when the right-wing ultra-Orthodox have something to say to him. After all, the only legitimate reason for Israel containing Gaza and the West Bank is "biblical claim".
My point on these boards from the beginning is that as long as the moderate palestinians/arabs/muslims throw their lot in with the religious fanatics further atrocities like hebdo will continue and ultimately their political goals will fail.
How convenient: because of the existing power dynamics, you're right, which, again, Islamic militant group leaders don't mind one bit - their power remains, the remainder of the populace's is absent. Good thing Israeli Jews are on top so they can preach religious fanaticism without any negative ramifications. Leaders and citizens happy - what a deal!
I appreciate that Fuck wants to see the return of his homeland but by becoming an Islamopologist he harms his cause. He should print his pretty little post in a Japanese newspaper so that the people there can be more understanding of the barbarians who beheaded their countrymen.
It seems pretty obvious to me that global condemnation of Islam forces the hand of people like fuck, who see innately noble goals of peaceful coexistence found within the religion, and have others' perceptions of Muslim barbarism shoved down their throats on a regular basis. If my friend draws a cartoon of me, with a huge beak-nose and orthodox Jewish attire, stealing money from a homeless person, I'm going to speak up against that offensive statement, in spite of Judaism having been an inherently negative presence in my life. Why is it socially acceptable that a North American man should be seen as a gentleman, when a Middle Eastern man is seen as an animal?
I just want to expand on your 'point from the beginning' in addition to my italicized comments on yours.
If I rip out your larynx so you can't tell a story, cut off your knees so you can't run to a friend to try to communicate it, tie your hands behind your back because I wouldn't want you writing it down, and then someone comes along and says "join us - the people who did this to you should not be allowed to do so" - what reasonable person, battered and beaten and broken, is going to turn down that opportunity? Fanaticism is literally the only way that us selfish developed-world folks have even taken notice to the fact that the Middle East exists for anything but oil, and to the fact that there are humans there.
I'm getting sick and tired of saying this over and over again, but fanaticism isn't the biggest issue the world has: it's this general lack of giving a shit about anyone other than ME.
Post edited by benjs on
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
I see right thru BS and his statements. I know his goals and what he's doing. As so many here do as well. Keep spreading your HATE BS. Now come on here and make a post about how I support terrorism or terrorists.
I sit in the middle. Feom where I am sitting it looks like the terrorists' intellectual will to war comes from politics, and emotional will to war comes from religion and destruction in their lands (where that applies)
I sit in the middle. Feom where I am sitting it looks like the terrorists' intellectual will to war comes from politics, and emotional will to war comes from religion and destruction in their lands (where that applies)
I always love your answers, rgambs. Great reminder for me to stop thinking in such binary ways, I wouldn't have even sub-divided into emotion versus intellectual will.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Thanks ben! The reason I see it that way is likely because I am a secular atheist. I can think of many reasons to start or join a conflict intellectually, but deep down, my gut doesn't want to risk it's tenuous hold on this life I truly feel to be singular. This is it, so guard it my gut says. I think religion allows one to overcome that gut feeling, for better sometimes, and worse sometimes. Self and family defense is the only motivator to violence for me, and even the most brainwashed of terrorists knows they aren't actually defending anyone IMO.
What are my goals and what am I doing badbrains? What hate am I spreading? All I ask is that you recognize the zealots that are destroying your culture. If Israel vanished and Western capitalism/imperialism disappeared from the middle east tomorrow all that would be left is one massive islamic caliphate that would subgugate it's own people. That is not hate. That is reality. You dodge this post after post because it is too hard for you to confront.
Not sure if quoting is working on my phone Brianlux but your higlighted sentence from Fuck shows where the massive disconnect is.
These grievances which were once mainly political are becoming thoroughly religious.
Hm. So let me get this straight. Palestinians have a bone to pick with the state of Israel, and it's alright, because they were oppressed. Now because Israel is not just a state, but a Jewish state, since religion is involved, we should condemn it. But Israel itself pushes for the distinction of Jewish state instead of a secular state (which clearly at least embodies the Jewish homeland) - so who's making it about religion?
Arabs/Palestinians/Muslims decided to align themselves with the religious extremists in their midst in order to achieve their ultimate political goals.
Good thing it's so unheard of for world leaders to recognize barbaric behaviour and join right in after recognizing personal gain. Also, is doing something out of fear, delusion, or propaganda an unfamiliar notion to you?
As time has moved on the religious fanatics have grown more powerful and have pretty much consumed all the secular and moderates among them to the point where this is no longer about historical grievances.
Sounds a little bit like the way Netanyahu bends over when the right-wing ultra-Orthodox have something to say to him. After all, the only legitimate reason for Israel containing Gaza and the West Bank is "biblical claim".
My point on these boards from the beginning is that as long as the moderate palestinians/arabs/muslims throw their lot in with the religious fanatics further atrocities like hebdo will continue and ultimately their political goals will fail.
How convenient: because of the existing power dynamics, you're right, which, again, Islamic militant group leaders don't mind one bit - their power remains, the remainder of the populace's is absent. Good thing Israeli Jews are on top so they can preach religious fanaticism without any negative ramifications. Leaders and citizens happy - what a deal!
I appreciate that Fuck wants to see the return of his homeland but by becoming an Islamopologist he harms his cause. He should print his pretty little post in a Japanese newspaper so that the people there can be more understanding of the barbarians who beheaded their countrymen.
It seems pretty obvious to me that global condemnation of Islam forces the hand of people like fuck, who see innately noble goals of peaceful coexistence found within the religion, and have others' perceptions of Muslim barbarism shoved down their throats on a regular basis. If my friend draws a cartoon of me, with a huge beak-nose and orthodox Jewish attire, stealing money from a homeless person, I'm going to speak up against that offensive statement, in spite of Judaism having been an inherently negative presence in my life. Why is it socially acceptable that a North American man should be seen as a gentleman, when a Middle Eastern man is seen as an animal?
I just want to expand on your 'point from the beginning' in addition to my italicized comments on yours.
If I rip out your larynx so you can't tell a story, cut off your knees so you can't run to a friend to try to communicate it, tie your hands behind your back because I wouldn't want you writing it down, and then someone comes along and says "join us - the people who did this to you should not be allowed to do so" - what reasonable person, battered and beaten and broken, is going to turn down that opportunity? Fanaticism is literally the only way that us selfish developed-world folks have even taken notice to the fact that the Middle East exists for anything but oil, and to the fact that there are humans there.
I'm getting sick and tired of saying this over and over again, but fanaticism isn't the biggest issue the world has: it's this general lack of giving a shit about anyone other than ME.
Then how does this account for IS actions against other peoples that live in the middle east?
To simplify my thoughts to all those who think I'm filled with hate...I see this all through the lens of the The Matrix
The humans are "The West/Israel/Capitalism" (your choice)
The machines are "Arabs/Palestinians/Aggrieved member of the middle east" (again your choice and remember...if you know the backstory of the matrix it was the humans that attacked the machines first so that doesn't mean the machines are necessarily the bad guys even though they want to destroy ZION)
Agent Smith represents the Islamists. Fights on behalf of the machines but eventually seeks to consume and destroy everything.
Until Neo convinces the Matrix that they must work together to destroy Agent Smith peace is not achieved.
I'm lost too but can't help thinking there was a clearer and more culturally current way to make the same point using Game Of Thrones in place of the Matrix.
I have to say, BS44, you seem to embody the exact sort of ideology that you rail against. You talk about Islamopology without acknowledging the role that western imperialism plays, effectively being an imperiopologist. You end your post with a shot about his pretty post and reference tje Japanese people as if they have some great cause for mass outrage. I try to hold all lives as equal, and not keep score, but 1 Japanese citizen beheaded by "barbarians" doesn't balance well against a million dead Iraqis and a cancer/birth defect that surpasses that which the world witnessed when "the greatest nation" dropped nukes. As big of an enemy as extremist religion is, if you fail to see that extremist capitalism is worse, you are much worse than an "islamopologist"
Gambs,although everything you mention above is horrible and def worth discussion and consideration you must simplify the equation.Yes there have been plenty of injustices against the Muslim world(many are at hands of Muslims)It can in no way excuse,justify or give credibility to violent acts against others simply because of the past.Some of What happened in Iraq at the hands of the west is deplorable.No excuses,blood on our hands.But no two wrongs can make a right.
You can say the same thing about Black people in USA.After years of disgusting treatment at the hands of bigotry and slavery and lack of human rights and dignity,we all agree it's a black eye on our countries history.This does not give reason or excuse for a person of color to shoot up a mall in Mississippi in revenge for treatment of family members 4-5 generations ago.That would be asinine.So no matter the brutality of past actions one cannot strike out against others who are innocent and say with any good conscience that is is understandable.
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,292
edited January 2015
Just a little side note/observation: Amongst us here, "confront" seems to be the operative word. Certainly more so than "collaborate".
Post edited by brianlux on
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I'm lost too but can't help thinking there was a clearer and more culturally current way to make the same point using Game Of Thrones in place of the Matrix.
Never seen either (well, I tried with the Matrix and stopped after my "give it 20-minutes" rule.
Regardless of views, some incredibly well-spoken folks here - thank you.
if fundamentalism is the real enemy, which I agree with, there's really nothing that can be done about that, am I right? I mean, we all come from a long line of fundamentalists, don't we? our culture had to evolve away from that naturally, as in not being bombed away from it. the problem is, centralized fundamentalism wasn't as big a problem as global fundamentalism is, and by that I mean our fundamentalist ancestors didn't have the "reach" that current ones do. do we let those cultures evolve naturally, or because of the current time period we're in, do we have to run interference? which one will cause the least amount of casualties?
It's not the real enemy though. Fundamentalism is a Western concept that only applies to Christianity, and in some cases to Judaism. It does not apply to Islam. All Muslims are "fundamentalists" on some level. We follow the "fundamentals" of the faith, of the text. I reject the idea that to be a "good" Muslim we have to reject fundamental parts of our faith. This is not the way forward, to impose a good Muslim/bad Muslim dichotomy. The issues are political. Address the political grievances, and religious justification for violence will fade because reasons for violence in general will fade.
There is a big difference between following "some fundamentals" and being a actual fundamentalist, which is someone who follows the original written text to the letter. We all follow some christian fundamentals (because, in reality, they are human fundamentals-ethics-not invented by any historic scroll written by a deity), but being a christian fundamentalist is entirely different.
Fundamentalism can be applied to people of both religions, and I disagree with your assessment that it's all politics. Religious fanatacism cannot be solved by political means. Do tou really believe that if Palestine/Israeli conflict were ended by those in power, that the violence would stop? You can't please everyone, and at least one, if not both of those groups, or possibly a new, even more militant group, would emerge from that. It is the clash of religions that causes these, if not the good majority, of all conflicts.
"Oh Canada...you're beautiful when you're drunk" -EV 8/14/93
Culturally current? This is a Pearl Jam message board. We are children of the 90's! The exact opposite of culturally current!
I would think most of us are children of the 70/80s entering adulthood as the 90s were coming in.Side track thought-what is the most common age on this board.I would think its a bit older here in the AMT.more big kid convo and thought.
Comments
I don't know, BS. It's true that Fuck and I at times obviously don't share a great love for each other and also at times we've clashed here massively, but what he said as a whole in the post you quote from seems to me pretty damn thought-provoking and obviously really well thought out. This for example:
At the end of the day, you have to understand these political contexts because the grievance of these violent extremists IS political, NOT religious. They coat them in religious terms - of course - but it's political at the end of the day.
That's a bold statement, very much worth looking at. Hell, the whole post gave me a lot to think about. And you just write it off as "wrong, wrong, wrong" ?
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Godfather.
Japan's prime minister said Sunday he was "speechless" after an online video purportedly showed an Islamic State militant killing one of the two Japanese hostages.
Shinzo Abe told Japanese broadcaster NHK the government is still reviewing the video, but it was likely authentic. Abe offered his condolences to the family and friends of 42-year-old Haruna Yukawa, who was taken hostage in Syria last year.
Abe did not comment about the message in the latest video that demanded a prisoner exchange for the other hostage, journalist Kenji Goto.
"I am left speechless," he said, stressing he wants Goto released unharmed. "We strongly and totally criticize such acts."
Yukawa's father, Shoichi, said he hoped "deep in his heart" that the news of his son's killing was not true.
"If I am ever reunited with him, I just want to give him a big hug," he told a small group of journalists invited into his house.
President Obama condemned the "brutal murder." He said in a statement that the United States stands by Japan and calling for Goto's release.
The U.S. National Security Council said it has seen the video and that the intelligence community is working to confirm its authenticity.
“The United States strongly condemns (Islamic State’s) actions, and we call for the immediate release of all the remaining hostages,” said agency spokesman Patrick Ventrell.
The CIA also has confirmed it is aware of the video and is reviewing it.
The video message claims one hostage has been killed and demands a prisoner exchange for the other.
The Associated Press could not verify the contents of the message, which varied greatly from previous videos released by Islamic State, which now holds a third of both Syria and Iraq.
Japanese government spokesman Yoshihide Suga said the audio was still being studied, but there was no reason to deny the authenticity of the video.
One militant on the Islamic State-affiliated website warned that Saturday's new message was fake, while another said that the message was intended only to go to the Japanese journalist's family.
A third militant on the website noted that the video was not issued by al-Furqan, which is one of the media arms of the Islamic State group and has issued past videos involving hostages and beheadings. Saturday's message did not bear al-Furqan's logo.
The militants on the website post comments using pseudonyms, so their identities could not be independently confirmed by the AP. However, their confusion over the video matched that of Japanese officials and outside observers.
The Associated Press contributed to this report
Here's the thing about the 'dumb-asses': they're usually the ones who create outrageous blanket statements wishing murder indiscriminately on large populaces based on delusional expectations of results. They are not necessarily the ones who follow commands out of fear for their or their families' lives (certainly not the ones who are literally being forced into a specific region to serve as human shields for the tyrants in charge), they are not necessarily the ones at the top of the terror organization hierarchy who know deep down that terror is their best weapon, and by being the spokespeople for a purposefully-unattainable cause, they guarantee their long-term necessity and maintain their power (again, 'dumb-asses' wouldn't be a term I'd use on them). These same top-of-the-food-chain leaders, by the way, are the ones who claim that their god holds that true number one spot, but yet choose to leave the heart of a war-zone, just as an extra little bit of insurance.
There's also the non-militant Iranians, Iraqis and Syrians to consider. These regular people who lost the lottery by being born in a war-torn region instead of where you are, by the way, might really enjoy a trade with someone like you in California right about now. This way, you can be the "dumb-ass" who just gets "nuked" when some gun-toting American - the descendant of someone admittedly responsible to some degree for the very hell you live in - decides that your time has come in the interest of destroying a greater evil. Which can't be destroyed. And re-enters the world under the guise of a different name if you push their buttons. Oh, and it may be worth mentioning that these evils only came into being after America's beak entered and brought about injustices and imbalances. Clearly, interventionism is critical now more than ever (highly sarcastic sentence, in case I didn't make that apparent enough).
I always liked that line attributed to Einstein (I know it wasn't actually his): the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. For some reason, we give people a free pass and choose not to label them insane when they propose interventionism as a solution to a problem: an idea which, when executed, fails time and time again.
Godfather, if you honestly believe that we should bomb a region indiscriminately without the assurance (or even reasonable assumption) that these evils will indeed never rear their ugly heads again, you are no less evil than them, because you have said that the taking of innocent lives is justifiable in. And if you believe that "this intervention would be different", when clearly the scenario has already played out in the past, then you're not necessarily evil, but you are incredibly naive. If you're neither - I'm all ears when you're ready to explain how or why this intervention could be different.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Not sure if quoting is working on my phone Brianlux but your higlighted sentence from Fuck shows where the massive disconnect is.
These grievances which were once mainly political are becoming thoroughly religious. Arabs/Palestinians/Muslims decided to align themselves with the religious extremists in their midst in order to achieve their ultimate political goals. As time has moved on the religious fanatics have grown more powerful and have pretty much consumed all the secular and moderates among them to the point where this is no longer about historical grievances. My point on these boards from the beginning is that as long as the moderate palestinians/arabs/muslims throw their lot in with the religious fanatics further atrocities like hebdo will continue and ultimately their political goals will fail. I appreciate that Fuck wants to see the return of his homeland but by becoming an Islamopologist he harms his cause. He should print his pretty little post in a Japanese newspaper so that the people there can be more understanding of the barbarians who beheaded their countrymen.
And if I'm using your thought process(Which is always well worded and thought out) then shouldn't all Israeli actions then be political and not religious.The wrongs Jews faced from the Spanish inquisition to The third Reich surely leave mental scars and wouldn't their actions also be considered justified under your way of thinking?
If political gamesmanship is what we have here ,and those nut jobs are not fundamentalists but political operatives then why aren't they seeking political solutions?Why kill innocent people?The Japanese fellow who IS beheaded what was his contribution the this nonsense?Nothing,that's what.So this isn't political its cowardly murder in the name of religion.Your religion.My point is if you don't want to be lumped in to the same category as the terrorists in the world view then a ground swell of anti fundamentalist actions must be provided from within the Muslim ranks,no?
I agree here,we are kinda saying the same thing BS.You just wrapped it up better than I.
I just want to expand on your 'point from the beginning' in addition to my italicized comments on yours.
If I rip out your larynx so you can't tell a story, cut off your knees so you can't run to a friend to try to communicate it, tie your hands behind your back because I wouldn't want you writing it down, and then someone comes along and says "join us - the people who did this to you should not be allowed to do so" - what reasonable person, battered and beaten and broken, is going to turn down that opportunity? Fanaticism is literally the only way that us selfish developed-world folks have even taken notice to the fact that the Middle East exists for anything but oil, and to the fact that there are humans there.
I'm getting sick and tired of saying this over and over again, but fanaticism isn't the biggest issue the world has: it's this general lack of giving a shit about anyone other than ME.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
I always love your answers, rgambs. Great reminder for me to stop thinking in such binary ways, I wouldn't have even sub-divided into emotion versus intellectual will.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Then how does this account for IS actions against other peoples that live in the middle east?
The humans are "The West/Israel/Capitalism" (your choice)
The machines are "Arabs/Palestinians/Aggrieved member of the middle east" (again your choice and remember...if you know the backstory of the matrix it was the humans that attacked the machines first so that doesn't mean the machines are necessarily the bad guys even though they want to destroy ZION)
Agent Smith represents the Islamists. Fights on behalf of the machines but eventually seeks to consume and destroy everything.
Until Neo convinces the Matrix that they must work together to destroy Agent Smith peace is not achieved.
:-?
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Gambs,although everything you mention above is horrible and def worth discussion and consideration you must simplify the equation.Yes there have been plenty of injustices against the Muslim world(many are at hands of Muslims)It can in no way excuse,justify or give credibility to violent acts against others simply because of the past.Some of What happened in Iraq at the hands of the west is deplorable.No excuses,blood on our hands.But no two wrongs can make a right.
You can say the same thing about Black people in USA.After years of disgusting treatment at the hands of bigotry and slavery and lack of human rights and dignity,we all agree it's a black eye on our countries history.This does not give reason or excuse for a person of color to shoot up a mall in Mississippi in revenge for treatment of family members 4-5 generations ago.That would be asinine.So no matter the brutality of past actions one cannot strike out against others who are innocent and say with any good conscience that is is understandable.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Regardless of views, some incredibly well-spoken folks here - thank you.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
There is a big difference between following "some fundamentals" and being a actual fundamentalist, which is someone who follows the original written text to the letter. We all follow some christian fundamentals (because, in reality, they are human fundamentals-ethics-not invented by any historic scroll written by a deity), but being a christian fundamentalist is entirely different.
Fundamentalism can be applied to people of both religions, and I disagree with your assessment that it's all politics. Religious fanatacism cannot be solved by political means. Do tou really believe that if Palestine/Israeli conflict were ended by those in power, that the violence would stop? You can't please everyone, and at least one, if not both of those groups, or possibly a new, even more militant group, would emerge from that. It is the clash of religions that causes these, if not the good majority, of all conflicts.
-EV 8/14/93
I would think most of us are children of the 70/80s entering adulthood as the 90s were coming in.Side track thought-what is the most common age on this board.I would think its a bit older here in the AMT.more big kid convo and thought.