Charlie Hebdo Paris shooting: 12 dead after gunmen storm newspaper's HQ

Look Russ no lines!

if fundamentalism is the real enemy, which I agree with, there's really nothing that can be done about that, am I right? I mean, we all come from a long line of fundamentalists, don't we? our culture had to evolve away from that naturally, as in not being bombed away from it. the problem is, centralized fundamentalism wasn't as big a problem as global fundamentalism is, and by that I mean our fundamentalist ancestors didn't have the "reach" that current ones do. do we let those cultures evolve naturally, or because of the current time period we're in, do we have to run interference? which one will cause the least amount of casualties?

rr165892 wrote: »

When you give understanding to the reason why they commit these acts you on a subconscience (or not) level are giving some form of silent support.It must be stopped from within.Nonexcuses can be made,No finger pointing can be cast at any other people or religion.You guys have a little house cleaning that is needed and only you can clean it right.
Maybe start with the backwards suppressive societies with Middle East that fuel hatred and bigotry.Hello Saudi Arabia.
this whole thing saddens me and I really worry that escalation and more divisive actions could be in our near future.I could see more violent acts,maybe on American soil and then the Muslim backlash and a McCarthy like situation with innocent everyday Muslims being the victims of fear.

Sorry for the late response rr. I have been working a lot this past week.
First, let me say that I do appreciate the sincerity of the past few posts. Your ideas are genuinely expressed and come across as such. But I'm afraid that they are terribly misguided.
Firstly, trying to understand where the jihadi mindset comes from does not remotely suggest we are excusing or justifying the behavior. As a student of history I was fascinated with Nazism because it was incredible to me the level of fascism that infected the German people and led to some of the worst atrocities committed. How can a people be driven to support something like this? To actively participate in it? When I, as a Palestinian, explain Zionism, I always explain that it came out of the insane nationalism and nation-state formation, along with colonialism, from Europe. It incorporated these concepts. It also came from the awful anti-Semitism that Jews in Europe faced. Does that JUSTIFY or EXCUSE the crimes that the fascist colonialist ideology of Zionism has imposed on the Palestinians? of course not. But it allows us an opportunity to understand it, which can help us counter it, and then prevent it in the future.

Now to the subject at hand. FYI: It's not merely "a bomb" that was dropped "in the first gulf war" or a land that was colonized 100 years ago. Bombs are still being dropped now. Land is still being colonized now. Yes, it's not as obvious as before, and being Americans we're given the comfort of being able to ignore that this is happening. But to suggest that Muslims need to simply "forget" what happened 100 years ago as if it is not happening today is to ignore the reality they face today. It's like when people tell Palestinians to "move on" from the Nakba since it happened nearly 70 years ago, ignoring the fact that nearly 3 million Palestinians still languish in refugee camps BECAUSE of their expulsion by Zionist Israelis and Israel's refusal to allow them back in, and it also ignores the ongoing Nakba (expulsions and murder) going on today. These aren't anachronistic ideas, these are realities Muslims face today.

It's not just American bombs that drives these people, it's also the political repression and lack of political openness in the Middle East being imposed upon them by American-supported dictators. Look at Egypt. Islamists there tried the democratic process, they won through democratic means in the ballot box, and tried to work within the system. When General Sisi and the Egyptian military overthrew the democratically-elected Islamist president and began massacring his supporters in the streets, where do you think the military got these weapons from? The US gives Egypt $1 billion of military aid every year. What lesson does this teach Islamists? It teaches them that democracy is a lie. In this world, only those that the powerful favor can enjoy democracy. If the West doesn't like you, you're out. The same thing happened in Algeria in 1992: Islamists won elections, the military intervened and a civil war broke out. Same thing with Hamas in 2006. They went to the ballot box, and the West tried to intervene.

So you have the moderate Islamists who try democracy and reject violence, and then you have the crazy Al Qaeda types who reject democracy and promote violence. When the West invades Iraq, supports military coups, and so on, whose argument do you think is promoted? Al Qaeda says, "What did we tell you? There's no such thing as democracy."

At the end of the day, you have to understand these political contexts because the grievance of these violent extremists IS political, NOT religious. They coat them in religious terms - of course - but it's political at the end of the day. Bin Laden made it very clear that US support for Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestinians was why he attacked (along with the presence of US military bases in Saudi Arabia, etc.). These are all political grievances.

Why are US relations with Iran so bad? Why did Iranians hold embassy staff hostage in 1979? It was all political reasons, not because they happen to call themselves an Islamic Republic. It was because the US toppled the democratically-elected president in Iran in the 1950s and eventually the Iranians rebelled, overthrew the Shah dictator that the US was supporting, and then there was a backlash.

Certainly, Muslims need to make it clear that violence is not the way. But guess what? We do! But we are trapped. We are trapped by Westerners on the one side who support these imperial policies (these are only a few examples above of a list of many, many, many more) and those on the other side who say "This world is about power, and you can't advocate tolerance and dialogue while the other side is killing you."

I find it incredibly ironic when Westerners tell Muslims to speak up and condemn extremists, when they aren't doing their part: what are you telling YOUR government about its policies in the Middle East? About its support for the Egyptian dictator? About its support for Saudi Arabia which not only imposes its severe interpretation of Islam (which is also political in many ways: it suppresses the population and secures autocratic rule) but also exports it elsewhere? About its support for Israel which just massacred over 500 children on your TV screen last summer?

Stop asking Muslims what they're doing. What are YOU doing?

EDIT: Also, rr, this only scratches the surface. The policies imposed on Middle Eastern countries since the days that the colonial powers were there (~150 years ago) still play a VERY important part today. I understand why you might not see it - the reality you grew up, the environment, etc., is all just so different - but this is a reality for many people. The nation-state system, the system of governance and all that you're used to came naturally in the West. It developed slowly. The process however was imposed on Arab and other Muslim countries so suddenly, where power was swallowed up by the government of this new "nation" idea, and thus the people were made subject to the whim of this state. The effects of this are still being felt today and will for a while now. That's why I think ISIS is so fascinating -- they declare themselves to be returning to the "old" Islam, the "caliphate" and yet they insist they are a "state"! They claim to be traditional but they coat themselves in modern terms. They are modernized people who are products of modernity, products of the West, of Europe, etc. They are as much a "Western" product as they are a "Muslim" product and - most of all - a product of the modern world!

Fuck,I got more questions/thoughts here,but not a lot of time.so I'll get back to ya Tmorro.

"When I, as a Palestinian, explain Zionism, I always explain that it came out of the insane nationalism and nation-state formation, along with colonialism, from Europe."

That's your problem right there Fuck. That is just wrong, wrong, wrong.

BS44325 wrote: »

"When I, as a Palestinian, explain Zionism, I always explain that it came out of the insane nationalism and nation-state formation, along with colonialism, from Europe."

That's your problem right there Fuck. That is just wrong, wrong, wrong.

I don't know, BS. It's true that Fuck and I at times obviously don't share a great love for each other and also at times we've clashed here massively, but what he said as a whole in the post you quote from seems to me pretty damn thought-provoking and obviously really well thought out. This for example:

At the end of the day, you have to understand these political contexts because the grievance of these violent extremists IS political, NOT religious. They coat them in religious terms - of course - but it's political at the end of the day.

That's a bold statement, very much worth looking at. Hell, the whole post gave me a lot to think about. And you just write it off as "wrong, wrong, wrong" ?

Nuke who? ISIS is only a small faction, in an area where hundreds of thousands of innocent civillians would be potential victims of a nuclear explosion. Sometimes I worry that you actually DO think before you speak, which is far scarier than the alternative.

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Not sure if quoting is working on my phone Brianlux but your higlighted sentence from Fuck shows where the massive disconnect is.

These grievances which were once mainly political are becoming thoroughly religious. Arabs/Palestinians/Muslims decided to align themselves with the religious extremists in their midst in order to achieve their ultimate political goals. As time has moved on the religious fanatics have grown more powerful and have pretty much consumed all the secular and moderates among them to the point where this is no longer about historical grievances. My point on these boards from the beginning is that as long as the moderate palestinians/arabs/muslims throw their lot in with the religious fanatics further atrocities like hebdo will continue and ultimately their political goals will fail. I appreciate that Fuck wants to see the return of his homeland but by becoming an Islamopologist he harms his cause. He should print his pretty little post in a Japanese newspaper so that the people there can be more understanding of the barbarians who beheaded their countrymen.

BS44325 wrote: »

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Not sure if quoting is working on my phone Brianlux but your higlighted sentence from Fuck shows where the massive disconnect is.

These grievances which were once mainly political are becoming thoroughly religious. Arabs/Palestinians/Muslims decided to align themselves with the religious extremists in their midst in order to achieve their ultimate political goals. As time has moved on the religious fanatics have grown more powerful and have pretty much consumed all the secular and moderates among them to the point where this is no longer about historical grievances. My point on these boards from the beginning is that as long as the moderate palestinians/arabs/muslims throw their lot in with the religious fanatics further atrocities like hebdo will continue and ultimately their political goals will fail. I appreciate that Fuck wants to see the return of his homeland but by becoming an Islamopologist he harms his cause. He should print his pretty little post in a Japanese newspaper so that the people there can be more understanding of the barbarians who beheaded their countrymen.

I agree here,we are kinda saying the same thing BS.You just wrapped it up better than I.