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Charlie Hebdo Paris shooting: 12 dead after gunmen storm newspaper's HQ

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  • badbrainsbadbrains Posts: 10,255
    RR, I don't offend easy and you can't offend me cuz I do see u as a friend. Agree with a lot of what u wrote but I also will stand by my statement that the people are rising because they had ENOUGH. It was all fine and dandy when the Arab spring happened. But now that it's getting crazier and in parts of the western world, the masses who had NO PROB with the Arab rising are now having a huge prob with this new wave of violence. And you are correct, seems like it's gonna keep getting worse as this fucken cycle continues. Don't these fat cats get tired of this game? Can't we change the game out of boredom? I'm sick and tired of hearing and seeing war EVERY WHERE.
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,083
    Bang on rr
  • oftenreadingoftenreading Victoria, BCPosts: 12,458
    fuck wrote: »
    caifan82 wrote: »
    fuck wrote: »
    It's incredible that we can question so many things in our society (religion, etc.) and yet hold up other ideals in such dogmatic ways without questioning them as well!

    Just a comment: that's the thing with science...It IS ALWAYS QUESTIONED. As you said it yourself, it's all theories.
    Theories get disproven and new ones are formulated all the time. Evolution and gravity for example, even though they SEEM to be correct and have been around for a long time, are still theories.
    No one knows how the universe works, and yeah, I guess I prefer science's theories to religion's stories... but that's because science never settles with anything. It IS flawed. Yet it keeps striving to get better.
    Maybe tomorrow some dude in India will find that imaginary numbers are a load of crap... And that's fine! We will have a new theory to work on. But to settle on something, written thousands of years ago as gospel? I could never accept that…
    Certain aspects of science are questioned, sure, but can anyone reasonably question the idea of a black hole, gravity, evolution, or any thing else in science that you insist are "theories"? It's funny that evolution is treated as both a "theory" and a "fact" whenever it is convenient to treat it as such.
    The fact is that most people who question these theories would be laughed out of the room. Why? Because unless you have another theory to present in its place, then you're just questioning for questioning's sake. So it's not enough for one to say, "Prove to us that Evolution exists beyond a doubt!" for us to reject evolution (i.e., the onus is not on you to PROVE that evolution exists beyond a doubt) but then this person will have to prove why evolution is also false (i.e., he/she will have to prove something that they don't believe to exist in the first place, doesn't exist) to actually get anyone credible to listen to them.

    People who accept science believe in things written hundreds of years ago (the theory of evolution was presented hundreds of years ago...) and accept it as gospel. Do you honestly believe someone will come along and prove that evolution is false? I think someone like you (as me) is highly doubtful of that...

    While the basics of the theory of evolution were presented in the mid-19th century, there have certainly been major revisions over time and scientists the world over continue to research and refine aspects of evolutionary theory, particularly using more precise genetic techniques. Evolution in many species is demonstrably true and can be observed experimentally. So no, I suspect the larger theory won't be proven false, but that doesn't mean that it is "accepted as gospel" as you suggest; it's a work in progress, like all areas of science.
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    So RR and BB think it fair to say both sides are fucked up. So the question becomes how do we break the cycle? Not sure we can.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    callen wrote: »
    So RR and BB think it fair to say both sides are fucked up. So the question becomes how do we break the cycle? Not sure we can.

    It's not going to happen Cal.Not anytime soon anyway.Im afraid it's going to get much worse.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon HeadstoniaPosts: 28,073
    fuck wrote: »
    caifan82 wrote: »
    fuck wrote: »
    It's incredible that we can question so many things in our society (religion, etc.) and yet hold up other ideals in such dogmatic ways without questioning them as well!

    Just a comment: that's the thing with science...It IS ALWAYS QUESTIONED. As you said it yourself, it's all theories.
    Theories get disproven and new ones are formulated all the time. Evolution and gravity for example, even though they SEEM to be correct and have been around for a long time, are still theories.
    No one knows how the universe works, and yeah, I guess I prefer science's theories to religion's stories... but that's because science never settles with anything. It IS flawed. Yet it keeps striving to get better.
    Maybe tomorrow some dude in India will find that imaginary numbers are a load of crap... And that's fine! We will have a new theory to work on. But to settle on something, written thousands of years ago as gospel? I could never accept that…
    Certain aspects of science are questioned, sure, but can anyone reasonably question the idea of a black hole, gravity, evolution, or any thing else in science that you insist are "theories"? It's funny that evolution is treated as both a "theory" and a "fact" whenever it is convenient to treat it as such.
    The fact is that most people who question these theories would be laughed out of the room. Why? Because unless you have another theory to present in its place, then you're just questioning for questioning's sake. So it's not enough for one to say, "Prove to us that Evolution exists beyond a doubt!" for us to reject evolution (i.e., the onus is not on you to PROVE that evolution exists beyond a doubt) but then this person will have to prove why evolution is also false (i.e., he/she will have to prove something that they don't believe to exist in the first place, doesn't exist) to actually get anyone credible to listen to them.

    People who accept science believe in things written hundreds of years ago (the theory of evolution was presented hundreds of years ago...) and accept it as gospel. Do you honestly believe someone will come along and prove that evolution is false? I think someone like you (as me) is highly doubtful of that...

    While the basics of the theory of evolution were presented in the mid-19th century, there have certainly been major revisions over time and scientists the world over continue to research and refine aspects of evolutionary theory, particularly using more precise genetic techniques. Evolution in many species is demonstrably true and can be observed experimentally. So no, I suspect the larger theory won't be proven false, but that doesn't mean that it is "accepted as gospel" as you suggest; it's a work in progress, like all areas of science.

    exactly.

    (Track 10 of The Headstones' Nickels For Your Nightmares)


  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon HeadstoniaPosts: 28,073
    rr165892 wrote: »
    callen wrote: »
    So RR and BB think it fair to say both sides are fucked up. So the question becomes how do we break the cycle? Not sure we can.

    It's not going to happen Cal.Not anytime soon anyway.Im afraid it's going to get much worse.

    it will take a major revolution; a shift in not only global attitudes towards other cultures and breaking the cycle of violence, but our economy is built on nations fighting over resources. unless we can all come together and share shit equally (no, I'm not suggestiong global communism), it won't change. just the one fact alone that there are millions starving with no access to clean drinking water while we throw out bottled water if it's too warm and we flush our excrement into water cleaner than the water they drink speaks volumes.

    we need a zombie apocalypse.

    (Track 10 of The Headstones' Nickels For Your Nightmares)


  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    paulonious wrote: »
    rr165892 wrote: »
    callen wrote: »
    So RR and BB think it fair to say both sides are fucked up. So the question becomes how do we break the cycle? Not sure we can.

    It's not going to happen Cal.Not anytime soon anyway.Im afraid it's going to get much worse.

    it will take a major revolution; a shift in not only global attitudes towards other cultures and breaking the cycle of violence, but our economy is built on nations fighting over resources. unless we can all come together and share shit equally (no, I'm not suggestiong global communism), it won't change. just the one fact alone that there are millions starving with no access to clean drinking water while we throw out bottled water if it's too warm and we flush our excrement into water cleaner than the water they drink speaks volumes.

    we need a zombie apocalypse.

    In this situation you have IS threatening to behead the Japanese aid worker who was trying to do what you are calling for.He was part of a group distributing some 2million in aid to those in need.In the areas of need.His thanks will be headless body.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon HeadstoniaPosts: 28,073
    rr165892 wrote: »
    paulonious wrote: »
    rr165892 wrote: »
    callen wrote: »
    So RR and BB think it fair to say both sides are fucked up. So the question becomes how do we break the cycle? Not sure we can.

    It's not going to happen Cal.Not anytime soon anyway.Im afraid it's going to get much worse.

    it will take a major revolution; a shift in not only global attitudes towards other cultures and breaking the cycle of violence, but our economy is built on nations fighting over resources. unless we can all come together and share shit equally (no, I'm not suggestiong global communism), it won't change. just the one fact alone that there are millions starving with no access to clean drinking water while we throw out bottled water if it's too warm and we flush our excrement into water cleaner than the water they drink speaks volumes.

    we need a zombie apocalypse.

    In this situation you have IS threatening to behead the Japanese aid worker who was trying to do what you are calling for.He was part of a group distributing some 2million in aid to those in need.In the areas of need.His thanks will be headless body.

    unfortunately, every major cultural shift comes with casualties. we just need more people helping than hurting. and then it will stop.

    (Track 10 of The Headstones' Nickels For Your Nightmares)


  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    paulonious wrote: »
    rr165892 wrote: »
    paulonious wrote: »
    rr165892 wrote: »
    callen wrote: »
    So RR and BB think it fair to say both sides are fucked up. So the question becomes how do we break the cycle? Not sure we can.

    It's not going to happen Cal.Not anytime soon anyway.Im afraid it's going to get much worse.

    it will take a major revolution; a shift in not only global attitudes towards other cultures and breaking the cycle of violence, but our economy is built on nations fighting over resources. unless we can all come together and share shit equally (no, I'm not suggestiong global communism), it won't change. just the one fact alone that there are millions starving with no access to clean drinking water while we throw out bottled water if it's too warm and we flush our excrement into water cleaner than the water they drink speaks volumes.

    we need a zombie apocalypse.

    In this situation you have IS threatening to behead the Japanese aid worker who was trying to do what you are calling for.He was part of a group distributing some 2million in aid to those in need.In the areas of need.His thanks will be headless body.

    unfortunately, every major cultural shift comes with casualties. we just need more people helping than hurting. and then it will stop.

    Not so sure our help is welcome.
  • jeffbrjeffbr SeattlePosts: 7,177
    rr165892 wrote: »
    callen wrote: »
    So RR and BB think it fair to say both sides are fucked up. So the question becomes how do we break the cycle? Not sure we can.

    It's not going to happen Cal.Not anytime soon anyway.Im afraid it's going to get much worse.

    I agree. And today Joe Biden suggested that we need boots on the ground in Syria.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon HeadstoniaPosts: 28,073
    rr165892 wrote: »
    paulonious wrote: »
    rr165892 wrote: »
    paulonious wrote: »
    rr165892 wrote: »
    callen wrote: »
    So RR and BB think it fair to say both sides are fucked up. So the question becomes how do we break the cycle? Not sure we can.

    It's not going to happen Cal.Not anytime soon anyway.Im afraid it's going to get much worse.

    it will take a major revolution; a shift in not only global attitudes towards other cultures and breaking the cycle of violence, but our economy is built on nations fighting over resources. unless we can all come together and share shit equally (no, I'm not suggestiong global communism), it won't change. just the one fact alone that there are millions starving with no access to clean drinking water while we throw out bottled water if it's too warm and we flush our excrement into water cleaner than the water they drink speaks volumes.

    we need a zombie apocalypse.

    In this situation you have IS threatening to behead the Japanese aid worker who was trying to do what you are calling for.He was part of a group distributing some 2million in aid to those in need.In the areas of need.His thanks will be headless body.

    unfortunately, every major cultural shift comes with casualties. we just need more people helping than hurting. and then it will stop.

    Not so sure our help is welcome.

    I wasn't referring to the type of "help" the US were giving the Iraqis, if that is what you are getting at.

    if not, yes, even aid workers aren't welcome to the oppressors. But helping the innocent is probably more effective than warring with their oppressors, don't you think?

    (Track 10 of The Headstones' Nickels For Your Nightmares)


  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    paulonious wrote: »
    rr165892 wrote: »
    paulonious wrote: »
    rr165892 wrote: »
    paulonious wrote: »
    rr165892 wrote: »
    callen wrote: »
    So RR and BB think it fair to say both sides are fucked up. So the question becomes how do we break the cycle? Not sure we can.

    It's not going to happen Cal.Not anytime soon anyway.Im afraid it's going to get much worse.

    it will take a major revolution; a shift in not only global attitudes towards other cultures and breaking the cycle of violence, but our economy is built on nations fighting over resources. unless we can all come together and share shit equally (no, I'm not suggestiong global communism), it won't change. just the one fact alone that there are millions starving with no access to clean drinking water while we throw out bottled water if it's too warm and we flush our excrement into water cleaner than the water they drink speaks volumes.

    we need a zombie apocalypse.

    In this situation you have IS threatening to behead the Japanese aid worker who was trying to do what you are calling for.He was part of a group distributing some 2million in aid to those in need.In the areas of need.His thanks will be headless body.

    unfortunately, every major cultural shift comes with casualties. we just need more people helping than hurting. and then it will stop.

    Not so sure our help is welcome.

    I wasn't referring to the type of "help" the US were giving the Iraqis, if that is what you are getting at.

    if not, yes, even aid workers aren't welcome to the oppressors. But helping the innocent is probably more effective than warring with their oppressors, don't you think?

    Indeed
  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain.Posts: 35,008
    ^^^ Sounds good to me too. Aggressive moves will only nip us in the butt down the road. We (meaning all or most) will either learn to be helpful and cooperative or the whole house of cards will fall down and who know what will be left when the dust settles.

    Doesn't it seem like we're setting the stage for the latter- the collapse of civilization as we know it? Is that too pessimistic? I don't mean it to be- it's just how it looks a lot of the time.
    "I believe in the mystery, and I don't want to take it any further than that. Maybe what I mean by that is love."
    -John Densmore











  • mickeyratmickeyrat Posts: 22,680
    As we know it. Might not be a bad thing.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    I didn't want to start a whole new thread,but I found this quite revealing.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2015/01/21/how-saudi-arabias-harsh-legal-punishments-compare-to-the-islamic-states/

    Sounds like just good clean,wholesome family fun in the Kingdom.If change is to had in the Islamic fundamentalist world,IMO it must start here.Saudi Arabia must be the catalyst for reform and change in this archaic backwards perverted mind set.They must lead the charge for tolerance and equality in the Muslim world.
  • AafkeAafke Posts: 1,216
    edited January 2015
    Indeed
    Post edited by Aafke on
    Waves_zps6b028461.jpg
    "The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
    "Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    badbrains wrote: »
    Do u mean science or since? I'm confused with your spelling and what u mean GF?

    HAHHAHHHAHHAHHHAHHHH thanks bro ! I think maybe Webster should have contacted me before printing .

    Godfather.

  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,572
    Good post RR. Fundamentalism is the real enemy IMO.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 18,881
    callen wrote: »
    So RR and BB think it fair to say both sides are fucked up. So the question becomes how do we break the cycle? Not sure we can.
    rr165892 wrote: »
    I didn't want to start a whole new thread,but I found this quite revealing.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2015/01/21/how-saudi-arabias-harsh-legal-punishments-compare-to-the-islamic-states/

    Sounds like just good clean,wholesome family fun in the Kingdom.If change is to had in the Islamic fundamentalist world,IMO it must start here.Saudi Arabia must be the catalyst for reform and change in this archaic backwards perverted mind set.They must lead the charge for tolerance and equality in the Muslim world.

    Kinda highlights how nuts ISIS is if a country that thinks it's a good idea to build a giant wall to keep them out thinks it's OK to give a dude 1000 public floggings for being blasphemous on a blog.

    Hallelujah! Holy shit! Where's the Tylenol?
  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    Look Russ no lines!
  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    rgambs wrote: »
    Good post RR. Fundamentalism is the real enemy IMO.

    U got that right my bearded friend.
  • HughFreakingDillonHughFreakingDillon HeadstoniaPosts: 28,073
    if fundamentalism is the real enemy, which I agree with, there's really nothing that can be done about that, am I right? I mean, we all come from a long line of fundamentalists, don't we? our culture had to evolve away from that naturally, as in not being bombed away from it. the problem is, centralized fundamentalism wasn't as big a problem as global fundamentalism is, and by that I mean our fundamentalist ancestors didn't have the "reach" that current ones do. do we let those cultures evolve naturally, or because of the current time period we're in, do we have to run interference? which one will cause the least amount of casualties?
    (Track 10 of The Headstones' Nickels For Your Nightmares)


  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,572
    I agree Paul O'Nius... There isn't much hope for us on the level of species!
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • fuckfuck Posts: 4,069
    edited January 2015
    rr165892 wrote: »
    When you give understanding to the reason why they commit these acts you on a subconscience (or not) level are giving some form of silent support.It must be stopped from within.Nonexcuses can be made,No finger pointing can be cast at any other people or religion.You guys have a little house cleaning that is needed and only you can clean it right.
    Maybe start with the backwards suppressive societies with Middle East that fuel hatred and bigotry.Hello Saudi Arabia.
    this whole thing saddens me and I really worry that escalation and more divisive actions could be in our near future.I could see more violent acts,maybe on American soil and then the Muslim backlash and a McCarthy like situation with innocent everyday Muslims being the victims of fear.
    Sorry for the late response rr. I have been working a lot this past week.
    First, let me say that I do appreciate the sincerity of the past few posts. Your ideas are genuinely expressed and come across as such. But I'm afraid that they are terribly misguided.
    Firstly, trying to understand where the jihadi mindset comes from does not remotely suggest we are excusing or justifying the behavior. As a student of history I was fascinated with Nazism because it was incredible to me the level of fascism that infected the German people and led to some of the worst atrocities committed. How can a people be driven to support something like this? To actively participate in it? When I, as a Palestinian, explain Zionism, I always explain that it came out of the insane nationalism and nation-state formation, along with colonialism, from Europe. It incorporated these concepts. It also came from the awful anti-Semitism that Jews in Europe faced. Does that JUSTIFY or EXCUSE the crimes that the fascist colonialist ideology of Zionism has imposed on the Palestinians? of course not. But it allows us an opportunity to understand it, which can help us counter it, and then prevent it in the future.

    Now to the subject at hand. FYI: It's not merely "a bomb" that was dropped "in the first gulf war" or a land that was colonized 100 years ago. Bombs are still being dropped now. Land is still being colonized now. Yes, it's not as obvious as before, and being Americans we're given the comfort of being able to ignore that this is happening. But to suggest that Muslims need to simply "forget" what happened 100 years ago as if it is not happening today is to ignore the reality they face today. It's like when people tell Palestinians to "move on" from the Nakba since it happened nearly 70 years ago, ignoring the fact that nearly 3 million Palestinians still languish in refugee camps BECAUSE of their expulsion by Zionist Israelis and Israel's refusal to allow them back in, and it also ignores the ongoing Nakba (expulsions and murder) going on today. These aren't anachronistic ideas, these are realities Muslims face today.

    It's not just American bombs that drives these people, it's also the political repression and lack of political openness in the Middle East being imposed upon them by American-supported dictators. Look at Egypt. Islamists there tried the democratic process, they won through democratic means in the ballot box, and tried to work within the system. When General Sisi and the Egyptian military overthrew the democratically-elected Islamist president and began massacring his supporters in the streets, where do you think the military got these weapons from? The US gives Egypt $1 billion of military aid every year. What lesson does this teach Islamists? It teaches them that democracy is a lie. In this world, only those that the powerful favor can enjoy democracy. If the West doesn't like you, you're out. The same thing happened in Algeria in 1992: Islamists won elections, the military intervened and a civil war broke out. Same thing with Hamas in 2006. They went to the ballot box, and the West tried to intervene.

    So you have the moderate Islamists who try democracy and reject violence, and then you have the crazy Al Qaeda types who reject democracy and promote violence. When the West invades Iraq, supports military coups, and so on, whose argument do you think is promoted? Al Qaeda says, "What did we tell you? There's no such thing as democracy."

    At the end of the day, you have to understand these political contexts because the grievance of these violent extremists IS political, NOT religious. They coat them in religious terms - of course - but it's political at the end of the day. Bin Laden made it very clear that US support for Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestinians was why he attacked (along with the presence of US military bases in Saudi Arabia, etc.). These are all political grievances.

    Why are US relations with Iran so bad? Why did Iranians hold embassy staff hostage in 1979? It was all political reasons, not because they happen to call themselves an Islamic Republic. It was because the US toppled the democratically-elected president in Iran in the 1950s and eventually the Iranians rebelled, overthrew the Shah dictator that the US was supporting, and then there was a backlash.

    Certainly, Muslims need to make it clear that violence is not the way. But guess what? We do! But we are trapped. We are trapped by Westerners on the one side who support these imperial policies (these are only a few examples above of a list of many, many, many more) and those on the other side who say "This world is about power, and you can't advocate tolerance and dialogue while the other side is killing you."

    I find it incredibly ironic when Westerners tell Muslims to speak up and condemn extremists, when they aren't doing their part: what are you telling YOUR government about its policies in the Middle East? About its support for the Egyptian dictator? About its support for Saudi Arabia which not only imposes its severe interpretation of Islam (which is also political in many ways: it suppresses the population and secures autocratic rule) but also exports it elsewhere? About its support for Israel which just massacred over 500 children on your TV screen last summer?

    Stop asking Muslims what they're doing. What are YOU doing?

    EDIT: Also, rr, this only scratches the surface. The policies imposed on Middle Eastern countries since the days that the colonial powers were there (~150 years ago) still play a VERY important part today. I understand why you might not see it - the reality you grew up, the environment, etc., is all just so different - but this is a reality for many people. The nation-state system, the system of governance and all that you're used to came naturally in the West. It developed slowly. The process however was imposed on Arab and other Muslim countries so suddenly, where power was swallowed up by the government of this new "nation" idea, and thus the people were made subject to the whim of this state. The effects of this are still being felt today and will for a while now. That's why I think ISIS is so fascinating -- they declare themselves to be returning to the "old" Islam, the "caliphate" and yet they insist they are a "state"! They claim to be traditional but they coat themselves in modern terms. They are modernized people who are products of modernity, products of the West, of Europe, etc. They are as much a "Western" product as they are a "Muslim" product and - most of all - a product of the modern world!
    Post edited by fuck on
  • fuckfuck Posts: 4,069
    paulonious wrote: »
    if fundamentalism is the real enemy, which I agree with, there's really nothing that can be done about that, am I right? I mean, we all come from a long line of fundamentalists, don't we? our culture had to evolve away from that naturally, as in not being bombed away from it. the problem is, centralized fundamentalism wasn't as big a problem as global fundamentalism is, and by that I mean our fundamentalist ancestors didn't have the "reach" that current ones do. do we let those cultures evolve naturally, or because of the current time period we're in, do we have to run interference? which one will cause the least amount of casualties?
    It's not the real enemy though. Fundamentalism is a Western concept that only applies to Christianity, and in some cases to Judaism. It does not apply to Islam. All Muslims are "fundamentalists" on some level. We follow the "fundamentals" of the faith, of the text. I reject the idea that to be a "good" Muslim we have to reject fundamental parts of our faith. This is not the way forward, to impose a good Muslim/bad Muslim dichotomy. The issues are political. Address the political grievances, and religious justification for violence will fade because reasons for violence in general will fade.
  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    Fuck,I got more questions/thoughts here,but not a lot of time.so I'll get back to ya Tmorro.
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    Fuck,

    Human nature. All sides.

    Convinced that any family on this planet would accept dinner invitation from another with direct invitation.

    Csllen
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • BS44325BS44325 Posts: 6,083
    "When I, as a Palestinian, explain Zionism, I always explain that it came out of the insane nationalism and nation-state formation, along with colonialism, from Europe."

    That's your problem right there Fuck. That is just wrong, wrong, wrong.
  • fuckfuck Posts: 4,069
    BS44325 wrote: »
    "When I, as a Palestinian, explain Zionism, I always explain that it came out of the insane nationalism and nation-state formation, along with colonialism, from Europe."

    That's your problem right there Fuck. That is just wrong, wrong, wrong.

    You make a compelling argument.
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