2 cops shot in Brooklyn

brianlux

paulonious wrote: »

I'm not sure why it's so difficult to recruit quality individuals in the US to the police force, when in Canada it's so difficult to get in.

Excellent question, Paulonius. I'd very much like to know the answer to it.

ldent42

How well does the Canadian force pay?

NYPD don't get paid shit to start off with. Even if you get promoted, it's not like they're making lawyer bank. You have to truly WANT to be a cop, or you're just hanging your future on the early retirement benefit.

fife

ldent42 wrote: »

How well does the Canadian force pay?

NYPD don't get paid shit to start off with. Even if you get promoted, it's not like they're making lawyer bank. You have to truly WANT to be a cop, or you're just hanging your future on the early retirement benefit.

to answer your question about cops in Canad it depends on what province you are a cop in.

the ave is 60 to 70 k a year plus benefits.

New RCMP constables receive a base salary of $48,946. Usually after about 36 months of service, they make approximately $79,308 a year.

Cadets in training with the Toronto Police Service can expect to start at $53,605 per year and advance to $59,574 as a 4th class constable. (1st class constables make $85,106.)

rgambs

I think thats a good deal better than the States. Should be better yet, we pay lawyers more to defend our legal rights than we pay the police to protect our bodies and lives and we wonder why we have problems.

brianlux

rgambs wrote: »

I think thats a good deal better than the States. Should be better yet, we pay lawyers more to defend our legal rights than we pay the police to protect our bodies and lives and we wonder why we have problems.

This is true. Same with teachers. We pay poor teacher salaries and then wonder why our educational system is ranked so relatively low for a country with our wealth. Our priorities in the U.S. are all out of whack and look at what we are becoming. It's sad.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

rgambs wrote: »

Pjfan, my point was self-contained and self-evident, nothing was implied so no clarification is needed.
Thirtybills, I get what you are saying, but I don't think the comparison to Muslims is all that valid. The reason folks get upset with that is that Muslim is not the primary descriptor for the people in question when they belong to terrorists groups, it is secondary. What would you have the thread names that deal with the large and considerable problem of police brutality be? What substitute for each of the five examples would you give that would be more sensitive.

I think you the comparison is valid. The Muslim faith is being attacked and it is the sensationalized cases that are used as support and ammunition for the assertions that are being made- just the same as the police profession is being attacked. In both scenarios, good people are unjustly painted with the same brush through association with a tiny representation of its population.

If you were to be fair, you would acknowledge that this is the case. Don't make me go back through the countless threads to offer 1,000 (or more) very disparaging remarks made- by good people no less- that simply fail to keep things in perspective by generalizing to a degree that borders on reckless. And this has occurred on a forum where people are generally well spoken and reasonable. Imagine the ideas being formulated in circles where people do not practice critical thinking? I can imagine... think of the youtube video submission a dozen or so posts back where mindless idiots were marching through the streets chanting "We want dead cops."

Remember... I have said that there is a racial inequality; however, I don't think that the police are solely responsible for this fact. Socioeconomics has much more to do with the racial inequalities we bear witness to. And yes... this is a problem, but it cannot be solved by police patience. Look to your social programming for answers... not the police at the point of a crime.

Remember also that in the cases where excessive force was used... I have said police need to be held accountable. I am not an advocate of a police force operating with impunity. I am saddened and angry with the 12 year old case (and some others- namely Kelly Thomas); yet at the same time, I understand Wilson's response in the Brown case. Each case is a unique case and compared to the countless good police work that is happening right at this moment... it is not prudent to suggest a disturbing trend is occurring and generating a groundswell of support for the notion that cops are out of control.

As for the exercise you have requested of me (I offered only 4 thread titles):

1. another death, police not indicted- "questionable finding in homicide case involving cop" (exaggeration exercised here with 'another'- implication? happens so much we shouldn't be surprised... just like the thread 'another gun death in USA').

2. police abuse- there's no need for such a general and inflammatory thread when each case presented in it also has its unique thread as well. If each case was presented in this thread alone... then the thread title would be fine.

3. hands up don't shoot- fair enough... however, given it's in the midst of several others it has the effect of piling on.

4. police shoot kid in Cleveland- "police man shoots kid in Cleveland" (the other thread title makes it sound as if a group of police were responsible for the event when it was one poor officer... again, a broad statement that implicates many).


* Sorry for long post.

rgambs

Good post! I don't think the changes improve the thread titles much. "Questionable finding in homicide case involving cop" completely ignores the entirely undeniable tendancy of cops to not be indicted time and time again when evidence enough exists to go trial.
The addition of man on the last one does the same, it subtracts what blame is owed to his partner and department for not managing him properly, and the blame that followed when the police system in general rallied behind him to offer support and protect him from indictment.
As Drowned noted in a great post, the failure of hundreds of thousands of police officers to report the improper behavior rhey witness gives them an amount of culpability. Was every Nazi soldier and SS member a torturer and murderer? No, but do they all share a slice of the responsibility for what happened in front of them? Yes, of course they do.

rgambs

To be clear, the blame I am spreading is only a small fraction, and as always, the lion's share goes to the actual perpetrators.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

rgambs wrote: »

Good post! I don't think the changes improve the thread titles much. "Questionable finding in homicide case involving cop" completely ignores the entirely undeniable tendancy of cops to not be indicted time and time again when evidence enough exists to go trial.
The addition of man on the last one does the same, it subtracts what blame is owed to his partner and department for not managing him properly, and the blame that followed when the police system in general rallied behind him to offer support and protect him from indictment.
As Drowned noted in a great post, the failure of hundreds of thousands of police officers to report the improper behavior rhey witness gives them an amount of culpability. Was every Nazi soldier and SS member a torturer and murderer? No, but do they all share a slice of the responsibility for what happened in front of them? Yes, of course they do.

I read a great book (dry... but super informative) called Ordinary Men. It detailed a German Reserve Police Battalion that was deployed to 'cleanse' a town of its Jews.

The unit never knew what it was going to do as it suited up and reported for duty, but the details were laid out once they were in uniform, armed, in formation, and given their mandate. The men were chagrined, but the structural order of the military and the pressures upon them left them feeling powerless and they carried out their distasteful orders- many lamenting this after the fact.

Essentially, the book tries to detail why the men carried out their orders. It's just not so simple as it might seem. Referencing various psychological and sociological theories as well as significant studies (such as the Stanford electrical shock study)... among several findings it suggests that people within clinical or institutional settings conform very quickly.

What am I saying? I guess I'm agreeing with you to some degree that they do "share a slice of the responsibility"; however, it is the statistical exception that has an individual break free from the systemic structures to do the right thing. As brave as these individuals are... it doesn't mean the others that haven't are willfully ignorant or ill-spirited- it means they are human and susceptible to human nature.

rgambs

Oh hell yeah there is some powerful psychology going on with conformity. I read one, not dry but disorganized, called "Seduced by Hitler" that dealt with the same issue across all facets of German and European society. I did a research paper on the Stanford experiment, it's a crazy and very interesting topic. It really defines for me what the utmost expression of courage is, to stand against your peers.

callen

Gambs but the perps are just the products of our society.

Always thought how the US is young and doesn't really have a culture. Like France or Mexico Unfortunately feel I now do see the US culture. Gods, guns, haves and have nots with wonderful capitalism keeping it going.

HughFreakingDillon

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote: »

paulonious wrote: »

I'm not sure why it's so difficult to recruit quality individuals in the US to the police force, when in Canada it's so difficult to get in.

I'll speculate...

Canada doesn't feature the same inherent threats as the US does: no guns, very little poverty, and no blatant racism. I'd rather be an underwater welder than a cop in the US.

The people that I associate with never speak poorly of the police. The amount of disrespect the US faction of the 10C 'generally' has for it's working police is shocking. Why would young people be interested in law enforcement when it seems to be viewed it so negatively?

Further, I feel that the Canadian police (the RCMP anyways) are paid reasonably well and generously compared to our southern counterparts.

Of course any or all of the above could be wrong!

I would disagree with very little poverty and no blatant racism in Canada. police/first nations relations are super tense, especially in reserve country (at least in Manitoba). no, there's very little gun violence, but people who live on reserves have, in some cases, not even had access to clean water in decades.

HughFreakingDillon

I think it can also be a cultural thing in the US. with the frame of mind of the US constitution and personal freedoms and rights, it's not surprising that so many people don't like the police down there, as they believe every time they are asked a question by a police officer that their rights to privacy and personal freedom are being violated. I personally don't give a shit if a cop stops me to ask a question, which, if I'm doing nothing wrong, has never happened. in 99% of cases, if you are respectful, you get the same in return (in my Canadian experience). if a cop pulls me over and asks me where I'm headed for no apparent reason, yeah, I'd be annoyed, but I'd probably answer anyway because who gives a shit.

HughFreakingDillon

fife wrote: »

ldent42 wrote: »

How well does the Canadian force pay?

NYPD don't get paid shit to start off with. Even if you get promoted, it's not like they're making lawyer bank. You have to truly WANT to be a cop, or you're just hanging your future on the early retirement benefit.

to answer your question about cops in Canad it depends on what province you are a cop in.

the ave is 60 to 70 k a year plus benefits.

New RCMP constables receive a base salary of $48,946. Usually after about 36 months of service, they make approximately $79,308 a year.

Cadets in training with the Toronto Police Service can expect to start at $53,605 per year and advance to $59,574 as a 4th class constable. (1st class constables make $85,106.)

local police in winnipeg start a good deal lower (to my knowledge) than Toronto, but they go up quick. I think they start at something like 40, but after 5 years hit 60 or something. and that's not counting promotions or job changes. it doesn't take long. and I think they are worth every penny and more.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

paulonious wrote: »

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote: »

paulonious wrote: »

I'm not sure why it's so difficult to recruit quality individuals in the US to the police force, when in Canada it's so difficult to get in.

I'll speculate...

Canada doesn't feature the same inherent threats as the US does: no guns, very little poverty, and no blatant racism. I'd rather be an underwater welder than a cop in the US.

The people that I associate with never speak poorly of the police. The amount of disrespect the US faction of the 10C 'generally' has for it's working police is shocking. Why would young people be interested in law enforcement when it seems to be viewed it so negatively?

Further, I feel that the Canadian police (the RCMP anyways) are paid reasonably well and generously compared to our southern counterparts.

Of course any or all of the above could be wrong!

I would disagree with very little poverty and no blatant racism in Canada. police/first nations relations are super tense, especially in reserve country (at least in Manitoba). no, there's very little gun violence, but people who live on reserves have, in some cases, not even had access to clean water in decades.

I've heard that about some of the eastern provinces. This is unfortunate.

In British Columbia, it seems our First Nations groups are becoming very progressive: many bands (not all mind you) have begun exploiting the advantages afforded to them by law and are beginning to prosper in the areas of business and development as a result.

I also see a concerted effort to develop relationships with schools and school boards to accommodate First Nations kids- a major step in developing trust that was lost decades ago.

Strong and selfless leadership has developed in many situations as well that sees federal disbursements more equitably distributed.

Cliffy6745

muskydan wrote: »

Here is something a NYC policeman just wrote. Unfortunately this is ever growing attitude loads of working copper's I work with are feeling right now as am I. I sure hope things chance cause if we proceed down this path American society is going to have a very big problem. When the Bad guys no longer fear the Police society suffers most…trust me. Again, take it for what it's worth…this is the true feeling's of a NYC working police….

WAAR Media has received the following statement from a current NYPD Police Officer under the condition of anonymity. Please be advised the post contains strong language and profanity which though not typical of WAAR posts, we felt was important to post in a version that was unedited.

* Al Sharpton’s name is left as it was typed as NYPD officers sometimes refer to Mr. Sharpton as the Sharp ton.

When I was a kid I’d see my dad come home with his gun and shield, and I was beyond intrigued. He was not only my hero, but the city’s. I couldn’t wait to grow up and be a cop. Just like my dad and my older brother. I didn’t know what the pay or the benefits were, I just wanted to help people. Fast forward 20+ years and here I am. Except I’m no ones hero, actually I’m the enemy.

It wasn’t until I graduated the academy and went out on the street I realized, wow, where the fuck am I? Dead bodies, homicides, drugs, guns. At first it was fun. A cat and mouse game. I get the bad guy off the street and it saves the city. As the years progressed and the neighborhoods I worked in got worse, slowly that bad guy I hunted transitioned. He was no longer a guy with a gun in his baggy pants, he was me. I was hated. By every single person I encountered. No matter what I did.

There were days I’d get my ass kicked. Days I’d get murderers and rapists off the street. It didn’t matter. I was a white Irish cop, the devil. It didn’t matter I tried in vain to give CPR to a dying baby, I was still the enemy a minute later. But at the end of the day the bad guys still feared us and that’s all that mattered.

Fast forward to the liberal anti-cop movement. City councils, CCRB, Al Sharp ton. Nobody gave a fuck that every night I saw a different black man take a bullet, they just cared that it was not mine. Now I get in trouble for cursing. What? If your wrestling with a mope with a gun are you gonna curse? Are you gonna fight back? Of course cause I’m human. Suddenly though, I can’t even be human. Those rights that are demanded by these protesters, well they’re everyone’s but mine.

I swore I’d never become that cop. That old, angry, numb socially uncouth cop. Well now I make that cop look like mother Theresa. Theres only so much a person can take before they shut down. No one calls 911 for good things. It’s a daily roller coaster of bad to horrific and it never gets better.

You take this job and you know there’s a chance you can die, obviously. But you think of it as, “OK , I’m in this gun battle with a bank robber and I die in glory.” You don’t sign up for “I’m gonna be sitting in my patrol car eating lunch and get executed from behind.” Give me a chance. A chance to fight back you fuckin coward. They never had a chance. And it eats me up inside.

I’m sick over it. I didn’t know them but I know them. They’re me. I’m them. I play it over and over again in my head and it makes me sick. Yeah that heartless animal murdered them, but he didn’t act alone. The city of New York run by its disgrace of a Mayor, di Blasio murdered them too. Here’s a man who stands in front of his city and tells them he’s afraid his son will get killed by a cop, all the while he has cops guarding his son 24/7. He enticed a race war. He allows a city to protest for a criminal and chant they want dead cops. Well they got what they wanted didn’t they? Right before Christmas, 2 funerals. A husband, a father, a son.

Every single day at work I encounter real bad guys. And guess what? They know they’ve won. They know we are hesitant. That fear is gone. Now that fear is in us. I have two little kids at home. I’m gonna leave them parentless for what? A city that hates me? Condemns me? Leave my spouse a single parent for a city that spits on me? It’s not worth it anymore.

I don’t know what’s going to happen but I do know this. You can curse us, spit on us, even fight us, but the day you kill us is the day you awake a sleeping giant. We were executed. We won’t be executed again. We are in hell right now, but if you think we are gonna sit back and get murdered you’re wrong. Their blood is on di Blasios hands. He has single handily divided the city. Not just black and white but black and blue. He stands next to Sharp ton, a man who has professed his anti-white anti-Semitic rants for decades. It’s egregious. Despicable. It’s almost like I’m in a different world. When the fuck did I become the bad guy? When the fuck did they let bad guys run the city?

So I never got to become that hero like my dad. But I got to share the same uniform as 2 of them-Ramos and Liu. Remember their names. They were murdered by the city of New York. The great city that I swore to protect, that never protected us back. Their execution will live heavy in my heart forever. I’ve officially lost my faith in mankind. But I haven’t yet lost my faith in God. And as I get dressed every day and put my vest on, I say a prayer to God, “Lead us to a place, guide us with your grace, to a place where we’ll be safe.” I don’t need to be a hero anymore, I just want to go home.

This dude doesn't seem to have a very good grasp of the history of the NYPD and their relationship with the community.

josevolution

As long as the " Us against them mentality " exist in the community's most affected nothing will ever change !!!!

muskydan

You are right, he probably has to grasp of the community. His Dad was not only the Police, but he is currently a working coppers NYC. Sounds like No grasp at all of the community...but CNBC and CNN do... That cool aide must taste real nice. Yikes

Thirty Bills Unpaid

I spoke with my father in law last night about the situation in the US. He's a retired police officer.

Among several things, he suggested a few things that make complete sense:

1. You have got to be an idiot to point a gun at a police officer and not expect to get shot. There's simply no way a cop is going to place the life of someone potentially shooting at them over their own.

2. Cops in the US have to be highly cognizant of the fact that there are heightened tensions right now. We would never hear of the countless incidents throughout the country that ended without a death, but easily could have if not handled professionally. The landmark cases cannot be the ones used to characterize a nation's entire police force.

3. Cops must be held accountable for criminal behavior while working. If the citizen unrest results in this occurring, then such efforts can be said to have had a positive effect. If the unrest results in a tainted attitude towards those who serve, the exercise will have had a damaging effect.

To this, I again suggest we be careful in our discussions to limit frustrations to processes and individuals instead of making general assertions that have the effect of discrediting the overwhelming majority of cops who perform admirably and on a daily basis. Demanding that an independent agency handle possible cop abuse cases is miles different than marching through streets demanding you want dead cops (this attitude is spawned from unhealthy table talk and misdirected tensions).

hedonist

Excellent post, Thirty. Your father-in-law is a wise man.