Hands up dont shoot!

rr165892

muskydan said:

rr165892 said:

Ben,In fairness Musky has stated several times he was all for body cameras.And I agree with Last-12.Our forum here is made for multiple points of view.I welcome this, as it only makes all of us smarter and keeps the conversation fresh.Dans got a tough beat and has seen some bad shit.That kind of violence and despair,death of kids,etc over time wears one ones soul.So let's keep that in mind before some of you pounce.
Everybody knows Muskys problem is not his job or view on life,it's his damn horrendous taste in College teams.Bama,Really dude? I thought you were better then that.sheesh.

Well i dated a nice southern girl from Tuscaloosa AL for awhile and was able to attend a few Bama games over the years. Being a life long Cubs and Bears fan I have not had much to feel good about in my sports world, thank God for the Blackhawks. My college suxs at sports so its nice to support a winner since I am so used to supporting losers all the time. However I do have a chubby for What the Cubs have been up to lately…..expecting blue balls but I know all about that..lol
Who is your team rr?? and thanks for your backup…I just can't get myself to answer some people on here cause no matter what I say I am a racist PIG……I deal with that attitude everyday and can ignore it here no sweat, but not on the street cause that can get your ass killed…..anyhow,I maybe a realistic PIG, but definitely not a racist PIG….But as we know, if you put down Barry and are white, well ya know…Time for a few beers and Bear down..

Your Cubbies got a great one with Merlot Joe.What a manager and quite the character.I think this is the one!
I am FSU Noles fan,A die hard ,lifelong,Bleed cream sickle Orange,red and Pewter Tampa Bay Buccaneers (suckaneers)and Florida Panthers on the Ice.I don't care much for hoops on the pro level(I live in Heat country) but love some March Madness.And with baseball I used to be a Florida Marlins fan until the went all crazy Miami hip hop.Now I can't stand the logo or the goofy park and usually pull for the Cubs,Rays or Cards(Our spring training home team).We also live in an area saturated with pro and high level D1 athletes and we run into them at the gym all the time.So we follow and route for a few of them we gotten to know,on the teams they play for.But that's all over the map and with a lot of them that changes yearly.But it's fun

rr165892

benjs said:

muskydan - I missed the part where someone called you a pig, but my sincere apologies you had to take that. I personally owe you an apology as well for saying you were against checks and balances - as rr rightly stated, you were for body cameras, which is great to hear. Still think your attitude could use an adjustment, but I'm sure mine can too. Echoing what hedonist said (and extending to all the fine folks around here), I hope you all get to spend some well-earned quality time with your friends and families over the next coming weeks.

Always classy Ben.

callen

There are both good and bad people in every demographic. Once one makes the leap that all are bad then that's a problem. When it's a police officer it's worse and downright dangerous.

We have a system that works, mostly. Disbanding or not allowing police to protect themselves isn't realistic. We should though not protect officers if they do bad. Simple really.

Now as stated before, the police are the scapegoat for our messed up society. We need to make changes to education. After school programs. Opportunities. Ironic that many that back police (not referring to anyone on this board) are the racists that want to spend no money helping make this happen. They are part of the problem. And no not talking about more "handouts".

benjs

callen said:

There are both good and bad people in every demographic. Once one makes the leap that all are bad then that's a problem. When it's a police officer it's worse and downright dangerous.

We have a system that works, mostly. Disbanding or not allowing police to protect themselves isn't realistic. We should though not protect officers if they do bad. Simple really.

Now as stated before, the police are the scapegoat for our messed up society. We need to make changes to education. After school programs. Opportunities. Ironic that many that back police (not referring to anyone on this board) are the racists that want to spend no money helping make this happen. They are part of the problem. And no not talking about more "handouts".

Well put, Callen. You're right - we shouldn't be so hasty to place the blame exclusively on the police force: we have a broken society, and it's not just the police that make that so.

muskydan

Well thank for the concern... I actually just got back from Vegas yesterday and booked Hawaii today for my Annual surfing trip on Kauai in Late Jan then over to Thailand to visit some pals. I am all good, I lots a love all the way around...other than my Bears.

I read something today on a very popular Chicago Cop blog that at first really pissed me off, but after thinking about it for awhile I figured could help people on here wrap their brain around what I mean by saying society will be getting the Policing they are demanding...or De-policing" ..This attitude goes against every reason why I became the police, but I am wiser and Unfortionately older now and realize what is at stake. Being Proactive Police not only is Personally dangerous for an officer, but it could be career suicide.

So here is the facticious, but very real senerio for Ya....take it for what it's worth


Someone Has Seen the Future!
And it looks like this:
Any Street, Anywhere USA

Victim: Officer, officer! That man just stole my purse!

Officer: Good morning ma'm, or does that pronoun offend you. If so, please advise me of the correct pronoun I may use in order to not....

victim: Officer, you're not listening to me! That man stole my purse.

officer: That gentleman across the street?

Victim: Yeah, that's him.

officer: Okay, let me go talk to him.

victim: He's a big guy, don't you want some help?

Officer: Oh no, anything that might give the appearance of a show of force isn't allowed.
Officer leaves to talk to the alleged suspect and then returns:
Officer: Is it a red purse with black trim and brass colored clasp with the initials MS on the side?

Victim: That's it, my name is Mary Smith and those are my initials. That's my purse.

Officer: I figured it was yours, he doesn't look like the purse type. The problem is he doesn't want to give it back.

Victim: Well, arrest him, he robbed me of that purse. He punched me, knocked me down and then took my purse. Look at this bruise on my arm, and I'm bleeding from my forehead.

Officer: I'm afraid I can't do that. He said he wouldn't allow me to arrest him. I can call the EMS folks though to treat you for your injuries. There will be a fee of course.

Victim: What??!! You have to arrest him. He committed a robbery and I'm the victim. I demand you arrest him.

Officer: I'm afraid I can't do that. He said he would fight if I tried to arrest him and our new Rules Of Engagement don't allow us to confront a hostile suspect.

Victim: Rules Of Engagement? What the hell is that?

Officer: Basically it means if the alleged suspect offers any resistance, or even says he will resist, our Rules Of Engagement say we shall not "engage". It's really quite simple and it makes our job much simpler. No more fights, no violence involved and everyone is much safer that way aren't they?

Victim: But he robbed me and he's standing right there, you mean you can't do anything?

Officer: Oh, whether or not I could do something doesn't matter. I'm not allowed to confront a possibly hostile suspect. Perhaps you could talk to him and see if he will come down to the precinct house and turn himself in.

Victim: That's it? That's all you can do?

Officer: Well, I can give you our website and you can make a report of this alleged crime. It's a really neat website, designed by the same folks that did that Affordable Care Act site. And I'd be glad to give you the office phone numbers for Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and Eric Holder.

Victim: Will they do anything?

Officer: Not really, they're only interested if I do something.

Victim: Well did you at least get his name so I know who the bad guy is when I make this report?

Officer: No, he didn't want to give me his name, and gosh all I can do is ask.

Victim: This is incredible. He's just standing over there like he knows nothing will be done about this.

Officer: I know. Happens all the time now. Well, have a nice day and call any time, we're here to help.

Victim: But officer....

Officer: You'll have to excuse me, I have to go apologize to that gentlemen for disrupting his day.
Sounds very prophetic.


Now if you ask me what I would do tomr. If I faced this situation in the ghetto where I work....I would still approach w/ my tazer pointer right at the chest of this mope and if he moved one inch towards me after verbal direction to get on your knees and put your hands on your head...dude will be riding the lightening.
If that don't stop the threat which often times doesn't especially if subject is of monstetous proportions or all jacked up on Crack, Pcp, or Meth...then if i can get to my pistol before dude does then it's on and pray backup is coming.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Musky...

Not to take away from anything you have written (you know where I stand on this issue)... where do you surf in Kauai?

I have been there once and surfed Hanalei with my family. We're going back there- unbelievable place. Freakin love Kauai.

muskydan

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote: »

Musky...

Not to take away from anything you have written (you know where I stand on this issue)... where do you surf in Kauai?

I have been there once and surfed Hanalei with my family. We're going back there- unbelievable place. Freakin love Kauai.

Hanalei bay is where I usually go since I have some friends that live near there and the surf is tame where I go…I really am not a good surfer never living by an ocean an all, but I love it and get a chance to surf with some truly legendary surfers and people. Kauai is a very very special place, unfortinately a lot more people are starting to realize that.

rr165892

All I need is someTasty waves and a cool buzz.....

rr165892

I bet you need some serious wet suit action to practice in that lake you folks got up there?

callen

Retracted for PC's sake.

rgambs

Quote not working, this is reply to musky's post.

I love how they just couldn't bear to leave out a little political/racial dig.
This is just dumb. It's not subtle enough to be satire, not funny enough to be humor, and it's too extreme to be realistic, so what is it, besides dumb?
NOBODY is calling for this sort of police work, and NOBODY is dumb enough to believe it would be beneficial. This adds nothing to the discussion but misinformation and misplaced passion.

Godfather.

muskydan wrote: »

Well thank for the concern... I actually just got back from Vegas yesterday and booked Hawaii today for my Annual surfing trip on Kauai in Late Jan then over to Thailand to visit some pals. I am all good, I lots a love all the way around...other than my Bears.

I read something today on a very popular Chicago Cop blog that at first really pissed me off, but after thinking about it for awhile I figured could help people on here wrap their brain around what I mean by saying society will be getting the Policing they are demanding...or De-policing" ..This attitude goes against every reason why I became the police, but I am wiser and Unfortionately older now and realize what is at stake. Being Proactive Police not only is Personally dangerous for an officer, but it could be career suicide.

So here is the facticious, but very real senerio for Ya....take it for what it's worth


Someone Has Seen the Future!
And it looks like this:
Any Street, Anywhere USA

Victim: Officer, officer! That man just stole my purse!

Officer: Good morning ma'm, or does that pronoun offend you. If so, please advise me of the correct pronoun I may use in order to not....

victim: Officer, you're not listening to me! That man stole my purse.

officer: That gentleman across the street?

Victim: Yeah, that's him.

officer: Okay, let me go talk to him.

victim: He's a big guy, don't you want some help?

Officer: Oh no, anything that might give the appearance of a show of force isn't allowed.
Officer leaves to talk to the alleged suspect and then returns:
Officer: Is it a red purse with black trim and brass colored clasp with the initials MS on the side?

Victim: That's it, my name is Mary Smith and those are my initials. That's my purse.

Officer: I figured it was yours, he doesn't look like the purse type. The problem is he doesn't want to give it back.

Victim: Well, arrest him, he robbed me of that purse. He punched me, knocked me down and then took my purse. Look at this bruise on my arm, and I'm bleeding from my forehead.

Officer: I'm afraid I can't do that. He said he wouldn't allow me to arrest him. I can call the EMS folks though to treat you for your injuries. There will be a fee of course.

Victim: What??!! You have to arrest him. He committed a robbery and I'm the victim. I demand you arrest him.

Officer: I'm afraid I can't do that. He said he would fight if I tried to arrest him and our new Rules Of Engagement don't allow us to confront a hostile suspect.

Victim: Rules Of Engagement? What the hell is that?

Officer: Basically it means if the alleged suspect offers any resistance, or even says he will resist, our Rules Of Engagement say we shall not "engage". It's really quite simple and it makes our job much simpler. No more fights, no violence involved and everyone is much safer that way aren't they?

Victim: But he robbed me and he's standing right there, you mean you can't do anything?

Officer: Oh, whether or not I could do something doesn't matter. I'm not allowed to confront a possibly hostile suspect. Perhaps you could talk to him and see if he will come down to the precinct house and turn himself in.

Victim: That's it? That's all you can do?

Officer: Well, I can give you our website and you can make a report of this alleged crime. It's a really neat website, designed by the same folks that did that Affordable Care Act site. And I'd be glad to give you the office phone numbers for Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and Eric Holder.

Victim: Will they do anything?

Officer: Not really, they're only interested if I do something.

Victim: Well did you at least get his name so I know who the bad guy is when I make this report?

Officer: No, he didn't want to give me his name, and gosh all I can do is ask.

Victim: This is incredible. He's just standing over there like he knows nothing will be done about this.

Officer: I know. Happens all the time now. Well, have a nice day and call any time, we're here to help.

Victim: But officer....

Officer: You'll have to excuse me, I have to go apologize to that gentlemen for disrupting his day.
Sounds very prophetic.


Now if you ask me what I would do tomr. If I faced this situation in the ghetto where I work....I would still approach w/ my tazer pointer right at the chest of this mope and if he moved one inch towards me after verbal direction to get on your knees and put your hands on your head...dude will be riding the lightening.
If that don't stop the threat which often times doesn't especially if subject is of monstetous proportions or all jacked up on Crack, Pcp, or Meth...then if i can get to my pistol before dude does then it's on and pray backup is coming.

HAHHHAHHAHHAHHHHA be careful what you ask for America....or riot for.


Godfather.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

I'm sure hoping the people on here knocking Musky for his somewhat jaded attitude towards the people he serves have the brightest outlooks at their jobs.

Every job I've ever been in, most of the people there had developed dispositions spawned from the negative aspects of the job. And behind the scenes... workers lamented clients, customers, management, employers, other employees, unions and the like in the most horrible manner conceivable. Yet... they still effectively got the job done despite feeling the way they did. I'm confident Musky is a good cop- he doesn't strike me as a brutal human being at all. He strikes me as someone who has been somewhat traumatized by his experiences.

I'm not surprised Musky feels the way he does. He doesn't just read about these incidents... he lives them. Look at the negative comments about society in the recent Taliban/Pakistan thread for support to what I have said here- people that have read about the school massacre are calling humanity and other things the most vile descriptions possible. Go get your hands dirty a few times and really see how your attitude might really change.

It's pretty easy to cast judgement on those that do when you are one that doesn't. To the hyper-critics... go walk a mile. If that's not possible, then monitor your words at your work place. If you happen to find yourself a little negative... well... think back to what I've said here.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

rgambs wrote: »

Quote not working, this is reply to musky's post.

I love how they just couldn't bear to leave out a little political/racial dig.
This is just dumb. It's not subtle enough to be satire, not funny enough to be humor, and it's too extreme to be realistic, so what is it, besides dumb?
NOBODY is calling for this sort of police work, and NOBODY is dumb enough to believe it would be beneficial. This adds nothing to the discussion but misinformation and misplaced passion.

Dumb?

I can recall many 'dumb' posts, but as I was reminded once by moderators... if I call something 'dumb'- I'm essentially calling the poster 'dumb'.

It's not dumb at all and it does add to the discussion. There are parallels that can be drawn and the scenario does accurately fit the attitude that some even on here seem to possess.

I can still recall one post- among many sofa experts- that suggested the cops scuttle into their car when a knife attacker came at them (to really think about the situation and perhaps giving the knife attacker a chance to calm down). And you say 'dumb'?

rgambs

The thing from the blog was dumb. It wasn't intelligent and that makes it dumb IMO, even if it did have a little relevance. It didnt fit the attitude of people here at all, it mocked their attitude by taking it to an extreme extent where everyone can agree it is ridiculous. It's a bad debate tactic called reductio ad absurdum, and it is weak. Musky isnt dumb, I wasn't suggesting that at all.

Regarding the knife incident, it just highlights the difference in attitude. It seems you find it unthinkable that a cop ever perform a tactical retreat, whereas I find it could sometimes be an intelligent reaction that could preserve lives of both aggressors and responders.
I fail to see hhow a tactical retreat is dumb, considering it's long history of effectiveness.

rgambs

I've never surfed in the traditional, standing on a surfboard way... I hope to one day soon! I have ridden breakers in a kayak and on a body board, and have surfed huge whitewater rapids in a 6 man raft, good times for sure! Enjoy the waves Musky !

Thirty Bills Unpaid

rgambs wrote: »

The thing from the blog was dumb. It wasn't intelligent and that makes it dumb IMO, even if it did have a little relevance. It didnt fit the attitude of people here at all, it mocked their attitude by taking it to an extreme extent where everyone can agree it is ridiculous. It's a bad debate tactic called reductio ad absurdum, and it is weak. Musky isnt dumb, I wasn't suggesting that at all.

Regarding the knife incident, it just highlights the difference in attitude. It seems you find it unthinkable that a cop ever perform a tactical retreat, whereas I find it could sometimes be an intelligent reaction that could preserve lives of both aggressors and responders.
I fail to see hhow a tactical retreat is dumb, considering it's long history of effectiveness.

I think a cop should execute a 'tactical retreat' if his life is in danger. I don't think he should be running from attackers if he feels the situation can be handled.

Cops can't make a habit of running away from violent aggressors and I am of the opinion they shouldn't concern themselves too much with the health of some lunatic trying to cut people's necks with a knife.

rgambs

I dont think they should make a habit of it either, but that doesn't mean there arent situations where it could be appropriate. This was a specific case in which no necks were being threatened and there was no "running" to be done as they were standing at the car.

rr165892

If they retreat,and the attacker goes after someone else then the police have a new problem.I do think there are times when a bit of a reboot is the best cause of action,but not while someone who is armed could hurt others.

rr165892

Kinda on subject here.My wife who is not on these here PJ inter-webs was watching the CNN feed from the take down in Sydneythe other night.As the video showed the police lined up ready to overtake the terrorist and bust in My wife says"I bet those people inside aren't thinking about protesting against law enforcement today are they".
Those were my thoughts exactly as well.