I don't think I expressed myself well in my earlier post. I don't want to discourage anyone from getting further education; far from it. However, it needs to be done with realistic planning, without a lot of wasted time. If someone doesn't know what they want to study, then they probably shouldn't be incurring debt for full time college or university; instead, they can be exploring their options and interests with part time or evening courses or volunteering while they work. And they need to keep their expectations reasonable. Perhaps I am cynical; I prefer to think I'm a realist.
Excellent advice.
Personally, I think college is too pricey for what it's worth these days. But if someone must go, I would encourage them to do so without taking out student loans.
Many moons ago I graduated with only $3,000 in loans and it still felt like a burden. I was able to pay for most of college by working almost 30 hours per week in addition to a full class load.
Great advice but not realistic for today's students. The whole "worked my way through college" thing is only remotely possible nowadays.
How so? I don't think that it is. If anything, it should be easier today.
That doesn't make sense. Rising college costs are outpacing inflation by up to 30% each year with dwindling job markets. How do you come to the conclusion that it should be easier today?
I said it should be easier to work while you're in college today. You said it's only remotely possible to work your way through college today. I disagree with you.
Again, this doesn't make sense. Service jobs are increasingly taken by older than school age individuals, a trip to any grocery store, restaurant, or fast food stop will be sufficient evidence of this if you haven't noticed yet. So, with jobs harder to come by, wit the percentage of income going to food, fuel, and shelter ever increasing, and costs ever rising, I ask again, how do you come to the conclusion it's easier now? You sound like Andy Rooney on the PJ20 DVD, critical of youth but without taking a second to look at the challenges they are facing.
I'm not critical of youth. I'm critical of the colleges who keep raising tuition at a rate faster than salaries and inflation are increasing. I just don't think it's wise for many people to attend them. And it's certainly not wise to rack up a bunch of high interest debt to do so.
If I had it to do over knowing what I do now, I would personally not attend college. I would find an entry level position in a field that interested me and work my way up. I would even take that position unpaid and make money delivering pizzas if I needed to on the side. College essentially taught me nothing that has helped me in my post college life. The only advantage is the degree listed on my resume (OT - resumes are going away as well. Companies just want to know you can do the job they're hiring you for).
I don't think it's as difficult to find a job as you seem to think, and I think the unemployment figures demonstrate that.
Unemployment figures have been proven to be lower than real unemployment/underemployment rates ever since they were instituted. I don't think bubbleriders are in a position to judge how difficult it is to find a job now, and they certainly overestimate the opportunity to work your way up. I have worked as a surgical assistant, proven myself ON THE JOB, and without a degree, I will never be able to work in the field again...grandfather clauses are the past, decent jobs require degrees now. The bubble has burst, the riders just refuse to see it. Companies don't just want to know you can do the job, it's ludicrous to think that with so many college grads you will get the job without a degree over someone who has one. I agree that the proliferation of college attendance is a negative trend, but if we scrap the university model we WILL fall behind in science and technology.
We'll just have to disagree, but I'm not inventing my position out of thin air.
I was laid off 3+ years ago during this time frame when jobs were so difficult to get. I was able to land one close to my previous salary in about 3 months. My new employer actually had me do a homework assignment as a part of the hiring process to prove I could do the job. My degree had nothing to do with me landing it. My experience and demonstrated competence did, as well as my network and the ability to research online.
My brother went to one semester of college. He took an entry level hourly position in manufacturing about 15 years ago. He is currently a Quality Control Manager with more than 10 people directly reporting to him (and more indirectly).
I'd love to hear your position on the relevance of college other than just arguing with mine. There is no doubt in my mind that college is a dinosaur model that needs to be radically changed (or scrapped completely) and is certainly not currently worth the money that you have to pay for it. In fact, you have made statements which could be construed that you actually agree with me - graduates under-employed, etc.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I don't think I expressed myself well in my earlier post. I don't want to discourage anyone from getting further education; far from it. However, it needs to be done with realistic planning, without a lot of wasted time. If someone doesn't know what they want to study, then they probably shouldn't be incurring debt for full time college or university; instead, they can be exploring their options and interests with part time or evening courses or volunteering while they work. And they need to keep their expectations reasonable. Perhaps I am cynical; I prefer to think I'm a realist.
Excellent advice.
Personally, I think college is too pricey for what it's worth these days. But if someone must go, I would encourage them to do so without taking out student loans.
Many moons ago I graduated with only $3,000 in loans and it still felt like a burden. I was able to pay for most of college by working almost 30 hours per week in addition to a full class load.
Great advice but not realistic for today's students. The whole "worked my way through college" thing is only remotely possible nowadays.
How so? I don't think that it is. If anything, it should be easier today.
That doesn't make sense. Rising college costs are outpacing inflation by up to 30% each year with dwindling job markets. How do you come to the conclusion that it should be easier today?
I said it should be easier to work while you're in college today. You said it's only remotely possible to work your way through college today. I disagree with you.
Again, this doesn't make sense. Service jobs are increasingly taken by older than school age individuals, a trip to any grocery store, restaurant, or fast food stop will be sufficient evidence of this if you haven't noticed yet. So, with jobs harder to come by, wit the percentage of income going to food, fuel, and shelter ever increasing, and costs ever rising, I ask again, how do you come to the conclusion it's easier now? You sound like Andy Rooney on the PJ20 DVD, critical of youth but without taking a second to look at the challenges they are facing.
I'm not critical of youth. I'm critical of the colleges who keep raising tuition at a rate faster than salaries and inflation are increasing. I just don't think it's wise for many people to attend them. And it's certainly not wise to rack up a bunch of high interest debt to do so.
If I had it to do over knowing what I do now, I would personally not attend college. I would find an entry level position in a field that interested me and work my way up. I would even take that position unpaid and make money delivering pizzas if I needed to on the side. College essentially taught me nothing that has helped me in my post college life. The only advantage is the degree listed on my resume (OT - resumes are going away as well. Companies just want to know you can do the job they're hiring you for).
I don't think it's as difficult to find a job as you seem to think, and I think the unemployment figures demonstrate that.
Unemployment figures have been proven to be lower than real unemployment/underemployment rates ever since they were instituted. I don't think bubbleriders are in a position to judge how difficult it is to find a job now, and they certainly overestimate the opportunity to work your way up. I have worked as a surgical assistant, proven myself ON THE JOB, and without a degree, I will never be able to work in the field again...grandfather clauses are the past, decent jobs require degrees now. The bubble has burst, the riders just refuse to see it. Companies don't just want to know you can do the job, it's ludicrous to think that with so many college grads you will get the job without a degree over someone who has one. I agree that the proliferation of college attendance is a negative trend, but if we scrap the university model we WILL fall behind in science and technology.
We'll just have to disagree, but I'm not inventing my position out of thin air.
I was laid off 3+ years ago during this time frame when jobs were so difficult to get. I was able to land one close to my previous salary in about 3 months. My new employer actually had me do a homework assignment as a part of the hiring process to prove I could do the job. My degree had nothing to do with me landing it. My experience and demonstrated competence did, as well as my network and the ability to research online.
My brother went to one semester of college. He took an entry level hourly position in manufacturing about 15 years ago. He is currently a Quality Control Manager with more than 10 people directly reporting to him (and more indirectly).
I'd love to hear your position on the relevance of college other than just arguing with mine. There is no doubt in my mind that college is a dinosaur model that needs to be radically changed (or scrapped completely) and is certainly not currently worth the money that you have to pay for it. In fact, you have made statements which could be construed that you actually agree with me - graduates under-employed, etc.
"My experience and demonstrated competence" This isn't relevant to a 19 yr old searching employment. Thus the degrees. Manufacturing is king where I live, and guess what, they want degrees for new supervisors and quality control managers, the grandfathering days are past. The overtime required in manufacturing rules it out for those interested in more than money.
Regarding my beliefs, they should be evident. I don't support frivolous degrees for this who can't afford them. That being said, I would hate to see America stop producing Maya Angelou's, Kurt Vonnegut's, and Ralph Waldo Emerson's simply because exposure to other literary minds is only for the wealthy. If cost is the main problem then it is an easy fix! If too many degrees is the problem, let's pare it back to the sciences and arts (arts on scholarship or slef-pay) The internet is no substitute for human interaction, and you can't learn how to synthesize molecules through a webinar. I would like to see the hard science degrees gain more influence, and business and art degrees become more like vocational training. You have not addressed the results to science and technology of scrapping the university model. How does the US compete with the world without university research?
I don't think I expressed myself well in my earlier post. I don't want to discourage anyone from getting further education; far from it. However, it needs to be done with realistic planning, without a lot of wasted time. If someone doesn't know what they want to study, then they probably shouldn't be incurring debt for full time college or university; instead, they can be exploring their options and interests with part time or evening courses or volunteering while they work. And they need to keep their expectations reasonable. Perhaps I am cynical; I prefer to think I'm a realist.
Excellent advice.
Personally, I think college is too pricey for what it's worth these days. But if someone must go, I would encourage them to do so without taking out student loans.
Many moons ago I graduated with only $3,000 in loans and it still felt like a burden. I was able to pay for most of college by working almost 30 hours per week in addition to a full class load.
Great advice but not realistic for today's students. The whole "worked my way through college" thing is only remotely possible nowadays.
How so? I don't think that it is. If anything, it should be easier today.
That doesn't make sense. Rising college costs are outpacing inflation by up to 30% each year with dwindling job markets. How do you come to the conclusion that it should be easier today?
I said it should be easier to work while you're in college today. You said it's only remotely possible to work your way through college today. I disagree with you.
Again, this doesn't make sense. Service jobs are increasingly taken by older than school age individuals, a trip to any grocery store, restaurant, or fast food stop will be sufficient evidence of this if you haven't noticed yet. So, with jobs harder to come by, wit the percentage of income going to food, fuel, and shelter ever increasing, and costs ever rising, I ask again, how do you come to the conclusion it's easier now? You sound like Andy Rooney on the PJ20 DVD, critical of youth but without taking a second to look at the challenges they are facing.
I'm not critical of youth. I'm critical of the colleges who keep raising tuition at a rate faster than salaries and inflation are increasing. I just don't think it's wise for many people to attend them. And it's certainly not wise to rack up a bunch of high interest debt to do so.
If I had it to do over knowing what I do now, I would personally not attend college. I would find an entry level position in a field that interested me and work my way up. I would even take that position unpaid and make money delivering pizzas if I needed to on the side. College essentially taught me nothing that has helped me in my post college life. The only advantage is the degree listed on my resume (OT - resumes are going away as well. Companies just want to know you can do the job they're hiring you for).
I don't think it's as difficult to find a job as you seem to think, and I think the unemployment figures demonstrate that.
Unemployment figures have been proven to be lower than real unemployment/underemployment rates ever since they were instituted. I don't think bubbleriders are in a position to judge how difficult it is to find a job now, and they certainly overestimate the opportunity to work your way up. I have worked as a surgical assistant, proven myself ON THE JOB, and without a degree, I will never be able to work in the field again...grandfather clauses are the past, decent jobs require degrees now. The bubble has burst, the riders just refuse to see it. Companies don't just want to know you can do the job, it's ludicrous to think that with so many college grads you will get the job without a degree over someone who has one. I agree that the proliferation of college attendance is a negative trend, but if we scrap the university model we WILL fall behind in science and technology.
We'll just have to disagree, but I'm not inventing my position out of thin air.
I was laid off 3+ years ago during this time frame when jobs were so difficult to get. I was able to land one close to my previous salary in about 3 months. My new employer actually had me do a homework assignment as a part of the hiring process to prove I could do the job. My degree had nothing to do with me landing it. My experience and demonstrated competence did, as well as my network and the ability to research online.
My brother went to one semester of college. He took an entry level hourly position in manufacturing about 15 years ago. He is currently a Quality Control Manager with more than 10 people directly reporting to him (and more indirectly).
I'd love to hear your position on the relevance of college other than just arguing with mine. There is no doubt in my mind that college is a dinosaur model that needs to be radically changed (or scrapped completely) and is certainly not currently worth the money that you have to pay for it. In fact, you have made statements which could be construed that you actually agree with me - graduates under-employed, etc.
My company hires 90% from top universities. Same with other companies in the business. Very few off the street hires.
"My experience and demonstrated competence" This isn't relevant to a 19 yr old searching employment. Thus the degrees. Manufacturing is king where I live, and guess what, they want degrees for new supervisors and quality control managers, the grandfathering days are past. The overtime required in manufacturing rules it out for those interested in more than money.
Regarding my beliefs, they should be evident. I don't support frivolous degrees for this who can't afford them. That being said, I would hate to see America stop producing Maya Angelou's, Kurt Vonnegut's, and Ralph Waldo Emerson's simply because exposure to other literary minds is only for the wealthy. If cost is the main problem then it is an easy fix! If too many degrees is the problem, let's pare it back to the sciences and arts (arts on scholarship or slef-pay) The internet is no substitute for human interaction, and you can't learn how to synthesize molecules through a webinar. I would like to see the hard science degrees gain more influence, and business and art degrees become more like vocational training. You have not addressed the results to science and technology of scrapping the university model. How does the US compete with the world without university research?
"This isn't relevant to a 19 yr old searching employment." And I wasn't searching for an entry level job either. I can see why we're having such difficulty as you keep picking statements and applying them to things to which they weren't intended to apply. I also gave you a manufacturing example. You start out on the line and work your way up like my brother did.
Regarding science, why not make scientific study institutions where the science minded go to work, explore, experiment, collaborate, inspire, etc., and remove it from the traditional university classes (many of which have nothing to do with science) model?
For some degrees - maybe science is one of them - college might still make sense. And I get that you do not want to see us (whatever that means) fall behind the rest of the world, but I find it difficult that anyone really believes anything other than the value of a college education declining while the cost is going up.
Do you disagree that the overall value is declining and the cost is going up dramatically?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Starting on the line isn't the same as it used to be. I go to job fairs and you know what question is number 1? "Can you work 28 days a month, or, can you work 72 hours a week? No joke.
Of course I agree that the value is decreasing, and the cost is increasing. Doesn't mean scrap it altogether!? Legislation would be nice, if we can afford bombs for Syria we can afford education for Americans. The idea you give about scientific institute where people work is not feasible. Privatized research has it's place, but only because public university exists to keep them honest. Otherwise we would still have lead in our gasoline and paint, and cigarettes would still be doctor recommended, like the good old days. There have to be places for learning to occur for learning's sake, it is as necessary as the scientific method itself.
I say this without rancor, but it's easy to say for those who graduated in the 80's or 90's. Those in this group don't fairly appraise the difficulties to students now. The job market is crap, purchasing power is pathetic and costs rise between 15% and 30% every year. Books, gas money, parking passes that cost $200 dollars, it's easy to feel superior to "kids these days" but things are bad and getting worse. You can work your way through undergrad with little to no debt, and you end up with a degree that, aside from a few specific ones, is nearly worthless in the job market. So you have to go to grad school, where they ream you for hundreds of thousands, at outrageous interest rates that bubbleriders have never seen, even on home mortgages. Bubbleriders grew up with credit cards at lower interest rates than some student loans.
You're giving reasons people shouldn't go to college....which I agree with. If it's too expensive, then it doesn't make sense to do it.
The college bubble has to burst sometime soon. With the internet, you have access to all the info and networking you want. The price of tuition has outpaced inflation and wages for many, many years. It's just not worth it.
The internet doesn't produce doctors, nurses, radiologists, engineers, physicists, chemists, or any of the other hard science careers. Should a poor guy go to 4 year college to study philosophy? Of course not, but should we limit the sciences to those who can afford the education? That is a ludicrous idea.
Whoa, while I agree that university is overrated when it comes to how much it does for a lot of people in terms of helping their career, let's not take a shit all over the arts. A poor guy who studies philosophy could become a professor of philosophy, a writer, a teacher, an actual philosopher, etc. Someone who studies theatre could become an actor, director.....and so on and so on. We do still want people following their artistic dreams if that's what turns their crank, and universities are still valuable to the world outside of the sciences. History, literature, sociology, anthropology, criminology, etc etc etc. People just need to choose that path more carefully and with clear heads to make sure their decision to go to university will actually lead to what it is they're looking for, including the poor guy who is enamored with philosophy.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I say this without rancor, but it's easy to say for those who graduated in the 80's or 90's. Those in this group don't fairly appraise the difficulties to students now. The job market is crap, purchasing power is pathetic and costs rise between 15% and 30% every year. Books, gas money, parking passes that cost $200 dollars, it's easy to feel superior to "kids these days" but things are bad and getting worse. You can work your way through undergrad with little to no debt, and you end up with a degree that, aside from a few specific ones, is nearly worthless in the job market. So you have to go to grad school, where they ream you for hundreds of thousands, at outrageous interest rates that bubbleriders have never seen, even on home mortgages. Bubbleriders grew up with credit cards at lower interest rates than some student loans.
You're giving reasons people shouldn't go to college....which I agree with. If it's too expensive, then it doesn't make sense to do it.
The college bubble has to burst sometime soon. With the internet, you have access to all the info and networking you want. The price of tuition has outpaced inflation and wages for many, many years. It's just not worth it.
The internet doesn't produce doctors, nurses, radiologists, engineers, physicists, chemists, or any of the other hard science careers. Should a poor guy go to 4 year college to study philosophy? Of course not, but should we limit the sciences to those who can afford the education? That is a ludicrous idea.
Whoa, while I agree that university is overrated when it comes to how much it does for a lot of people in terms of helping their career, let's not take a shit all over the arts. A poor guy who studies philosophy could become a professor of philosophy, a writer, a teacher, an actual philosopher, etc. Someone who studies theatre could become an actor, director.....and so on and so on. We do still want people following their artistic dreams if that's what turns their crank, and universities are still valuable to the world outside of the sciences. History, literature, sociology, anthropology, criminology, etc etc etc. People just need to choose that path more carefully and with clear heads to make sure their decision to go to university will actually lead to what it is they're looking for, including the poor guy who is enamored with philosophy.
But do you really need to waste 2 years of general studies at a college before you really get into the arts? I say why not just let them go to an institution that specializes in what they're interested in and do a focused study of that. Paying a bunch of money to take a couple of classes a day that aren't even relevant to your interest and sit around drinking the rest of the time - since it's apparently too difficult to find a part time job - just isn't wise.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
The tuition and room / board at the State University went from $10K / yr to $20K / yr in a ten year span. In that same span, the staff on payroll increased 75%. The new univeristy president put a tuition freeze in place. He has also created two, half-million-dollar prizes for the first department that devises a three-year degree or a degree based on what a student already knows, not the number of hours he or she sits in a class.
2003 - Buffalo
2008 - Hartford, Mansfield I, Toronto I (EV Solo)
2010 - Buffalo
2013 - Buffalo, Brooklyn I, Brooklyn II
2014 - St. Paul, Milwaukee, Denver
2015 - Buenos Aires, Mexico City
2016 - New York I, New York II
Starting on the line isn't the same as it used to be. I go to job fairs and you know what question is number 1? "Can you work 28 days a month, or, can you work 72 hours a week? No joke.
Of course I agree that the value is decreasing, and the cost is increasing. Doesn't mean scrap it altogether!? Legislation would be nice, if we can afford bombs for Syria we can afford education for Americans. The idea you give about scientific institute where people work is not feasible. Privatized research has it's place, but only because public university exists to keep them honest. Otherwise we would still have lead in our gasoline and paint, and cigarettes would still be doctor recommended, like the good old days. There have to be places for learning to occur for learning's sake, it is as necessary as the scientific method itself.
Always correlate number of paid degrees per cruise missile. $500k pop. And total degrees for Iraq war? Or healthcare, ultimately saving costs?
But some want the wars and god forbid cutting defense SPENDING. Get the evil doers at all costs.
I say this without rancor, but it's easy to say for those who graduated in the 80's or 90's. Those in this group don't fairly appraise the difficulties to students now. The job market is crap, purchasing power is pathetic and costs rise between 15% and 30% every year. Books, gas money, parking passes that cost $200 dollars, it's easy to feel superior to "kids these days" but things are bad and getting worse. You can work your way through undergrad with little to no debt, and you end up with a degree that, aside from a few specific ones, is nearly worthless in the job market. So you have to go to grad school, where they ream you for hundreds of thousands, at outrageous interest rates that bubbleriders have never seen, even on home mortgages. Bubbleriders grew up with credit cards at lower interest rates than some student loans.
You're giving reasons people shouldn't go to college....which I agree with. If it's too expensive, then it doesn't make sense to do it.
The college bubble has to burst sometime soon. With the internet, you have access to all the info and networking you want. The price of tuition has outpaced inflation and wages for many, many years. It's just not worth it.
The internet doesn't produce doctors, nurses, radiologists, engineers, physicists, chemists, or any of the other hard science careers. Should a poor guy go to 4 year college to study philosophy? Of course not, but should we limit the sciences to those who can afford the education? That is a ludicrous idea.
Whoa, while I agree that university is overrated when it comes to how much it does for a lot of people in terms of helping their career, let's not take a shit all over the arts. A poor guy who studies philosophy could become a professor of philosophy, a writer, a teacher, an actual philosopher, etc. Someone who studies theatre could become an actor, director.....and so on and so on. We do still want people following their artistic dreams if that's what turns their crank, and universities are still valuable to the world outside of the sciences. History, literature, sociology, anthropology, criminology, etc etc etc. People just need to choose that path more carefully and with clear heads to make sure their decision to go to university will actually lead to what it is they're looking for, including the poor guy who is enamored with philosophy.
I am a huge supporter of the arts, I was an English literature major in the time I spent at university. Then I figured out that I could access and read all the philosophy and literature I wanted for next to free. A play by Shakespeare is usually less than 5$! I do think the arts should remain in universities, and it's a huge part of the idea of learning for learning's sake, but taking out student loans for a degree in literature or philosophy just doesn't make much sense. That is why I think we should funnel kids into the hard sciences for college degrees, and funnel them into clubs and organizations that are cheaper ( and create some new ones while we are at it) for the arts.
I say this without rancor, but it's easy to say for those who graduated in the 80's or 90's. Those in this group don't fairly appraise the difficulties to students now. The job market is crap, purchasing power is pathetic and costs rise between 15% and 30% every year. Books, gas money, parking passes that cost $200 dollars, it's easy to feel superior to "kids these days" but things are bad and getting worse. You can work your way through undergrad with little to no debt, and you end up with a degree that, aside from a few specific ones, is nearly worthless in the job market. So you have to go to grad school, where they ream you for hundreds of thousands, at outrageous interest rates that bubbleriders have never seen, even on home mortgages. Bubbleriders grew up with credit cards at lower interest rates than some student loans.
You're giving reasons people shouldn't go to college....which I agree with. If it's too expensive, then it doesn't make sense to do it.
The college bubble has to burst sometime soon. With the internet, you have access to all the info and networking you want. The price of tuition has outpaced inflation and wages for many, many years. It's just not worth it.
The internet doesn't produce doctors, nurses, radiologists, engineers, physicists, chemists, or any of the other hard science careers. Should a poor guy go to 4 year college to study philosophy? Of course not, but should we limit the sciences to those who can afford the education? That is a ludicrous idea.
Whoa, while I agree that university is overrated when it comes to how much it does for a lot of people in terms of helping their career, let's not take a shit all over the arts. A poor guy who studies philosophy could become a professor of philosophy, a writer, a teacher, an actual philosopher, etc. Someone who studies theatre could become an actor, director.....and so on and so on. We do still want people following their artistic dreams if that's what turns their crank, and universities are still valuable to the world outside of the sciences. History, literature, sociology, anthropology, criminology, etc etc etc. People just need to choose that path more carefully and with clear heads to make sure their decision to go to university will actually lead to what it is they're looking for, including the poor guy who is enamored with philosophy.
But do you really need to waste 2 years of general studies at a college before you really get into the arts? I say why not just let them go to an institution that specializes in what they're interested in and do a focused study of that. Paying a bunch of money to take a couple of classes a day that aren't even relevant to your interest and sit around drinking the rest of the time - since it's apparently too difficult to find a part time job - just isn't wise.
No it's not... sorry, maybe I lost the thread here. Who is doing that these days? I don't think anyone is. That kind of thing went away with much cheaper tuition.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,844
Skimming through this thread, I'm very surprised to see no mention of Elizabeth Warrens stalled student loan bill. Am I missing something?
I say this without rancor, but it's easy to say for those who graduated in the 80's or 90's. Those in this group don't fairly appraise the difficulties to students now. The job market is crap, purchasing power is pathetic and costs rise between 15% and 30% every year. Books, gas money, parking passes that cost $200 dollars, it's easy to feel superior to "kids these days" but things are bad and getting worse. You can work your way through undergrad with little to no debt, and you end up with a degree that, aside from a few specific ones, is nearly worthless in the job market. So you have to go to grad school, where they ream you for hundreds of thousands, at outrageous interest rates that bubbleriders have never seen, even on home mortgages. Bubbleriders grew up with credit cards at lower interest rates than some student loans.
You're giving reasons people shouldn't go to college....which I agree with. If it's too expensive, then it doesn't make sense to do it.
The college bubble has to burst sometime soon. With the internet, you have access to all the info and networking you want. The price of tuition has outpaced inflation and wages for many, many years. It's just not worth it.
The internet doesn't produce doctors, nurses, radiologists, engineers, physicists, chemists, or any of the other hard science careers. Should a poor guy go to 4 year college to study philosophy? Of course not, but should we limit the sciences to those who can afford the education? That is a ludicrous idea.
Whoa, while I agree that university is overrated when it comes to how much it does for a lot of people in terms of helping their career, let's not take a shit all over the arts. A poor guy who studies philosophy could become a professor of philosophy, a writer, a teacher, an actual philosopher, etc. Someone who studies theatre could become an actor, director.....and so on and so on. We do still want people following their artistic dreams if that's what turns their crank, and universities are still valuable to the world outside of the sciences. History, literature, sociology, anthropology, criminology, etc etc etc. People just need to choose that path more carefully and with clear heads to make sure their decision to go to university will actually lead to what it is they're looking for, including the poor guy who is enamored with philosophy.
I am a huge supporter of the arts, I was an English literature major in the time I spent at university. Then I figured out that I could access and read all the philosophy and literature I wanted for next to free. A play by Shakespeare is usually less than 5$! I do think the arts should remain in universities, and it's a huge part of the idea of learning for learning's sake, but taking out student loans for a degree in literature or philosophy just doesn't make much sense. That is why I think we should funnel kids into the hard sciences for college degrees, and funnel them into clubs and organizations that are cheaper ( and create some new ones while we are at it) for the arts.
Sounds like you weren't studying literature with a career in mind then. There is a huge difference between reading Shakespeare or philosophy on your own and studying Shakespeare with a professor and with classmates and getting a degree in it. If anyone wants to make a career from studying these things they DO need the university degree, since their likely career will be as a teacher or a professor, or as a writer or editor, or something along those lines, who does need proof of that kind of education behind them to show them as an expert. Otherwise they'll never be able to compete for jobs (or even be allowed to have those jobs in many cases). I mean, if you want to be an English teacher, you're going to have a tough time getting into the Professional Development Program when you tell them that you don't have a degree but are very well read. For me, it was crucial that I had that arts degree for my career (Engl lit and Cmns double major + 2 year professional certificate in editing). My point is that there IS still a place in the world for studying the arts at university.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I'm a third grade teacher and to earn my degree I had to take numerous student loans out to be able to go to college. My parents did not to college and had no extra funds to help out with my college bills. When I look back I really didn't have much direction on what or how to live life after high school. I certainly didn't fully see the impact of signing my life away taking student loans out. This is my 10th year teaching elementary school. My salary this year is $41,000. When I started my first year I earned 32,000. We used to bank on working our way up the pay scale ladder and you can see I have moved up. However, now with our state of PA cutting funding for education our school has been in trouble and it has reflected in our teacher salary. We no longer can move up like we once thought we could so I still owe $ 60,000 in student loans. I love my job and I'm very lucky to have one. Not only do I get to impact my students, but my job allows me to do other things like coach varsity basketball. I work in the summer even though we have the summers off. My job truly makes me happy, but if I had the choice to do over I would not have taken those loans out. It's a stressful burden that impacts my life and felt like I didn't have enough background knowledge or understanding how much money I was borrowing. When you are 18 and you don't want to end up like your parents you will do anything to better your situation and in my case it was the choice to go to school and take those loans out. Young adults need to better educated on how this will impact their future.
I have no one to blame but myself for the debt I have. I know I heard this song once maybe you guys know it ...."I can spend my time alone redigesting past regrets, or you can come to terms and realize you're the only one who can forgive yourself. Makes much more sense to live in the present tense. I want to live in the present tense just debt free!!!!
A college degree is a joke. All that means any more when an employer sees that on a resume is that you were willing to sit through 2 or 4 more years to reach a goal. The money it costs to "earn" that is not worth the payout. I have an associates degree and it is a meaningless, $20,000 piece of paper that had nothing to do with my employment history.
A massive overhaul in college and student loans needs to happen. It makes no sense for a kid to graduate college and be $100k in debt. It does NOT cost that much to run these universities. There are very few jobs that require these degrees. Doctors, engineers, lawyers: yes, you should have a college degree. The supervisor in a manufacturing gig, absolutely no need.
Okay, there are actually tons and tons of jobs that really do practically require a university degree (aka long term specialized study). But there are also many that don't. It is possible to acknowledge the importance of a post secondary education for many people and at the same recognize that they aren't always necessary.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
A college degree is a joke. All that means any more when an employer sees that on a resume is that you were willing to sit through 2 or 4 more years to reach a goal. The money it costs to "earn" that is not worth the payout. I have an associates degree and it is a meaningless, $20,000 piece of paper that had nothing to do with my employment history.
A massive overhaul in college and student loans needs to happen. It makes no sense for a kid to graduate college and be $100k in debt. It does NOT cost that much to run these universities. There are very few jobs that require these degrees. Doctors, engineers, lawyers: yes, you should have a college degree. The supervisor in a manufacturing gig, absolutely no need.
A college degree is a joke. All that means any more when an employer sees that on a resume is that you were willing to sit through 2 or 4 more years to reach a goal. The money it costs to "earn" that is not worth the payout. I have an associates degree and it is a meaningless, $20,000 piece of paper that had nothing to do with my employment history.
A massive overhaul in college and student loans needs to happen. It makes no sense for a kid to graduate college and be $100k in debt. It does NOT cost that much to run these universities. There are very few jobs that require these degrees. Doctors, engineers, lawyers: yes, you should have a college degree. The supervisor in a manufacturing gig, absolutely no need.
i think we have to understand that maybe for some people College is not worth it but I would say that its not a joke. there are millions of jobs that need university degrees and rightfully so. again, people are not forced to go to school if they choose not to go.
I'm a third grade teacher and to earn my degree I had to take numerous student loans out to be able to go to college. My parents did not to college and had no extra funds to help out with my college bills. When I look back I really didn't have much direction on what or how to live life after high school. I certainly didn't fully see the impact of signing my life away taking student loans out. This is my 10th year teaching elementary school. My salary this year is $41,000. When I started my first year I earned 32,000. We used to bank on working our way up the pay scale ladder and you can see I have moved up. However, now with our state of PA cutting funding for education our school has been in trouble and it has reflected in our teacher salary. We no longer can move up like we once thought we could so I still owe $ 60,000 in student loans. I love my job and I'm very lucky to have one. Not only do I get to impact my students, but my job allows me to do other things like coach varsity basketball. I work in the summer even though we have the summers off. My job truly makes me happy, but if I had the choice to do over I would not have taken those loans out. It's a stressful burden that impacts my life and felt like I didn't have enough background knowledge or understanding how much money I was borrowing. When you are 18 and you don't want to end up like your parents you will do anything to better your situation and in my case it was the choice to go to school and take those loans out. Young adults need to better educated on how this will impact their future.
I have no one to blame but myself for the debt I have. I know I heard this song once maybe you guys know it ...."I can spend my time alone redigesting past regrets, or you can come to terms and realize you're the only one who can forgive yourself. Makes much more sense to live in the present tense. I want to live in the present tense just debt free!!!!
$41,000 salary after 10 years? That's a travesty. You should be making way more than that.
Comments
I was laid off 3+ years ago during this time frame when jobs were so difficult to get. I was able to land one close to my previous salary in about 3 months. My new employer actually had me do a homework assignment as a part of the hiring process to prove I could do the job. My degree had nothing to do with me landing it. My experience and demonstrated competence did, as well as my network and the ability to research online.
My brother went to one semester of college. He took an entry level hourly position in manufacturing about 15 years ago. He is currently a Quality Control Manager with more than 10 people directly reporting to him (and more indirectly).
I'd love to hear your position on the relevance of college other than just arguing with mine. There is no doubt in my mind that college is a dinosaur model that needs to be radically changed (or scrapped completely) and is certainly not currently worth the money that you have to pay for it. In fact, you have made statements which could be construed that you actually agree with me - graduates under-employed, etc.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Regarding my beliefs, they should be evident. I don't support frivolous degrees for this who can't afford them. That being said, I would hate to see America stop producing Maya Angelou's, Kurt Vonnegut's, and Ralph Waldo Emerson's simply because exposure to other literary minds is only for the wealthy. If cost is the main problem then it is an easy fix! If too many degrees is the problem, let's pare it back to the sciences and arts (arts on scholarship or slef-pay) The internet is no substitute for human interaction, and you can't learn how to synthesize molecules through a webinar. I would like to see the hard science degrees gain more influence, and business and art degrees become more like vocational training. You have not addressed the results to science and technology of scrapping the university model. How does the US compete with the world without university research?
Regarding science, why not make scientific study institutions where the science minded go to work, explore, experiment, collaborate, inspire, etc., and remove it from the traditional university classes (many of which have nothing to do with science) model?
For some degrees - maybe science is one of them - college might still make sense. And I get that you do not want to see us (whatever that means) fall behind the rest of the world, but I find it difficult that anyone really believes anything other than the value of a college education declining while the cost is going up.
Do you disagree that the overall value is declining and the cost is going up dramatically?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Of course I agree that the value is decreasing, and the cost is increasing. Doesn't mean scrap it altogether!? Legislation would be nice, if we can afford bombs for Syria we can afford education for Americans. The idea you give about scientific institute where people work is not feasible. Privatized research has it's place, but only because public university exists to keep them honest. Otherwise we would still have lead in our gasoline and paint, and cigarettes would still be doctor recommended, like the good old days. There have to be places for learning to occur for learning's sake, it is as necessary as the scientific method itself.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
2008 - Hartford, Mansfield I, Toronto I (EV Solo)
2010 - Buffalo
2013 - Buffalo, Brooklyn I, Brooklyn II
2014 - St. Paul, Milwaukee, Denver
2015 - Buenos Aires, Mexico City
2016 - New York I, New York II
So then focus on costs and reducing. And Not necessarily with government funding.
Be interesting to see the books of top universities.
But some want the wars and god forbid cutting defense SPENDING. Get the evil doers at all costs.
http://www.politico.com/story/2014/06/student-loan-bill-stall-elzabeth-warren-107722.html
I have no one to blame but myself for the debt I have. I know I heard this song once maybe you guys know it
A massive overhaul in college and student loans needs to happen. It makes no sense for a kid to graduate college and be $100k in debt. It does NOT cost that much to run these universities. There are very few jobs that require these degrees. Doctors, engineers, lawyers: yes, you should have a college degree. The supervisor in a manufacturing gig, absolutely no need.
But there are also many that don't. It is possible to acknowledge the importance of a post secondary education for many people and at the same recognize that they aren't always necessary.
As a society we are getting things so backwards.
Good luck to you.