Student Loans / Debt

Jason P

I watched “This Week With John Oliver” and he devoted most of the program to student loans and debt. He briefly went over the fact that you can’t get bankruptcy relief from student loans and then proceeded to use the next 15 minutes to blame “for profit” schools (ITT, Ivy Tech, U of Phoenix, etc.) for the whole mess. I like John Oliver but I found the segment to be totally one-sided and take away from what the real issue is … Universities and ITT’s would not be able to charge what they do if there was bankruptcy relief for student loans.

He claimed that “non-profit” universities were forced to charge more because the ITT’s of the world were eating up loan payouts. All while glancing over that these noble non-profits are still raising tuition and maxing out admissions knowing that students will be shackled to debt for most of their remaining life.

First off, all schools are “for profit”. That’s why Nick Saben gets paid $7M a year, because he probably makes the school ten-fold his salary. That’s why Harvard has an endowment of $30B and still charge $60K / yr for tuition. If a state university has a satellite school and another city that isn’t making profit, they close it. There may be a small percentage of colleges that are non-profit, but they are sparse and few.

He also harped on that ITT’s alumni have problems finding success, while not noting that HR people usually blow-off ITT resumes because they have “nonprofit” blue-blood flowing in their veins. I know I’m guilty of it when glancing over someone’s resume and seeing “University of Phoenix” and I’m not in HR.

If student debt could be absolved by bankruptcy, universities and ITT’s couldn’t charge what they do because no lender would be crazy enough to give an 18 year old $250,000 over a four year period if said loaned person could void the debt. Instead John focused on blaming everything on private business which the audience fed into.

I think this is the next “bubble” to burst. How say you?

unsung

They wouldn't be able to charge what they do if the government didn't back the loans.

unsung

And yes it will burst. There's about $1T in outstanding loans from what I've heard. My girlfriend barely gets by because her payments are out of control by high interest rates that Fannie Mae won't refinance. It's ridiculous.

The other message that should be put out is that the system creates the issue by burning it into the brains of kids that they need to go to college. I'm sick of that indoctrination. It is reckless.

bootlegger10

unsung said:

And yes it will burst. There's about $1T in outstanding loans from what I've heard. My girlfriend barely gets by because her payments are out of control by high interest rates that Fannie Mae won't refinance. It's ridiculous.

The other message that should be put out is that the system creates the issue by burning it into the grains of kids that they need to go to college. I'm sick of that indoctrination. It is reckless.

A four year degree is ridiculous for most occupations in my opinion. I really don't think I'd be any better or worse off if I started my job after two years of college taking courses that directly applied to my career path.

rgambs

bootlegger10 said:

unsung said:

And yes it will burst. There's about $1T in outstanding loans from what I've heard. My girlfriend barely gets by because her payments are out of control by high interest rates that Fannie Mae won't refinance. It's ridiculous.

The other message that should be put out is that the system creates the issue by burning it into the grains of kids that they need to go to college. I'm sick of that indoctrination. It is reckless.

A four year degree is ridiculous for most occupations in my opinion. I really don't think I'd be any better or worse off if I started my job after two years of college taking courses that directly applied to my career path.

Both of you are right. My wife owes 130,000! At 6.5% interest!! There won't be any doctors or lawyers, dentists or professors, any kind of professionals left in 20 years if it keeps up like this, why would you bother? And that's folks who are supposed to be better off, but they are struggling.

PJ_Soul

rgambs said:

bootlegger10 said:

unsung said:

And yes it will burst. There's about $1T in outstanding loans from what I've heard. My girlfriend barely gets by because her payments are out of control by high interest rates that Fannie Mae won't refinance. It's ridiculous.

The other message that should be put out is that the system creates the issue by burning it into the grains of kids that they need to go to college. I'm sick of that indoctrination. It is reckless.

A four year degree is ridiculous for most occupations in my opinion. I really don't think I'd be any better or worse off if I started my job after two years of college taking courses that directly applied to my career path.

Both of you are right. My wife owes 130,000! At 6.5% interest!! There won't be any doctors or lawyers, dentists or professors, any kind of professionals left in 20 years if it keeps up like this, why would you bother? And that's folks who are supposed to be better off, but they are struggling.

There will still be the kids of rich people who can get good educations. More of the rich getting richer and more powerful and the non-rich getting poorer and less powerful. Bad deal America. Terrible system.
I am curious to see how this problem will come to negatively affect the quality of school teachers.

unsung

Chicago public school (CPS) teachers average $76,000 a year, their new contract just secured them a 17% raise over the next three years. 40% of CPS freshmen won't graduate, of those that do 90% need remedial classes in college to catch up their basic math skills.

This is a CPS prom. This is the best these highly paid teachers could achieve.



They probably just aren't paid enough. That's the problem.

SPEEDY MCCREADY

unsung said:

Chicago public school (CPS) teachers average $76,000 a year, their new contract just secured them a 17% raise over the next three years. 40% of CPS freshmen won't graduate, of those that do 90% need remedial classes in college to catch up their basic math skills.

This is a CPS prom. This is the best these highly paid teachers could achieve.



They probably just aren't paid enough. That's the problem.

The Chicago Public School Teachers

My favorite topic of discussion.

Their union boss is going to run for mayor.

unsung

Every time someone tries to tell me that homeschooling and Montessori schools are bad all I need is a CPS story to show how I'll keep my kids out of those government indoctrination camps.

SPEEDY MCCREADY

unsung said:

Every time someone tries to tell me that homeschooling and Montessori schools are bad all I need is a CPS story to show how I'll keep my kids out of those government indoctrination camps.

Be careful. Every time I mention the CPS, EVERY TEACHER on this board loses their mind. Though they obviously have no clue what goes on here, in the city of Chicago.

unsung

It's hard for them to admit when their policies fail. Chicago is their shining star.

rgambs

unsung said:

Chicago public school (CPS) teachers average $76,000 a year, their new contract just secured them a 17% raise over the next three years. 40% of CPS freshmen won't graduate, of those that do 90% need remedial classes in college to catch up their basic math skills.

This is a CPS prom. This is the best these highly paid teachers could achieve.



They probably just aren't paid enough. That's the problem.

Does that figure include administrators? Typically superintendents make outrageous salaries that would skew the average pretty badly.

unsung

I don't know, apparently they need to go back to school themselves.

hedonist

rgambs said:

bootlegger10 said:

unsung said:

And yes it will burst. There's about $1T in outstanding loans from what I've heard. My girlfriend barely gets by because her payments are out of control by high interest rates that Fannie Mae won't refinance. It's ridiculous.

The other message that should be put out is that the system creates the issue by burning it into the grains of kids that they need to go to college. I'm sick of that indoctrination. It is reckless.

A four year degree is ridiculous for most occupations in my opinion. I really don't think I'd be any better or worse off if I started my job after two years of college taking courses that directly applied to my career path.

Both of you are right. My wife owes 130,000! At 6.5% interest!! There won't be any doctors or lawyers, dentists or professors, any kind of professionals left in 20 years if it keeps up like this, why would you bother? And that's folks who are supposed to be better off, but they are struggling.

Whoa, rg...that's quite an investment - one I assume will pay off over time? Otherwise why do it?

I'm a big proponent of vocational schools, of mastering a skill (or skills) that will always be valuable.

That said, neither my husband nor I hold degrees and we're doing pretty well. Much to be said for education via school but as important are experience and smarts.

unsung

My girlfriend worked at an architecture firm when she was in high school, so naturally she stayed in the industry and became an interior designer. It isn't like how it is on HGTV, she sits at a computer all day on CAD and tries to meet deadlines. It's highly stressful and she barely makes enough to pay her student loans.

She's 29 and still has 90k to go on those loans. She hates every day that she went to school, the loans are eating her alive.

I am not going to tell others what to do but I would never put my kids through what she is dealing with. I would do everything that I could so they don't have debt.

rr165892

Was watching a interview with Mike Rowe.He was talking to a Executive withThe Catapiller Equip company.They cannot find enough young people to come in and learn the trade of heavy equipment repair because they all think a trade is a step down.The careers they were talking about in the heavy equipment industry start around 75k a year and with training and experience skilled techs earn well over 100k a year.No debt and paid to train.Just one example of how we view education and its real importance on success in life.
I blew off a Syracuse education to stay with a then girlfriend(still with her) and followed a path into a specialty trade.30 years later we have built it into very successful firm.My kids are still hell bent on running up unnecessary debt and going for more mainstream degrees in there chosen career paths.The truth is if they joined our Corp they would probably earn 3-4 times that of entry level professionals in the fields they are pursuing, but the don't see it like that.Sometimes they need to find out on their own.

oftenreading

Ideally, students entering university/college are doing it in a clear-headed way and have realistically looked at how much it will cost and whether the field they hope to enter pays enough and has good enough employment prospects to warrant this investment. Unfortunately, not many of us are clear-headed at 18, nor do we take advice well from parents.

I also think the whole mantra of "follow your passion and the money will follow" is foolhardy. Some dedicated, high energy people can follow their passion and make enough to live; the rest are unemployed or underemployed with massive debt and living in their parents' basement.

PJ_Soul

Wow. That teacher stuff really drove my point off the rails. The point is that if "regular" people can't afford university without going into $130k worth of debt, and if teaching jobs don't promise the kinds of salaries that rich people are after (they don't), or even allow people in that kind of debt to live above poverty levels even with a higher teachers salary (which they wouldn't have for years anyway), then who the fuck is going to teach our children? I know a couple of you act as though all teachers are garbage and like to use bogus stats as well as the worst case scenario to illustrate that opinion, but actually we want a system that encourages really smart and hard working people to go for that career, and the current situation with universities being completely unaffordable to anyone who would want to teach, while teachers normally need a masters degree to compete for the jobs, doesn't encourage that at all.

PJ_Soul

oftenreading said:

Ideally, students entering university/college are doing it in a clear-headed way and have realistically looked at how much it will cost and whether the field they hope to enter pays enough and has good enough employment prospects to warrant this investment. Unfortunately, not many of us are clear-headed at 18, nor do we take advice well from parents.

I also think the whole mantra of "follow your passion and the money will follow" is foolhardy. Some dedicated, high energy people can follow their passion and make enough to live; the rest are unemployed or underemployed with massive debt and living in their parents' basement.

Ideally, students shouldn't have to choose between money and education.

Luckily the situation is much different in Canada. Universities are subsidized enough that students do have options. Not easy ones. But it is actually possible to get through university without student loans of the student is motivated enough and willing to work while being a student. And it isn't so expensive that a lot of middle class parents can help enough to make it possible. The US is whole different animal. Of course, many young students in Canada just don't grasp the concept of debt fully enough to do what they need to to avoid borrowing, or at least minimize it. I personally worked my way through school and didn't borrow. But i took full time classes and worked 6 days a week as well so I could do it. Not sure too many students this day and age are willing to do that. Much easier to just borrow loans... but they'll regret it. 6 years of getting 3 hours sleep a night was well worth avoiding tens of thousands worth of student loan debt!!

mickeyrat

Meanwhile the vocational schools in my area have been closed for a very long time. For those HS students with a good idea of what trade they wanted to work in , it was invaluable for them to start their chosen fields training while in HS.

My brother took Firefighting in VS. He has since retired from the Air Force after 20 yrs service and now works for DoD as Fire Chief of Andersen AF Base. I wonder how much difficulty he might have faced without having the benefit of that schooling during HS. Funding for that sort of trade specific education needs to be restored sooner rather than later.

MY chosen field wasnt possible for me until I got sober , but a small loan of 6K to get my CDL was partially reimbursed by the company I hired on with. Make my last payment on that note in Nov.

justam

I think university debt is a big problem. Especially when people go to graduate school, they can come out of college with far too much debt. Unless they are going to be dentists, or physicians, it's a heavy burden to carry for a lot of years!

My husband and I are making sure our sons get their undergraduate degrees without acquiring any debt so they will not have to worry that. Since we aren't rich, that means they are required (by us) not to attend an expensive private college (go to a state university instead) and they have to live at home until they graduate to save on housing. I know we're limiting their choices BUT I think they'll prefer their freedom from debt when they are done!

Meanwhile, my younger son is getting all kinds of postcards and advertisements from universities to try to sell their product... Education appears to be a big business these days...

rgambs

hedonist said:

rgambs said:

bootlegger10 said:

unsung said:

And yes it will burst. There's about $1T in outstanding loans from what I've heard. My girlfriend barely gets by because her payments are out of control by high interest rates that Fannie Mae won't refinance. It's ridiculous.

The other message that should be put out is that the system creates the issue by burning it into the grains of kids that they need to go to college. I'm sick of that indoctrination. It is reckless.

A four year degree is ridiculous for most occupations in my opinion. I really don't think I'd be any better or worse off if I started my job after two years of college taking courses that directly applied to my career path.

Both of you are right. My wife owes 130,000! At 6.5% interest!! There won't be any doctors or lawyers, dentists or professors, any kind of professionals left in 20 years if it keeps up like this, why would you bother? And that's folks who are supposed to be better off, but they are struggling.

Whoa, rg...that's quite an investment - one I assume will pay off over time? Otherwise why do it?

I'm a big proponent of vocational schools, of mastering a skill (or skills) that will always be valuable.

That said, neither my husband nor I hold degrees and we're doing pretty well. Much to be said for education via school but as important are experience and smarts.

She was swindled lol! They don't give you the interest rate until you are in too deep, and if you quit in your first year, you owe 30k for nothing. Optometry is a fast growing and lucrative field they said! 100,000k+ a year they said! Not quite. The doctor she works for graduated in the 80's with 10k debt and started with a HIGHER salary than her (after adjustment for inflation). The older generation rode the bubble up their whole careers, and now they want an average of half a million for practices that are making less money each year, because they are greedy from having it easy. So in order to avoid another half million or more of debt, more Optometrists are going corporate, further dwindling the field and it's profitability, not to mention the quality of eye exams.

rgambs

It is the same for all professionals. Physicians, lawyers, professors, basically anything but finance and the degree is liable to drown you. It does not bode well for the future when science doesn't pay, and banking does.

PJ_Soul

justam said:

I think university debt is a big problem. Especially when people go to graduate school, they can come out of college with far too much debt. Unless they are going to be dentists, or physicians, it's a heavy burden to carry for a lot of years!

My husband and I are making sure our sons get their undergraduate degrees without acquiring any debt so they will not have to worry that. Since we aren't rich, that means they are required (by us) not to attend an expensive private college (go to a state university instead) and they have to live at home until they graduate to save on housing. I know we're limiting their choices BUT I think they'll prefer their freedom from debt when they are done!

Meanwhile, my younger son is getting all kinds of postcards and advertisements from universities to try to sell their product... Education appears to be a big business these days...

Actually, it's even worse for those who go to medical school. They have to get student loans for that too. I read that the average medical school grad/new doctor has $200,000+ in student loans to pay off. That is a huge amount of debt to repay even if you have a really good salary. The result here is that it's getting harder and harder to get people to be GPs or ER doctors or other urgently needed doctors who don't get paid the way provate plastic surgeons and other very highly paid specialists do. There is a massive shortage of GPs and ER docs in North America, and they are arguably the most important and most needed doctors in our society. So here is another example of the trickle down effect of outrageous post-secondary tuitions coupled with bad student loan conditions. It's contributing greatly to the constant state of crisis in the Healthcare system.

rgambs

PJ_Soul said:

justam said:

I think university debt is a big problem. Especially when people go to graduate school, they can come out of college with far too much debt. Unless they are going to be dentists, or physicians, it's a heavy burden to carry for a lot of years!

My husband and I are making sure our sons get their undergraduate degrees without acquiring any debt so they will not have to worry that. Since we aren't rich, that means they are required (by us) not to attend an expensive private college (go to a state university instead) and they have to live at home until they graduate to save on housing. I know we're limiting their choices BUT I think they'll prefer their freedom from debt when they are done!

Meanwhile, my younger son is getting all kinds of postcards and advertisements from universities to try to sell their product... Education appears to be a big business these days...

Actually, it's even worse for those who go to medical school. They have to get student loans for that too. I read that the average medical school grad/new doctor has $200,000+ in student loans to pay off. That is a huge amount of debt to repay even if you have a really good salary. The result here is that it's getting harder and harder to get people to be GPs or ER doctors or other urgently needed doctors who don't get paid the way provate plastic surgeons and other very highly paid specialists do. There is a massive shortage of GPs and ER docs in North America, and they are arguably the most important and most needed doctors in our society. So here is another example of the trickle down effect of outrageous post-secondary tuitions coupled with bad student loan conditions. It's contributing greatly to the constant state of crisis in the Healthcare system.

This is exactly correct! It is a sad state, and only getting worse.

oftenreading

I don't think I expressed myself well in my earlier post. I don't want to discourage anyone from getting further education; far from it. However, it needs to be done with realistic planning, without a lot of wasted time. If someone doesn't know what they want to study, then they probably shouldn't be incurring debt for full time college or university; instead, they can be exploring their options and interests with part time or evening courses or volunteering while they work. And they need to keep their expectations reasonable. Perhaps I am cynical; I prefer to think I'm a realist.

Indifference71

SPEEDY MCCREADY said:

unsung said:

Chicago public school (CPS) teachers average $76,000 a year, their new contract just secured them a 17% raise over the next three years. 40% of CPS freshmen won't graduate, of those that do 90% need remedial classes in college to catch up their basic math skills.

This is a CPS prom. This is the best these highly paid teachers could achieve.



They probably just aren't paid enough. That's the problem.

Their union boss is going to run for mayor.

She makes me want to puke.

SPEEDY MCCREADY

Indifference71 said:

SPEEDY MCCREADY said:

unsung said:

Chicago public school (CPS) teachers average $76,000 a year, their new contract just secured them a 17% raise over the next three years. 40% of CPS freshmen won't graduate, of those that do 90% need remedial classes in college to catch up their basic math skills.

This is a CPS prom. This is the best these highly paid teachers could achieve.



They probably just aren't paid enough. That's the problem.

Their union boss is going to run for mayor.

She makes me want to puke.

She is going to be the next mayor.

unsung

That's going to be a bigger train wreck than Rahm.

No pun intended

SPEEDY MCCREADY

unsung said:

That's going to be a bigger train wreck than Rahm.

No pun intended

Every union worker will vote for her.
I would think most city employees will vote for her.
Every low income worker will vote for her.
95% of the Black vote will be hers.
95% of the Hispanic vote will be hers.
95% of the Female vote will be hers.

hedonist

oftenreading said:

I don't think I expressed myself well in my earlier post. I don't want to discourage anyone from getting further education; far from it. However, it needs to be done with realistic planning, without a lot of wasted time. If someone doesn't know what they want to study, then they probably shouldn't be incurring debt for full time college or university; instead, they can be exploring their options and interests with part time or evening courses or volunteering while they work. And they need to keep their expectations reasonable. Perhaps I am cynical; I prefer to think I'm a realist.

I don't take it as cynicism at all. Hopefully those starting out DO think things through, have been given (taught) the tools to do so through their parents and schooling, and make decisions with as much forethought and practicality as possible.

Realism kicks ass.

(this, from one who knows she can be emotional!)