Grunt work is necessary though; I mean, most people who make a good living now had to put their time in and work up from the bottom. With few exceptions, that would apply to the majority of professions. And learning from pros in the process? Invaluable!
The length of time though - is that particular to Canada? Seems it doesn't take as long here (and plumbers and electricians are in pretty high demand, probably always will be...so worth the investment).
Dead on Hedo!
My friends who are in the trades do best financially out of all my friends (and myself) by far. Definitely not for everyone though. And there is a sexual inequality problem in most trades, so that's a problem. I don't mean just that there are hardly any women in the trades (which is true). I mean that from everything I hear women are actually discriminated against when they enter the trades.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
The trades aren't without flaws either though. Some people are not willing to work 60 or more hours a week, you can buy anything but love and time, and since I have love I need time with my loves. The trades often (not always) require significant sacrifices that leave me thinking that Americans often care more about money than anything else.
JasonP the factory I quit is closing it's doors because it can't make money on so much forced OT. Graphic Packaging is no outlier, the big manufacturing corps are all going this route...maybe they want to drive them all under so they can relocate to the third world, I don't know, but it is not an isolated event for sure. I hope things stay reasonable where you are!
Good points. And there is lots of travel involved in the trades as well. You have to be tough as nails to be an ironworker or millwright past the age of 50.
One thing trade schools and apprenticship should offer is life planning and money management courses (maybe they do). I see so many guys that get on a hot job making tons of O.T. for a good period of time just blow the money they make.
Oh yeah, absolutely. First thing the frackers do is go buy a brand new truck for 30,000$. They live in hotels, drink, drug, and fast food themselves into oblivion, and are left with average salaries. Doesn't seem like living to me at all.
Grunt work is necessary though; I mean, most people who make a good living now had to put their time in and work up from the bottom. With few exceptions, that would apply to the majority of professions. And learning from pros in the process? Invaluable!
The length of time though - is that particular to Canada? Seems it doesn't take as long here (and plumbers and electricians are in pretty high demand, probably always will be...so worth the investment).
Dead on Hedo!
My friends who are in the trades do best financially out of all my friends (and myself) by far. Definitely not for everyone though. And there is a sexual inequality problem in most trades, so that's a problem. I don't mean just that there are hardly any women in the trades (which is true). I mean that from everything I hear women are actually discriminated against when they enter the trades.
Hard work,but rewarding.For those that learn their craft,put in the time,and do exceptional work it can def lead to great salaries and comfortable living. I dealt with the gender issue a month ago.A women applied with us for a job usually know as a mans position.(In our firm the office is all women and the field is all men).She was qualified,built to handle the physical nature of the position and hungry for the job.I was going to offer her the position but she had a bad driving record.so no go.But we had no issue with the gender.Her pay would have been dead even of that of a male in the same role.If you can do the job,more power to ya.
Oh yeah, absolutely. First thing the frackers do is go buy a brand new truck for 30,000$. They live in hotels, drink, drug, and fast food themselves into oblivion, and are left with average salaries. Doesn't seem like living to me at all.
Their skills will come in handy some day when NASA only has 18 days to train them to fly a space shuttle to an asteroid the size of Texas and drill 800 ft inside the asteroid and trigger a nuclear detonation that will split the asteroid in two, driving the pieces apart so both will fly safely past the Earth. Cause that's just science.
Grunt work is necessary though; I mean, most people who make a good living now had to put their time in and work up from the bottom. With few exceptions, that would apply to the majority of professions. And learning from pros in the process? Invaluable!
The length of time though - is that particular to Canada? Seems it doesn't take as long here (and plumbers and electricians are in pretty high demand, probably always will be...so worth the investment).
Dead on Hedo!
My friends who are in the trades do best financially out of all my friends (and myself) by far. Definitely not for everyone though. And there is a sexual inequality problem in most trades, so that's a problem. I don't mean just that there are hardly any women in the trades (which is true). I mean that from everything I hear women are actually discriminated against when they enter the trades.
Hard work,but rewarding.For those that learn their craft,put in the time,and do exceptional work it can def lead to great salaries and comfortable living. I dealt with the gender issue a month ago.A women applied with us for a job usually know as a mans position.(In our firm the office is all women and the field is all men).She was qualified,built to handle the physical nature of the position and hungry for the job.I was going to offer her the position but she had a bad driving record.so no go.But we had no issue with the gender.Her pay would have been dead even of that of a male in the same role.If you can do the job,more power to ya.
Too bad about her shitty driving, lol. Good for you that you would have otherwise been so open to it.... too bad so many others are not quite so enlightened (yet)!
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Oh yeah, absolutely. First thing the frackers do is go buy a brand new truck for 30,000$. They live in hotels, drink, drug, and fast food themselves into oblivion, and are left with average salaries. Doesn't seem like living to me at all.
Their skills will come in handy some day when NASA only has 18 days to train them to fly a space shuttle to an asteroid the size of Texas and drill 800 ft inside the asteroid and trigger a nuclear detonation that will split the asteroid in two, driving the pieces apart so both will fly safely past the Earth. Cause that's just science.
Don't forget they have to stop by Space Station(Don't touch anything!)Pick up a Russian,And land on a plate of Iron Ferrite(sp).lol
A four year degree is ridiculous for most occupations in my opinion. I really don't think I'd be any better or worse off if I started my job after two years of college taking courses that directly applied to my career path.
Totally agree with this. I don't even think you need the 2 years. I think colleges are pricing themselves right out of business.
We need to wake up and stop blindly borrowing money to go to something that is not worth what you pay for it.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I don't think I expressed myself well in my earlier post. I don't want to discourage anyone from getting further education; far from it. However, it needs to be done with realistic planning, without a lot of wasted time. If someone doesn't know what they want to study, then they probably shouldn't be incurring debt for full time college or university; instead, they can be exploring their options and interests with part time or evening courses or volunteering while they work. And they need to keep their expectations reasonable. Perhaps I am cynical; I prefer to think I'm a realist.
Excellent advice.
Personally, I think college is too pricey for what it's worth these days. But if someone must go, I would encourage them to do so without taking out student loans.
Many moons ago I graduated with only $3,000 in loans and it still felt like a burden. I was able to pay for most of college by working almost 30 hours per week in addition to a full class load.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I don't think I expressed myself well in my earlier post. I don't want to discourage anyone from getting further education; far from it. However, it needs to be done with realistic planning, without a lot of wasted time. If someone doesn't know what they want to study, then they probably shouldn't be incurring debt for full time college or university; instead, they can be exploring their options and interests with part time or evening courses or volunteering while they work. And they need to keep their expectations reasonable. Perhaps I am cynical; I prefer to think I'm a realist.
Excellent advice.
Personally, I think college is too pricey for what it's worth these days. But if someone must go, I would encourage them to do so without taking out student loans.
Many moons ago I graduated with only $3,000 in loans and it still felt like a burden. I was able to pay for most of college by working almost 30 hours per week in addition to a full class load.
Great advice but not realistic for today's students. The whole "worked my way through college" thing is only remotely possible nowadays.
Great advice but not realistic for today's students. The whole "worked my way through college" thing is only remotely possible nowadays.
Maybe for some it is, but given all of these "party schools", might it be feasible to set aside or reduce the time doing beer bongs and use it toward, I don't know, working? Monetary benefits aside, it's a good learning experience of what's realistically expected of adults, plus becoming independent, self-reliant.
I say this without rancor, but it's easy to say for those who graduated in the 80's or 90's. Those in this group don't fairly appraise the difficulties to students now. The job market is crap, purchasing power is pathetic and costs rise between 15% and 30% every year. Books, gas money, parking passes that cost $200 dollars, it's easy to feel superior to "kids these days" but things are bad and getting worse. You can work your way through undergrad with little to no debt, and you end up with a degree that, aside from a few specific ones, is nearly worthless in the job market. So you have to go to grad school, where they ream you for hundreds of thousands, at outrageous interest rates that bubbleriders have never seen, even on home mortgages. Bubbleriders grew up with credit cards at lower interest rates than some student loans.
I went to college for only a short time - decided to pursue what I was working at, at the time. Great decision for me. Good experience, no debt, making a nice living and a nice life.
While attending though, I paid for everything myself. I'm not sure if the costs are relative to what they are now (I'd imagine so?), but books, parking passes, tuition and the like - all on me. Haven't used a credit card in over 20 years either.
For the record, I don't feel superior to anyone; however, I do think some made/make terrible financial decisions, whether related to education or even mortgages as you mentioned.
No one "has" to do anything. There are other ways - maybe not seeing that is part of the problem.
I don't think I expressed myself well in my earlier post. I don't want to discourage anyone from getting further education; far from it. However, it needs to be done with realistic planning, without a lot of wasted time. If someone doesn't know what they want to study, then they probably shouldn't be incurring debt for full time college or university; instead, they can be exploring their options and interests with part time or evening courses or volunteering while they work. And they need to keep their expectations reasonable. Perhaps I am cynical; I prefer to think I'm a realist.
Excellent advice.
Personally, I think college is too pricey for what it's worth these days. But if someone must go, I would encourage them to do so without taking out student loans.
Many moons ago I graduated with only $3,000 in loans and it still felt like a burden. I was able to pay for most of college by working almost 30 hours per week in addition to a full class load.
Great advice but not realistic for today's students. The whole "worked my way through college" thing is only remotely possible nowadays.
How so? I don't think that it is. If anything, it should be easier today.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I say this without rancor, but it's easy to say for those who graduated in the 80's or 90's. Those in this group don't fairly appraise the difficulties to students now. The job market is crap, purchasing power is pathetic and costs rise between 15% and 30% every year. Books, gas money, parking passes that cost $200 dollars, it's easy to feel superior to "kids these days" but things are bad and getting worse. You can work your way through undergrad with little to no debt, and you end up with a degree that, aside from a few specific ones, is nearly worthless in the job market. So you have to go to grad school, where they ream you for hundreds of thousands, at outrageous interest rates that bubbleriders have never seen, even on home mortgages. Bubbleriders grew up with credit cards at lower interest rates than some student loans.
You're giving reasons people shouldn't go to college....which I agree with. If it's too expensive, then it doesn't make sense to do it.
The college bubble has to burst sometime soon. With the internet, you have access to all the info and networking you want. The price of tuition has outpaced inflation and wages for many, many years. It's just not worth it.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I don't think I expressed myself well in my earlier post. I don't want to discourage anyone from getting further education; far from it. However, it needs to be done with realistic planning, without a lot of wasted time. If someone doesn't know what they want to study, then they probably shouldn't be incurring debt for full time college or university; instead, they can be exploring their options and interests with part time or evening courses or volunteering while they work. And they need to keep their expectations reasonable. Perhaps I am cynical; I prefer to think I'm a realist.
Excellent advice.
Personally, I think college is too pricey for what it's worth these days. But if someone must go, I would encourage them to do so without taking out student loans.
Many moons ago I graduated with only $3,000 in loans and it still felt like a burden. I was able to pay for most of college by working almost 30 hours per week in addition to a full class load.
Great advice but not realistic for today's students. The whole "worked my way through college" thing is only remotely possible nowadays.
How so? I don't think that it is. If anything, it should be easier today.
That doesn't make sense. Rising college costs are outpacing inflation by up to 30% each year with dwindling job markets. How do you come to the conclusion that it should be easier today?
I say this without rancor, but it's easy to say for those who graduated in the 80's or 90's. Those in this group don't fairly appraise the difficulties to students now. The job market is crap, purchasing power is pathetic and costs rise between 15% and 30% every year. Books, gas money, parking passes that cost $200 dollars, it's easy to feel superior to "kids these days" but things are bad and getting worse. You can work your way through undergrad with little to no debt, and you end up with a degree that, aside from a few specific ones, is nearly worthless in the job market. So you have to go to grad school, where they ream you for hundreds of thousands, at outrageous interest rates that bubbleriders have never seen, even on home mortgages. Bubbleriders grew up with credit cards at lower interest rates than some student loans.
You're giving reasons people shouldn't go to college....which I agree with. If it's too expensive, then it doesn't make sense to do it.
The college bubble has to burst sometime soon. With the internet, you have access to all the info and networking you want. The price of tuition has outpaced inflation and wages for many, many years. It's just not worth it.
The internet doesn't produce doctors, nurses, radiologists, engineers, physicists, chemists, or any of the other hard science careers. Should a poor guy go to 4 year college to study philosophy? Of course not, but should we limit the sciences to those who can afford the education? That is a ludicrous idea.
I went to college for only a short time - decided to pursue what I was working at, at the time. Great decision for me. Good experience, no debt, making a nice living and a nice life.
While attending though, I paid for everything myself. I'm not sure if the costs are relative to what they are now (I'd imagine so?), but books, parking passes, tuition and the like - all on me. Haven't used a credit card in over 20 years either.
For the record, I don't feel superior to anyone; however, I do think some made/make terrible financial decisions, whether related to education or even mortgages as you mentioned.
No one "has" to do anything. There are other ways - maybe not seeing that is part of the problem.
The costs are not relative, cost increases are typically given as percentages over inflation.
I don't think I expressed myself well in my earlier post. I don't want to discourage anyone from getting further education; far from it. However, it needs to be done with realistic planning, without a lot of wasted time. If someone doesn't know what they want to study, then they probably shouldn't be incurring debt for full time college or university; instead, they can be exploring their options and interests with part time or evening courses or volunteering while they work. And they need to keep their expectations reasonable. Perhaps I am cynical; I prefer to think I'm a realist.
Excellent advice.
Personally, I think college is too pricey for what it's worth these days. But if someone must go, I would encourage them to do so without taking out student loans.
Many moons ago I graduated with only $3,000 in loans and it still felt like a burden. I was able to pay for most of college by working almost 30 hours per week in addition to a full class load.
Great advice but not realistic for today's students. The whole "worked my way through college" thing is only remotely possible nowadays.
How so? I don't think that it is. If anything, it should be easier today.
That doesn't make sense. Rising college costs are outpacing inflation by up to 30% each year with dwindling job markets. How do you come to the conclusion that it should be easier today?
I said it should be easier to work while you're in college today. You said it's only remotely possible to work your way through college today. I disagree with you.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I say this without rancor, but it's easy to say for those who graduated in the 80's or 90's. Those in this group don't fairly appraise the difficulties to students now. The job market is crap, purchasing power is pathetic and costs rise between 15% and 30% every year. Books, gas money, parking passes that cost $200 dollars, it's easy to feel superior to "kids these days" but things are bad and getting worse. You can work your way through undergrad with little to no debt, and you end up with a degree that, aside from a few specific ones, is nearly worthless in the job market. So you have to go to grad school, where they ream you for hundreds of thousands, at outrageous interest rates that bubbleriders have never seen, even on home mortgages. Bubbleriders grew up with credit cards at lower interest rates than some student loans.
You're giving reasons people shouldn't go to college....which I agree with. If it's too expensive, then it doesn't make sense to do it.
The college bubble has to burst sometime soon. With the internet, you have access to all the info and networking you want. The price of tuition has outpaced inflation and wages for many, many years. It's just not worth it.
The internet doesn't produce doctors, nurses, radiologists, engineers, physicists, chemists, or any of the other hard science careers. Should a poor guy go to 4 year college to study philosophy? Of course not, but should we limit the sciences to those who can afford the education? That is a ludicrous idea.
There are a few career paths that probably require college, but many should/do not, and I would argue that much of the "general studies" classes you take in the first 2 years or so should be removed from the curriculum. They just add to the time and expense.
I honestly can't see how someone could think that college is even remotely worth what it used to be in relative terms. Its necessity is fading fast....only outpaced by the rate at which it increases its own price. That's a recipe for its own demise.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I say this without rancor, but it's easy to say for those who graduated in the 80's or 90's. Those in this group don't fairly appraise the difficulties to students now. The job market is crap, purchasing power is pathetic and costs rise between 15% and 30% every year. Books, gas money, parking passes that cost $200 dollars, it's easy to feel superior to "kids these days" but things are bad and getting worse. You can work your way through undergrad with little to no debt, and you end up with a degree that, aside from a few specific ones, is nearly worthless in the job market. So you have to go to grad school, where they ream you for hundreds of thousands, at outrageous interest rates that bubbleriders have never seen, even on home mortgages. Bubbleriders grew up with credit cards at lower interest rates than some student loans.
You're giving reasons people shouldn't go to college....which I agree with. If it's too expensive, then it doesn't make sense to do it.
The college bubble has to burst sometime soon. With the internet, you have access to all the info and networking you want. The price of tuition has outpaced inflation and wages for many, many years. It's just not worth it.
The internet doesn't produce doctors, nurses, radiologists, engineers, physicists, chemists, or any of the other hard science careers. Should a poor guy go to 4 year college to study philosophy? Of course not, but should we limit the sciences to those who can afford the education? That is a ludicrous idea.
There are a few career paths that probably require college, but many should/do not, and I would argue that much of the "general studies" classes you take in the first 2 years or so should be removed from the curriculum. They just add to the time and expense.
I honestly can't see how someone could think that college is even remotely worth what it used to be in relative terms. Its necessity is fading fast....only outpaced by the rate at which it increases its own price. That's a recipe for its own demise.
Do you not see the consequences if we allow ambivalence to be the course of action and do nothing to stem the rising cost? The entire world will leave us behind in math and science, alternative energy, technology and literature. People complain now about it being hard to find American born doctors, physicists, and chemists, what will it be like if we allow this to continue? It is a very near-sighted attitude that those over 35 tend to hold on this topic, as if it doesn't effect them. It comes across like "I got mine, worry about yourself" This is a national security issue, an economic security issue, and a global climate issue. Doing nothing is only an option for an ostrich.
I don't think I expressed myself well in my earlier post. I don't want to discourage anyone from getting further education; far from it. However, it needs to be done with realistic planning, without a lot of wasted time. If someone doesn't know what they want to study, then they probably shouldn't be incurring debt for full time college or university; instead, they can be exploring their options and interests with part time or evening courses or volunteering while they work. And they need to keep their expectations reasonable. Perhaps I am cynical; I prefer to think I'm a realist.
Excellent advice.
Personally, I think college is too pricey for what it's worth these days. But if someone must go, I would encourage them to do so without taking out student loans.
Many moons ago I graduated with only $3,000 in loans and it still felt like a burden. I was able to pay for most of college by working almost 30 hours per week in addition to a full class load.
Great advice but not realistic for today's students. The whole "worked my way through college" thing is only remotely possible nowadays.
How so? I don't think that it is. If anything, it should be easier today.
That doesn't make sense. Rising college costs are outpacing inflation by up to 30% each year with dwindling job markets. How do you come to the conclusion that it should be easier today?
I said it should be easier to work while you're in college today. You said it's only remotely possible to work your way through college today. I disagree with you.
Again, this doesn't make sense. Service jobs are increasingly taken by older than school age individuals, a trip to any grocery store, restaurant, or fast food stop will be sufficient evidence of this if you haven't noticed yet. So, with jobs harder to come by, wit the percentage of income going to food, fuel, and shelter ever increasing, and costs ever rising, I ask again, how do you come to the conclusion it's easier now? You sound like Andy Rooney on the PJ20 DVD, critical of youth but without taking a second to look at the challenges they are facing.
I say this without rancor, but it's easy to say for those who graduated in the 80's or 90's. Those in this group don't fairly appraise the difficulties to students now. The job market is crap, purchasing power is pathetic and costs rise between 15% and 30% every year. Books, gas money, parking passes that cost $200 dollars, it's easy to feel superior to "kids these days" but things are bad and getting worse. You can work your way through undergrad with little to no debt, and you end up with a degree that, aside from a few specific ones, is nearly worthless in the job market. So you have to go to grad school, where they ream you for hundreds of thousands, at outrageous interest rates that bubbleriders have never seen, even on home mortgages. Bubbleriders grew up with credit cards at lower interest rates than some student loans.
You're giving reasons people shouldn't go to college....which I agree with. If it's too expensive, then it doesn't make sense to do it.
The college bubble has to burst sometime soon. With the internet, you have access to all the info and networking you want. The price of tuition has outpaced inflation and wages for many, many years. It's just not worth it.
The internet doesn't produce doctors, nurses, radiologists, engineers, physicists, chemists, or any of the other hard science careers. Should a poor guy go to 4 year college to study philosophy? Of course not, but should we limit the sciences to those who can afford the education? That is a ludicrous idea.
There are a few career paths that probably require college, but many should/do not, and I would argue that much of the "general studies" classes you take in the first 2 years or so should be removed from the curriculum. They just add to the time and expense.
I honestly can't see how someone could think that college is even remotely worth what it used to be in relative terms. Its necessity is fading fast....only outpaced by the rate at which it increases its own price. That's a recipe for its own demise.
Do you not see the consequences if we allow ambivalence to be the course of action and do nothing to stem the rising cost? The entire world will leave us behind in math and science, alternative energy, technology and literature. People complain now about it being hard to find American born doctors, physicists, and chemists, what will it be like if we allow this to continue? It is a very near-sighted attitude that those over 35 tend to hold on this topic, as if it doesn't effect them. It comes across like "I got mine, worry about yourself" This is a national security issue, an economic security issue, and a global climate issue. Doing nothing is only an option for an ostrich.
I see college as an aging, over-priced dinosaur. I think there are opportunities to become educated and knowledgeable that aren't as antiquated and expensive as having to attend the classes and exams in person. Before communication, technology and access to information were as prevalent as they are today, maybe it made sense.
But, If you want to stem the cost, stop encouraging people to go to college. They have to lower tuition if nobody is willing to pay, right?
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I say this without rancor, but it's easy to say for those who graduated in the 80's or 90's. Those in this group don't fairly appraise the difficulties to students now. The job market is crap, purchasing power is pathetic and costs rise between 15% and 30% every year. Books, gas money, parking passes that cost $200 dollars, it's easy to feel superior to "kids these days" but things are bad and getting worse. You can work your way through undergrad with little to no debt, and you end up with a degree that, aside from a few specific ones, is nearly worthless in the job market. So you have to go to grad school, where they ream you for hundreds of thousands, at outrageous interest rates that bubbleriders have never seen, even on home mortgages. Bubbleriders grew up with credit cards at lower interest rates than some student loans.
You're giving reasons people shouldn't go to college....which I agree with. If it's too expensive, then it doesn't make sense to do it.
The college bubble has to burst sometime soon. With the internet, you have access to all the info and networking you want. The price of tuition has outpaced inflation and wages for many, many years. It's just not worth it.
The internet doesn't produce doctors, nurses, radiologists, engineers, physicists, chemists, or any of the other hard science careers. Should a poor guy go to 4 year college to study philosophy? Of course not, but should we limit the sciences to those who can afford the education? That is a ludicrous idea.
There are a few career paths that probably require college, but many should/do not, and I would argue that much of the "general studies" classes you take in the first 2 years or so should be removed from the curriculum. They just add to the time and expense.
I honestly can't see how someone could think that college is even remotely worth what it used to be in relative terms. Its necessity is fading fast....only outpaced by the rate at which it increases its own price. That's a recipe for its own demise.
Do you not see the consequences if we allow ambivalence to be the course of action and do nothing to stem the rising cost? The entire world will leave us behind in math and science, alternative energy, technology and literature. People complain now about it being hard to find American born doctors, physicists, and chemists, what will it be like if we allow this to continue? It is a very near-sighted attitude that those over 35 tend to hold on this topic, as if it doesn't effect them. It comes across like "I got mine, worry about yourself" This is a national security issue, an economic security issue, and a global climate issue. Doing nothing is only an option for an ostrich.
I see college as an aging, over-priced dinosaur. I think there are opportunities to become educated and knowledgeable that aren't as antiquated and expensive as having to attend the classes and exams in person. Before communication, technology and access to information were as prevalent as they are today, maybe it made sense.
But, If you want to stem the cost, stop encouraging people to go to college. They have to lower tuition if nobody is willing to pay, right?
I disagree. It wouldn't force them to lower tuitions. It would just leave it for the affluent to afford an education. The sick thing is it would probably then get supplemented by the taxpayer that can't even afford the education.
"Feel the path of everyday....which road you taking?"
Barrie, ON '98
Toronto, ON '00/'03/'06/'09/'11/'16(x2)
Hamilton, ON '05/'11
Newark, NJ '10
London, ON '13
Buffalo, NY '13
Detroit, MI '14
Ottawa, ON '16
I don't think I expressed myself well in my earlier post. I don't want to discourage anyone from getting further education; far from it. However, it needs to be done with realistic planning, without a lot of wasted time. If someone doesn't know what they want to study, then they probably shouldn't be incurring debt for full time college or university; instead, they can be exploring their options and interests with part time or evening courses or volunteering while they work. And they need to keep their expectations reasonable. Perhaps I am cynical; I prefer to think I'm a realist.
Excellent advice.
Personally, I think college is too pricey for what it's worth these days. But if someone must go, I would encourage them to do so without taking out student loans.
Many moons ago I graduated with only $3,000 in loans and it still felt like a burden. I was able to pay for most of college by working almost 30 hours per week in addition to a full class load.
Great advice but not realistic for today's students. The whole "worked my way through college" thing is only remotely possible nowadays.
How so? I don't think that it is. If anything, it should be easier today.
That doesn't make sense. Rising college costs are outpacing inflation by up to 30% each year with dwindling job markets. How do you come to the conclusion that it should be easier today?
I said it should be easier to work while you're in college today. You said it's only remotely possible to work your way through college today. I disagree with you.
Again, this doesn't make sense. Service jobs are increasingly taken by older than school age individuals, a trip to any grocery store, restaurant, or fast food stop will be sufficient evidence of this if you haven't noticed yet. So, with jobs harder to come by, wit the percentage of income going to food, fuel, and shelter ever increasing, and costs ever rising, I ask again, how do you come to the conclusion it's easier now? You sound like Andy Rooney on the PJ20 DVD, critical of youth but without taking a second to look at the challenges they are facing.
I'm not critical of youth. I'm critical of the colleges who keep raising tuition at a rate faster than salaries and inflation are increasing. I just don't think it's wise for many people to attend them. And it's certainly not wise to rack up a bunch of high interest debt to do so.
If I had it to do over knowing what I do now, I would personally not attend college. I would find an entry level position in a field that interested me and work my way up. I would even take that position unpaid and make money delivering pizzas if I needed to on the side. College essentially taught me nothing that has helped me in my post college life. The only advantage is the degree listed on my resume (OT - resumes are going away as well. Companies just want to know you can do the job they're hiring you for).
I don't think it's as difficult to find a job as you seem to think, and I think the unemployment figures demonstrate that.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I don't think I expressed myself well in my earlier post. I don't want to discourage anyone from getting further education; far from it. However, it needs to be done with realistic planning, without a lot of wasted time. If someone doesn't know what they want to study, then they probably shouldn't be incurring debt for full time college or university; instead, they can be exploring their options and interests with part time or evening courses or volunteering while they work. And they need to keep their expectations reasonable. Perhaps I am cynical; I prefer to think I'm a realist.
Excellent advice.
Personally, I think college is too pricey for what it's worth these days. But if someone must go, I would encourage them to do so without taking out student loans.
Many moons ago I graduated with only $3,000 in loans and it still felt like a burden. I was able to pay for most of college by working almost 30 hours per week in addition to a full class load.
Great advice but not realistic for today's students. The whole "worked my way through college" thing is only remotely possible nowadays.
How so? I don't think that it is. If anything, it should be easier today.
That doesn't make sense. Rising college costs are outpacing inflation by up to 30% each year with dwindling job markets. How do you come to the conclusion that it should be easier today?
I said it should be easier to work while you're in college today. You said it's only remotely possible to work your way through college today. I disagree with you.
Again, this doesn't make sense. Service jobs are increasingly taken by older than school age individuals, a trip to any grocery store, restaurant, or fast food stop will be sufficient evidence of this if you haven't noticed yet. So, with jobs harder to come by, wit the percentage of income going to food, fuel, and shelter ever increasing, and costs ever rising, I ask again, how do you come to the conclusion it's easier now? You sound like Andy Rooney on the PJ20 DVD, critical of youth but without taking a second to look at the challenges they are facing.
I'm not critical of youth. I'm critical of the colleges who keep raising tuition at a rate faster than salaries and inflation are increasing. I just don't think it's wise for many people to attend them. And it's certainly not wise to rack up a bunch of high interest debt to do so.
If I had it to do over knowing what I do now, I would personally not attend college. I would find an entry level position in a field that interested me and work my way up. I would even take that position unpaid and make money delivering pizzas if I needed to on the side. College essentially taught me nothing that has helped me in my post college life. The only advantage is the degree listed on my resume (OT - resumes are going away as well. Companies just want to know you can do the job they're hiring you for).
I don't think it's as difficult to find a job as you seem to think, and I think the unemployment figures demonstrate that.
Unemployment figures have been proven to be lower than real unemployment/underemployment rates ever since they were instituted. I don't think bubbleriders are in a position to judge how difficult it is to find a job now, and they certainly overestimate the opportunity to work your way up. I have worked as a surgical assistant, proven myself ON THE JOB, and without a degree, I will never be able to work in the field again...grandfather clauses are the past, decent jobs require degrees now. The bubble has burst, the riders just refuse to see it. Companies don't just want to know you can do the job, it's ludicrous to think that with so many college grads you will get the job without a degree over someone who has one. I agree that the proliferation of college attendance is a negative trend, but if we scrap the university model we WILL fall behind in science and technology.
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Definitely not for everyone though. And there is a sexual inequality problem in most trades, so that's a problem. I don't mean just that there are hardly any women in the trades (which is true). I mean that from everything I hear women are actually discriminated against when they enter the trades.
JasonP the factory I quit is closing it's doors because it can't make money on so much forced OT. Graphic Packaging is no outlier, the big manufacturing corps are all going this route...maybe they want to drive them all under so they can relocate to the third world, I don't know, but it is not an isolated event for sure. I hope things stay reasonable where you are!
One thing trade schools and apprenticship should offer is life planning and money management courses (maybe they do). I see so many guys that get on a hot job making tons of O.T. for a good period of time just blow the money they make.
I dealt with the gender issue a month ago.A women applied with us for a job usually know as a mans position.(In our firm the office is all women and the field is all men).She was qualified,built to handle the physical nature of the position and hungry for the job.I was going to offer her the position but she had a bad driving record.so no go.But we had no issue with the gender.Her pay would have been dead even of that of a male in the same role.If you can do the job,more power to ya.
And since this was a class photo, the circle has been completed and we are back to talking about students
We need to wake up and stop blindly borrowing money to go to something that is not worth what you pay for it.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Personally, I think college is too pricey for what it's worth these days. But if someone must go, I would encourage them to do so without taking out student loans.
Many moons ago I graduated with only $3,000 in loans and it still felt like a burden. I was able to pay for most of college by working almost 30 hours per week in addition to a full class load.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
While attending though, I paid for everything myself. I'm not sure if the costs are relative to what they are now (I'd imagine so?), but books, parking passes, tuition and the like - all on me. Haven't used a credit card in over 20 years either.
For the record, I don't feel superior to anyone; however, I do think some made/make terrible financial decisions, whether related to education or even mortgages as you mentioned.
No one "has" to do anything. There are other ways - maybe not seeing that is part of the problem.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
The college bubble has to burst sometime soon. With the internet, you have access to all the info and networking you want. The price of tuition has outpaced inflation and wages for many, many years. It's just not worth it.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I honestly can't see how someone could think that college is even remotely worth what it used to be in relative terms. Its necessity is fading fast....only outpaced by the rate at which it increases its own price. That's a recipe for its own demise.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
You sound like Andy Rooney on the PJ20 DVD, critical of youth but without taking a second to look at the challenges they are facing.
But, If you want to stem the cost, stop encouraging people to go to college. They have to lower tuition if nobody is willing to pay, right?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Barrie, ON '98
Toronto, ON '00/'03/'06/'09/'11/'16(x2)
Hamilton, ON '05/'11
Newark, NJ '10
London, ON '13
Buffalo, NY '13
Detroit, MI '14
Ottawa, ON '16
If I had it to do over knowing what I do now, I would personally not attend college. I would find an entry level position in a field that interested me and work my way up. I would even take that position unpaid and make money delivering pizzas if I needed to on the side. College essentially taught me nothing that has helped me in my post college life. The only advantage is the degree listed on my resume (OT - resumes are going away as well. Companies just want to know you can do the job they're hiring you for).
I don't think it's as difficult to find a job as you seem to think, and I think the unemployment figures demonstrate that.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.