This has more to do with parental stupidity than gun laws. I am by no means a gun lobby advocate, but this isn't a great example for the anti's. It's pure adult stupidity. When can we outlaw that? That's a far bigger scourge on our society bc it leads to stuff like this.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
i am pretty certain this wasn't a automatic uzi. please correct me if i m wrong
It was an automatic. The cops released video footage that stops right before the instructor is mowed down. She fires one shot on semi-auto, and then the instructor standing to her left clicks auto on. When she pulled the trigger the recoil causes the gun to raise to the left quickly an unfortunatly the arc is heading right towards the guys head. It happened really fast.
As noted earlier, this happend to an eight year old boy several years ago at a gun show, but the boy ended up shooting himself. The "instructor" was 15 years old and claimed he told the father twice that the gun was too powerful but the father insisted he be allowed to shoot the uzi.
maaaaaaan....I just finished reading all your thought's on this topic and I understand your anger and knee jerk reactions to the accident,all the name calling etc. Thirty is it really yours- mine or anybody elses place to tell another person what kind of rifle or hand gun they can have ? for the most part you all agree it's a people issue and not a gun issue (we've come a long way baby) also I think good people make bad choices sometimes....anybody here ever made a mistake they wish they could take back ?
This has more to do with parental stupidity than gun laws. I am by no means a gun lobby advocate, but this isn't a great example for the anti's. It's pure adult stupidity. When can we outlaw that? That's a far bigger scourge on our society bc it leads to stuff like this.
True but it is the gun culture and it's acceptance in the US that instilled the thought that it would be a great family outing to shoot guns for fun.
maaaaaaan....I just finished reading all your thought's on this topic and I understand your anger and knee jerk reactions to the accident,all the name calling etc. Thirty is it really yours- mine or anybody elses place to tell another person what kind of rifle or hand gun they can have ? for the most part you all agree it's a people issue and not a gun issue (we've come a long way baby) also I think good people make bad choices sometimes....anybody here ever made a mistake they wish they could take back ?
Godfather.
Mistake? This isn't like forgetting to put the garbage out at the curb or skipping out on the office Christmas party. This is willful negligence by both the range and the parents. It's also something that wouldn't happen in most industrialized societies simply because in other nations the idea of putting an uzi into the hands of a nine-year old is completely unacceptable. Don't worry though, I'm sure that no laws will be changed as a result of this so-called tragedy.
This has more to do with parental stupidity than gun laws. I am by no means a gun lobby advocate, but this isn't a great example for the anti's. It's pure adult stupidity. When can we outlaw that? That's a far bigger scourge on our society bc it leads to stuff like this.
Stupidity yes....sometimes the government needs to step in and help us not be so stupid.
Seat belt laws, helmet laws, age limits for driving/drinking, etc.
That type of weapon has no place in a civilized population, especially in the hands of a 9 year old.
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
maaaaaaan....I just finished reading all your thought's on this topic and I understand your anger and knee jerk reactions to the accident,all the name calling etc. Thirty is it really yours- mine or anybody elses place to tell another person what kind of rifle or hand gun they can have ? for the most part you all agree it's a people issue and not a gun issue (we've come a long way baby) also I think good people make bad choices sometimes....anybody here ever made a mistake they wish they could take back ?
Godfather.
These reactions aren't knee-jerk reactions, Godfather. They are expressions of exasperation. People are genuinely tired of reading the same shit every day. They are also tired of the gun advocates' weak defences for the status quo.
Damn rights I think it's a person's place to place limits on what type of weaponry their neighbours can own. The car analogy is a really goofy one that enthusiasts like to use... in the name of safety... there's limits on speed and usage (seat belts, daytime driving lights, etc.). There's restrictions on alcohol: a 20 year old can wear the uniform of the US army and risk their life for their country, but they can't go have a beer and a plate of nachos at their local pub.
Who's right is it to tell some urbanite they cannot own the cute little cougar cub for a pet that they found on their holiday trek through the mountains?
It's ludicrous. Seriously. But, like someone said a few posts back, their won't be any changes to law so rest assured the spectacle will continue: the inmates are running the asylum.
This has more to do with parental stupidity than gun laws. I am by no means a gun lobby advocate, but this isn't a great example for the anti's. It's pure adult stupidity. When can we outlaw that? That's a far bigger scourge on our society bc it leads to stuff like this.
Stupidity yes....sometimes the government needs to step in and help us not be so stupid.
Seat belt laws, helmet laws, age limits for driving/drinking, etc.
That type of weapon has no place in a civilized population, especially in the hands of a 9 year old.
I don't need government to protect me from myself. I can handle the job and I understand risk.
This has more to do with parental stupidity than gun laws. I am by no means a gun lobby advocate, but this isn't a great example for the anti's. It's pure adult stupidity. When can we outlaw that? That's a far bigger scourge on our society bc it leads to stuff like this.
Stupidity yes....sometimes the government needs to step in and help us not be so stupid.
Seat belt laws, helmet laws, age limits for driving/drinking, etc.
That type of weapon has no place in a civilized population, especially in the hands of a 9 year old.
I don't need government to protect me from myself. I can handle the job and I understand risk.
I generally agree that I also don't want the government to protect me. The problem comes in when our choices affect others. That's the gray area.
This has more to do with parental stupidity than gun laws. I am by no means a gun lobby advocate, but this isn't a great example for the anti's. It's pure adult stupidity. When can we outlaw that? That's a far bigger scourge on our society bc it leads to stuff like this.
Stupidity yes....sometimes the government needs to step in and help us not be so stupid.
Seat belt laws, helmet laws, age limits for driving/drinking, etc.
That type of weapon has no place in a civilized population, especially in the hands of a 9 year old.
I don't need government to protect me from myself. I can handle the job and I understand risk.
But you DO need the government to protect you from lots of other things whether you like it or not. If you eat, drink water, drive on roads, that is.
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
This has more to do with parental stupidity than gun laws. I am by no means a gun lobby advocate, but this isn't a great example for the anti's. It's pure adult stupidity. When can we outlaw that? That's a far bigger scourge on our society bc it leads to stuff like this.
Stupidity and deadly weapons don't mix well. If society insists on being stupid, smarter gun laws are necessary. Especially when it comes to dumb parents.
I don't need government to protect me from myself. I can handle the job and I understand risk.
I'm sure you can. But what about all those idiots out there risking everyone else's life? Those that clearly should not have a weapon in hand? Sure, the mentally unstable have probably been talked a lot here on other gun threads, but what about Stupid 'Merica?
maaaaaaan....I just finished reading all your thought's on this topic and I understand your anger and knee jerk reactions to the accident,all the name calling etc. Thirty is it really yours- mine or anybody elses place to tell another person what kind of rifle or hand gun they can have ? for the most part you all agree it's a people issue and not a gun issue (we've come a long way baby) also I think good people make bad choices sometimes....anybody here ever made a mistake they wish they could take back ?
Godfather.
Mistake? This isn't like forgetting to put the garbage out at the curb or skipping out on the office Christmas party. This is willful negligence by both the range and the parents. It's also something that wouldn't happen in most industrialized societies simply because in other nations the idea of putting an uzi into the hands of a nine-year old is completely unacceptable. Don't worry though, I'm sure that no laws will be changed as a result of this so-called tragedy.
Yes because without govt there would be poisonous food and water.
*edit rant out*
Not worth it. The hypocrisy is too powerful.
Honestly?
The government regulates thousands of aspects of people's lives including food and water supplies. Building codes ensure that we don't see buildings collapse or bridges fail the way they often do in less developed nations. Do you really think that people should be allowed to drive drunk, ignore every traffic rule, running lights or driving on the sidewalk as they please? Perhaps children should be able to drive. Heck, why not get rid of driver's licences altogether?
Governments are often bloated, incompetent, poorly managed and corrupt but they are a necessary evil as private citizens are no better. Without your government, who would hold a food manufacturer accountable for unsafe or contaminated food? Who would come after a water company for failing to provide safe, potable water to consumers? It's pretty easy to hate governments for being overbearing and deeply rooted in our lives, but I shudder at the thought of living in a society without any form of proper governance.
Governments are often bloated, incompetent, poorly managed and corrupt but they are a necessary evil as private citizens are no better. Without your government, who would hold a food manufacturer accountable for unsafe or contaminated food? Who would come after a water company for failing to provide safe, potable water to consumers? It's pretty easy to hate governments for being overbearing and deeply rooted in our lives, but I shudder at the thought of living in a society without any form of proper governance.
Couldn't agree more...though I think those last two words are paramount.
this is when it was really neat way back when. ppl had little farms, raised chickens, geese, maybe some turkey, cattle & hogs & they grew crops, gardens & fruit trees & tilled up the earth with these big ass work horses & oxen. they had a place right near a spring that gushed out cold as shit pure as fuck water.
many amish & the like or just folks wanting to be left the fuck alone live this way right now. good for them. this is wonderful stuff... they hold themselves accountable
when chaos reigns i am certain i would go find these people & hire myself at their place. good luck
chadwick, that's like a fantasy life (retirement?) for us...plus lots of cats and dogs. Live off the land, harness solar energy, just be self-reliant, and...just be.
It's kind of like the old tribes...time spent harvesting and reaping the necessities of life. Simple shit. Happy with simple shit. No luxuries, or maybe meeting those needs was a luxury in itself?
There was a series a few years ago on PBS called Frontier House. Families essentially living as those did in the late 1800s. Absolutely fascinating how people not only sustained themselves but also how bartering came into play.
(and yes, we should all hold ourselves accountable)
No laws will be changed i say let the gun nuts keep on doing shit like this , if your an asinine parent and wish to put your kids in harms way go ahead , you would think a simple age restriction law on how old a child must be before being allowed to go into shooting ranges could be implemented but not in the USA ....And yes the kid was put in harms way and now that harm will go on for ever for her ........
Oh sure, I didn't mean folks in cattle country. Of course there are legit reasons for some Canadians (and Americans) to have guns, and I know there are plenty of hunters in Canada too (I've never known any though). Just talking about where I'm from (Vancouver). Hardly anyone in these parts (besides gang members) can even relate to gun ownership - certainly not in urban areas. But in the US it seems like having a gun in the house is the rule rather than exception, and that just seems strange to me!
Not everyone here owns a gun or even likes them. Please do not generalize the entire population due to what the media and the NRA tells you.
I didn't mean literally. I assumed everyone would understand that.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
This has more to do with parental stupidity than gun laws. I am by no means a gun lobby advocate, but this isn't a great example for the anti's. It's pure adult stupidity. When can we outlaw that? That's a far bigger scourge on our society bc it leads to stuff like this.
Totally agree. Just because this happened it doesn't mean that the instructor was terrible. It means the instructor made a mistake. Even the best instructors could make a mistake. It only takes an instant. The parents very deliberately put their child in danger in the name of fun. However, that it's legal for a 9 year old to just go to a gun range and fire an uzi is ludicrous as well.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
This has more to do with parental stupidity than gun laws. I am by no means a gun lobby advocate, but this isn't a great example for the anti's. It's pure adult stupidity. When can we outlaw that? That's a far bigger scourge on our society bc it leads to stuff like this.
Edson, I'm tempted to say, "Yes, we should outlaw stupidity" but that would be rather, umm, stupid! What we could do, however, is discourage stupidity starting with improving at least half of the articles, books, movies, television shows, video games and other media which are rife with stupidity.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
yes the instructor was terrible. who gives a child a semi automatic or automatic uzi (it doesn't matter which one, that's a stupid fucking choice in gun to have a child handle & fire off) full of rounds to be shown how to shoot targets? instructor is a title used lightly here. more like show off maybe or "hey i left my thinkingskills at home when i got out of bed" im sorry he is dead. i am sorry this little kid smoked his ass. it's all about being a terrible gun instructor with a child & a machine gun full of ammo
i think it's "goofy" to not associate cars with your hypocrisy. to go from one extreme of every single life is so precious and beautiful to, oh well that sucks but we don't need to do whatever it takes, it's acceptable, just screams hypocrisy to me. it's a great way to point out that you anti gunners in fact don't give a flying fuck about human lives.....you just don't like guns. which is fine, it's just a little annoying to keep hearing why the reason you don't like guns is because human life is just so precious to you when it's obviously not.
with cars it's pretty straight forward what needs to be done. put up more lights, more warning signs, make cars safer, reduce speed limits make cars go slower. with guns, there is no clear forward path. you guys ban assault rifles and high cap mags and there's still violence. you make it so people can't defend themselves by carrying a pistol and there's still violence. you put up signs saying no guns and make it illegal to kill people and guess what there's still violence. most of you pretty much acknowledge that you can't do anything to stop the violence, so what's the best solution? get rid of guns. i'm down with getting rid of my guns, just want a little quid pro quo with regards to cars, knives, alcohol, and tobacco. it all kills, getting rid of that stuff would undoubtedly save lives. no more, my killers are your cool i'm keeping my killers but you get rid of your killers. no more of that please. if you anti gunners are down to give up your steak knives and cars to save lives, i'm down to give up my guns. until then, click click boom
if you think what I believe is stupid, bizarre, ridiculous or outrageous.....it's ok, I think I had a brain tumor when I wrote that.
cars are a bullshit analogy. Sorry dude. Primarily in this thread related to this specific incident its been quite clearly stated by all that the parents were wrong in allowing this and the instructor not as diligent as he should have been in the first place.
You have been in my estimation fairly reasonable up to know in regards to a measure of responsibility and need for smart regulation. What happened?
maybe I am wrong here. I thought at a range , where i believe many classes are held as to gun safety etc, would be a place where STUPID FUCKING DECISIONS arent made.
So I ask you, what about this girl? What kind of help should she get? First by being born to what appears to be woefully in adequate parents, second for the aftermath of the actions of the "instructor"?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
i think it's "goofy" to not associate cars with your hypocrisy. to go from one extreme of every single life is so precious and beautiful to, oh well that sucks but we don't need to do whatever it takes, it's acceptable, just screams hypocrisy to me. it's a great way to point out that you anti gunners in fact don't give a flying fuck about human lives.....you just don't like guns. which is fine, it's just a little annoying to keep hearing why the reason you don't like guns is because human life is just so precious to you when it's obviously not.
with cars it's pretty straight forward what needs to be done. put up more lights, more warning signs, make cars safer, reduce speed limits make cars go slower. with guns, there is no clear forward path. you guys ban assault rifles and high cap mags and there's still violence. you make it so people can't defend themselves by carrying a pistol and there's still violence. you put up signs saying no guns and make it illegal to kill people and guess what there's still violence. most of you pretty much acknowledge that you can't do anything to stop the violence, so what's the best solution? get rid of guns. i'm down with getting rid of my guns, just want a little quid pro quo with regards to cars, knives, alcohol, and tobacco. it all kills, getting rid of that stuff would undoubtedly save lives. no more, my killers are your cool i'm keeping my killers but you get rid of your killers. no more of that please. if you anti gunners are down to give up your steak knives and cars to save lives, i'm down to give up my guns. until then, click click boom
I'd echo what Mickeyrat said about you being one of the most reasoned voices for gun advocacy, however this post is out there.
* Cars kill... but they are made for transportation. A trade off we'll have to live with unless we all get horses and move to local economies. * Steak knives kill... but they are made for cutting food. A trade off we'll have to live with unless we want to eat with our hands. * Alcohol and tobacco might kill... and these should hold their own threads- the trade off might not be worth it and you have a reasonable argument here (but not a great one- don't get too excited).
* Guns kill... and they are made for killing. What's the trade off here? I get 'shooting shit' might be fun, but the downside to the 'fun' is pretty gross.
Comments
As noted earlier, this happend to an eight year old boy several years ago at a gun show, but the boy ended up shooting himself. The "instructor" was 15 years old and claimed he told the father twice that the gun was too powerful but the father insisted he be allowed to shoot the uzi.
Thirty is it really yours- mine or anybody elses place to tell another person what kind of rifle or hand gun they can have ? for the most part you all agree it's a people issue and not a gun issue (we've come a long way baby) also I think good people make bad choices sometimes....anybody here ever made a mistake they wish they could take back ?
Godfather.
Seat belt laws, helmet laws, age limits for driving/drinking, etc.
That type of weapon has no place in a civilized population, especially in the hands of a 9 year old.
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
Damn rights I think it's a person's place to place limits on what type of weaponry their neighbours can own. The car analogy is a really goofy one that enthusiasts like to use... in the name of safety... there's limits on speed and usage (seat belts, daytime driving lights, etc.). There's restrictions on alcohol: a 20 year old can wear the uniform of the US army and risk their life for their country, but they can't go have a beer and a plate of nachos at their local pub.
Who's right is it to tell some urbanite they cannot own the cute little cougar cub for a pet that they found on their holiday trek through the mountains?
It's ludicrous. Seriously. But, like someone said a few posts back, their won't be any changes to law so rest assured the spectacle will continue: the inmates are running the asylum.
I don't need government to protect me from myself. I can handle the job and I understand risk.
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
*edit rant out*
Not worth it. The hypocrisy is too powerful.
Godfather.
We're getting a taste of part of that world as it relates to gun control.
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana
The government regulates thousands of aspects of people's lives including food and water supplies. Building codes ensure that we don't see buildings collapse or bridges fail the way they often do in less developed nations. Do you really think that people should be allowed to drive drunk, ignore every traffic rule, running lights or driving on the sidewalk as they please? Perhaps children should be able to drive. Heck, why not get rid of driver's licences altogether?
Governments are often bloated, incompetent, poorly managed and corrupt but they are a necessary evil as private citizens are no better. Without your government, who would hold a food manufacturer accountable for unsafe or contaminated food? Who would come after a water company for failing to provide safe, potable water to consumers? It's pretty easy to hate governments for being overbearing and deeply rooted in our lives, but I shudder at the thought of living in a society without any form of proper governance.
many amish & the like or just folks wanting to be left the fuck alone live this way right now. good for them. this is wonderful stuff... they hold themselves accountable
when chaos reigns i am certain i would go find these people & hire myself at their place. good luck
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
It's kind of like the old tribes...time spent harvesting and reaping the necessities of life. Simple shit. Happy with simple shit. No luxuries, or maybe meeting those needs was a luxury in itself?
There was a series a few years ago on PBS called Frontier House. Families essentially living as those did in the late 1800s. Absolutely fascinating how people not only sustained themselves but also how bartering came into play.
(and yes, we should all hold ourselves accountable)
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
with cars it's pretty straight forward what needs to be done. put up more lights, more warning signs, make cars safer, reduce speed limits make cars go slower. with guns, there is no clear forward path. you guys ban assault rifles and high cap mags and there's still violence. you make it so people can't defend themselves by carrying a pistol and there's still violence. you put up signs saying no guns and make it illegal to kill people and guess what there's still violence. most of you pretty much acknowledge that you can't do anything to stop the violence, so what's the best solution? get rid of guns. i'm down with getting rid of my guns, just want a little quid pro quo with regards to cars, knives, alcohol, and tobacco. it all kills, getting rid of that stuff would undoubtedly save lives. no more, my killers are your cool i'm keeping my killers but you get rid of your killers. no more of that please. if you anti gunners are down to give up your steak knives and cars to save lives, i'm down to give up my guns. until then, click click boom
You have been in my estimation fairly reasonable up to know in regards to a measure of responsibility and need for smart regulation. What happened?
maybe I am wrong here. I thought at a range , where i believe many classes are held as to gun safety etc, would be a place where STUPID FUCKING DECISIONS arent made.
So I ask you, what about this girl? What kind of help should she get? First by being born to what appears to be woefully in adequate parents, second for the aftermath of the actions of the "instructor"?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
* Cars kill... but they are made for transportation. A trade off we'll have to live with unless we all get horses and move to local economies.
* Steak knives kill... but they are made for cutting food. A trade off we'll have to live with unless we want to eat with our hands.
* Alcohol and tobacco might kill... and these should hold their own threads- the trade off might not be worth it and you have a reasonable argument here (but not a great one- don't get too excited).
* Guns kill... and they are made for killing. What's the trade off here? I get 'shooting shit' might be fun, but the downside to the 'fun' is pretty gross.