All the details make it seem like it is the same agreement Egypt put on the table on July 15th. Hamas turned it down and the Palestinians suffered in return. Agreement also allows Israel to continue to destroy tunnels during the ceasefire which they claim will only take another three days to complete. So it looks like Hamas capitulated and it is thankfully winding down. Now it is time for the world (and people on this forum) to throw there support behind the Palestinian Authority so that Hamas can be removed from the equation and a real peace can be forged.
A real peace? And what do you mean by a real peace? Do you mean a 'peace' like that offered to the Israeli's by the PA, and disclosed by the Palestine Papers released by Wikileaks,which show that the PA offered the Israeli's the chance to keep all of their settlements, and in which they forfeited every single right they possessed under international law - including the right of return? Is that the kind of 'peace' you're referring to? Because the Israeli's rejected their offer.
This is not something I have ever said. To suggest that is a willful distortion. You can criticize Israel. You can want the end of Hamas at the same time. Not mutually exclusive views. Some of you only want to discuss one while refusing to discuss the other. When I mention this I get accused of DEFLECTION.
You claim to read everything posted here. What do you think about the article 'fuck' posted?:
Palestinian Resistance: an icon for those who long to live free
I'm now bowing out getting personal with you. Care to do the same? I believe in communication, but communicating with an angry person is ridiculous. Nothing is ever solved that way.
Does this man's anger bother you? Do you think it's wrong for him to be angry? Would you like to tell him that this conflict is simply about two sides needing to give up their egos? Would you like to tell him that he shouldn't be angry, but should instead talk about 'peace', and 'understanding', and that he should be more open-minded? Would you like to tell him that 'we can't control what happens in the Middle East' - despite our tax dollars funding the slaughter, and our politicians supporting it - and that he should do nothing, and criticize nobody, and talk about 'peace' and 'love' instead?
I want the end of this conflict AND the end of Hamas.
Do you also want the end of the Zionists too?
Great question. Now we are getting somewhere. Answer though will depend on what you mean by Zionist. I have read all your posts so I know where you stand. Personally I have a problem with those that believe in an expansionist Israel based on some ridiculous biblical definition. There are a number of Jews that believe that all disputed land and even some more belong to the jewish people. That is just nonsense and "not ok in my book". Fortunately however the number of those jews are in the minority. I do believe however in the existence of Israel as a jewish state on some negotiated boundaries. (For people not up to speed Israel is predominantly a secular country so when someone describes it as a jewish state it is far more from a cultural then religious point of view.) What the final boundaries are, what walls should or should not come down based on security, what the right of return will be...all those details should be up for discussion by the people who actually live there (not me). Now I don't want a "race war" but I think by your previously posted definition you would still consider me a Zionist. I won't run from the label. I also won't allow you to convert the label into something evil. I'm just a guy. A guy who recognizes that Israel is not going away. It's borders might change but it's still going to be there and whether you like it or not at the end of the day it will be a Zionist like me that you will have to meet on the other side of the bargaining table.
This is not something I have ever said. To suggest that is a willful distortion. You can criticize Israel. You can want the end of Hamas at the same time. Not mutually exclusive views. Some of you only want to discuss one while refusing to discuss the other. When I mention this I get accused of DEFLECTION.
You claim to read everything posted here. What do you think about the article 'fuck' posted?:
Palestinian Resistance: an icon for those who long to live free
Do I have to respond to every post on here? Make up your minds please! BadBrains wants me to leave and you want my thoughts on everything?
I kid, I kid
I read it before. I feel her pain...believe me I do. The problem is that resistance in ALL forms results in suicide bombings which results in retaliation, which results in more bombings, which results in walls, which results in missiles, which results in invasions, which results in more misery. Where does it end? You claim that this invasion is bringing the world to the Palestinian's side and I actually agree. The problem is effectively what does that mean? It's sadly Hashtag Support. Israel isn't going away and the poor Palestinians will be left as pawns in a far larger game. At some point resistance needs to end and negotiation needs to begin.
Is anybody here saying anything new? Or is this a hopeless debate that amounts to flinging the same insults at each other. Not that there aren't some good points here that might fit in well with other threads but why is this thread's topic being ignored? What are we doing here? It's like this:
"OK, let's talk about prospects for peace and the idea of working together in a troubled, inhumane and basically fucked up world."
"Yeah, sure, but hey!- did you see what those fuckers did?"
"Yeah, well fuck that man, what about those fuckers?"
"Fuck them."
Peace, hmmmm.
Fuck that?
Hey and save the hate mail because I don't have any enemies here, just a few people who think I and some others here are assholes and full of shit. I for one am only an asshole and full of shit 8% of the time.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Great question. Now we are getting somewhere. Answer though will depend on what you mean by Zionist. I have read all your posts so I know where you stand. Personally I have a problem with those that believe in an expansionist Israel based on some ridiculous biblical definition. There are a number of Jews that believe that all disputed land and even some more belong to the jewish people. That is just nonsense and "not ok in my book". Fortunately however the number of those jews are in the minority. I do believe however in the existence of Israel as a jewish state on some negotiated boundaries. (For people not up to speed Israel is predominantly a secular country so when someone describes it as a jewish state it is far more from a cultural then religious point of view.) What the final boundaries are, what walls should or should not come down based on security, what the right of return will be...all those details should be up for discussion by the people who actually live there (not me). Now I don't want a "race war" but I think by your previously posted definition you would still consider me a Zionist. I won't run from the label. I also won't allow you to convert the label into something evil. I'm just a guy. A guy who recognizes that Israel is not going away. It's borders might change but it's still going to be there and whether you like it or not at the end of the day it will be a Zionist like me that you will have to meet on the other side of the bargaining table.
Fair enough. Though Zionism isn't a cultural or religious ideology, it's a political ideology.
I read it before. I feel her pain...believe me I do. The problem is that resistance in ALL forms results in suicide bombings which results in retaliation, which results in more bombings, which results in walls, which results in missiles, which results in invasions, which results in more misery. Where does it end? You claim that this invasion is bringing the world to the Palestinian's side and I actually agree. The problem is effectively what does that mean? It's sadly Hashtag Support. Israel isn't going away and the poor Palestinians will be left as pawns in a far larger game. At some point resistance needs to end and negotiation needs to begin.
Nobody's called for Israel to go away as far as I'm aware. The Israeli's are entitled to live within their legal borders. The whole World accepts this - and Hamas have also stated that they accept it - and the U.S vetoes it every year when it comes to the voting table.
Israeli tanks opened fire in the southern Gaza Strip after a 72-hour truce began on Friday, a Reuters photographer and the Palestinian Interior Ministry said, and Hamas media reported that four people were killed.
This is not something I have ever said. To suggest that is a willful distortion. You can criticize Israel. You can want the end of Hamas at the same time. Not mutually exclusive views. Some of you only want to discuss one while refusing to discuss the other. When I mention this I get accused of DEFLECTION.
You claim to read everything posted here. What do you think about the article 'fuck' posted?:
Palestinian Resistance: an icon for those who long to live free
Do I have to respond to every post on here? Make up your minds please! BadBrains wants me to leave and you want my thoughts on everything?
I kid, I kid
I read it before. I feel her pain...believe me I do. The problem is that resistance in ALL forms results in suicide bombings which results in retaliation, which results in more bombings, which results in walls, which results in missiles, which results in invasions, which results in more misery. Where does it end? You claim that this invasion is bringing the world to the Palestinian's side and I actually agree. The problem is effectively what does that mean? It's sadly Hashtag Support. Israel isn't going away and the poor Palestinians will be left as pawns in a far larger game. At some point resistance needs to end and negotiation needs to begin.
This is what I've been saying as well.It is possible to not agree with Israeli aggression and want peace for the Palestinians ,and Speak against Hamas,and want non military solutions.It Dosent have to be one or the other or the other.The violence and blood shed has to stop for real substantial peace to be brokered.
Israeli tanks opened fire in the southern Gaza Strip after a 72-hour truce began on Friday, a Reuters photographer and the Palestinian Interior Ministry said, and Hamas media reported that four people were killed.
The Israeli military had no immediate comment.
Sounds to me like it was Hamas who broke the cease fire.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I've been really glad to see Jews speaking out around the world (including some in Israel) against the Israeli government's actions..... I hope those who are tending to blame Jews as opposed to that government (and Hamas) are taking note.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I think my favorite part of this and similar threads is that if you don't agree with me you're caving to propaganda, but what I post is definitely not propaganda especially if I post it over and over again.
Note: I am personally not calling anyone's posting propaganda. Just citing the
Israeli tanks opened fire in the southern Gaza Strip after a 72-hour truce began on Friday, a Reuters photographer and the Palestinian Interior Ministry said, and Hamas media reported that four people were killed.
The Israeli military had no immediate comment.
Sounds to me like it was Hamas who broke the cease fire.
It was. While the Israeli soldiers were seeking out to destroy the terror tunnels, a suicide bomber killed 2 soldiers and possibly the same or separate incident another soldier was taken hostage minutes after the cease fire.
John Kerry (and others) are calling for the unconditional return of the soldier captured to effectively break the terms of the cease fire.
But, don't worry - that will be dismissed a propaganda because it doesn't fit with a certain world view.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
I think my favorite part of this and similar threads is that if you don't agree with me you're caving to propaganda, but what I post is definitely not propaganda especially if I post it over and over again.
Note: I am personally not calling anyone's posting propaganda. Just citing the
Israeli tanks opened fire in the southern Gaza Strip after a 72-hour truce began on Friday, a Reuters photographer and the Palestinian Interior Ministry said, and Hamas media reported that four people were killed.
The Israeli military had no immediate comment.
Sounds to me like it was Hamas who broke the cease fire.
It was. While the Israeli soldiers were seeking out to destroy the terror tunnels, a suicide bomber killed 2 soldiers and possibly the same or separate incident another soldier was taken hostage minutes after the cease fire.
John Kerry (and others) are calling for the unconditional return of the soldier captured to effectively break the terms of the cease fire.
But, don't worry - that will be dismissed a propaganda because it doesn't fit with a certain world view.
"The Israeli army aid two soldiers were killed in fighting in the Gaza Strip Friday and named a third man feared captured as a Second Lieutenant Hadar Goldin, 23. Earlier an army spokesman said a 72-hour truce that was to have taken effect Friday morning was now over due to the incident."
Now if this happened before the cease fire began, then what's the issue? I dnt get it, are just Palestinian women/children the only targets acceptable? What I got out of that article is that Israel canceled the cease fire because this idf soldier was "captured" during the time of the conflict, NOT after the cease fire began. Anybody else get that?
With all due respect to Brian et al. who are trying to steer this thread into a thread for peace, I might be splitting hairs, but the title of this thread and Eddie Vedder's letter is "Imagine That -- I'm Still Anti-War." It is not "Imagine That -- I'm Preaching Peace."
Taken alone "anti" connotes a certain fierceness (an affectation that has often been attributed to the lyrical and vocal stylings of Eddie Vedder). According to merriam-webster.com, anti = one that is opposed.
And what I've read here is, for the most part, just that -- the fierce opinions of those who are opposed to war/institutional violence. Of course, as with any discussion in which there are multiple points of view, the debate can sometimes get personal due to the passionate positions of the participants. But I like to think that all of us are plenty thick-skinned enough to ignore that noise and get back to the topic at hand -- namely, opposing war. I haven't seen anything that has seemed willfully malicious, just fiery and at times dumb and reactionary -- and we've all been there (no offense meant).
Pro-peace is the complementary, or perhaps supplementary, side of being anti-war, but they are not one and the same.
"I myself once dabbled in pacifism," so if you want to start a thread somewhere with the objective of promoting peace, by all means, please do so (and pm me the link so that I might participate), but this ain't that thread. This is a thread for those who are ANTI-war.
I think my favorite part of this and similar threads is that if you don't agree with me you're caving to propaganda, but what I post is definitely not propaganda especially if I post it over and over again.
Note: I am personally not calling anyone's posting propaganda. Just citing the
Israeli tanks opened fire in the southern Gaza Strip after a 72-hour truce began on Friday, a Reuters photographer and the Palestinian Interior Ministry said, and Hamas media reported that four people were killed.
The Israeli military had no immediate comment.
Sounds to me like it was Hamas who broke the cease fire.
It was. While the Israeli soldiers were seeking out to destroy the terror tunnels, a suicide bomber killed 2 soldiers and possibly the same or separate incident another soldier was taken hostage minutes after the cease fire.
John Kerry (and others) are calling for the unconditional return of the soldier captured to effectively break the terms of the cease fire.
But, don't worry - that will be dismissed a propaganda because it doesn't fit with a certain world view.
I haven't read the terms and conditions of the cease fire carefully, but I would say where the blame resides in this instance is dependent on those. If it was formally agreed upon that Israel would cease the destruction of the tunnels for that duration, then of course, Israel is to blame. If it was not formally agreed upon, it seems to me it would be in Israel's hands whether or not they opt to retaliate. My vote would be against retaliation, since it's hard to verify whether a suicide bomber is acting independently, or as instructed by an organization like Hamas, and because, for fuck's sake, you have a volatile situation as it is, show some basic human compassion and empathy towards people who are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
With all due respect to Brian et al. who are trying to steer this thread into a thread for peace, I might be splitting hairs, but the title of this thread and Eddie Vedder's letter is "Imagine That -- I'm Still Anti-War." It is not "Imagine That -- I'm Preaching Peace."
Taken alone "anti" connotes a certain fierceness (an affectation that has often been attributed to the lyrical and vocal stylings of Eddie Vedder). According to merriam-webster.com, anti = one that is opposed.
And what I've read here is, for the most part, just that -- the fierce opinions of those who are opposed to war/institutional violence. Of course, as with any discussion in which there are multiple points of view, the debate can sometimes get personal due to the passionate positions of the participants. But I like to think that all of us are plenty thick-skinned enough to ignore that noise and get back to the topic at hand -- namely, opposing war. I haven't seen anything that has seemed willfully malicious, just fiery and at times dumb and reactionary -- and we've all been there (no offense meant).
Pro-peace is the complementary, or perhaps supplementary, side of being anti-war, but they are not one and the same.
"I myself once dabbled in pacifism," so if you want to start a thread somewhere with the objective of promoting peace, by all means, please do so (and pm me the link so that I might participate), but this ain't that thread. This is a thread for those who are ANTI-war.
That being said: As-salaam alaikum.
Ve'shalom shelcha, ve'al col hapalestinyim, ve'anashim b'col ha'olam.
PS This is most likely not proper Hebrew. I am rusty.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
I seriously doubt that a cease-fire could possibly include Israel ceasing the destruction of tunnels that are within their territory. Not dismissing everything that the Israeli government does, Hamas has a VERY bad track record as far as violating cease-fires go. I'm surprised anyone is even still bothering with these cease-fires. They never stick because Hamas always immediately lobs something over the fence and Israel always immediately retaliates.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Comments
Keep pretending that Hamas is the problem.
https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/condemn-apartheid-state-israel-their-human-rights-violations-against-palestinian-peoples/CjmPSCsG
Palestinian Resistance: an icon for those who long to live free
There are nations and peoples, other than the Palestinians, who understand what it means to prefer to die fighting than die on their knees
http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/palestinian-resistance-icon-those-who-long-live-free-1680919465
You have nothing to say about it?
Israel has gone mad..someone has to stop them!!
I kid, I kid
I read it before. I feel her pain...believe me I do. The problem is that resistance in ALL forms results in suicide bombings which results in retaliation, which results in more bombings, which results in walls, which results in missiles, which results in invasions, which results in more misery. Where does it end? You claim that this invasion is bringing the world to the Palestinian's side and I actually agree. The problem is effectively what does that mean? It's sadly Hashtag Support. Israel isn't going away and the poor Palestinians will be left as pawns in a far larger game. At some point resistance needs to end and negotiation needs to begin.
"OK, let's talk about prospects for peace and the idea of working together in a troubled, inhumane and basically fucked up world."
"Yeah, sure, but hey!- did you see what those fuckers did?"
"Yeah, well fuck that man, what about those fuckers?"
"Fuck them."
Peace, hmmmm.
Fuck that?
Hey and save the hate mail because I don't have any enemies here, just a few people who think I and some others here are assholes and full of shit. I for one am only an asshole and full of shit 8% of the time.
http://www.worldbulletin.net/haberler/141712/israeli-tank-fire-kills-4-after-truce-begins?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
World Bulletin/News Desk
Israeli tanks opened fire in the southern Gaza Strip after a 72-hour truce began on Friday, a Reuters photographer and the Palestinian Interior Ministry said, and Hamas media reported that four people were killed.
The Israeli military had no immediate comment.
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/08/01/oh-the-humanity-4/
(i joke)
"This time, Gaza fighting is 'proxy war' for entire Mideast"
http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/31/world/meast/israel-gaza-region/
:-bd
Note: I am personally not calling anyone's posting propaganda. Just citing the It was. While the Israeli soldiers were seeking out to destroy the terror tunnels, a suicide bomber killed 2 soldiers and possibly the same or separate incident another soldier was taken hostage minutes after the cease fire.
John Kerry (and others) are calling for the unconditional return of the soldier captured to effectively break the terms of the cease fire.
But, don't worry - that will be dismissed a propaganda because it doesn't fit with a certain world view.
"The Israeli army aid two soldiers were killed in fighting in the Gaza Strip Friday and named a third man feared captured as a Second Lieutenant Hadar Goldin, 23. Earlier an army spokesman said a 72-hour truce that was to have taken effect Friday morning was now over due to the incident."
Now if this happened before the cease fire began, then what's the issue? I dnt get it, are just Palestinian women/children the only targets acceptable? What I got out of that article is that Israel canceled the cease fire because this idf soldier was "captured" during the time of the conflict, NOT after the cease fire began. Anybody else get that?
Taken alone "anti" connotes a certain fierceness (an affectation that has often been attributed to the lyrical and vocal stylings of Eddie Vedder). According to merriam-webster.com, anti = one that is opposed.
And what I've read here is, for the most part, just that -- the fierce opinions of those who are opposed to war/institutional violence. Of course, as with any discussion in which there are multiple points of view, the debate can sometimes get personal due to the passionate positions of the participants. But I like to think that all of us are plenty thick-skinned enough to ignore that noise and get back to the topic at hand -- namely, opposing war. I haven't seen anything that has seemed willfully malicious, just fiery and at times dumb and reactionary -- and we've all been there (no offense meant).
Pro-peace is the complementary, or perhaps supplementary, side of being anti-war, but they are not one and the same.
"I myself once dabbled in pacifism," so if you want to start a thread somewhere with the objective of promoting peace, by all means, please do so (and pm me the link so that I might participate), but this ain't that thread. This is a thread for those who are ANTI-war.
That being said: As-salaam alaikum.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
PS This is most likely not proper Hebrew. I am rusty.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
Not dismissing everything that the Israeli government does, Hamas has a VERY bad track record as far as violating cease-fires go. I'm surprised anyone is even still bothering with these cease-fires. They never stick because Hamas always immediately lobs something over the fence and Israel always immediately retaliates.