5 Broken Cameras - Palestinian Documentary

badbrains

https://twitter.com/samir_latif/status/502397682455814144

dancinacrossthewater

Can we stop with the Star of David/money symbolism? That's where things go from anti-Israel to perpetuating stereotypes.

I can tell you from first hand experience not all Jews are rich.

badbrains

You can't even bury your dead without dodging bombs and missiles. Stay classy IDF:

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=722250&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

dancinacrossthewater

Actually, that star of david/dollar bill thing is the first thing I've seen on this board that actually approaches anti-semitism. The image of the rich or usurious jew goes back hundreds of years...think shylock from merchant of venice, etc.

badbrains, NOT calling you anti-semitic by any stretch. but that tweet is toeing the line.

badbrains

dancinacrossthewater said:

Can we stop with the Star of David/money symbolism? That's where things go from anti-Israel to perpetuating stereotypes.

I can tell you from first hand experience not all Jews are rich.

Has nothing to do with jewss being rich. Read the post Einstein. It talks about tax payers money going to country of Israel not to the Jews. Smh

dancinacrossthewater

The imagery plays into old anti-Semitic stereotypes man. You know it does. The issue is not with the information but with the graphic.

badbrains

dancinacrossthewater said:

Actually, that star of david/dollar bill thing is the first thing I've seen on this board that actually approaches anti-semitism. The image of the rich or usurious jew goes back hundreds of years...think shylock from merchant of venice, etc.

badbrains, NOT calling you anti-semitic by any stretch. but that tweet is toeing the line.

Oh ya, little old me toeing the line of anti-semitism. Awesome post bro. And sure you are. But that's ok, my Jewish friends in the real world can speak for me.

dancinacrossthewater

I'm not man. I'm really not. You can't hear me.

I backed you in the other thread that guy just started. Any blanket statements... "Jews do this, Muslims do this" are bad news and help nobody.

Let me repeat. I am 100% not accusing you of anti-semitism. The tweet you posted has a graphic that's anti-Semitic. Huge difference.

badbrains

dancinacrossthewater said:

I'm not man. I'm really not. You can't hear me.

I backed you in the other thread that guy just started. Any blanket statements... "Jews do this, Muslims do this" are bad news and help nobody.

Let me repeat. I am 100% not accusing you of anti-semitism. The tweet you posted has a graphic that's anti-Semitic. Huge difference.

Maybe you think that. If it is, then why are the stars on the dollar in the shape of the Star of David? The US didn't think that was anti-Semitic, so why do you? I didn't post that pic to be anti-Semitic. I read the post and thought it was info people should know.

Byrnzie

dancinacrossthewater said:

I guess ultimately what you guys are saying is that Israel, with US backing, is so repressive that the only way Palestine will ever become a reality is through constant violent resistance.

So you've read nothing that I've posted then?

Violent resistance is one thing - the Palestinians have the right under international law to resist occupation. They've also tried peace and negotiations, but that hasn't worked either, as it's difficult to negotiate when the mediator is the U.S, which has been rubber stamping Israel's crimes for the past 47 years.
The only way forward now is for for mass boycotts, sanctions, and divestment, and for an international chorus of condemnation like that which helped overthrow the Apartheid regime in South Africa.

dancinacrossthewater said:

I see the way forward as through negotiation like what was occurring in Oslo in the early 90s.

Really? So you see the way forward as being a tripling of illegal settlements and a further cementing of the occupation?

dancinacrossthewater

I don't think you posted it to be anti-Semitic, and respect your right and desire to share that info.

I don't think the stars on the US dollar bill have anything to do with the Star of David.

My point is that that graphic encourages people to associate Jews with money. That's a dangerous stereotype that has caused a lot of pain and hurt for a long time. Everybody on this board is better than that. It's a cheap shot, just like the godfather's subject heading was a cheap shot. We can do better than that, even if we violently disagree with each other.

dancinacrossthewater

Byrnzie said:

dancinacrossthewater said:

I guess ultimately what you guys are saying is that Israel, with US backing, is so repressive that the only way Palestine will ever become a reality is through constant violent resistance.

So you've read nothing that I've posted then?

Violent resistance is one thing - the Palestinians have the right under international law to resist occupation. They've also tried peace and negotiations, but that hasn't worked either, as it's difficult to negotiate when the mediator is the U.S, which has been rubber stamping Israel's crimes for the past 47 years.
The only way forward now is for for mass boycotts, sanctions, and divestment, and for an international chorus of condemnation like that which helped overthrow the Apartheid regime in South Africa.

dancinacrossthewater said:

I see the way forward as through negotiation like what was occurring in Oslo in the early 90s.

Really? So you see the way forward as being a tripling of illegal settlements and a further cementing of the occupation?

Alright we're getting somewhere again. Let me clarify: as I've said elsewhere, the settlements - all of them - are the first thing that have to go. I cited Oslo because I believe Rabin was trying to move Israel in that direction at that time before he was picked off by a total psycho.

badbrains

Jordan trying to get involved:

https://twitter.com/gazaglobal/status/502452901709889536

Byrnzie

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/09/stephen-hawking-palestinian-boycott-israel-history

Stephen Hawking's support for the boycott of Israel is a turning point

Boycotting Israel as a stance for justice is going mainstream – Israelis can no longer pretend theirs is in an enlightened country

Ali Abunimah
The Guardian, Thursday 9 May 2013

A standard objection to the Palestinian campaign for the boycott of Israel is that it would cut off "dialogue" and hurt the chances of peace. We've heard this again in the wake of Professor Stephen Hawking's laudable decision to withdraw from Israel's Presidential Conference in response to requests from Palestinian academics – but it would be hard to think of a more unconvincing position as far as Palestinians are concerned.

One of the most deceptive aspects of the so-called peace process is the pretence that Palestinians and Israelis are two equal sides, equally at fault, equally responsible – thus erasing from view the brutal reality that Palestinians are an occupied, colonised people, dispossessed at the hands of one of the most powerful militaries on earth.

For more than two decades, under the cover of this fiction, Palestinians have engaged in internationally-sponsored "peace talks" and other forms of dialogue, only to watch as Israel has continued to occupy, steal and settle their land, and to kill and maim thousands of people with impunity.

While there are a handful of courageous dissenting Israeli voices, major Israeli institutions, especially the universities, have been complicit in this oppression by, for example, engaging in research and training partnerships with the Israeli army. Israel's government has actively engaged academics, artists and other cultural figures in international "Brand Israel" campaigns to prettify the country's image and distract attention from the oppression of Palestinians.

The vast majority of Palestinians, meanwhile, have been disenfranchised by the official peace process as their fate has been placed in the hands of venal and comprised envoys such as Tony Blair, and US and EU governments that only seem to find the courage to implement international law and protect human rights when it comes to the transgressions of African or Arab states.

When it comes to Israel's abuses, governments around the world have offered nothing but lip service; while dozens of countries face US, EU or UN sanctions for far lesser transgressions, it has taken years for EU governments to even discuss timid steps such as labelling goods from illegal Israeli settlements, let alone actually banning them. Yet the peace process train trundles on – now with a new conductor in the form of John Kerry, the US secretary of state – but with no greater prospects of ever reaching its destination. So, enough talk already.

The Palestinian-led Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement (BDS) aims to change this dynamic. It puts the initiative back in the hands of Palestinians. The goal is to build pressure on Israel to respect the rights of all Palestinians by ending its occupation and blockade of the West Bank and Gaza Strip; respecting the rights of Palestinian refugees who are currently excluded from returning to their homes just because they are not Jews; and abolishing all forms of discrimination against Palestinian citizens of Israel.

These demands are in line with universal human rights principles and would be unremarkable and uncontroversial in any other context, which is precisely why support for them is growing.

BDS builds on a long tradition of popular resistance around the world: from within Palestine itself to the Montgomery bus boycott in Alabama to the struggle against apartheid in South Africa. Historically, boycotts work.

During the 1980s opponents of sanctions against apartheid South Africa – including, notoriously, the late Margaret Thatcher – argued instead for "constructive engagement". They were on the wrong side of history. Today, Palestinians are lectured to drop BDS and return to empty talks that are the present-day equivalent of constructive engagement.

But there can be no going back to the days when Palestinians were silenced and only the strong were given a voice. There can be no going back to endless "dialogue" and fuzzy and toothless talk about "peace" that provides a cover for Israel to entrench its colonisation.

When we look back in a few years, Hawking's decision to respect BDS may be seen as a turning point – the moment when boycotting Israel as a stance for justice went mainstream.

What is clear today is that his action has forced Israelis – and the rest of the world – to understand that the status quo has a price. Israel cannot continue to pretend that it is a country of culture, technology and enlightenment while millions of Palestinians live invisibly under the brutal rule of bullets, bulldozers and armed settlers.

benjs

dancinacrossthewater said:

Actually, that star of david/dollar bill thing is the first thing I've seen on this board that actually approaches anti-semitism. The image of the rich or usurious jew goes back hundreds of years...think shylock from merchant of venice, etc.

badbrains, NOT calling you anti-semitic by any stretch. but that tweet is toeing the line.

Israel opted to put a star of David on their flag, with the assumption that Jews around the world would be proud to call it their home. Any allusions to anti-Jewish sentiment is a direct byproduct of that, and furthers the notion that Israel itself is partially responsible for blurring the lines between anti-Jewish, anti-Israeli, anti-Zionist, anti-Semitic, pro-Palestinian, pro-Hamas sentiment, in an effort to justify using the racism card to silence debate. Which I find absolutely deplorable.

I have personally lost friends over the propagation of this false equivalence: Jews who buy into the rhetoric that the previously mentioned terms are one and the same, are the ones who make all points of sharing articles which don't tell the story (or share facts which conveniently omit context), and then when you question them, they say that it's wrong to engage in discussion with irrational supporters of terrorism.

This is the reason I get so heated about the term 'anti-Semitism': first, when used in debate or any form of media, it is a term that ends discussions and education, and therefore promotes ignorance. The fallacies are then extended to include the opposite: if you're not anti-Jewish, anti-Israeli, anti-Zionist, anti-Semitic, pro-Palestinian, or pro-Hamas - in other words, if you are one of either Jewish, pro-Israeli, pro-Zionism, pro-Semitic (whatever that would mean), anti-Palestinian, or anti-Hamas - you must be, in the eyes of some, all of those. This is not true, and it is an offensive way of attempting to speak on the behalf of a larger people, when they did not give you their consent to speak for them.

While in democratic government, when you vote, you surrender your voice to one or some people for a definite length of time. Religion doesn't contain democracy: I did not opt in to Judaism (I was born to a man and a woman, who brought this weirdo in when I was eight days old and snipped the end of my dick. I objected with screams and cries, but they proceeded regardless). I certainly didn't opt into Zionism. So I reject the notion that the voice of Israel represents mine because I'm Jewish (as all Jews should, regardless of whether they call themselves Zionists or not), and I truly do wish this could return to the secular issue that it appears to be: of illegitimate land claims attained year after year, stripped rights, the illegitimacy of collective punishment, the legitimacy of resistance based on occupied existence, and the right to seek self-determination.

PS, Pick your fallacy. I spotted several based on the scenario I've presented. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/pdf/FallaciesPoster16x24.pdf

dancinacrossthewater

But it's not totally a secular issue...it never has been. You can't totally disassociate Israel and Jews no more than they should totally overlap

dancinacrossthewater

But I've tried really hard to be clear here that I don't think people who I'm arguing with here are anti-Semitic. Benjs, I hear and respect your issue with the word anti-semitism, but i don't agree with your argument to remove the term from use.

benjs

dancinacrossthewater said:

But it's not totally a secular issue...it never has been. You can't totally disassociate Israel and Jews no more than they should totally overlap

It may not be totally a secular issue, but the things being fought for by Palestinians (and responded to by Israelis) are entirely secular: they are in favour of the same freedoms being afforded to the rest of the citizens within the political boundaries of modern Israel. It is a resistance not in favour of religious domination, rather human equality.

dancinacrossthewater said:

But I've tried really hard to be clear here that I don't think people who I'm arguing with here are anti-Semitic. Benjs, I hear and respect your issue with the word anti-semitism, but i don't agree with your argument to remove the term from use.

No worries - you've been fair, and I know you're not pointing accusations at the speakers here!

As for removing the term - all I'm saying is that it has become a term associated with fallacious propaganda, and if something is anti-Jewish - just call it anti-Jewish, not anti-Semitic. That's all. I would say the same thing about anti-Islamic sentiment, when technically, anti-Semitic would include Islamic nations within its umbrella.

dancinacrossthewater

benjs said:

dancinacrossthewater said:

But it's not totally a secular issue...it never has been. You can't totally disassociate Israel and Jews no more than they should totally overlap

It may not be totally a secular issue, but the things being fought for by Palestinians (and responded to by Israelis) are entirely secular: they are in favour of the same freedoms being afforded to the rest of the citizens within the political boundaries of modern Israel. It is a resistance not in favour of religious domination, rather human equality.

dancinacrossthewater said:

But I've tried really hard to be clear here that I don't think people who I'm arguing with here are anti-Semitic. Benjs, I hear and respect your issue with the word anti-semitism, but i don't agree with your argument to remove the term from use.

No worries - you've been fair, and I know you're not pointing accusations at the speakers here!

As for removing the term - all I'm saying is that it has become a term associated with fallacious propaganda, and if something is anti-Jewish - just call it anti-Jewish, not anti-Semitic. That's all. I would say the same thing about anti-Islamic sentiment, when technically, anti-Semitic would include Islamic nations within its umbrella.

ok i hear this.

dancinacrossthewater

double post