5 Broken Cameras - Palestinian Documentary

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  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi said:

    I'm sorry that my language isn't extreme enough to suit you. And yes, big names, talking about events in 1948, not today. Kind of disingenuous, is it not, to claim ethnic cleansing in the present and then present "proof" that relates to events from 60+ years ago? Plus, you know, selective quotes presented entirely without context are kind of iffy evidence in the first place, but let's not even go there.

    Ethnic cleansing occurred in 1948. It's been occurring ever since, slowly but surely. Look at the dates from the handful of examples I posted above: 2009, 2013.

    Do you want me to produce more examples?
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited July 2014
    http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/18762
    Israel issues eviction orders to 40 Palestinian families in E. Jerusalem
    Monday, February 24, 2014

    Israeli occupation forces and civil administration officers issued demolition and eviction orders to 40 Palestinian families in East Jerusalem late Sunday, the Palestinian news agency Ma’an reported.

    Popular committee spokesman Hani Halabiya told Ma'an that civil administration officers delivered the orders to families in Jabal al-Baba neighborhood in al-Ezariya.

    Families in Jabal al-Baba were ordered to leave their homes by March 3.

    Around 300 Palestinian Bedouins from Jahalin live in 22 homes made of steel, wood and tin boards, as well as tents, Halabiya said to Ma’an.

    Israel is trying to displace the community of Jabal al-Baba to expand the nearby illegal settlement of Maale Adumim that cuts through the occupied West Bank.

    Last week, Israeli forces bulldozed five homes belonging to the Bedouin al-Jahalin community in al-Eizariya, leaving 55 people homeless.

    Israeli occupation forces displaced groups of the community in east Jerusalem in the 1990s in order to make way for the Maale Adumim colony.

    http://electronicintifada.net/content/report-israels-separation-policy-and-forced-eviction-palestinians-hebron/3230
    Israel’s Separation Policy and Forced Eviction of Palestinians from Hebron
    B'Tselem
    14 May 2007


    Over the years, Israel established a number of settlement points in and around the Old City of Hebron, which had traditionally served as the commercial center for the entire southern West Bank . Israeli law-enforcement authorities and security forces have made the entire Palestinian population pay the price for protecting Israeli settlement in the city. To this end, the authorities impose a regime intentionally and openly based on the “separation principle”, as a result of which Israel created legal and physical segregation between the Israeli settlers and the Palestinian majority.

    This policy led to the economic collapse of the center of Hebron and drove many Palestinians out of the area. The findings of a survey conducted in preparation of this report show that at least 1,014 Palestinian housing units in the center of Hebron have been vacated by their occupants. This number represents 41.9 percent of the housing units in the relevant area. Sixty-five percent (659) of the empty apartments became vacant during the course of the second intifada. Regarding Palestinian commercial establishments, 1,829 are no longer open for business. This number represents 76.6 percent of all the commercial establishments in the surveyed area. Of the closed businesses, 62.4 percent (1,141) were closed during the second intifada. At least 440 of them closed pursuant to military orders.

    The main elements of Israel ‘s separation policy are the severe and extensive restrictions on Palestinian movement and the authorities’ systematic failure to enforce law and order on violent settlers attacking Palestinians. The city’s Palestinian residents also suffer as a direct result of the actions of Israel ‘s security forces.
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    edited July 2014
    yosi said:

    I'm sorry that my language isn't extreme enough to suit you. And yes, big names, talking about events in 1948, not today. Kind of disingenuous, is it not, to claim ethnic cleansing in the present and then present "proof" that relates to events from 60+ years ago? Plus, you know, selective quotes presented entirely without context are kind of iffy evidence in the first place, but let's not even go there.

    Im sorry yosi, u can apologize and make all the excuses u want for Israel, this is ethnic cleansing and land grab. Any way u look at it. I'm an outsider looking in and see it clear as day. And yes yosi, it's clear as day.

    How can u argue with a stat like the one byrnzie posted about 1 Palestinian killed every 3 days by Israel? How can u? U can't. The destruction and murder is so one sided. And let's not forget the occupation. Your basically telling the Palestinians when they can eat,shit, and sleep. Some life you guys are offering them. I remember reading couple years ago Israel would t allow crayons into gaza, crayons! Are u fucking kidding me? Why crayons? What purpose does that serve? How does stopping crayons from coming into gaza stop terrorism? It doesn't, and you know damn well it doesn't. Let's keep all forms of happiness from the children of Palestine. What a fucken joke. And you defend these practices? Or you'll come out speaking against it but then you'll throw in a "but" to justify it. I'm not gonna get into a pissing match with you yosi, I dnt have lawyer lingo or fancy words. I do know what's right and wrong and what your Israel is doing to the Palestinians is 100% wrong, your god, my god, gF's god will all tell u that, if he/she exists.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Here's another example of ethnic cleansing 'nonsense':

    http://www.thenation.com/article/173884/israels-land-grab-east-jerusalem#
    Israel's Land Grab in East Jerusalem
    April 17, 2013


    “It’s hard living here,” Saleh Diab, a Palestinian resident, tells me. Diab lives in the heart of Sheikh Jarrah, just down the street from the ruins of the tomb. Across the street from his home, a Palestinian home is now decorated with Israeli flags, signifying its takeover by settlers, who now enjoy the lemon tree the Palestinian family before them was forced to leave behind. Next door to Diab, the front half of another house is occupied by settlers; the back half remains Palestinian. On the hill behind us, a watchtower manned by Israeli security forces surveys the neighborhood, protecting the settler minority from any violence that may occur—but doing little for the Palestinians.

    “They’re trying to kick us out,” Diab tells me, pointing to the Jewish settlements that surround his home.

    Through the building of settlements and other measures, the Jerusalem municipality has radically changed the demographic makeup of East Jerusalem from being nearly 100 percent Palestinian in 1967, when the occupation began, to only a slight, 58 percent Palestinian majority today...

    ...On the other side of the highly coveted “Holy Basin,” the traditionally Arab neighborhoods that cradle the Old City, lies Silwan, another battleground between Palestinian residents and Jewish settlers. Like Sheikh Jarrah, Silwan is the site of frequent settler violence against Palestinians.

    “I used to be a photographer, running around taking pictures of the demonstrations in Silwan,” Ahmad Qara’een, a resident, tells me. However, in 2009, he was shot in both legs by a settler. Now he moves slowly, with two crutches and a prosthetic leg. Even though the settler was arrested after the assault—an attempted murder, in Qara’een’s eyes—he was held for only two hours and then released without charge.

    The Israeli government has a $19.2 million budget (70 million shekels) for settler security in East Jerusalem alone. If Palestinians engage settlers in conversation, they risk arrest, but settlers—who freely walk the street with machine guns— almost always avoid prosecution if they open fire on Palestinians. This extreme legal impunity has been standard since the occupation began. “In Silwan, we call the settlers the militia,” Qara’een tells me.

    ...More recently, homes have been slated for demolition to make way for a multi-story Jewish cultural center that will be the last stop on the City of David tour. The plan is for the tour to start at the Visitors Center, continue through the tunnels drilled under Palestinian homes and end at the new Kedem Center—all the while oblivious to the story of the Palestinians just above them.

    There are only 400 Jewish settlers now living in Silwan—compared to 30,000 Palestinians—but Elad has shaped the neighborhood to serve this tiny minority. While there are multiple educational options for settlers, there is only one Palestinian high school. Palestinian parents who can afford to send their kids away to private schools, but many are unable to attend any kind of school. According to Qara’een, when Palestinians throw stones at soldiers and settlers—a frequent occurrence in Silwan—anyone present, regardless of age or involvement, is liable to be arrested and interrogated, even children. Meanwhile, Qara’een says he frequently sees Israeli police encourage settler children to throw stones at Palestinians.
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,167
    I'm not going to try to argue with you about something like the crayons. I agree, the occupation, and in the case of Gaza, the conflict, is brutal and Israel often acts in indefensible ways. Which is one of the primary reasons why it is so important for me that the conflict and the occupation end. I've never argued otherwise. I have no interest in defending Israel against legitimate criticism of its actions.
    Badbrains, I'm curious. Have you ever been to Israel/Palestine? Have you ever been to East Jerusalem? East Jerusalem is predominantly Palestinian. It is the only part of the West Bank that Israel has officially annexed to itself. When it did so it gave the Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem permanent resident status and gave them the option, which continues today, to become Israeli citizens. The vast majority of these residents have declined to claim citizenship for political reasons, which is their legitimate choice to make. But I find it incongruous to claim that Israel is trying to ethnically cleanse East Jerusalem of Palestinians when it continues to this day to hold open an offer of citizenship to them.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Interesting:

    http://articles.latimes.com/2014/jan/14/opinion/la-oe-myers-israel-citizenship-arabs-20140114
    'East Jerusalem Palestinians may apply for Israeli citizenship (with no guarantee of success), but the number who have had their permanent residency revoked by the Israeli government since 1967 is as large as the number who have been successful in attaining citizenship. For this reason, Palestinians in East Jerusalem live in constant fear of losing the right to live in their homes.

    ...The situation of the Bedouin may be the most poignant, especially since they have lived in Israel's Negev since long before the state was founded. They have Israeli citizenship, but their nomadic way of life has not blended easily with the norms of a modern state. Although the ancestral lands to which they claim ownership amount to less than 5% of the Negev, many in Israel oppose granting the Bedouin rights to these lands, on which they have dwelt for centuries. Alternatively, they seek to settle them into a few pre-designed townships. Their citizenship is unquestionably second class, especially when one compares their claims to land with those of Jewish settlers, who have established illegal outposts in the West Bank that frequently gain official sanction after the fact.'
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited July 2014
    Are Palestinians in East Jerusalem being driven from their homes in large numbers and replaced by illegal Israeli settlers? Yes. It's happening in East Jerusalem, and it's happening in the West Bank too.

    It's known as ethnic cleansing, as the United Nations special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories, and others, have pointed out.

    'More than 11,000 Palestinians had lost their right to live in Jerusalem since 1996 due to Israel imposing residency laws favouring Jews and revoking Palestinian residence permits.'
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • Drowned Out
    Drowned Out Posts: 6,056
    This film is heartbreaking...I had seen footage of Bassem Abu-Rahmeh (Phil) 's death prior to the release of the documentary, but didn't put 2+2 together when watching, and didn't expect him to be murdered on camera....
    Budrus: It Takes a Village to Unite the Most Divided People on Earth is another good doc from around the same period.
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255

    This film is heartbreaking...I had seen footage of Bassem Abu-Rahmeh (Phil) 's death prior to the release of the documentary, but didn't put 2+2 together when watching, and didn't expect him to be murdered on camera....
    Budrus: It Takes a Village to Unite the Most Divided People on Earth is another good doc from around the same period.

    And NOTHING, ZERO, SHIT was done about it. Amazing the shit they get away with. Makes you wonder
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited July 2014

    This film is heartbreaking...I had seen footage of Bassem Abu-Rahmeh (Phil) 's death prior to the release of the documentary, but didn't put 2+2 together when watching, and didn't expect him to be murdered on camera....

    It is kind of amazing that in this day and age people can get away with the cold-blooded murder of unarmed protestors, even when that murder is caught on camera. It's almost guaranteed that the soldier who shot that fella at the end would have suffered no reprisals, and in fact, as in the case of the IDF Captain who emptied his entire clip into the body of a 13 year old schoolgirl http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2, he'll probably even get promoted.

    Not guilty. The Israeli captain who emptied his rifle into a Palestinian schoolgirl
    'The military court cleared the soldier of illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and perverting the course of justice by asking soldiers under his command to alter their accounts of the incident.

    ...A recording of radio exchanges between Capt R and his troops obtained by Israeli television revealed that from the beginning soldiers identified Iman as a child.

    In the recording, a soldier in a watchtower radioed a colleague in the army post's operations room and describes Iman as "a little girl" who was "scared to death". After soldiers first opened fire, she dropped her schoolbag which was then hit by several bullets establishing that it did not contain explosive. At that point she was no longer carrying the bag and, the tape revealed, was heading away from the army post when she was shot.

    ...Palestinian witnesses said they saw the captain shoot Iman twice in the head, walk away, turn back and fire a stream of bullets into her body.'


    http://www.imemc.org/article/16795
    Killer of 13-year old girl receives compensation, promotion in Israeli Army
    Friday March 24, 2006


    'The killer of 13-year old Iman Al Hams, a girl who was cowering behind a stone and positively identified as a child before she was shot, and then was shot multiple times to 'confirm the kill', according to the Israeli military transcript of the incident, has received 80,000 NIS (about $15,000) compensation for the 'trouble' of having gone to court.

    ...The 13-year-old school girl was on her way to school when she was killed on October 5, 2004. Although she is just one of 850 children killed by the Israeli army since the start of the current stage of conflict in 2000, her death became one of the few that was widely publicized, due to the leak of a tape of the incident.

    ...The soldier [...] recently received a promotion to the rank of major.

    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited July 2014
    According to the Halacha [the collective body of Jewish religious laws derived from the Written and Oral Torah], “the killing by a Jew of a non-Jew under any circumstances is not regarded as murder. It may be prohibited for other reasons, especially when it causes danger for Jews.” When asked if he was sorry about the Arabs [murdered by Baruch Goldstein in 1994], militant Rabbi Moshe Levenger declared: “I am sorry not only about dead Arabs but about dead flies.”

    American-Israeli Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburgh: "If every simple cell in a Jewish body entails divinity, is a part of God, then every strand of DNA is part of God. Therefore, something is special about Jewish DNA…If a Jew needs a liver, can you take the liver of an innocent non-Jew passing by to save him? The Torah would probably permit that. Jewish life has an infinite value."

    Rabbi Kook the Elder: “The difference between a Jewish soul and souls of non-Jews—all of them in all different levels—is greater and deeper than the difference between a human soul and the souls of cattle.”
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,167
    Having grown up in a thoroughly observant household I can tell you that the vast majority of observant Jews not only do not subscribe to these sentiments but would tell you that they are actually contrary to what the Halacha dictates. These are, it goes without saying, repulsive sentiments. Equally repulsive, and a prime example of what I've been talking about, is that you seem to be attributing the views of these particular individuals to all observant Jews.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi said:

    Having grown up in a thoroughly observant household I can tell you that the vast majority of observant Jews not only do not subscribe to these sentiments but would tell you that they are actually contrary to what the Halacha dictates. These are, it goes without saying, repulsive sentiments. Equally repulsive, and a prime example of what I've been talking about, is that you seem to be attributing the views of these particular individuals to all observant Jews.

    Though as you're fully aware, these extremist sentiments are exactly those trumpeted by the settlers, and the settlers are protected, encouraged, and funded by the state.

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited July 2014
    Byrnzie said:

    This film is heartbreaking...I had seen footage of Bassem Abu-Rahmeh (Phil) 's death prior to the release of the documentary, but didn't put 2+2 together when watching, and didn't expect him to be murdered on camera....

    It is kind of amazing that in this day and age people can get away with the cold-blooded murder of unarmed protestors, even when that murder is caught on camera. It's almost guaranteed that the soldier who shot that fella at the end would have suffered no reprisals, and in fact, as in the case of the IDF Captain who emptied his entire clip into the body of a 13 year old schoolgirl http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2, he'll probably even get promoted.

    Not guilty. The Israeli captain who emptied his rifle into a Palestinian schoolgirl
    'The military court cleared the soldier of illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and perverting the course of justice by asking soldiers under his command to alter their accounts of the incident.

    ...A recording of radio exchanges between Capt R and his troops obtained by Israeli television revealed that from the beginning soldiers identified Iman as a child.

    In the recording, a soldier in a watchtower radioed a colleague in the army post's operations room and describes Iman as "a little girl" who was "scared to death". After soldiers first opened fire, she dropped her schoolbag which was then hit by several bullets establishing that it did not contain explosive. At that point she was no longer carrying the bag and, the tape revealed, was heading away from the army post when she was shot.

    ...Palestinian witnesses said they saw the captain shoot Iman twice in the head, walk away, turn back and fire a stream of bullets into her body.'


    http://www.imemc.org/article/16795
    Killer of 13-year old girl receives compensation, promotion in Israeli Army
    Friday March 24, 2006


    'The killer of 13-year old Iman Al Hams, a girl who was cowering behind a stone and positively identified as a child before she was shot, and then was shot multiple times to 'confirm the kill', according to the Israeli military transcript of the incident, has received 80,000 NIS (about $15,000) compensation for the 'trouble' of having gone to court.

    ...The 13-year-old school girl was on her way to school when she was killed on October 5, 2004. Although she is just one of 850 children killed by the Israeli army since the start of the current stage of conflict in 2000, her death became one of the few that was widely publicized, due to the leak of a tape of the incident.

    ...The soldier [...] recently received a promotion to the rank of major.

    Yosi, what are your opinions on this? Do you think it's right that the IDF are held unaccountable in the large majority of such cases? (approx 95% of cases). And if not, can you enlighten me as to what people like yourself, who profess to be 'moderates', are doing about it?

  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,167
    Byrnzie said:

    yosi said:

    Having grown up in a thoroughly observant household I can tell you that the vast majority of observant Jews not only do not subscribe to these sentiments but would tell you that they are actually contrary to what the Halacha dictates. These are, it goes without saying, repulsive sentiments. Equally repulsive, and a prime example of what I've been talking about, is that you seem to be attributing the views of these particular individuals to all observant Jews.

    Though as you're fully aware, these extremist sentiments are exactly those trumpeted by the settlers, and the settlers are protected, encouraged, and funded by the state.

    Which settlers? They're not a monolithic group. The people that believe these things are a distinct but vocal minority. The vast majority live in the settlements for the same reason people in America live in the suburbs; better housing for less money. Again, your penchant for lumping Jews together rears its head.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,167
    Byrnzie said:

    Byrnzie said:

    This film is heartbreaking...I had seen footage of Bassem Abu-Rahmeh (Phil) 's death prior to the release of the documentary, but didn't put 2+2 together when watching, and didn't expect him to be murdered on camera....

    It is kind of amazing that in this day and age people can get away with the cold-blooded murder of unarmed protestors, even when that murder is caught on camera. It's almost guaranteed that the soldier who shot that fella at the end would have suffered no reprisals, and in fact, as in the case of the IDF Captain who emptied his entire clip into the body of a 13 year old schoolgirl http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2, he'll probably even get promoted.

    Not guilty. The Israeli captain who emptied his rifle into a Palestinian schoolgirl
    'The military court cleared the soldier of illegal use of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer and perverting the course of justice by asking soldiers under his command to alter their accounts of the incident.

    ...A recording of radio exchanges between Capt R and his troops obtained by Israeli television revealed that from the beginning soldiers identified Iman as a child.

    In the recording, a soldier in a watchtower radioed a colleague in the army post's operations room and describes Iman as "a little girl" who was "scared to death". After soldiers first opened fire, she dropped her schoolbag which was then hit by several bullets establishing that it did not contain explosive. At that point she was no longer carrying the bag and, the tape revealed, was heading away from the army post when she was shot.

    ...Palestinian witnesses said they saw the captain shoot Iman twice in the head, walk away, turn back and fire a stream of bullets into her body.'


    http://www.imemc.org/article/16795
    Killer of 13-year old girl receives compensation, promotion in Israeli Army
    Friday March 24, 2006


    'The killer of 13-year old Iman Al Hams, a girl who was cowering behind a stone and positively identified as a child before she was shot, and then was shot multiple times to 'confirm the kill', according to the Israeli military transcript of the incident, has received 80,000 NIS (about $15,000) compensation for the 'trouble' of having gone to court.

    ...The 13-year-old school girl was on her way to school when she was killed on October 5, 2004. Although she is just one of 850 children killed by the Israeli army since the start of the current stage of conflict in 2000, her death became one of the few that was widely publicized, due to the leak of a tape of the incident.

    ...The soldier [...] recently received a promotion to the rank of major.

    Yosi, what are your opinions on this? Do you think it's right that the IDF are held unaccountable in the large majority of such cases? (approx 95% of cases). And if not, can you enlighten me as to what people like yourself, who profess to be 'moderates', are doing about it?

    What do you think my opinion is? I'm not going to dignify that with a response. As for what I'm doing about it; nothing, because I'm not in a position to do anything at the moment other than speak to other people in my community and try to change minds. Wish I could do more.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited July 2014
    yosi said:

    Which settlers? They're not a monolithic group. The people that believe these things are a distinct but vocal minority. The vast majority live in the settlements for the same reason people in America live in the suburbs; better housing for less money.

    There you go again, attempting to muddy the waters. There are good illegal settlers, and bad illegal settlers, right? There's not one Zionism, there are many Zionisms, right?

    Again, are you hoping that some morons will read what you type and be convinced?

    As for your claim that the vast majority live in the settlements for financial reasons, this is pure guff. The vast majority of settlers move there for ideological reasons.
    yosi said:

    Again, your penchant for lumping Jews together rears its head.

    I didn't lump Jews together. We're talking about the settlers. But I know you feel the need to play your filthy anti-Semitism card at every available opportunity, because it's all you have.
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    yosi said:

    Again, your penchant for lumping Jews together rears its head.

    I didn't lump all Jews together, I was talking about the settlers, as you know full well. But you hope that some morons are reading what you post and will come to the conclusion that I'm a racist anti-Semite who hates Jews.
    Either way, let's assume that you're right, and that you're not simply trying to deflect attention from Israel's oppression and terrorizing of the Palestinians.

    So what if I did 'lump all Jews together?...

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2002/06/04/what-is-antisemitism/
    What Is Antisemitism?
    by Michael Neumann

    '..Do we want to say it is antisemitic to accuse, not just the Israelis, but Jews generally of complicity in these crimes against humanity? Again, maybe not, because there is a quite reasonable case for such assertions. Compare them, for example, to the claim that Germans generally were complicit in such crimes. This never meant that every last German, man, woman, idiot and child, were guilty. It meant that most Germans were. Their guilt, of course, did not consist in shoving naked prisoners into gas chambers. It consisted in support for the people who planned such acts, or–as many overwrought, moralistic Jewish texts will tell you–for denying the horror unfolding around them, for failing to speak out and resist, for passive consent. Note that the extreme danger of any kind of active resistance is not supposed to be an excuse here.

    Well, virtually no Jew is in any kind of danger from speaking out. And speaking out is the only sort of resistance required. If many Jews spoke out, it would have an enormous effect. But the overwhelming majority of Jews do not, and in the vast majority of cases, this is because they support Israel. Now perhaps the whole notion of collective responsibility should be discarded; perhaps some clever person will convince us that we have to do this. But at present, the case for Jewish complicity seems much stronger than the case for German complicity. So if it is not racist, and reasonable, to say that the Germans were complicit in crimes against humanity, then it is not racist, and reasonable, to say the same of the Jews. And should the notion of collective responsibility be discarded, it would still be reasonable to say that many, perhaps most adult Jewish individuals support a state that commits war crimes, because that’s just true. So if saying these things is antisemitic, than it can be reasonable to be antisemitic.'


  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,167
    Byrnzie said:

    yosi said:

    Which settlers? They're not a monolithic group. The people that believe these things are a distinct but vocal minority. The vast majority live in the settlements for the same reason people in America live in the suburbs; better housing for less money.

    There you go again, attempting to muddy the waters. There are good illegal settlers, and bad illegal settlers, right? There's not one Zionism, there are many Zionisms, right?

    Again, are you hoping that some morons will read what you type and be convinced?

    As for your claim that the vast majority live in the settlements for financial reasons, this is pure guff. The vast majority of settlers move there for ideological reasons.
    yosi said:

    Again, your penchant for lumping Jews together rears its head.

    I didn't lump Jews together. We're talking about the settlers. But I know you feel the need to play your filthy anti-Semitism card at every available opportunity, because it's all you have.
    Your inability to grasp nuance is really shocking. Saying that most settlers live in the settlements for financial reasons isn't the same as saying that they or any of the settlements are good. It is simply stating the truth. And it is the truth. The fact that you claim otherwise just shows how little you really understand this issue. It's so much easier to believe that the settlers are all raving ideologues out to oppress the Palestinians. So you believe it whether it's true or not. Seriously, you really don't know the first thing about Israel. Sure, you can cut and paste articles about Israeli atrocities with the best of them, but when it comes right down to it you don't seem to have allowed yourself to be exposed to any information about the country that doesn't confirm your hatred.

    I really don't know why I keep responding to you.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane

  • yosi
    yosi NYC Posts: 3,167
    Byrnzie said:

    yosi said:

    Again, your penchant for lumping Jews together rears its head.

    I didn't lump all Jews together, I was talking about the settlers, as you know full well. But you hope that some morons are reading what you post and will come to the conclusion that I'm a racist anti-Semite who hates Jews.
    Either way, let's assume that you're right, and that you're not simply trying to deflect attention from Israel's oppression and terrorizing of the Palestinians.

    So what if I did 'lump all Jews together?...

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2002/06/04/what-is-antisemitism/
    What Is Antisemitism?
    by Michael Neumann

    '..Do we want to say it is antisemitic to accuse, not just the Israelis, but Jews generally of complicity in these crimes against humanity? Again, maybe not, because there is a quite reasonable case for such assertions. Compare them, for example, to the claim that Germans generally were complicit in such crimes. This never meant that every last German, man, woman, idiot and child, were guilty. It meant that most Germans were. Their guilt, of course, did not consist in shoving naked prisoners into gas chambers. It consisted in support for the people who planned such acts, or–as many overwrought, moralistic Jewish texts will tell you–for denying the horror unfolding around them, for failing to speak out and resist, for passive consent. Note that the extreme danger of any kind of active resistance is not supposed to be an excuse here.

    Well, virtually no Jew is in any kind of danger from speaking out. And speaking out is the only sort of resistance required. If many Jews spoke out, it would have an enormous effect. But the overwhelming majority of Jews do not, and in the vast majority of cases, this is because they support Israel. Now perhaps the whole notion of collective responsibility should be discarded; perhaps some clever person will convince us that we have to do this. But at present, the case for Jewish complicity seems much stronger than the case for German complicity. So if it is not racist, and reasonable, to say that the Germans were complicit in crimes against humanity, then it is not racist, and reasonable, to say the same of the Jews. And should the notion of collective responsibility be discarded, it would still be reasonable to say that many, perhaps most adult Jewish individuals support a state that commits war crimes, because that’s just true. So if saying these things is antisemitic, than it can be reasonable to be antisemitic.'


    If you did lump all Jews together, as your repeated approving quotation from MN suggests, you would be confirming that you are an antisemite. Look back at the EU definition. It's right there, plain as day. So yeah, sorry to burst your bubble, but you're kind of a bigot, even if you don't realize it yourself.
    you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane