5 Broken Cameras - Palestinian Documentary

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  • dancinacrossthewater
    dancinacrossthewater Posts: 800
    edited August 2014
    Byrnzie said:



    dancinacrossthewater said:

    You can't just start looking at history arbitrarily in 1982 though Byrnzie. You're picking the exact moment Israel turned from 'underdog' to 'oppressor' in most of the world's eyes.

    Please explain to me how Israel was the 'underdog' in 1967 when it attacked Egypt and Syria and destroyed the Egyptian air force whilst it was still on the ground. Thanks.

    Ok if you're questioning moral high ground when it comes to military tactics, how can you not mention that Israel was attacked on Yom Kippur in 73?! Christ.

    What bothers me so much is that I am supporting BDS against Israel to help bring about Palestinian statehood, and that's not enough for you guys. You want Israel shamed and humiliated.
    That's where in all honesty you completely lose credibility
    Post edited by dancinacrossthewater on
  • dancinacrossthewater
    dancinacrossthewater Posts: 800
    edited August 2014
    If you're interested in shaming the other side more than peace you're not gonna get anywhere.

    I say the same things to Jews who can't move beyond the holocaust.
    Post edited by dancinacrossthewater on
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    dancinacrossthewater said:

    fuck said:

    dancinacrossthewater said:

    Even if you go back just 3 years from 1982, which is your starting point, to the peace treaty of 79 with Egypt, Israel looks pretty good there (returning the Sinai peninsula).

    Of course, to take the other perspective, if Israel was able to return land then, why is it so damn hard to do now? Part of it has to do with who it's being returned to - Sadat/Egypt certainly represented a much more stable negotiating partner than Hamas does.

    Oh do they look pretty good? Do they look good when the deal involves guaranteeing gas from Egypt's Sinai peninsula being exported to Israel at the expense of the Egyptian people? Does Sadat, a man who acted as one of the Middle East's worst dictators, represent a "stable" partner? As opposed to Hamas who was actually elected by the Palestinian people?

    Typical orientalist outlook: Let these strongmen dictators who along with Israel will financially exploit "peace" because the savage Arab population can't do it themselves. Except for the fact that just like Israel itself, these dictators are concerned with only benefiting themselves. Israel gained what they needed from the Sinai (cheap gas) and was able to take out the biggest Arab force opposing its treatment of Palestinians (Egypt). The Egyptian oligarchy along with the military establishment was able to line its pockets through the deal with over $1billion of US military aid a year, along with billions upon billions of dollars worth of gas deals with Israel. Is this the peace you want?

    Meanwhile, the Israelis will never leave aside their Zionist dream of establishing a state in Palestine, with a Jewish-majority population, even if it means expelling and killing more Palestinians.

    You need to read your history, and you need to study the Middle East more deeply than superficial wikipedia searches if you seriously want to discuss this. No, I'm not trying to silence you. I'm just telling you you're wrong, and if you want to be taken seriously then you need to figure out how to be right.
    I think a lot of people on this board take me seriously and might have more trouble with someone who just flat out tries to shut someone else down.
    I'd rather be accused of "shutting someone down" than giving false information. I like the way you ignored the entire substance of my argument too. You say we only want to "shame" Israel, but all we are actually doing is explaining history and providing context. If, based on the information we supply, you then think Israel's actions have been shameful, then that's just cause it is.
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    fuck said:

    dancinacrossthewater said:

    fuck said:

    dancinacrossthewater said:

    Even if you go back just 3 years from 1982, which is your starting point, to the peace treaty of 79 with Egypt, Israel looks pretty good there (returning the Sinai peninsula).

    Of course, to take the other perspective, if Israel was able to return land then, why is it so damn hard to do now? Part of it has to do with who it's being returned to - Sadat/Egypt certainly represented a much more stable negotiating partner than Hamas does.

    Oh do they look pretty good? Do they look good when the deal involves guaranteeing gas from Egypt's Sinai peninsula being exported to Israel at the expense of the Egyptian people? Does Sadat, a man who acted as one of the Middle East's worst dictators, represent a "stable" partner? As opposed to Hamas who was actually elected by the Palestinian people?

    Typical orientalist outlook: Let these strongmen dictators who along with Israel will financially exploit "peace" because the savage Arab population can't do it themselves. Except for the fact that just like Israel itself, these dictators are concerned with only benefiting themselves. Israel gained what they needed from the Sinai (cheap gas) and was able to take out the biggest Arab force opposing its treatment of Palestinians (Egypt). The Egyptian oligarchy along with the military establishment was able to line its pockets through the deal with over $1billion of US military aid a year, along with billions upon billions of dollars worth of gas deals with Israel. Is this the peace you want?

    Meanwhile, the Israelis will never leave aside their Zionist dream of establishing a state in Palestine, with a Jewish-majority population, even if it means expelling and killing more Palestinians.

    You need to read your history, and you need to study the Middle East more deeply than superficial wikipedia searches if you seriously want to discuss this. No, I'm not trying to silence you. I'm just telling you you're wrong, and if you want to be taken seriously then you need to figure out how to be right.
    I think a lot of people on this board take me seriously and might have more trouble with someone who just flat out tries to shut someone else down.
    I'd rather be accused of "shutting someone down" than giving false information. I like the way you ignored the entire substance of my argument too. You say we only want to "shame" Israel, but all we are actually doing is explaining history and providing context. If, based on the information we supply, you then think Israel's actions have been shameful, then that's just cause it is.
    No doubt Fuck. Only thing shaming Israel is Israel itself. It's actions alone are the cause of the shame they are feeling wether they'd admit it or not.
  • dancinacrossthewater
    dancinacrossthewater Posts: 800
    Right but are you more interested in attacking Israel or actually achieving a peace?
  • benjs
    benjs Toronto, ON Posts: 9,397
    Byrnzie said:

    benjs said:

    Byrnzie - you posted that "95% of Israelis supported the most recent massacre of Palestinian civilians". Could you please link to where that's from?

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4551824,00.html

    http://www.vox.com/2014/7/31/5955077/israeli-support-for-the-gaza-war-is-basically-unanimous

    http://www.timesofisrael.com/over-90-of-jewish-israelis-say-gaza-op-justified/

    http://newslines.org/israel/95-of-israelis-support-protective-edge/

    Thanks man. Sorry, I thought you had linked to it in the past, just couldn't remember which thread it originated in.
    '05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2

    EV
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  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    dancinacrossthewater said:

    Right but are you more interested in attacking Israel or actually achieving a peace?

    I'm interested in peace, but you can't have peace without justice. And you can't have justice without holding Israel accountable for the crimes it has committed as the party that's been ethnically cleansing the Palestinians, and the occupying force.

    The arguments you are using to attack us personally (such as implying that we are only interested in "attacking" Israel for whatever insane reason you may have come up with in your hand -- could it be we just hate Jews? -- or coming up with the same tired "You never criticize Hamas!" line which I've responded to more than once already) is simply an excuse to ignore the substance of our arguments, as you've very rarely ever actually engaged with my points when I refute your false information.
  • dancinacrossthewater
    dancinacrossthewater Posts: 800
    I'm not calling you guys Jew-haters. I've never done that. I just don't support the venom you possess for Israel, and I think that kind of venom damages the prospects for peace.

    Any kind words any of you have for Israel and its people would go a long way. It just feels to me like you have trapped yourself in the position that any generous words towards Israel automatically equals a betrayal of the Palestinians, which is a false equation.
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    dancinacrossthewater said:

    I'm not calling you guys Jew-haters. I've never done that. I just don't support the venom you possess for Israel, and I think that kind of venom damages the prospects for peace.

    Any kind words any of you have for Israel and its people would go a long way. It just feels to me like you have trapped yourself in the position that any generous words towards Israel automatically equals a betrayal of the Palestinians, which is a false equation.

    2,000 Palestinians were just murdered on your television screen, a fourth of them children - and you're concerned that we aren't saying enough nice things about Israel?

    Were you saying this when the apartheid regime existed in South Africa?
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    fuck said:

    dancinacrossthewater said:

    I'm not calling you guys Jew-haters. I've never done that. I just don't support the venom you possess for Israel, and I think that kind of venom damages the prospects for peace.

    Any kind words any of you have for Israel and its people would go a long way. It just feels to me like you have trapped yourself in the position that any generous words towards Israel automatically equals a betrayal of the Palestinians, which is a false equation.

    2,000 Palestinians were just murdered on your television screen, a fourth of them children - and you're concerned that we aren't saying enough nice things about Israel?

    Were you saying this when the apartheid regime existed in South Africa?
    You don't even have to mention the 2000 Palestinians, just the 500 MURDERED children is all that's needed. Children, not adults or even Hamas fighters, but children. That's fucken terrible and shameful. Over rockets that are more firecrackers then anything. This is what our world has come to. War and misery=life
  • dancinacrossthewater
    dancinacrossthewater Posts: 800
    edited August 2014
    Kids anywhere dying is awful guys. Anywhere. South Aftica wasn't attacked six times in the first 25 years of its existence by neighbouring states.

    We're going around in circles. We all support the Avaaz petition. That's great.
    Post edited by dancinacrossthewater on
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    dancinacrossthewater said:


    Ok if you're questioning moral high ground when it comes to military tactics, how can you not mention that Israel was attacked on Yom Kippur in 73?! Christ.

    What bothers me so much is that I am supporting BDS against Israel to help bring about Palestinian statehood, and that's not enough for you guys. You want Israel shamed and humiliated.
    That's where in all honesty you completely lose credibility

    Israel wasn't attacked. The only areas that were attacked were the areas stolen by the Israeli's during the 1967 war. The Egyptians had every right to reclaim their land. Did you not read what I posted above?

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited August 2014
    dancinacrossthewater said:

    Kids anywhere dying is awful guys. Anywhere. South Aftica wasn't attacked six times in the first 25 years of its existence by neighbouring states.

    Care to list those 'six times'?

    And when you're done listing those 'six times' can you please tell me how even if Israel was attacked one time, how does that in any way justify or excuse it's illegal occupation and land grab? Thanks.
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037

    http://electronicintifada.net/content/gaza-reminds-us-zionisms-original-sin/13775

    '...Cooperation with the Israeli authorities might lead to short-term relief but it also validates Israel’s “right” to terrorize and humiliate Palestinians with our consent, “we” being all people of conscience. Whether we are Palestinian or not, the call of the hour is non-cooperation and resistance against injustice.

    Today, Israel and its supporters lay the blame for the violence in Gaza on Hamas. But Israel did not start its assaults on the Gaza Strip when Hamas was established in the late 1980s. Israel began attacking Gaza when the Strip was populated with the first generation refugees in the early 1950s.

    Palestinians, particularly in Gaza, are not faced with an option to resist and be killed or live in peace. They are presented with the options of being killed standing up and fighting or being killed sleeping in their beds.

    ...Criticizing Palestinian resistance is unconscionable. Israel must be subjected to boycott, divestment and sanctions. Israeli diplomats must be sent home in shame. Israeli leaders, and Israeli commanders traveling abroad, must fear prosecution.

    And these measures are to be combined with disobedience, non-cooperation and uncompromising resistance. This and only this will show mothers, fathers and children in Gaza that the world cares and that “never again” is more than an empty promise.
  • dancinacrossthewater
    dancinacrossthewater Posts: 800
    edited August 2014
    Byrnzie said:

    dancinacrossthewater said:


    Ok if you're questioning moral high ground when it comes to military tactics, how can you not mention that Israel was attacked on Yom Kippur in 73?! Christ.

    What bothers me so much is that I am supporting BDS against Israel to help bring about Palestinian statehood, and that's not enough for you guys. You want Israel shamed and humiliated.
    That's where in all honesty you completely lose credibility

    Israel wasn't attacked. The only areas that were attacked were the areas stolen by the Israeli's during the 1967 war. The Egyptians had every right to reclaim their land. Did you not read what I posted above?

    So Israel attacking an air force while it's grounded is heinous, but Egypt attacking a country during a day of fasting is just fine, huh, because as long as you're reclaiming land, you can do anything and kill anybody.

    And what about the land Israel returned in 79?

    Did you agree with the Avaaz petition's criticisms of Hamas, or were you holding your nose while you signed it?

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited August 2014
    dancinacrossthewater said:

    So Israel attacking an air force while it's grounded is heinous, but Egypt attacking a country during a day of fasting is just fine, huh, because as long as you're reclaiming land, you can do anything and kill anybody.

    Egypt didn't attack 'a country'. It sought to liberate it's own territory, which was stolen by the Israeli's in 1967.
    dancinacrossthewater said:

    And what about the land Israel returned in 79?

    I've already responded to this. Did you miss that?

    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • fuck
    fuck Posts: 4,069
    dancinacrossthewater said:

    And what about the land Israel returned in 79?

    Did you not read what I wrote before on this? Of course not. Because you refuse to engage with points that explain why your history and understanding is absolutely wrong. But you continue to push this false narrative.
  • dancinacrossthewater
    dancinacrossthewater Posts: 800
    fuck said:

    dancinacrossthewater said:

    And what about the land Israel returned in 79?

    Did you not read what I wrote before on this? Of course not. Because you refuse to engage with points that explain why your history and understanding is absolutely wrong. But you continue to push this false narrative.
    No I read it. Israel did give the land back, though.

    If Hamas lost the next election democratically, would you support a Fatah-led Gaza?
  • badbrains
    badbrains Posts: 10,255
    dancinacrossthewater said:

    fuck said:

    dancinacrossthewater said:

    And what about the land Israel returned in 79?

    Did you not read what I wrote before on this? Of course not. Because you refuse to engage with points that explain why your history and understanding is absolutely wrong. But you continue to push this false narrative.
    No I read it. Israel did give the land back, though.

    If Hamas lost the next election democratically, would you support a Fatah-led Gaza?
    I think EVERYBODY should support WHOEVER the Palestinians elect for their represenitives. Who the fuck are we to tell a people who to vote for or elect? Oh ya, I forgot, that's EXACTLLY what we do.
  • dancinacrossthewater
    dancinacrossthewater Posts: 800
    People always have opinions about other states' political parties. I don't live in America but I usually support Democrats over Republicans.

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