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Non-Liberal Fans: Conflicted?

osteoblasticosteoblastic Posts: 47
edited June 2014 in A Moving Train
**Disclaimer: I know they're musicians and no, I don't base my entire worldview on what 5 musicians believe, nor do my beliefs mitigate my love of the band. Just looking to have a conversation with some like-minded individuals**

I'm a long-time fan of PJ's music but a relative newcomer to PJ activism and the fanbase. I am also not a political Democrat, liberal, or progressive (though I used to be). I would say, though I haven't worked out all the "kinks" in my head, my philosophy is very strongly anti-force/violence, meaning the advocacy of voluntary association and protecting individual rights (I don't identify as conservative or Republican or anarchist- I suppose the closest would be Libertarianism [not tea party, people]). And yet, I still agree with PJ's stances on a lot of values & causes. I was raised in the same liberal metropolis as Eddie, I'm socially progressive, very concerned about environmental issues and peace, strong love of Nature... just can't get on board with turning to government every time we want something to change.

It's so weird to listen to a lot of PJ lyrics and think, "Seriously, you guys sound like such libertarians/anti-force proponents!" and yet they're not at all, politically. So my brain is wrestling with that confusion. Part of me wishes I could sit down with the band and be able to ask how they came to believe XYZ but not ABC. Just to make sense in my head of why they appeal to me so much, and how we agree on so many other things (based on interviews, concert commentary, and lyrics), but not political stance. Hell, maybe they could convince me to come back over to the other side! :p

How do other non-liberal/non-Democrat PJ fans feel about being major fans of a band who actively advocates for a different system than what you support? I know you're out there, but when I searched I didn't see a post that addressed this directly.

And if you're a liberal fan, feel free to comment, though I'm not looking to discuss whether my political beliefs are invalid/stupid/unrealistic/etc- seems like there are plenty of other threads for that already :)
I gotta say it now, better loud than too late. 2014-10-19 St Paul, MN
Post edited by osteoblastic on
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Comments

  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038
    PJ "advocates for increased centralized control and the threat/use of force by one group over others"? What? Interesting notion- sorry but that almost made me laugh.

    My suggestion is drop the labels, do the right thing, be yourself, be kind, help others including other animals, help keep the planet healthy so we can all carry on and enjoy the music.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    The word "Liberal" isn't a bad word.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • BinFrogBinFrog Posts: 7,309
    brianlux said:

    PJ "advocates for increased centralized control and the threat/use of force by one group over others"? What?

    Yeah, I stopped taking the post seriously right around this point.
    Bright eyed kid: "Wow Typo Man, you're the best!"
    Typo Man: "Thanks kidz, but remembir, stay in skool!"
  • osteoblasticosteoblastic Posts: 47
    brianlux said:

    PJ "advocates for increased centralized control and the threat/use of force by one group over others"? What? Interesting notion- sorry but that almost made me laugh.

    Did you think laws are just enforced by people saying "please"? If you disobey the government long enough, you have people with guns show up at your door, regardless of how non-violently you disobeyed whatever law. See: tax evasion, for example. And why do they bring guns? Because you have to come with them "or else." There's always the threat of violence when the government makes a law. That's, ultimately, the only way they can get everyone to follow them.

    So, wanting a law for this and a law for that means another circumstance where the government has to enforce a law, in other words another situation that could end with armed police at your door/business. Wanting more laws means you're ok with the possibility that someone will use a gun to enforce that law. If you don't know that, maybe you shouldn't be voting :(
    I gotta say it now, better loud than too late. 2014-10-19 St Paul, MN
  • osteoblasticosteoblastic Posts: 47
    callen said:

    The word "Liberal" isn't a bad word.

    Never said it was. I just said I don't call myself one in the political sense. I'm pretty "liberal" in a lot of other ways.
    I gotta say it now, better loud than too late. 2014-10-19 St Paul, MN
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038
    osteoblastic said:

    brianlux said:

    PJ "advocates for increased centralized control and the threat/use of force by one group over others"? What? Interesting notion- sorry but that almost made me laugh.

    Did you think laws are just enforced by people saying "please"? If you disobey the government long enough, you have people with guns show up at your door, regardless of how non-violently you disobeyed whatever law. See: tax evasion, for example. And why do they bring guns? Because you have to come with them "or else." There's always the threat of violence when the government makes a law. That's, ultimately, the only way they can get everyone to follow them.

    So, wanting a law for this and a law for that means another circumstance where the government has to enforce a law, in other words another situation that could end with armed police at your door/business. Wanting more laws means you're ok with the possibility that someone will use a gun to enforce that law. If you don't know that, maybe you shouldn't be voting :(
    Facepalm.

    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,675
    I'm a progressive, but I work with a lot of libertarians. I mean real ones, not Tea Party people who really aren't libertarian in many of their views. What I have found is that there is not a lot of light between issues for libertarians and progressives, particularly on the social issues. It all comes down to the economics. Not only do they not feel that the gov't should be involved in all issues, rather they should be involved, centrally, in basically zero issues. It even comes down to public schools. A true libertarian does't believe in that either. The function of the fed gov't is to protect the people from external threats. And it's function basically ends there. Every regulation from the ACA (obviously), FMLA, minimum wage, the ADA, etc. is an unnecessary government intrusion. They get a little squirmy when it comes to the SEC, OCC and some other regulatory bodies that are focused on fair practices because they see how the institutional investor can severely damage the retail one, but this conflicts with their core beliefs.

    So I'm not all that conflicted on the Band's views. They are definitely left of me, economically, but I don't know how far left. I work in financial services and have seen how the CFPB's (created out of Dodd Frank Act) has really hurt financial services in an unfair way. So I am conflicted on the extreme of some issues. But I also know that you have to take hard positions in order to land in the middle. And economically, I think we should be in the middle. Socially, I'm very progressive (heading to Denver next week for the first time since the new year! Can't wait! May not come back!)

    I can see how you would be conflicted. I listen to music, and really focus on the message of the artist. For example, Toby Keith made me sick in 2004 when he made that album and put the bombing of Baghdad on it. I mean Jesus, there were women and children killed that night. I don't know if I could ever listen to music where I fundamentally disagreed with the message.
  • osteoblasticosteoblastic Posts: 47
    brianlux said:



    Facepalm.

    Yeah, that's not a response. And I guess you didn't read to the bottom of the post where I said I didn't post this to argue about whether my non-liberal ideas are ridiculous or not. All I was asking was for non-liberal fans to weigh in on how it is to have disagreements with some of PJ's stances.
    I gotta say it now, better loud than too late. 2014-10-19 St Paul, MN
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,038
    You guys do realize this thread will be locked, right?
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • osteoblasticosteoblastic Posts: 47
    brianlux said:

    You guys do realize this thread will be locked, right?

    Wait, what? I didn't come here to start an argument, I honestly just wanted to have a discussion with like-minded people... Seriously, I'm not trolling or something.

    I gotta say it now, better loud than too late. 2014-10-19 St Paul, MN
  • BinFrogBinFrog Posts: 7,309
    osteoblastic said:

    brianlux said:



    Facepalm.

    Yeah, that's not a response. And I guess you didn't read to the bottom of the post where I said I didn't post this to argue about whether my non-liberal ideas are ridiculous or not. All I was asking was for non-liberal fans to weigh in on how it is to have disagreements with some of PJ's stances.
    and you then went on to say that knowingly or not, PJ stands behind increased centralized control and the threat/use of force by one group over others.

    To which *facepalm* is a completely acceptable response.
    Bright eyed kid: "Wow Typo Man, you're the best!"
    Typo Man: "Thanks kidz, but remembir, stay in skool!"
  • osteoblasticosteoblastic Posts: 47
    BinFrog said:



    and you then went on to say that knowingly or not, PJ stands behind increased centralized control and the threat/use of force by one group over others.

    To which *facepalm* is a completely acceptable response.

    Ok, I'll rescind that. I realize it sounds incendiary and I didn't mean it that way. I think to small-government people that wouldn't be irrational or confusing but I can see how to the general public that would sound ridiculous. I can remove that. That wasn't the point of my post.
    I gotta say it now, better loud than too late. 2014-10-19 St Paul, MN
  • osteoblasticosteoblastic Posts: 47
    mrussel1 said:


    I can see how you would be conflicted. I listen to music, and really focus on the message of the artist. For example, Toby Keith made me sick in 2004 when he made that album and put the bombing of Baghdad on it. I mean Jesus, there were women and children killed that night. I don't know if I could ever listen to music where I fundamentally disagreed with the message.

    Thank you for a serious response to my question. I generally do the same, and I'm pretty used to having friends and family members bo don't agree with me in this way (on both ends of the spectrum). It's just part of figuring out how people come up with their beliefs and how they evolve over time.

    I gotta say it now, better loud than too late. 2014-10-19 St Paul, MN
  • BinFrogBinFrog Posts: 7,309
    I'm mostly liberal (not in the political sense for the most part, but just in general). I tend to agree with a lot of the stuff Eddie has said over the years, and some stuff not so much.

    The key with PJ, as with ANY band, is to separate the people from the music as much as possible. If you can't, then maybe some bands are not for you. The prime example I always use is GnR. I'll always love me some GnR. But Axl? Yeah...the guy is pretty much the uber-douche of rock. That doesn't mean he doesn't write some great tunes.

    At the height of their political years (I would say 2003), you could definitely almost count on hearing a 2-3 minute political diatribe at some point during a PJ show. I could see that being annoying for people with very different views (like I said, I generally agree with them, and I was very anti-Bush so that was fine with me), but you have to just look at it realistically: 2-3 minute speech going against your views, surrounded by 2-3 hours of amazing music. Fair trade if you ask me.

    A lot of the bands/musicians that have complete polar opposite views to mine also tend to put out really shitty music, or at least music that I don't find enjoyable in the least. That makes it easy in those cases.
    Bright eyed kid: "Wow Typo Man, you're the best!"
    Typo Man: "Thanks kidz, but remembir, stay in skool!"
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    osteoblastic said:

    callen said:

    The word "Liberal" isn't a bad word.

    Never said it was. I just said I don't call myself one in the political sense. I'm pretty "liberal" in a lot of other ways.
    Right. You told us of how your a liberal with your positions then let us know your not one. Plus there are social and physical liberals. Many lean different ways depending which one.
    Hey welcome to the Train and get used to some flak if you continue to post. Some of our other non- liberal liberals could use the support. :D
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    brianlux said:

    You guys do realize this thread will be locked, right?

    Hope not its great thread and glad op joined into the fray.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • osteoblasticosteoblastic Posts: 47


    A lot of the bands/musicians that have complete polar opposite views to mine also tend to put out really shitty music, or at least music that I don't find enjoyable in the least. That makes it easy in those cases.
    Thank you for responding to my original question :) Yeah I'm not falling apart about it or anything because you're right- they make some amazing music and I'll continue to follow whatever they choose to do as a band. I've been a fan of something very conservative artists, and some of the things they said made my head hurt. I suppose it goes both ways.

    I think my confusion or whatever you might call it comes in because I'm constantly testing out my own beliefs, and when I find intelligent-thoughtful people who disagree with me on whatever it may be, I have an urge to know why. Mostly because I could be wrong, and I'd hate to go through life being wrong about something kind of major. So, knowing that PJ and I disagree on something, because I view them as relatively intelligent people, sets off the part of my brain that wonders why there's a difference.
    I gotta say it now, better loud than too late. 2014-10-19 St Paul, MN
  • BinFrogBinFrog Posts: 7,309
    osteoblastic said:

    So, knowing that PJ and I disagree on something, because I view them as relatively intelligent people, sets off the part of my brain that wonders why there's a difference.


    because there's no 1 right way to be intelligent.
    Bright eyed kid: "Wow Typo Man, you're the best!"
    Typo Man: "Thanks kidz, but remembir, stay in skool!"
  • osteoblasticosteoblastic Posts: 47
    BinFrog said:

    osteoblastic said:

    So, knowing that PJ and I disagree on something, because I view them as relatively intelligent people, sets off the part of my brain that wonders why there's a difference.

    because there's no 1 right way to be intelligent.
    Yes, you're definitely right there too. And being intelligent in certain outwardly visible ways doesn't mean being intelligent in others. There are areas of intelligence where I'm completely worthless (and I ain't saying I'm a jedi master at political science, either). Mostly, like I said, it would just be totally cool to sit down and have a conversation with them about worldviews and such.
    I gotta say it now, better loud than too late. 2014-10-19 St Paul, MN
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,675
    Some bands are explicitly political, and others are not. Therefore a band like GNR can still be listened to because you know Axl's a douche, but you can still like the songs. There are other bands that it would difficult to listen to if you have an opposing view point.

    For example, it was a total joke to hear that Paul Ryan's favorite band was Rage. I mean, for real? How can you listen to them when they stand against everything you stand for? PJ is definitely a political band. Not all the time, but they certainly wear their politics on their sleeve. And I have no issues with that. What made Rock N Roll very relevant, historically, was the protests aspect of it. IMHO.

    Other great bands showed zero signs of politics. Look at Zeppelin. They were all about the occult, fantasy and some history. No one has any idea of their politics. Then you have someone like Natalie Merchant who was very socially oriented in her songs.

    But I hate when someone says, "shut and play". That's BS. I want to hear an artist's opinion if it is what inspires him/her.
  • osteoblasticosteoblastic Posts: 47
    callen said:

    osteoblastic said:

    callen said:

    The word "Liberal" isn't a bad word.

    Never said it was. I just said I don't call myself one in the political sense. I'm pretty "liberal" in a lot of other ways.
    Right. You told us of how your a liberal with your positions then let us know your not one. Plus there are social and physical liberals. Many lean different ways depending which one.
    Hey welcome to the Train and get used to some flak if you continue to post. Some of our other non- liberal liberals could use the support. :D
    Non-liberal liberals? I'm definitely of the mind that the whole dang thing is like a disconnected "O" where if you go in one direction long enough or the other, the world would tend to look pretty similar either way (extreme anarcho-capitalism vs. extreme anarcho-communism). And then there's those who flop all over the spectrum depending on the topic (like most people).

    Thanks for the welcome. I can tell by brianlux's other posts around here where he(she) sits on the general spectrum of ideology, so I won't get too hurt by the flak there- it's to be expected. Glad I'm not the only one though, even if it's a minority :)
    I gotta say it now, better loud than too late. 2014-10-19 St Paul, MN
  • BinFrogBinFrog Posts: 7,309
    osteoblastic said:

    BinFrog said:

    osteoblastic said:

    So, knowing that PJ and I disagree on something, because I view them as relatively intelligent people, sets off the part of my brain that wonders why there's a difference.

    because there's no 1 right way to be intelligent.
    Yes, you're definitely right there too. And being intelligent in certain outwardly visible ways doesn't mean being intelligent in others. There are areas of intelligence where I'm completely worthless (and I ain't saying I'm a jedi master at political science, either). Mostly, like I said, it would just be totally cool to sit down and have a conversation with them about worldviews and such.

    And don't confuse intelligence with knowledge. I know several unbelievably smart yet generally useless people.
    Bright eyed kid: "Wow Typo Man, you're the best!"
    Typo Man: "Thanks kidz, but remembir, stay in skool!"
  • mrussel1mrussel1 Posts: 29,675
    Hey -did you mean fiscal/financial liberals? I don't follow physical liberals.
  • osteoblasticosteoblastic Posts: 47
    mrussel1 said:


    But I hate when someone says, "shut and play". That's BS. I want to hear an artist's opinion if it is what inspires him/her.

    Totally. Whether I agree with whatever it is or not. If that's what's behind one of my favorite songs, how could I be totally disinterested in the inspiration behind it? Even if I disagree, it could start a great conversation (in my head or with others).

    I gotta say it now, better loud than too late. 2014-10-19 St Paul, MN
  • BinFrogBinFrog Posts: 7,309
    mrussel1 said:

    I don't follow physical liberals.

    they are liberals that make you turn your head and cough
    Bright eyed kid: "Wow Typo Man, you're the best!"
    Typo Man: "Thanks kidz, but remembir, stay in skool!"
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    brianlux said:

    osteoblastic said:

    brianlux said:

    PJ "advocates for increased centralized control and the threat/use of force by one group over others"? What? Interesting notion- sorry but that almost made me laugh.

    Did you think laws are just enforced by people saying "please"? If you disobey the government long enough, you have people with guns show up at your door, regardless of how non-violently you disobeyed whatever law. See: tax evasion, for example. And why do they bring guns? Because you have to come with them "or else." There's always the threat of violence when the government makes a law. That's, ultimately, the only way they can get everyone to follow them.

    So, wanting a law for this and a law for that means another circumstance where the government has to enforce a law, in other words another situation that could end with armed police at your door/business. Wanting more laws means you're ok with the possibility that someone will use a gun to enforce that law. If you don't know that, maybe you shouldn't be voting :(
    Facepalm.

    Brian, does something else take place? Do they bring you flowers or do they kidnap you and put you in a cage?

  • osteoblasticosteoblastic Posts: 47
    BinFrog said:

    mrussel1 said:

    I don't follow physical liberals.

    they are liberals that make you turn your head and cough
    Awkward XD
    I gotta say it now, better loud than too late. 2014-10-19 St Paul, MN
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    brianlux said:

    You guys do realize this thread will be locked, right?

    Why? I haven't seen a personal attack and it is staying on topic.
  • osteoblasticosteoblastic Posts: 47
    unsung said:


    Brian, does something else take place? Do they bring you flowers or do they kidnap you and put you in a cage?

    Well, sometimes they shoot your dog instead... The number of such incidences I've seen in the last several years is kind of disturbing.
    I gotta say it now, better loud than too late. 2014-10-19 St Paul, MN
  • unsungunsung Posts: 9,487
    callen said:

    osteoblastic said:

    callen said:

    The word "Liberal" isn't a bad word.

    Never said it was. I just said I don't call myself one in the political sense. I'm pretty "liberal" in a lot of other ways.
    Right. You told us of how your a liberal with your positions then let us know your not one. Plus there are social and physical liberals. Many lean different ways depending which one.
    Hey welcome to the Train and get used to some flak if you continue to post. Some of our other non- liberal liberals could use the support. :D

    There's like three of us, still can't drive me out! You guys will come around one day, I did.

    I'm unsung and I'm an ex-democrat.
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