America's Gun Violence

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  • PJPOWER
    PJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    edited September 2017
    CM189191 said:
    PJPOWER said:
    CM189191 said:
    PJPOWER said:
    CM189191 said:
    mace1229 said:
    CM189191 said:
    mace1229 said:
    CM189191 said:
    mace1229 said:
    I don;t agree with the gun insurance thing. I believe in holding people responsible for their own actions, and not making the 99%+ of gun owners who are responsible pay for the <1% who aren't.
    You can still be liable for not properly storing firearms and keeping them away from kids and felons. An insurance plan doesn't impact those committing the crimes or hold them accountable, it just makes someone else pay for the damage they do.
    How would you hold Lanza's mom accountable? She's dead. 
    She's dead? How would you hold anyone dead accountable? A bank robber gets killed in the robbery, how would you hold him accountable for robbing the place after he died?

    I don't like the insurance idea. If its an accident at home, home insurance would probably cover that. Some states do have legal and civil consequences for not locking up your gins properly. But if you're storing them properly and they get stolen, that would be like holding you responsible when someone steals your car out of your garage and runs over a pedestrian. 
    The idea of gun insurance as explained would be like having alcohol insurance. You know the effects of alcohol when you buy it, so you are required to have alcohol insurance before you buy or drink any. In case you become a violent drunk, or decide to drive a car, you now have insurance to cover that. And if you are proven to be a violent drunk, your premiums go up.
    Or even better, marijuana insurance for anyone who buys or uses it. Because marijuana is 50 times for potent than it was 20 years ago, we need that coverage for the 45 year old experimenting for the first time since high school and doesn't realize how strong it is. Or the guy who keeps edibles at the house and someone accidentally eats them. If you have kids your premiums go up. And all of this insurance is made up by the anti-legalize it group as a method to deter sales, because in their mind, less weed is better. That's exactly how the gun insurance was presented, was even stated it would be used as a financial deterrent from guns.
    If you shot yourself, that would be covered by your health insurance, not your homeowner's.

     If your kid found your gun and shot the neighbor, it might cover the medical bills. But would probably not cover any lawsuit if they decided to sue.

     Funny thing, I have alcohol and marijuana insurance. It's BCBS.
    You missed my point. One, not the same thing. That's like saying my BCBS covers a hunting accident. It does, but that wasn't the point of the hypothetical gun insurance. Two, you're not required to have additional insurance where the design is to prevent you from using alcohol in the first place, which was the intent of said "gun insurance. "
    No?  If I have a bunch of alcohol related illnesses - do my premiums not go up?  Does it not cost me money out of pocket for my deductible when I go to the doctor?  

    There is definitely a financial incentive to keeping myself healthy.  So much so that my employer subsidizes my insurance for not smoking, going to my annual, and taking part in 'healthy activities' like 5Ks.  
    If you are stuck on the insurance idea, it would make much more sense to just require general "gun owner" insurance instead of insuring each individual firearm for reasons I stated earlier...not that I'm really on board with that as I just see it as yet another tax that would do little to actually curb gun violence. 
    and would you suggest the base price of this insurance be so that people would actually comply with it?
    That is how insurance policies works. You have a general 'auto insurance' policy, which covers you as the owner/driver. But you still declare the individual vehicles when you buy or sell one.

    Research suggests that the typical social cost of one more gun-owning household is somewhere between $100 and $1,800 per year.  They peg the optimal annual fee per gun-owning household at $600 per year.  

    You probably think that's too high.  I think the damage guns cause to our society is too high. 

    Perhaps the cost of gun ownership & insurance could be subsidized by public service.  The states could set up some sort of guard or reserve program where you donate a weekend of your time to public service in exchange for fun gun funds.  A well-regulated militia, if you will....
    Well, that will never get implemented...might as well stick to wishing they would all just disappear.  Far more realistic and would actually decrease, not promote the already lucrative black market.
    Is there any proof of this?  Japan, Australia, England, etc all have restrictive gun laws.  Is there some wild black market for guns going on in these countries that I'm not aware of?  Because it certainly isn't reflected in their gun violence rates per capita.  
    Plenty of articles out there about the massive rise in black market gun sales in Australia if you wish to google.  You may want to add "yet" to the end of your comment.

    https://sites.psu.edu/kalavritinosguncontrol/2016/04/01/firearms-in-australias-black-market/
    Post edited by PJPOWER on
  • PJPOWER
    PJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    Here is an interesting read:
    http://theantimedia.org/the-facts-that-neither-side-wants-to-admit-about-gun-control/
  • Go Beavers
    Go Beavers Posts: 9,559
    PJPOWER said:
    Here is an interesting read:
    http://theantimedia.org/the-facts-that-neither-side-wants-to-admit-about-gun-control/
    Pretty much ignores state by state gun murder rates and cherry picks to support their already made conclusion. Then throw in the I'm smarter than you vibe. 
  • PJPOWER
    PJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    Go Beavers said:
    PJPOWER said:
    Here is an interesting read:
    http://theantimedia.org/the-facts-that-neither-side-wants-to-admit-about-gun-control/
    Pretty much ignores state by state gun murder rates and cherry picks to support their already made conclusion. Then throw in the I'm smarter than you vibe. 
    You could have just said "it does not say what I want it to so I don't like it".  I think it brought up some good points from both ends of the spectrum.  
  • CM189191
    CM189191 Posts: 6,927
    Suicide rates did start to fall after the NFA.

    PJPOWER said:
    Go Beavers said:
    PJPOWER said:
    Here is an interesting read:
    http://theantimedia.org/the-facts-that-neither-side-wants-to-admit-about-gun-control/
    Pretty much ignores state by state gun murder rates and cherry picks to support their already made conclusion. Then throw in the I'm smarter than you vibe. 
    You could have just said "it does not say what I want it to so I don't like it".  I think it brought up some good points from both ends of the spectrum.  
    Let's see....who do I trust more.  Some crappy blog citing 'Hot Air' and 'The Anti Media'?  Or the Washington Post?

    Australia hasn't had a single mass shooting since the gun buyback.

    Homicides by firearm fell more rapidly after the passage of Australia's National Firearms Act: Those were falling by about 3 percent per year before the NFA, and the decline accelerated to 5.5 percent per year after.  (Obviously there was a huge investment in education during this time period)


    Suicide rates did start to fall after the NFA.  (They must have really stepped up their mental health services in 1997 also!)


    People weren't simply using other weapons as a result of the ban  (they must have cleaned up the metropolitan gang-ridden areas)

  • PJPOWER
    PJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    edited September 2017
    Nevermind
    Post edited by PJPOWER on
  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,235
    PJPOWER said:
    Nevermind
    Because it's always the other that needs to be held to account?
    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • Halifax2TheMax
    Halifax2TheMax Posts: 42,235
    And Joe knows

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rXwMrBb2x1Q


    09/15/1998 & 09/16/1998, Mansfield, MA; 08/29/00 08/30/00, Mansfield, MA; 07/02/03, 07/03/03, Mansfield, MA; 09/28/04, 09/29/04, Boston, MA; 09/22/05, Halifax, NS; 05/24/06, 05/25/06, Boston, MA; 07/22/06, 07/23/06, Gorge, WA; 06/27/2008, Hartford; 06/28/08, 06/30/08, Mansfield; 08/18/2009, O2, London, UK; 10/30/09, 10/31/09, Philadelphia, PA; 05/15/10, Hartford, CT; 05/17/10, Boston, MA; 05/20/10, 05/21/10, NY, NY; 06/22/10, Dublin, IRE; 06/23/10, Northern Ireland; 09/03/11, 09/04/11, Alpine Valley, WI; 09/11/11, 09/12/11, Toronto, Ont; 09/14/11, Ottawa, Ont; 09/15/11, Hamilton, Ont; 07/02/2012, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/04/2012 & 07/05/2012, Berlin, Germany; 07/07/2012, Stockholm, Sweden; 09/30/2012, Missoula, MT; 07/16/2013, London, Ont; 07/19/2013, Chicago, IL; 10/15/2013 & 10/16/2013, Worcester, MA; 10/21/2013 & 10/22/2013, Philadelphia, PA; 10/25/2013, Hartford, CT; 11/29/2013, Portland, OR; 11/30/2013, Spokane, WA; 12/04/2013, Vancouver, BC; 12/06/2013, Seattle, WA; 10/03/2014, St. Louis. MO; 10/22/2014, Denver, CO; 10/26/2015, New York, NY; 04/23/2016, New Orleans, LA; 04/28/2016 & 04/29/2016, Philadelphia, PA; 05/01/2016 & 05/02/2016, New York, NY; 05/08/2016, Ottawa, Ont.; 05/10/2016 & 05/12/2016, Toronto, Ont.; 08/05/2016 & 08/07/2016, Boston, MA; 08/20/2016 & 08/22/2016, Chicago, IL; 07/01/2018, Prague, Czech Republic; 07/03/2018, Krakow, Poland; 07/05/2018, Berlin, Germany; 09/02/2018 & 09/04/2018, Boston, MA; 09/08/2022, Toronto, Ont; 09/11/2022, New York, NY; 09/14/2022, Camden, NJ; 09/02/2023, St. Paul, MN; 05/04/2024 & 05/06/2024, Vancouver, BC; 05/10/2024, Portland, OR;

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  • tbergs
    tbergs Posts: 10,410
    Mark one for the good guys against an armed assailant. No gun needed.

    http://www.twincities.com/2017/09/22/during-st-paul-home-invasion-homeowner-fights-off-suspect-with-rifle-and-gun-goes-off/
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    tbergs said:
    Mark one for the good guys against an armed assailant. No gun needed.

    http://www.twincities.com/2017/09/22/during-st-paul-home-invasion-homeowner-fights-off-suspect-with-rifle-and-gun-goes-off/

    This could have gone very badly very easily.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • mace1229
    mace1229 Posts: 9,830
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:
    tbergs said:
    Mark one for the good guys against an armed assailant. No gun needed.

    http://www.twincities.com/2017/09/22/during-st-paul-home-invasion-homeowner-fights-off-suspect-with-rifle-and-gun-goes-off/

    This could have gone very badly very easily.
    Yeah, I don't see how that's a win? He was still injured and the got got away. I guess because he didn't take anything? I'd still say it's a loss though.
  • dudeman
    dudeman Posts: 3,160
    Good that no one was killed. 
    If hope can grow from dirt like me, it can be done. - EV
  • CM189191
    CM189191 Posts: 6,927
  • tbergs
    tbergs Posts: 10,410
    Another crazy asshole shot up a church and pistol whipped an usher.

    http://www.weau.com/content/news/Police-say-gunman-kills-1-injures-7-at-church-in-Nashville-447422713.html
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • dudeman
    dudeman Posts: 3,160
    What does "Not necessarily a US citizen" mean?

    If hope can grow from dirt like me, it can be done. - EV
  • PJPOWER
    PJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    edited September 2017
    tbergs said:
    Another crazy asshole shot up a church and pistol whipped an usher.

    http://www.weau.com/content/news/Police-say-gunman-kills-1-injures-7-at-church-in-Nashville-447422713.html
    Interesting what stopped the situation in its tracks...Glad more damage was not done and I commend the person that put his own life in jeopardy to stop the asshat instead of being a sheep.
    Post edited by PJPOWER on
  • CM189191
    CM189191 Posts: 6,927
    PJPOWER said:
    tbergs said:
    Another crazy asshole shot up a church and pistol whipped an usher.

    http://www.weau.com/content/news/Police-say-gunman-kills-1-injures-7-at-church-in-Nashville-447422713.html
    Interesting what stopped the situation in its tracks...Glad more damage was not done and I commend the person that put his own life in jeopardy to stop the asshat instead of being a sheep.
    Yet another mentally unstable person who shouldn't have had such easy access to a gun....
  • PJPOWER
    PJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    CM189191 said:
    PJPOWER said:
    tbergs said:
    Another crazy asshole shot up a church and pistol whipped an usher.

    http://www.weau.com/content/news/Police-say-gunman-kills-1-injures-7-at-church-in-Nashville-447422713.html
    Interesting what stopped the situation in its tracks...Glad more damage was not done and I commend the person that put his own life in jeopardy to stop the asshat instead of being a sheep.
    Yet another mentally unstable person who shouldn't have had such easy access to a gun....
    Is that the latest?  Have a link?
  • tbergs
    tbergs Posts: 10,410
    edited September 2017
    PJPOWER said:
    CM189191 said:
    PJPOWER said:
    tbergs said:
    Another crazy asshole shot up a church and pistol whipped an usher.

    http://www.weau.com/content/news/Police-say-gunman-kills-1-injures-7-at-church-in-Nashville-447422713.html
    Interesting what stopped the situation in its tracks...Glad more damage was not done and I commend the person that put his own life in jeopardy to stop the asshat instead of being a sheep.
    Yet another mentally unstable person who shouldn't have had such easy access to a gun....
    Is that the latest?  Have a link?
    From what I've read it sounds like he was probably a legal owner of all those guns. Some domestic issues that wouldn't have restricted his ownership rights.

    http://www.latimes.com/nation/sns-bc-us--tennessee-church-shooting-20170925-story.html
    Post edited by tbergs on
    It's a hopeless situation...
  • CM189191
    CM189191 Posts: 6,927
    PJPOWER said:
    CM189191 said:
    PJPOWER said:
    tbergs said:
    Another crazy asshole shot up a church and pistol whipped an usher.

    http://www.weau.com/content/news/Police-say-gunman-kills-1-injures-7-at-church-in-Nashville-447422713.html
    Interesting what stopped the situation in its tracks...Glad more damage was not done and I commend the person that put his own life in jeopardy to stop the asshat instead of being a sheep.
    Yet another mentally unstable person who shouldn't have had such easy access to a gun....
    Is that the latest?  Have a link?
    The article clearly states they were both members of the same church congregation.
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