America's Gun Violence

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  • PJPOWERPJPOWER Posts: 6,499

    Dude....your solution is "more guns." Which sounds more logical: voting in responsible people who realize we need more gun control....or, MORE GUNS!!? Think about your argument here. What if back in the 60's, instead of working hard and galvanizing support for the Civil Rights Act, people just threw their hands up in the air and said "Fuck this shit! This is too hard! We're never gonna convince rural, southern Americans that this makes sense---let's just not let black people vote again!"


    Obviously this isn't going to happen overnight. It starts by accepting that there is a problem and actively advocating for change like these kids in Florida are doing right now. And then enough people have to make their voices heard in voting booths. And again, gun owners who don't want to change gun laws are in the MINORITY. They are a loud and vociferous minority but they still are in the MINORITY.

    Well, hope the voting and politics works out.  In the mean time, I’m going to send my child to a school with armed staff and maybe even donate to their security funds.  I never said to stop the good fight, just suggested immediate measures to protect our children NOW.  
    As a parent, that is my focus.  
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Posts: 49,268
    my2hands said:
    If more guns was the answer America would be the safest place in the world

    It's shocking how well years of propaganda works, they have people actually believing this shit. 

    It's fucking amazing how brainwashed people have become. 30, 40 years ago, the NRA was not scaring people into believing they needed guns to protect themselves from the government like they are now.
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  • You use the phrase common sense.  Please explain this simple common sense idea that is going to work so well.

    Can you name any mass shootings off the top of your head before 1994?  The point you tried to make works both for you and against you.




    Texas tower massacre and McDonalds San Ysidro, CA.
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  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    my2hands said:
    Mass shootings don't just happen at schools, in case anybody hasn't noticed... but anyway 

    teams of armed guards at every school in America? Metal detectors at every entrance? Every doorway to every school secured and guarded?

    Great solution LOL... wtf is wrong with this country? It's fucking absurd

    How about when they get off the bus? Get let out for the day? The friday night football game? The Tuesday afternoon soccer practice? It's so easy to poke holes in this shirt sighted bullshit it's fucking laughable, if it wasn't so sad

    Imagine, just for a second, if America had no guns... what's that look like? Think about that for a second before you swallow down more NRA propaganda convincing you to cling to your AR-15
    So what actionable solution do you see as less laughable in a country ruled by Trump that can't even put together a budget.
    What amazing feat of bi-partisan legislation are you expecting to go through at any moment?

    Imagine America without guns?  WTF is the purpose of that?  There's hundreds of millions of them out there, that's our fucked up reality.  Dreaming of living in America without guns is just that, dreaming. 
    We need actions, not dreams.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Posts: 49,268
    edited February 2018
    You use the phrase common sense.  Please explain this simple common sense idea that is going to work so well.

    Can you name any mass shootings off the top of your head before 1994?  The point you tried to make works both for you and against you.





    Okay. The one in Stockton Cali killed like 30 kids in 1990ish...Luby's in Texas was a big one a few years later...and there was another big one in Cali 1993 that lead to the '94 bill just one year later.
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  • The JugglerThe Juggler Posts: 49,268
    PJPOWER said:
    Well, hope the voting and politics works out.  In the mean time, I’m going to send my child to a school with armed staff and maybe even donate to their security funds.  I never said to stop the good fight, just suggested immediate measures to protect our children NOW.  
    As a parent, that is my focus.  


    I'm not a parent. If I were, I don't know how safe I'd feel with a bunch of little kids in a room with a loaded gun.

    But, best of luck to you.

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  • The JugglerThe Juggler Posts: 49,268
    rgambs said:
    So what actionable solution do you see as less laughable in a country ruled by Trump that can't even put together a budget.
    What amazing feat of bi-partisan legislation are you expecting to go through at any moment?

    Imagine America without guns?  WTF is the purpose of that?  There's hundreds of millions of them out there, that's our fucked up reality.  Dreaming of living in America without guns is just that, dreaming. 
    We need actions, not dreams.

    I don't want an America without guns. I'm not opposed to obtaining one in the future. I do want an America without assault style guns though.
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  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,449
    rgambs said:
    I understand that many of us are all het up on this issue, but I have to say, from my perspective, the gun control crowd is not presenting their argument well here.  I'm seeing a majority of the comments arguing against straw men and using slippery slope sloppiness.
    I don't know- when those in favor of guns continue to suggest that everyone should arm themselves and want more guns, I think some sarcastic replies like "yee haw, more guns for everyone!" is reasonable response.  Are we supposed to argue for the millionth time that countries  with few guns have a lower percentage of gun related deaths?  We get tired of making the same logical arguments that fall on deaf ears.
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  • I'm looking at America now like how we were in the 60's/70's. 

    The new generation of peoples way of thinking is soooo much different than the status quo that huge changes/shifts in power will be happening.

    Gun legislation is going to be a hot button and change will be coming soon.  It has to.

    If huge change does come I would like to be able to keep and sell what I own.  I don't want to see the US do what California has done.
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    brianlux said:
    I don't know- when those in favor of guns continue to suggest that everyone should arm themselves and want more guns, I think some sarcastic replies like "yee haw, more guns for everyone!" is reasonable response.  Are we supposed to argue for the millionth time that countries  with few guns have a lower percentage of gun related deaths?  We get tired of making the same logical arguments that fall on deaf ears.
    But from the other side, are they supposed to point out, for the millionth time, that our country already has a bazillion guns that can't be eradicated any time soon?  

    I think there IS a middle ground in this issue, and it involves protecting yourself and our children as safely as you can while continuing to work hard to stop the production and proliferation and limit access.
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  • rgambs said:
    The thing missing from this is the justification for people needing firearms with such high capacity for casualties and the justification for not allowing background checks to include actionable, pertinent medical information.
    Nobody needs a rifle that fires 130 rounds per minute, and nobody with so many mental health issues should have access to said rifles.
    People don’t need any gun.  It is not about a need, it is about a right.  

    Are you for stopping all gun violence or are you for limiting which guns can be chosen for the shooter when they decide to do a mass shooting?  The reason I ask is because handguns kill a vastly larger number of people a year than riffles do, including the AR15.  But the AR15 gets all the attention when it is used in a mass shooting.  Banning AR15’s or any semiautomatic assault riffle (even though an assault rifle is basically a military looking rifle that has the same function as a rifle) doesn’t really stop gun violence.  You might curb gun violence by 3 percent.

    I agree with you that background checks should be more stringent.  I am not familiar with what all goes into a background check or the loopholes that allow a person to get around them. But I’m am sure that they could be better.  I agree on the mental health issue, the problem there is how do you work around it?  Anyone that has been diagnosed as being depressed goes into a government file?  What happens if someone that was cleared and shows no sign of mental health decides to go on a shooting spree?  

    These are questions I ask myself when I hear these solutions. I don’t own a gun so I personally have no vested interest in worrying that someone is going to come take my AR15 away, or any other semiautomatic (which is basically every gun that’s not a bolt action or single shot).  But I do believe in the constitution and the bill of rights.
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    rgambs said:
    But from the other side, are they supposed to point out, for the millionth time, that our country already has a bazillion guns that can't be eradicated any time soon?  

    I think there IS a middle ground in this issue, and it involves protecting yourself and our children as safely as you can while continuing to work hard to stop the production and proliferation and limit access.
    Exactly, it doesn’t have to be an “either/or” kind of thing.  Sometimes I wonder if people against any means of addressing the issue other than banning this or that do not want other methods implemented because fewer successful school shootings would result in less focus on banning those things.  I hope I’m wrong there.
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Posts: 49,268
    edited February 2018
    rgambs said:
    But from the other side, are they supposed to point out, for the millionth time, that our country already has a bazillion guns that can't be eradicated any time soon?  

    I think there IS a middle ground in this issue, and it involves protecting yourself and our children as safely as you can while continuing to work hard to stop the production and proliferation and limit access.

    I think we are on the same page unless you are advocating for teachers to all arm themselves? No problem with people owning guns to hunt and protect their families....and having more security at schools.
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  • unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    So now kids are not allowed to show their displeasure by marching or calling for marches across the country , to try to get something done about this giant fucking massacre problem we have , leave it to your or my generation to just sit on our hands and go absolutely nothing ....
    let me guess you have no kids in any schools ? 
    I don't care if they protest as long as they aren't destructive.  How does that impression even get made?
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Posts: 49,268
    People don’t need any gun.  It is not about a need, it is about a right.  

    Are you for stopping all gun violence or are you for limiting which guns can be chosen for the shooter when they decide to do a mass shooting?  The reason I ask is because handguns kill a vastly larger number of people a year than riffles do, including the AR15.  But the AR15 gets all the attention when it is used in a mass shooting.  Banning AR15’s or any semiautomatic assault riffle (even though an assault rifle is basically a military looking rifle that has the same function as a rifle) doesn’t really stop gun violence.  You might curb gun violence by 3 percent.

    I agree with you that background checks should be more stringent.  I am not familiar with what all goes into a background check or the loopholes that allow a person to get around them. But I’m am sure that they could be better.  I agree on the mental health issue, the problem there is how do you work around it?  Anyone that has been diagnosed as being depressed goes into a government file?  What happens if someone that was cleared and shows no sign of mental health decides to go on a shooting spree?  

    These are questions I ask myself when I hear these solutions. I don’t own a gun so I personally have no vested interest in worrying that someone is going to come take my AR15 away, or any other semiautomatic (which is basically every gun that’s not a bolt action or single shot).  But I do believe in the constitution and the bill of rights.

    Why can't we have more stringent background checks and ban weapons that are designed to kill mass amounts of people?

    Hand guns kill more people, but you can make a case for why a law abiding citizen should own one for protection. Can you do the same for a gun like the AR-15? I answered your question earlier about mass shootings prior to the ban in the 90's. Nothing is perfect, but it did curb mass shootings and then they sky rocketed after it expired. Reinstate it and put forth stricter, universal background checks, and also make it mandatory to have a license that needs to be renewed every 5 years in order to own a gun.


    Also, the constitution is a living document....

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  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576

    I think we are on the same page unless you are advocating for teachers to all arm themselves? No problem with people owning guns to hunt and protect their families....and having more security at schools.
    I'm for more security at schools and continued efforts at whatever gun control we can manage.
    More security at schools includes metal detectors and lockdown systems, security personnel, and volunteer teachers/admin who pass certification processes to have firearm options.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    rgambs said:
    I'm for more security at schools and continued efforts at whatever gun control we can manage.
    More security at schools includes metal detectors and lockdown systems, security personnel, and volunteer teachers/admin who pass certification processes to have firearm options.
    X2
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    People don’t need any gun.  It is not about a need, it is about a right.  

    Are you for stopping all gun violence or are you for limiting which guns can be chosen for the shooter when they decide to do a mass shooting?  The reason I ask is because handguns kill a vastly larger number of people a year than riffles do, including the AR15.  But the AR15 gets all the attention when it is used in a mass shooting.  Banning AR15’s or any semiautomatic assault riffle (even though an assault rifle is basically a military looking rifle that has the same function as a rifle) doesn’t really stop gun violence.  You might curb gun violence by 3 percent.

    I agree with you that background checks should be more stringent.  I am not familiar with what all goes into a background check or the loopholes that allow a person to get around them. But I’m am sure that they could be better.  I agree on the mental health issue, the problem there is how do you work around it?  Anyone that has been diagnosed as being depressed goes into a government file?  What happens if someone that was cleared and shows no sign of mental health decides to go on a shooting spree?  

    These are questions I ask myself when I hear these solutions. I don’t own a gun so I personally have no vested interest in worrying that someone is going to come take my AR15 away, or any other semiautomatic (which is basically every gun that’s not a bolt action or single shot).  But I do believe in the constitution and the bill of rights.
    If it isn't needed, it's got no business being a right.  

    Handguns should be very hard to get.  Assault rifles should be next to impossible to get.

    Yes, put everyone in a file that has mental health issues, make it part of a background check.  If you have a history and want to buy a firearm, you'd then need a series of assessments and mandatory permanent therapy sessions. 
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  • The JugglerThe Juggler Posts: 49,268
    rgambs said:
    I'm for more security at schools and continued efforts at whatever gun control we can manage.
    More security at schools includes metal detectors and lockdown systems, security personnel, and volunteer teachers/admin who pass certification processes to have firearm options.


    With you on all that except the teacher stuff. Something about a bunch of little kids being in a room with a loaded gun doesn't sound like the best idea.


    But this is good. There can be common ground. This stuff makes sense, while still pushing for a massive overhaul of our gun laws. I think gun control will finally be a major issue for most Americans, not just NRA members in November...

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  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    I fully support licensing and registration, including a firearm census that lawfully requires all owned firearms to be disclosed.  
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  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    rgambs said:
    So what actionable solution do you see as less laughable in a country ruled by Trump that can't even put together a budget.
    What amazing feat of bi-partisan legislation are you expecting to go through at any moment?

    Imagine America without guns?  WTF is the purpose of that?  There's hundreds of millions of them out there, that's our fucked up reality.  Dreaming of living in America without guns is just that, dreaming. 
    We need actions, not dreams.
    That wasn't the point of my comment... my point was what do you think America would look like without any guns? Would it be a better place, or a worse place? I think it would be MUCH better, you? The point is to show that guns bring NO VALUE to society as a whole, just negative. Once people realize that, maybe some will stop looking at guns like they are awesome, a necessity, and equal to a cure for cancer

    Your argument that it's too late and we just need to arm soft targets to the teeth  doesn't fly with me. If it takes 100 years to form a better and safer society I'm ok with that, it has to start somewhere.
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576


    With you on all that except the teacher stuff. Something about a bunch of little kids being in a room with a loaded gun doesn't sound like the best idea.


    But this is good. There can be common ground. This stuff makes sense, while still pushing for a massive overhaul of our gun laws. I think gun control will finally be a major issue for most Americans, not just NRA members in November...

    Well, it isn't the best idea, it's a terrible idea. 
    But that's where we are right now, unfortunately.

    If November doesn't go well I'm going to have to move to Canada lol
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  • People don’t need any gun.  It is not about a need, it is about a right.  

    Are you for stopping all gun violence or are you for limiting which guns can be chosen for the shooter when they decide to do a mass shooting?  The reason I ask is because handguns kill a vastly larger number of people a year than riffles do, including the AR15.  But the AR15 gets all the attention when it is used in a mass shooting.  Banning AR15’s or any semiautomatic assault riffle (even though an assault rifle is basically a military looking rifle that has the same function as a rifle) doesn’t really stop gun violence.  You might curb gun violence by 3 percent.

    I agree with you that background checks should be more stringent.  I am not familiar with what all goes into a background check or the loopholes that allow a person to get around them. But I’m am sure that they could be better.  I agree on the mental health issue, the problem there is how do you work around it?  Anyone that has been diagnosed as being depressed goes into a government file?  What happens if someone that was cleared and shows no sign of mental health decides to go on a shooting spree?  

    These are questions I ask myself when I hear these solutions. I don’t own a gun so I personally have no vested interest in worrying that someone is going to come take my AR15 away, or any other semiautomatic (which is basically every gun that’s not a bolt action or single shot).  But I do believe in the constitution and the bill of rights.
    3% of the victims of Sandy Hook, Las Vegas, Texas and both Florida massacres equates to 5 people. Ask any of the victim’s family and friends if they think that your “3%” would be worth it.
     
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  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,495
    The people who want more security in schools as well as train and arm teachers and school staff are the same people who want to reduce government spending and believe that teachers are overpaid.

    :dizzy:
    I think very few people support arming teachers. That is not a common viewpoint for GOP or gun owners.
  • rgambsrgambs Posts: 13,576
    mace1229 said:
    I think very few people support arming teachers. That is not a common viewpoint for GOP or gun owners.
    I don't think that's true.  It's everywhere.
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  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    rgambs said:
    I'm for more security at schools and continued efforts at whatever gun control we can manage.
    More security at schools includes metal detectors and lockdown systems, security personnel, and volunteer teachers/admin who pass certification processes to have firearm options.
    Sounds like a prison to me. Such an awesome future for our children

    Best country in the world, my ass
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,495
    rgambs said:
    I don't think that's true.  It's everywhere.
    I hear more security, maybe increase the number of campus police. But I only hear a few say give teachers guns.
    I hear that teachers should have the right to protect themselves by carrying a gun if they chose more often, but I just haven't hear any politician or anyone outside of a few maybe on facebook or here suggest that giving teachers guns is going to solve it.
    I just never saw that as an option anyone has taken seriously.
  • my2handsmy2hands Posts: 17,117
    rgambs said:
    I don't think that's true.  It's everywhere.
    thanks to a powerful propaganda campaign by the gun lobby and the republican establishment that they have bought and own

    it's not about the right to BEAR arms, it's about the right to SELL arms
  • mace1229mace1229 Posts: 9,495
    Maybe I'm wrong, I just always saw the number who support arming teachers is very small compared to the number who are gun owners.
    I'm a republican gun owner, I would not want teachers carrying guns. I dont think I am in the minority. 
  • PJPOWERPJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    edited February 2018
    mace1229 said:
    I hear more security, maybe increase the number of campus police. But I only hear a few say give teachers guns.
    I hear that teachers should have the right to protect themselves by carrying a gun if they chose more often, but I just haven't hear any politician or anyone outside of a few maybe on facebook or here suggest that giving teachers guns is going to solve it.
    I just never saw that as an option anyone has taken seriously.
    I don’t think anyone is advocating “giving” them to the teachers or forcing/requiring them to be armed...I would not be supportive of this.  Allowing them to voluntarily arm themselves- yes (with mandatory strict training and certification).
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