America's Gun Violence

oftenreading

Funny how quickly the narrative that pretty much every gun owner has these safes falls apart, and how the only response is "well, buy them one, then". 

PJ_Soul

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

mace1229 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I agree it's totally stupid to say that guns bought for protection should be locked up. If they're locked up with the ammo kept separate then they aren't really for home defense anymore, so what's the point? Gun advocates know that. They just spew that shit as a defense mechanism.

I believe this came up again recently in response to a kid getting a hold of a gun and accidentally shooting it. I 100% believe guns should be locked up with kids in the house. Most gun owners I personally know who have guns for protections have a small hand gun safe under the bed or near by, which would prevent access from a kid but allow access for self defense.
Personally I dont both, I lock all mine up in the safe. But I'm not worried about people breaking in my house in the middle of the night either. I have no problem admitting my gun collection is for sport

Yes, and I think that those whose interest in guns is related to sport/collecting are usually the most responsible gun owners. The thing is, those folks are usually the ones advocating for guns, based on their specialized perspective. I feel like they may often have a somewhat skewed view simply because they are the ones mired in the whole issue of gun safety, while those who are dangerous with guns or doing it irresponsibly are the problem in terms of death and crime stats (though not so much in terms of American gun culture, which is the biggest problem of all).

If you are concerned with the "culture", the best place to start pointing fingers might be Hollywood and toy manufacturers...

There are a lot of places to point. I think I'd personally rather start with the NRA.

PJPOWER

oftenreading said:

Funny how quickly the narrative that pretty much every gun owner has these safes falls apart, and how the only response is "well, buy them one, then". 

I'm not sure how one or two examples makes the narrative fall apart.  Maybe in PA, there is a much more laxed culture regarding safety...but riotzact's experience is far different from mine.  Buying them one is not a terrible response...is it? That would be doing ones part in increasing safety or at least awareness.  I believe that a gun owner leaving a firearm laying around like riotzact mentioned is neglectful and very irresponsible.  You either believe that people in general are responsible or irresponsible.  I believe that most people handle their shit. 

oftenreading

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

Funny how quickly the narrative that pretty much every gun owner has these safes falls apart, and how the only response is "well, buy them one, then". 

I'm not sure how one or two examples makes the narrative fall apart.  Maybe in PA, there is a much more laxed culture regarding safety...but riotzact's experience is far different from mine.

You say everybody you know with guns stores them securely so you believe the vast majority of gun owners does so. Riotzact says that everyone they know has guns, very few have gun safes, and those that do don't use them. Why do your experience and beliefs trump Riotzact's?

mcgruff10

oftenreading said:

Funny how quickly the narrative that pretty much every gun owner has these safes falls apart, and how the only response is "well, buy them one, then". 

One person says the opposite and the narrative falls apart?  

RiotZact

In their defense I do live in Pennsyltucky, or northern West Virginia as I like to call it. So their experience is likely one extreme and mine is the other, so the average and the reality is somewhere in the middle. 

PJPOWER

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

oftenreading said:

Funny how quickly the narrative that pretty much every gun owner has these safes falls apart, and how the only response is "well, buy them one, then". 

I'm not sure how one or two examples makes the narrative fall apart.  Maybe in PA, there is a much more laxed culture regarding safety...but riotzact's experience is far different from mine.

You say everybody you know with guns stores them securely so you believe the vast majority of gun owners does so. Riotzact says that everyone they know has guns, very few have gun safes, and those that do don't use them. Why do your experience and beliefs trump Riotzact's?

I don't know if mine trump riotsact's, but are definitely different.  I'm guessing that he is surrounded by mostly irresponsible people...?  That may be a good research topic for someone; Which areas do more (in general) irresponsible people reside?  Chicago would probably be at the top of the list seeing as how that is where tons gun deaths occur regardless of strict laws...

PJPOWER

RiotZact said:

In their defense I do live in Pennsyltucky, or northern West Virginia as I like to call it. So their experience is likely one extreme and mine is the other, so the average and the reality is somewhere in the middle. 

Very likely.  Seriously, though, I would hound the shit out of your stepdad to secure that firearm.  Just freaking irresponsible of him.

PJ_Soul

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

mace1229 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I agree it's totally stupid to say that guns bought for protection should be locked up. If they're locked up with the ammo kept separate then they aren't really for home defense anymore, so what's the point? Gun advocates know that. They just spew that shit as a defense mechanism.

I believe this came up again recently in response to a kid getting a hold of a gun and accidentally shooting it. I 100% believe guns should be locked up with kids in the house. Most gun owners I personally know who have guns for protections have a small hand gun safe under the bed or near by, which would prevent access from a kid but allow access for self defense.
Personally I dont both, I lock all mine up in the safe. But I'm not worried about people breaking in my house in the middle of the night either. I have no problem admitting my gun collection is for sport

Yes, and I think that those whose interest in guns is related to sport/collecting are usually the most responsible gun owners. The thing is, those folks are usually the ones advocating for guns, based on their specialized perspective. I feel like they may often have a somewhat skewed view simply because they are the ones mired in the whole issue of gun safety, while those who are dangerous with guns or doing it irresponsibly are the problem in terms of death and crime stats (though not so much in terms of American gun culture, which is the biggest problem of all).

If you are concerned with the "culture", the best place to start pointing fingers might be Hollywood and toy manufacturers...Many movies show plenty examples of normalized irresponsible gun usage.  Hell, even Joe Biden said you should just go outside and fire a gun in the air...which is highly illegal and unsafe.  I'll stick with law enforcement professionals for my advise on firearm usage and storage and whether or not the general public should be armed.

And since you added, I'll add a point too... Canada and many other countries are are just as exposed to Hollywood and toy companies as America is, and they don't have this gun culture. So I really don't think this has as much of an impact on the formation of the problem as you think it does. I'm not saying it doesn't play a role, but I'd say that the way Americans in particular respond to or absorb this information because of the gun culture is the issue, not the content on its own.

RiotZact

PJPOWER said:

RiotZact said:

In their defense I do live in Pennsyltucky, or northern West Virginia as I like to call it. So their experience is likely one extreme and mine is the other, so the average and the reality is somewhere in the middle. 

Very likely.  Seriously, though, I would hound the shit out of your stepdad to secure that firearm.  Just freaking irresponsible of him.

I have, he is very defensive and I like having a free place to live until I finish college, so I try not to piss him off too bad. 

mace1229

PJ_Soul said:

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

mace1229 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I agree it's totally stupid to say that guns bought for protection should be locked up. If they're locked up with the ammo kept separate then they aren't really for home defense anymore, so what's the point? Gun advocates know that. They just spew that shit as a defense mechanism.

I believe this came up again recently in response to a kid getting a hold of a gun and accidentally shooting it. I 100% believe guns should be locked up with kids in the house. Most gun owners I personally know who have guns for protections have a small hand gun safe under the bed or near by, which would prevent access from a kid but allow access for self defense.
Personally I dont both, I lock all mine up in the safe. But I'm not worried about people breaking in my house in the middle of the night either. I have no problem admitting my gun collection is for sport

Yes, and I think that those whose interest in guns is related to sport/collecting are usually the most responsible gun owners. The thing is, those folks are usually the ones advocating for guns, based on their specialized perspective. I feel like they may often have a somewhat skewed view simply because they are the ones mired in the whole issue of gun safety, while those who are dangerous with guns or doing it irresponsibly are the problem in terms of death and crime stats (though not so much in terms of American gun culture, which is the biggest problem of all).

If you are concerned with the "culture", the best place to start pointing fingers might be Hollywood and toy manufacturers...

There are a lot of places to point. I think I'd personally rather start with the NRA.

The NRA is always painted by the left as this big bad monster. I don't get it. Especially when it comes to blaming gun culture. 
Maybe I just don't pay close enough attention, but I never give the NRA a second thought until someone anti-gun brings it up.
I've never seen them advocate for gun violence or unsafe practices. Yes, they do advocate for gun rights that most anti-gunners would deem unnecessary (like high capacity mags). But I don't think that makes them this evil empire. 
At least in my experience the only pro-gun people who care about the NRA are those who fear losing their gun rights. Not people who want to expose everyone to gun culture. NRA and pro gun people don't care if you don't want a gun, they don't try to sell the gun image on people.
So to me it seems like they have zero impact on gun culture, and get a lot more attention by the anti-gun that pro-gun people.
Am I wrong? I just view them as fighting for gun rights, and you can agree or disagree with what they want. But they have little impact on gun culture and image, and therefore no impact on gun violence.
I would agree that the NRA helps with the gun rights phobia and helps spread the fear of losing your gun rights. But I don't see a connection between that and gun culture and/or violence.

oftenreading

mace1229 said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

mace1229 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I agree it's totally stupid to say that guns bought for protection should be locked up. If they're locked up with the ammo kept separate then they aren't really for home defense anymore, so what's the point? Gun advocates know that. They just spew that shit as a defense mechanism.

I believe this came up again recently in response to a kid getting a hold of a gun and accidentally shooting it. I 100% believe guns should be locked up with kids in the house. Most gun owners I personally know who have guns for protections have a small hand gun safe under the bed or near by, which would prevent access from a kid but allow access for self defense.
Personally I dont both, I lock all mine up in the safe. But I'm not worried about people breaking in my house in the middle of the night either. I have no problem admitting my gun collection is for sport

Yes, and I think that those whose interest in guns is related to sport/collecting are usually the most responsible gun owners. The thing is, those folks are usually the ones advocating for guns, based on their specialized perspective. I feel like they may often have a somewhat skewed view simply because they are the ones mired in the whole issue of gun safety, while those who are dangerous with guns or doing it irresponsibly are the problem in terms of death and crime stats (though not so much in terms of American gun culture, which is the biggest problem of all).

If you are concerned with the "culture", the best place to start pointing fingers might be Hollywood and toy manufacturers...

There are a lot of places to point. I think I'd personally rather start with the NRA.

The NRA is always painted by the left as this big bad monster. I don't get it. Especially when it comes to blaming gun culture. 
Maybe I just don't pay close enough attention, but I never give the NRA a second thought until someone anti-gun brings it up.
I've never seen them advocate for gun violence or unsafe practices. Yes, they do advocate for gun rights that most anti-gunners would deem unnecessary (like high capacity mags). But I don't think that makes them this evil empire. 
At least in my experience the only pro-gun people who care about the NRA are those who fear losing their gun rights. Not people who want to expose everyone to gun culture. NRA and pro gun people don't care if you don't want a gun, they don't try to sell the gun image on people.
So to me it seems like they have zero impact on gun culture, and get a lot more attention by the anti-gun that pro-gun people.
Am I wrong? I just view them as fighting for gun rights, and you can agree or disagree with what they want. But they have little impact on gun culture and image, and therefore no impact on gun violence.
I would agree that the NRA helps with the gun rights phobia and helps spread the fear of losing your gun rights. But I don't see a connection between that and gun culture and/or violence.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/post-nation/wp/2017/06/29/the-nra-recruitment-video-that-is-even-upsetting-gun-owners/

How about this video? Remember that?

mcgruff10

RiotZact said:

PJPOWER said:

RiotZact said:

In their defense I do live in Pennsyltucky, or northern West Virginia as I like to call it. So their experience is likely one extreme and mine is the other, so the average and the reality is somewhere in the middle. 

Very likely.  Seriously, though, I would hound the shit out of your stepdad to secure that firearm.  Just freaking irresponsible of him.

I have, he is very defensive and I like having a free place to live until I finish college, so I try not to piss him off too bad. 

Oh man that sucks and I am truely sorry. Serious question; does he hunt? 

PJPOWER

PJ_Soul said:

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

mace1229 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I agree it's totally stupid to say that guns bought for protection should be locked up. If they're locked up with the ammo kept separate then they aren't really for home defense anymore, so what's the point? Gun advocates know that. They just spew that shit as a defense mechanism.

I believe this came up again recently in response to a kid getting a hold of a gun and accidentally shooting it. I 100% believe guns should be locked up with kids in the house. Most gun owners I personally know who have guns for protections have a small hand gun safe under the bed or near by, which would prevent access from a kid but allow access for self defense.
Personally I dont both, I lock all mine up in the safe. But I'm not worried about people breaking in my house in the middle of the night either. I have no problem admitting my gun collection is for sport

Yes, and I think that those whose interest in guns is related to sport/collecting are usually the most responsible gun owners. The thing is, those folks are usually the ones advocating for guns, based on their specialized perspective. I feel like they may often have a somewhat skewed view simply because they are the ones mired in the whole issue of gun safety, while those who are dangerous with guns or doing it irresponsibly are the problem in terms of death and crime stats (though not so much in terms of American gun culture, which is the biggest problem of all).

If you are concerned with the "culture", the best place to start pointing fingers might be Hollywood and toy manufacturers...Many movies show plenty examples of normalized irresponsible gun usage.  Hell, even Joe Biden said you should just go outside and fire a gun in the air...which is highly illegal and unsafe.  I'll stick with law enforcement professionals for my advise on firearm usage and storage and whether or not the general public should be armed.

And since you added, I'll add a point too... Canada and many other countries are are just as exposed to Hollywood and toy companies as America is, and they don't have this gun culture. So I really don't think this has as much of an impact on the formation of the problem as you think it does. I'm not saying it doesn't play a role, but I'd say that the way Americans in particular respond to or absorb this information because of the gun culture is the issue, not the content on its own.

And how do you suggest that a culture be changed?  

PJPOWER

RiotZact said:

PJPOWER said:

RiotZact said:

In their defense I do live in Pennsyltucky, or northern West Virginia as I like to call it. So their experience is likely one extreme and mine is the other, so the average and the reality is somewhere in the middle. 

Very likely.  Seriously, though, I would hound the shit out of your stepdad to secure that firearm.  Just freaking irresponsible of him.

I have, he is very defensive and I like having a free place to live until I finish college, so I try not to piss him off too bad. 

Oh I see, in other words you are dependent on him so you enable/accept his behavior.  You must not feel very unsafe, because if you were concerned for your or someone else's life, I'm hoping that safety would outweigh convenience.

oftenreading

PJPOWER said:

RiotZact said:

PJPOWER said:

RiotZact said:

In their defense I do live in Pennsyltucky, or northern West Virginia as I like to call it. So their experience is likely one extreme and mine is the other, so the average and the reality is somewhere in the middle. 

Very likely.  Seriously, though, I would hound the shit out of your stepdad to secure that firearm.  Just freaking irresponsible of him.

I have, he is very defensive and I like having a free place to live until I finish college, so I try not to piss him off too bad. 

Oh I see, in other words you are dependent on him so you enable/accept his behavior.  You must not feel very unsafe, because if you were concerned for your or someone else's life, I'm hoping that safety would outweigh convenience.

That's kind of a shitty response. It seems that Riotzact made clear his/her efforts around changing the situation.  How would you suggest forcing someone to change their behaviour around gun use and storage?
 
People live in unsafe situations all the time if they don't have much choice. 

Go Beavers

There is no "average gun owner". If you're measuring average, then you pick a variable. Say how much do you lock up your gun. Some all the time. Some part time. Some never do. If you plot that in a graph, the average would fall in the some of the time range. 

PJPOWER

oftenreading said:

PJPOWER said:

RiotZact said:

PJPOWER said:

RiotZact said:

In their defense I do live in Pennsyltucky, or northern West Virginia as I like to call it. So their experience is likely one extreme and mine is the other, so the average and the reality is somewhere in the middle. 

Very likely.  Seriously, though, I would hound the shit out of your stepdad to secure that firearm.  Just freaking irresponsible of him.

I have, he is very defensive and I like having a free place to live until I finish college, so I try not to piss him off too bad. 

Oh I see, in other words you are dependent on him so you enable/accept his behavior.  You must not feel very unsafe, because if you were concerned for your or someone else's life, I'm hoping that safety would outweigh convenience.

That's kind of a shitty response. It seems that Riotzact made clear his/her efforts around changing the situation.  How would you suggest forcing someone to change their behaviour around gun use and storage?
 
People live in unsafe situations all the time if they don't have much choice. 

I don't suggest him force the guy, but I would refuse to live in unsafe conditions if I could... Maybe he cannot, but "I like living there for free" sounds like convenience over necessity.  Maybe threatening to move out would bring more awareness, who knows...It's his decision to make as only he knows the real situation.  But if I thought my life was in danger, that would take president over free rent...and college too for that matter.  

mace1229

oftenreading said:

mace1229 said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

mace1229 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I agree it's totally stupid to say that guns bought for protection should be locked up. If they're locked up with the ammo kept separate then they aren't really for home defense anymore, so what's the point? Gun advocates know that. They just spew that shit as a defense mechanism.

I believe this came up again recently in response to a kid getting a hold of a gun and accidentally shooting it. I 100% believe guns should be locked up with kids in the house. Most gun owners I personally know who have guns for protections have a small hand gun safe under the bed or near by, which would prevent access from a kid but allow access for self defense.
Personally I dont both, I lock all mine up in the safe. But I'm not worried about people breaking in my house in the middle of the night either. I have no problem admitting my gun collection is for sport

Yes, and I think that those whose interest in guns is related to sport/collecting are usually the most responsible gun owners. The thing is, those folks are usually the ones advocating for guns, based on their specialized perspective. I feel like they may often have a somewhat skewed view simply because they are the ones mired in the whole issue of gun safety, while those who are dangerous with guns or doing it irresponsibly are the problem in terms of death and crime stats (though not so much in terms of American gun culture, which is the biggest problem of all).

If you are concerned with the "culture", the best place to start pointing fingers might be Hollywood and toy manufacturers...

There are a lot of places to point. I think I'd personally rather start with the NRA.

The NRA is always painted by the left as this big bad monster. I don't get it. Especially when it comes to blaming gun culture. 
Maybe I just don't pay close enough attention, but I never give the NRA a second thought until someone anti-gun brings it up.
I've never seen them advocate for gun violence or unsafe practices. Yes, they do advocate for gun rights that most anti-gunners would deem unnecessary (like high capacity mags). But I don't think that makes them this evil empire. 
At least in my experience the only pro-gun people who care about the NRA are those who fear losing their gun rights. Not people who want to expose everyone to gun culture. NRA and pro gun people don't care if you don't want a gun, they don't try to sell the gun image on people.
So to me it seems like they have zero impact on gun culture, and get a lot more attention by the anti-gun that pro-gun people.
Am I wrong? I just view them as fighting for gun rights, and you can agree or disagree with what they want. But they have little impact on gun culture and image, and therefore no impact on gun violence.
I would agree that the NRA helps with the gun rights phobia and helps spread the fear of losing your gun rights. But I don't see a connection between that and gun culture and/or violence.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/post-nation/wp/2017/06/29/the-nra-recruitment-video-that-is-even-upsetting-gun-owners/

How about this video? Remember that?

No. Apparently I don't pay close enough attention to what the NRA does.                  
   

PJ_Soul

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

mace1229 said:

PJ_Soul said:

I agree it's totally stupid to say that guns bought for protection should be locked up. If they're locked up with the ammo kept separate then they aren't really for home defense anymore, so what's the point? Gun advocates know that. They just spew that shit as a defense mechanism.

I believe this came up again recently in response to a kid getting a hold of a gun and accidentally shooting it. I 100% believe guns should be locked up with kids in the house. Most gun owners I personally know who have guns for protections have a small hand gun safe under the bed or near by, which would prevent access from a kid but allow access for self defense.
Personally I dont both, I lock all mine up in the safe. But I'm not worried about people breaking in my house in the middle of the night either. I have no problem admitting my gun collection is for sport

Yes, and I think that those whose interest in guns is related to sport/collecting are usually the most responsible gun owners. The thing is, those folks are usually the ones advocating for guns, based on their specialized perspective. I feel like they may often have a somewhat skewed view simply because they are the ones mired in the whole issue of gun safety, while those who are dangerous with guns or doing it irresponsibly are the problem in terms of death and crime stats (though not so much in terms of American gun culture, which is the biggest problem of all).

If you are concerned with the "culture", the best place to start pointing fingers might be Hollywood and toy manufacturers...Many movies show plenty examples of normalized irresponsible gun usage.  Hell, even Joe Biden said you should just go outside and fire a gun in the air...which is highly illegal and unsafe.  I'll stick with law enforcement professionals for my advise on firearm usage and storage and whether or not the general public should be armed.

And since you added, I'll add a point too... Canada and many other countries are are just as exposed to Hollywood and toy companies as America is, and they don't have this gun culture. So I really don't think this has as much of an impact on the formation of the problem as you think it does. I'm not saying it doesn't play a role, but I'd say that the way Americans in particular respond to or absorb this information because of the gun culture is the issue, not the content on its own.

And how do you suggest that a culture be changed?  

I've already said it is no easy feat to say the least. I actually don't think it will change, but if it does, it will take at least a couple hundred years, and will simply be through the very slow process of phasing out the current brand of underlying fear and aggression that I think Americans kind of feast on as a culture and represent through this love of guns. And it will take the enlightenment of government and the death of the GOP and the NRA. It will also take a serious softening of the extreme brand of militaristic nationalism that is still held dear by so many Americans and that is a constant thread through American culture. So yeah... it probably isn't ever going to happen, even in 1000 years. But that is what it will take.
......... And if you're looking for the short answer, a culture changes only through huge upheaval. Revolution or war or complete devastation.