America's Gun Violence

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  • PJPOWER
    PJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    edited February 2017
    mace1229 said:

    I'm not saying that they should never ask. I was just pointing out in all of the cases I've experienced it wasn't relevant, at least not so since they didn't do anything with the information. They ask if I own a gun while my wife is in labor. They don't ask if it is locked up, if I use it properly, or anything else that would qualify the question as to making sure it is a safe environment.
    And in liberal areas, I can see how someone who does own a gun would be uncomfortable answering that question.
    If CPS wants to know who has a gun in a home with children, my guns are already registered, so why leave it up to the doctor to find out?

    Not to mention, anyone could just say "no" when asked. That is actually the suggestion from most gun rights groups. I'm not suggesting anyone lie to their physician, but it seems like a viable option if you are concerned why that data is being collected and where it might end up. "Just say no" lol. I have never had actually a physician ask me the question...
    Post edited by PJPOWER on
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    Aaarrgghh.

    The information is not for CPS. It's not for the police. It's not to take your guns away. It's just to try to keep your kids from killing themselves or anyone else.
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • mace1229
    mace1229 Posts: 9,905
    edited February 2017
    oftenreading said:

    Aaarrgghh.

    The information is not for CPS. It's not for the police. It's not to take your guns away. It's just to try to keep your kids from killing themselves or anyone else.

    okay, so how is asking that question without any follow-up whatsoever going to help with that? I am really curious how my doctor asking me if I own a gun, and when I say yes just moves on to the next question on the list and asks if I smoke next is going to prevent my kid from shooting himself?

    At least if I had to sign some sort of legally binding agreement that stated I have taken a safety course and lock up all guns and ammunition away from kids I could see some purpose in that. But if that is going to be done it should be done when i purchase the gun and not when my wife is in labor. And if my kid ever got a hold of one that would be used against me.
    Obviously more people would have a problem with that, but I would at least see the argument in the purpose.

    But by simply just asking if you own a gun and doing nothing about it solves nothing. There is no purpose to that question if there is not going to be any follow-up, so why ask it? It is a question that makes some uncomfortable because there are some very passionate anti-gun people out there
    Post edited by mace1229 on
  • mace1229
    mace1229 Posts: 9,905
    edited February 2017
    I for one have no problem answering and have been honest and don't think anyone is taking my guns away. My point was it is a pointless question, so why is it any deal that some are uncomfortable answering?
    it is completely irrelevant, and if they were asking other personal questions like "are you pro-life" while you were about to have a baby there'd be 10 times the pushback answering that question. Personally to me I don't see the difference in the 2, both are equally irrelevant to the situation and none of the doctor's business in knowing.
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    mace1229 said:

    oftenreading said:

    Aaarrgghh.

    The information is not for CPS. It's not for the police. It's not to take your guns away. It's just to try to keep your kids from killing themselves or anyone else.

    okay, so how is asking that question without any follow-up whatsoever going to help with that? I am really curious how my doctor asking me if I own a gun, and when I say yes just moves on to the next question on the list and asks if I smoke next is going to prevent my kid from shooting himself?

    At least if I had to sign some sort of legally binding agreement that stated I have taken a safety course and lock up all guns and ammunition away from kids I could see some purpose in that. But if that is going to be done it should be done when i purchase the gun and not when my wife is in labor. And if my kid ever got a hold of one that would be used against me.
    Obviously more people would have a problem with that, but I would at least see the argument in the purpose.

    But by simply just asking if you own a gun and doing nothing about it solves nothing. There is no purpose to that question if there is not going to be any follow-up, so why ask it? It is a question that makes some uncomfortable because there are some very passionate anti-gun people out there
    The point isn't just to ask the question. The point is to ask so that the doctor can then further ask about safe storage and handling procedures. If you tell them you don't have any guns then probably yes, there aren't going to be follow up questions. If you tell them you have guns then a discussion ensues.

    I don't know if your example about being asked when your wife was in labour was a real situation or one you threw out. If it was real, then it was likely to cue a later discussion about safe storage when that's appropriate.
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • EM194007
    EM194007 Posts: 2,827
    oftenreading said:

    Aaarrgghh.

    The information is not for CPS. It's not for the police. It's not to take your guns away. It's just to try to keep your kids from killing themselves or anyone else.

    Doctors receive absolutely no training about firearm safety, mechanics, or tactics in medical school or residency. They are completely unqualified by their training to advise anyone about guns.
  • mace1229
    mace1229 Posts: 9,905
    oftenreading said:

    mace1229 said:

    oftenreading said:

    Aaarrgghh.

    The information is not for CPS. It's not for the police. It's not to take your guns away. It's just to try to keep your kids from killing themselves or anyone else.

    okay, so how is asking that question without any follow-up whatsoever going to help with that? I am really curious how my doctor asking me if I own a gun, and when I say yes just moves on to the next question on the list and asks if I smoke next is going to prevent my kid from shooting himself?

    At least if I had to sign some sort of legally binding agreement that stated I have taken a safety course and lock up all guns and ammunition away from kids I could see some purpose in that. But if that is going to be done it should be done when i purchase the gun and not when my wife is in labor. And if my kid ever got a hold of one that would be used against me.
    Obviously more people would have a problem with that, but I would at least see the argument in the purpose.

    But by simply just asking if you own a gun and doing nothing about it solves nothing. There is no purpose to that question if there is not going to be any follow-up, so why ask it? It is a question that makes some uncomfortable because there are some very passionate anti-gun people out there
    The point isn't just to ask the question. The point is to ask so that the doctor can then further ask about safe storage and handling procedures. If you tell them you don't have any guns then probably yes, there aren't going to be follow up questions. If you tell them you have guns then a discussion ensues.

    I don't know if your example about being asked when your wife was in labour was a real situation or one you threw out. If it was real, then it was likely to cue a later discussion about safe storage when that's appropriate.
    That hasn't been my experience.
    "Do you own a gun?"
    yes
    "okay, do you smoke?"
    .....
  • PJPOWER
    PJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    EM194007 said:

    oftenreading said:

    Aaarrgghh.

    The information is not for CPS. It's not for the police. It's not to take your guns away. It's just to try to keep your kids from killing themselves or anyone else.

    Doctors receive absolutely no training about firearm safety, mechanics, or tactics in medical school or residency. They are completely unqualified by their training to advise anyone about guns.
    Exactly, and it is probably mostly for CYA purposes. When I was a counselor, we were trained to ask people about access to firearms, knives, razor blades, etc when assessing a suicidal or homicidal client that was in crisis to determine risk factors. But, once again, anyone can say anything and you have the option to choose what you say if you are concerned with how the information is used or where it goes. It could be a random sample for statistical purposes, which would make a little sense. Just do not divulge if you are concerned. It's not like they are hooking people up to polygraphs.
    Back to your point, though, they are not trained to teach anyone about firearm safety and that would be outside of their medical practice...which invites lawsuits.
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    This is the kind of thinking that contributes to the massive gun problem in the USA.
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • HughFreakingDillon
    HughFreakingDillon Winnipeg Posts: 39,769
    oftenreading said:

    Doctors ask about health issues all the time. Part of a doctor's role is to provide information and teaching around safety issues, particularly for parents.

    Doctors ask about things like car seat use. Maybe people think they should leave it up to Ford or Toyota?

    one doc I met with, and I never went back to, told me I had to promise to him that I'd wear a bike helmet and my seat belt every time I rode/drove or he would refuse to be my doctor.

    I do wear a helmet, and wear my seatbelt, but my doctor doesn't dictate my fucking life choices.
    By The Time They Figure Out What Went Wrong, We'll Be Sitting On A Beach, Earning Twenty Percent.




  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    HughFreakingDillon said:

    oftenreading said:

    Doctors ask about health issues all the time. Part of a doctor's role is to provide information and teaching around safety issues, particularly for parents.

    Doctors ask about things like car seat use. Maybe people think they should leave it up to Ford or Toyota?

    one doc I met with, and I never went back to, told me I had to promise to him that I'd wear a bike helmet and my seat belt every time I rode/drove or he would refuse to be my doctor.

    I do wear a helmet, and wear my seatbelt, but my doctor doesn't dictate my fucking life choices.
    Yeah, that's an odd and probably ineffective approach.

    Would you have objected if he asked you about helmet and seatbelt use and gave you some info about head injuries and cycling?
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    edited February 2017
    .
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    EM194007 said:

    oftenreading said:

    Aaarrgghh.

    The information is not for CPS. It's not for the police. It's not to take your guns away. It's just to try to keep your kids from killing themselves or anyone else.

    Doctors receive absolutely no training about firearm safety, mechanics, or tactics in medical school or residency. They are completely unqualified by their training to advise anyone about guns.
    Doctors also aren't experts on car seats either, but experts craft nice, neat little fliers that provide valuable information for parents, and it would work the same way with gun storage safety if regressive fucks would pull their head out of their asses and drop their ridiculously blinding pro-gun bias.
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    PJPOWER said:

    EM194007 said:

    oftenreading said:

    Aaarrgghh.

    The information is not for CPS. It's not for the police. It's not to take your guns away. It's just to try to keep your kids from killing themselves or anyone else.

    Doctors receive absolutely no training about firearm safety, mechanics, or tactics in medical school or residency. They are completely unqualified by their training to advise anyone about guns.
    Exactly, and it is probably mostly for CYA purposes. When I was a counselor, we were trained to ask people about access to firearms, knives, razor blades, etc when assessing a suicidal or homicidal client that was in crisis to determine risk factors. But, once again, anyone can say anything and you have the option to choose what you say if you are concerned with how the information is used or where it goes. It could be a random sample for statistical purposes, which would make a little sense. Just do not divulge if you are concerned. It's not like they are hooking people up to polygraphs.
    Back to your point, though, they are not trained to teach anyone about firearm safety and that would be outside of their medical practice...which invites lawsuits.
    1. Sucks that you believe that doctors or other health professionals would only ask about health related issues to cover their asses. When you were a counselor, did you only ask about firearms, knives and razor blades to CYA, or because you cared about your clients and wanted to help them?
    2. No one is saying that they are supposed to "teach anyone about firearm safety" in any detail. It's about raising the issue and hence raising awareness. How many times do we see newspaper articles about a toddler or preschooler finding a gun and shooting their sibling, or taking a gun out of mom's purse and shooting her at the grocery store? It's about raising awareness of the capacity of kids to do this, and the fact that they will look and they will touch, even when you've told them not to. That's the nature of child development, but a lot of parents aren't aware.
    3. Promoting safety and avoiding injury is well within medical practice. Whyever would you think it isn't? And I find it interesting that generally the public screams and complains about doctors being "pillpushers" and demands that they take a broader, more preventive approach, but when they do people scream and complain that it's outside their scope of practice.
    4. Yes, doctors get training on issues related to gun safety, as they relate to health.
    5. A lawsuit could just as easily, and probably more easily, happen if the doctor didn't ask about guns in the home and a child was killed, particularly in your ridiculously litigious culture. Many, many things can lead to a lawsuit. That doesn't make it right to not do it.

    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • EM194007
    EM194007 Posts: 2,827
    rgambs said:

    EM194007 said:

    oftenreading said:

    Aaarrgghh.

    The information is not for CPS. It's not for the police. It's not to take your guns away. It's just to try to keep your kids from killing themselves or anyone else.

    Doctors receive absolutely no training about firearm safety, mechanics, or tactics in medical school or residency. They are completely unqualified by their training to advise anyone about guns.
    Doctors also aren't experts on car seats either, but experts craft nice, neat little fliers that provide valuable information for parents, and it would work the same way with gun storage safety if regressive fucks would pull their head out of their asses and drop their ridiculously blinding pro-gun bias.
    You'd trust learning how to properly put your child's car seat in you vehicle, and that they're properly buckled up in said seat from a neat little flier?

    https://saferide4kids.com/blog/who-do-i-talk-to-about-car-seat-information/
  • rgambs
    rgambs Posts: 13,576
    EM194007 said:

    rgambs said:

    EM194007 said:

    oftenreading said:

    Aaarrgghh.

    The information is not for CPS. It's not for the police. It's not to take your guns away. It's just to try to keep your kids from killing themselves or anyone else.

    Doctors receive absolutely no training about firearm safety, mechanics, or tactics in medical school or residency. They are completely unqualified by their training to advise anyone about guns.
    Doctors also aren't experts on car seats either, but experts craft nice, neat little fliers that provide valuable information for parents, and it would work the same way with gun storage safety if regressive fucks would pull their head out of their asses and drop their ridiculously blinding pro-gun bias.
    You'd trust learning how to properly put your child's car seat in you vehicle, and that they're properly buckled up in said seat from a neat little flier?

    https://saferide4kids.com/blog/who-do-i-talk-to-about-car-seat-information/
    Yes, like most people, I would. Despite what this link claims, standards for child safety are pretty standard, go figure, and a neat little flier sums it up pretty nicely.
    NOBODY even knows that a CPS tech exists, and the people who promote them (like this website) are the only people who believe they are necessary.
    Nice use of Google to quickly support your claim lol
    Monkey Driven, Call this Living?
  • EM194007
    EM194007 Posts: 2,827
    oftenreading said:

    PJPOWER said:

    EM194007 said:

    oftenreading said:

    Aaarrgghh.

    The information is not for CPS. It's not for the police. It's not to take your guns away. It's just to try to keep your kids from killing themselves or anyone else.

    Doctors receive absolutely no training about firearm safety, mechanics, or tactics in medical school or residency. They are completely unqualified by their training to advise anyone about guns.
    Exactly, and it is probably mostly for CYA purposes. When I was a counselor, we were trained to ask people about access to firearms, knives, razor blades, etc when assessing a suicidal or homicidal client that was in crisis to determine risk factors. But, once again, anyone can say anything and you have the option to choose what you say if you are concerned with how the information is used or where it goes. It could be a random sample for statistical purposes, which would make a little sense. Just do not divulge if you are concerned. It's not like they are hooking people up to polygraphs.
    Back to your point, though, they are not trained to teach anyone about firearm safety and that would be outside of their medical practice...which invites lawsuits.
    1. Sucks that you believe that doctors or other health professionals would only ask about health related issues to cover their asses. When you were a counselor, did you only ask about firearms, knives and razor blades to CYA, or because you cared about your clients and wanted to help them?
    2. No one is saying that they are supposed to "teach anyone about firearm safety" in any detail. It's about raising the issue and hence raising awareness. How many times do we see newspaper articles about a toddler or preschooler finding a gun and shooting their sibling, or taking a gun out of mom's purse and shooting her at the grocery store? It's about raising awareness of the capacity of kids to do this, and the fact that they will look and they will touch, even when you've told them not to. That's the nature of child development, but a lot of parents aren't aware.
    3. Promoting safety and avoiding injury is well within medical practice. Whyever would you think it isn't? And I find it interesting that generally the public screams and complains about doctors being "pillpushers" and demands that they take a broader, more preventive approach, but when they do people scream and complain that it's outside their scope of practice.
    4. Yes, doctors get training on issues related to gun safety, as they relate to health.
    5. A lawsuit could just as easily, and probably more easily, happen if the doctor didn't ask about guns in the home and a child was killed, particularly in your ridiculously litigious culture. Many, many things can lead to a lawsuit. That doesn't make it right to not do it.

    You don't rely on a Doctor. You go take a Firearm Safety Course, that is conducted by a trained person in Firearm Safety. Everyone who wants to own a gun should have to take a Firearm Safety Class, IMO.
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    EM194007 said:

    oftenreading said:

    PJPOWER said:

    EM194007 said:

    oftenreading said:

    Aaarrgghh.

    The information is not for CPS. It's not for the police. It's not to take your guns away. It's just to try to keep your kids from killing themselves or anyone else.

    Doctors receive absolutely no training about firearm safety, mechanics, or tactics in medical school or residency. They are completely unqualified by their training to advise anyone about guns.
    Exactly, and it is probably mostly for CYA purposes. When I was a counselor, we were trained to ask people about access to firearms, knives, razor blades, etc when assessing a suicidal or homicidal client that was in crisis to determine risk factors. But, once again, anyone can say anything and you have the option to choose what you say if you are concerned with how the information is used or where it goes. It could be a random sample for statistical purposes, which would make a little sense. Just do not divulge if you are concerned. It's not like they are hooking people up to polygraphs.
    Back to your point, though, they are not trained to teach anyone about firearm safety and that would be outside of their medical practice...which invites lawsuits.
    1. Sucks that you believe that doctors or other health professionals would only ask about health related issues to cover their asses. When you were a counselor, did you only ask about firearms, knives and razor blades to CYA, or because you cared about your clients and wanted to help them?
    2. No one is saying that they are supposed to "teach anyone about firearm safety" in any detail. It's about raising the issue and hence raising awareness. How many times do we see newspaper articles about a toddler or preschooler finding a gun and shooting their sibling, or taking a gun out of mom's purse and shooting her at the grocery store? It's about raising awareness of the capacity of kids to do this, and the fact that they will look and they will touch, even when you've told them not to. That's the nature of child development, but a lot of parents aren't aware.
    3. Promoting safety and avoiding injury is well within medical practice. Whyever would you think it isn't? And I find it interesting that generally the public screams and complains about doctors being "pillpushers" and demands that they take a broader, more preventive approach, but when they do people scream and complain that it's outside their scope of practice.
    4. Yes, doctors get training on issues related to gun safety, as they relate to health.
    5. A lawsuit could just as easily, and probably more easily, happen if the doctor didn't ask about guns in the home and a child was killed, particularly in your ridiculously litigious culture. Many, many things can lead to a lawsuit. That doesn't make it right to not do it.

    You don't rely on a Doctor. You go take a Firearm Safety Course, that is conducted by a trained person in Firearm Safety. Everyone who wants to own a gun should have to take a Firearm Safety Class, IMO.
    Fine. I certainly wouldn't argue against that. But since this isn't currently required, and since the pro-gun folks are so resistant to any additional requirements or restrictions, let's live in the world as it is and try to educate where we can to reduce firearm related deaths.
    my small self... like a book amongst the many on a shelf
  • mace1229
    mace1229 Posts: 9,905
    This topic was brought up as an insult against those gun owners who feel uncomfortable answering that question. They feel uncomfortable because the truth is they don't do anything with that information that would reduce the risk of a shooting. Simply asking and checking a box isn't going to do anything.
    While other, larger factors are completely ignored. Why don't they ask mom if she has a live-in boyfriend? Moms with a live-in BF are 10 times as likely to have their children molested than a house with 2 parents. Why don't they ask that and check that box?
    I answer honestly because I don't care, but it easy for me to see how some don't want to answer and see it has the anti-gun pushed by their agenda.
    If I am wrong please tell how how simply just asking is going to prevent anything? I never get asked about training, safety practices or anything when I say there are guns in the home.
  • PJPOWER
    PJPOWER Posts: 6,499
    I do not have a degree in law...but this dude does
    https://www.prageru.com/courses/political-science/gun-ownership-right
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