Good Cop Thread

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  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,658
    Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

    There are countless threads with blanket statements condemning cops and appealing to those defending the profession to 'wake up and see the problem' (as if this was a indeed a profound problem worthy of the highest level of concern).

    You're right, TBU, mostly anyway. It's too easy to misconstrue words here. If it were up to me, I'd close all the cop thread and just have one. Same with gun thread- just one. Any major topic that is not specific. One thread, done.

    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni











  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    Thirty there are plenty in other side ready to defend bad cops as well.

    Also feel we have given them to much latitude at times and camera phones big help.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    callen said:

    Thirty there are plenty in other side ready to defend bad cops as well.

    Also feel we have given them to much latitude at times and camera phones big help.

    It depends on what you have established as a bad cop.

    For example, many felt the cop in the Brown incident was not a bad cop and defended him. The cop that shot the offender in the back after he ran from the pullover (and stole the cop's taser, used it on him, and wrestled with him on two separate occasions) was not viewed as a poor officer either by many. Do you mean these cases?

    Although I could be wrong, I can't recall anyone defending the idiot that shot Tamir Rice. The cops that beat Kelly Thomas had no defenders as well.

    There have been some clear cut cases where some cops are simply indefensible. There have been others that have prompted debate. Having been a participant in many of these debates, it is my feel that some on here are capable of acknowledging good and bad based on the circumstances of the incident. There are others that see police violence as bad no matter what.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    Yeah shooting guy in back would be one. But not talking specifics and or only on this board.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • dignin
    dignin Posts: 9,478
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOTLP9rDiN4
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,658
    dignin said:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOTLP9rDiN4

    Well done U.K. (I assume) police.

    This article goes well with that video:

    http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/police-use-of-force-white-house-told-us-must-learn-from-uk#sthash.NkjWSgF5.dpuf

    Cambridge criminologist tells White House task force that translating UK models of policing to US is the best hope in a generation for tackling dangerous rates of ‘justifiable’ homicides committed by US police, and the resultant haemorrhaging of police legitimacy across the nation.

    As both a criminologist and a US citizen, it is clear to me that fundamental changes in our structures of policing are needed
    Lawrence Sherman

    One of the world’s leading criminologists has told the Presidential task force on 21st century policing that the United States needs to look to the policing policies and practices of the United Kingdom in order to significantly reduce the levels of deadly force used by and against US police.

    Cambridge Professor Lawrence Sherman said that the professional policing structures in England and Wales, developed since 1856, provide the best possible model for a transition to US policy at a state level, where legal powers of policing lie for most US crimes.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni











  • rr165892
    rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    edited July 2015
    Brian and Dig,although this had a non violent ending.This guy should have been shot when he advanced wielding the knife.At very least tazed.If the police in UK don't carry guns.

    But our wackos here have to many guns for this approach.If this guy was in the states all 3 officers woulda filled him with bullets and justified in doing so.
  • dignin
    dignin Posts: 9,478
    rr165892 said:

    Brian and Dig,although this had a non violent ending.This guy should have been shot when he advanced wielding the knife.At very least tazed.If the police in UK don't carry guns.

    But our wackos here have to many guns for this approach.If this guy was in the states all 3 officers woulda filled him with bullets and justified in doing so.

    How can you argue with the results rr? No one was killed or seriously injured. The threat was subdued. I think this speaks to the excellent training of the officers. Excellent police work all around.

    I agree, most likely if this was in the states the guy would have been wasted. But I think that speaks to the bad training and pervasive gun violence in the the US.

    Brians article is a perfect fit for the situation in the video.

  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,658
    rr165892 said:

    Brian and Dig,although this had a non violent ending.This guy should have been shot when he advanced wielding the knife.At very least tazed.If the police in UK don't carry guns.

    But our wackos here have to many guns for this approach.If this guy was in the states all 3 officers woulda filled him with bullets and justified in doing so.

    rr, I strongly disagree. Did you read the article I linked above?

    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni











  • rr165892
    rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    edited July 2015
    Responding to both of you.
    Yes I did.And I think working toward more non violent solutions is a good thing,but like the film above ,what if all the backpedalling and Shouted directives from the officers failed to stop this agitated individual?Is it worth risking the life of an officer because some crazy fuck with a knife you see in a horror flick is charging?
    If the perp listens to orders to begin with then no shooting needs to happen.When the individual decides to charge that was his desciscion and consequences are on him,not the cops.He is a threat,and what happens the next time he does this?

    Slippery slope .Where do you draw the line.Certainly you don't feel every situation can be handled without violence? That would be living in a fantasy world.
    Post edited by rr165892 on
  • dignin
    dignin Posts: 9,478
    rr165892 said:

    Responding to both of you.
    Yes I did.And I think working toward more non violent solutions is a good thing,but like the film above ,what if all the backpedalling and Shouted directives from the officers failed to stop this agitated individual?Is it worth risking the life of an officer because some crazy fuck with a knife you see in a horror flick is charging?
    If the perp listens to orders to begin with then no shooting needs to happen.When the individual decides to charge that was his desciscion and consequences are on him,not the cops.He is a threat,and what happens the next time he does this?

    Slippery slope .Where do you draw the line.Certainly you don't feel every situation can be handled without violence? That would be living in a fantasy world.

    They did respond with violence rr, it looked like the female officer sprayed him with pepper spray at the beginning of the video and they beat him with their billy clubs to subdue him.

    The officers assumed the risk of their profession when they took the job. Coming in contact with knife wielding crazies is part of their job. And they dealt with the situation admirably.

    And I'm sure the officers felt much better about what they did that day then if they had shot a killed that man. I'm sure very few people want to go home from work knowing they had killed someone. Whether you think he deserved it or not.
  • rr165892
    rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    I agree with your last sentence 100%.
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,333
    http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/55bb876be4b0d4f33a026627?
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  • rr165892
    rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    Was that a white cop helping a black kid? According to some that would never happen.
    This kinda thing happens in spades everyday.Glad to see it getting some pub.
  • mickeyrat
    mickeyrat Posts: 44,333
    tried to find the link for the blurb i saw on adbook that had a distraught black lady who had just found out her sister had died by phone call while driving. she pulled over. ended up calling 911. The officer who responded sat with her in her car and consoled her until another sister arrived on scene. IIRC it said he was with her about an hour.
    _____________________________________SIGNATURE________________________________________________

    Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
    you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
    memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
    another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    dignin said:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOTLP9rDiN4

    You know what? The police definitely handled the situation well, but placed themselves at great risk doing so. This just as easily could have ended very badly for one of the officers.

    It's great this ended as it did, but I would have been okay with them shooting him as he neared the one officer gashing away.

    Do people seriously expect great degrees of patience on the part of law enforcement when facing knife wielding maniacs? Instead, why don't we expect people to not be knife wielding maniacs?
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,658
    Did anyone read the article I linked above? This one?

    http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/police-use-of-force-white-house-told-us-must-learn-from-uk#sthash.NkjWSgF5.dpuf
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni











  • Thirty Bills Unpaid
    Thirty Bills Unpaid Posts: 16,881
    brianlux said:

    Did anyone read the article I linked above? This one?

    http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/police-use-of-force-white-house-told-us-must-learn-from-uk#sthash.NkjWSgF5.dpuf

    I like this:

    He believes that individual states should sign up to such England-Wales policies as a Chief Inspector of Constabulary, an independent police complaints commission, and much larger minimum staffing sizes for police forces, which – combined with national initiatives such as the England-Wales register of dismissed officers – would boost policing legitimacy and help to bring down the high annual rates of so-called ‘justifiable’ homicide committed by US police.

    It makes perfect sense to have an independent agency handle complaints.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • oftenreading
    oftenreading Victoria, BC Posts: 12,856
    brianlux said:

    Did anyone read the article I linked above? This one?

    http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/police-use-of-force-white-house-told-us-must-learn-from-uk#sthash.NkjWSgF5.dpuf

    I just read it brian - thought provoking reading.

    Some of the reactions to the post of the video and article show exactly the problem that the US is facing, which is a normalization of the use of deadly force on suspects routinely and early on in the encounter. The comment "This guy should have been shot" epitomizes this attitude, because clearly he didn't have to be shot. All other developed countries deal with violent criminals as well; the US is not somehow special in this regard. What is different is how they deal with them. There are multiple factors but a big one is the underlying assumption that shooting the suspect is a last resort, not a first resort. Of course, there is systemic support with appropriate training and management.

    TBU - yes, we expect patience and restraint on the part of police. That's part of their job, just like dealing with "knife wielding maniacs" is part of their job. We can hope that there would be fewer violent people but the essence of policing is that they are the people who deal with crime and criminal behaviour so it shouldn't be a surprise that they will be the ones called to do this. It's not like anyone becomes a police officer by accident; there is a lengthy application, screening and training process involved.
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  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,658
    Thanks for checking it out, Thirty and Often.

    We in the U.S. seem to have this innate belief that "our way is the right way". I wonder, are we too proud to learn important lessons about issues that have far reaching consequences from other nations? It sure seems to me we could learn a lot about law enforcement from the British. And this is nothing new- I've heard this idea a number of time over (literally) decades.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni











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