brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,732
Just to clear up some confusion (I wasn't sure either):
"There is no breed with the name “Pit Bull.” When that term is used, it’s usually referring to either American Staffordshire Terriers or American Pit Bull Terriers, and sometimes to the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, a British breed. It’s also a label given to any dog who resembles those breeds, even if that dog is a Lab mix and has little or no “pit bull” in his background." http://www.vetstreet.com/dogs/american-staffordshire-terrier-american-pit-bull-terrier
A conscientious dog owner will know if and when letting a dog off leash is ok. In some cases, there's no doubt, like dog parks that are designated off-leash. But other places like most wilderness trails, not ok . Most parks- city, state and national, not ok unless otherwise stated. But beyond the legality, common sense should rule and a dog owner should know their animal well enough to know when it's ok.
We used a leash with our yellow lab that could be run out or reigned in. It gave her plenty of roaming room and us plenty of control.
"Pit bulls", in my opinion, never OK to be off leash. If for no other reason, because most people are wary of them. Have they gotten a bad rap? Maybe so, but blame the irresponsible owners. In any case, the fact is, many people are uncomfortable with "pit bulls" and if a person really has to have this bread (it's not like there aren't hundreds of other choices) then due to the legitimate concerns due to irresponsible owners (and possible unpredictable nature of the breed though I can't prove this), they would be wise to keep them on leash always.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Damn, Thirty, that sucks! Very sorry to hear about this. I agree with PJ_Soul- the lady that owns the dog that bit you needs to be held accountable.
Also, this fascination with American pit bull Terriers (a.k.a. "pit bulls") needs to end. I've known some very sweet "pit bulls" but they've gotten to be a fad and if not properly trained they can be dangerous. When I see one with it's owner I immediately look at the owner to asses the situation. Too many times I am left feeling wary.
They can be dangerous when they are properly trained too.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
The dog wasn't going to be on a leash in this setting- its out of town and in the mountain. If it had been on a leash, it likely wouldn't have gotten me; but that's not the issue in this situation.
We shouldn't come across dogs that need to be leashed or they will attack you.
The dog was out of its mind and consumed with whatever was in its simple f**king dog mind about me that motivated the filthy animal to bite me. I never startled the pair... it had seen me coming and was running away from its owner up the trail towards me. I had to slow down because it was running directly at me- to the point of stopping (where it began investigating my leg with its jaws and teeth).
I'm not surprised and neither were my friends. We all agreed the dog and the breed of the dog are a nemesis to society. For every proud pitbull owner (like this one prior to yesterday)... there's a child or a mountain biker bitten.
As I've said earlier... all the times we've biked... we've come across several dogs and even bears. None have taken the slightest interest in us. This f**king dog was completely different than the other animals though. Dangerous and needs to go. Sorry, but its the truth. People should not be in positions to be wary of dogs. Dogs should be respectful of people you know... the things that place food in their bowls.
I hike in the mountains all the time and my dogs stay on leash, it's for their safety as well as the wildlife and people we may come across. The rest of your contribution is just an angry rant (justified of course).
You don't let your dogs run, RG?
The rest of my post might be an angry rant... but there's some truth in there. In particular, I don't want a society where dangerous- even potentially dangerous dogs- trump the safety and well being of people minding their own business.
Outside of prisons... we don't need dogs that require a leash to prevent them from chewing on people. WTF is that?
Kind of like guns, RG. Everyone's a responsible owner until their shit dog goes and bites someone: "Oh my Gawd. I'm sooo sorry. I don't know what came over her?"
Yah. Go have fun with Cookie now. Make sure she doesn't bite some kids face off riding a big wheel by your house.
I can't say I never let them run, sometimes I do, but not for long and only when we are in serious wilderness territory (at least a days hike from trailhead). They get to run in the woods at my house but I live in the serious boonies, and they get to run when I run with them. They are friendly, but you never know what will happen so it's better safe than sorry. Any dog is capable of chewing on someone, that's why they should all be leashed, just like guns should be locked away properly.
I don't feel like any dog that has to be leashed to keep them from attacking people should be kept as pets at all. They shouldn't be near where any people are, ever. I'm thinking about that little kid who was killed by a neighbor's pit bull a couple of months ago. Yeah, the dog was in a fenced yard... but the kid went into the yard and got killed anyway. Shit happens. Accidents happen. Kid climb fences. Dogs escape yards. Owners drop leashes or decide it's okay to let them off here, where no one is... and then someone comes along.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,732
Damn, Thirty, that sucks! Very sorry to hear about this. I agree with PJ_Soul- the lady that owns the dog that bit you needs to be held accountable.
Also, this fascination with American pit bull Terriers (a.k.a. "pit bulls") needs to end. I've known some very sweet "pit bulls" but they've gotten to be a fad and if not properly trained they can be dangerous. When I see one with it's owner I immediately look at the owner to asses the situation. Too many times I am left feeling wary.
They can be dangerous when they are properly trained too.
That's my opinion as well. People who have or are favorable to "pit bulls" will argue endlessly in their favor- Celia included (but I don't need to worry about that since our cat Annie rules the roost and does not like dogs). What I don't understand is that, knowing these dogs have this history...
"Today’s pit bull is a descendant of the original English bull-baiting dog—a dog that was bred to bite and hold bulls, bears and other large animals around the face and head. When baiting large animals was outlawed in the 1800s, people turned instead to fighting their dogs against each other." https://www.aspca.org/about-us/aspca-policy-and-position-statements/position-statement-pit-bulls
...why someone would opt for this bread rather one of many other generally gentler breeds. My hunch is that "pit bull" owners are either people who are fearful (for which I can empathize) and want a dog that will protect them (not that other breads won't) or just like to be appear to be tough or mean (I've seen it, not a fan.) It just seems like a bad choice to me with so many other options.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
The dog wasn't going to be on a leash in this setting- its out of town and in the mountain. If it had been on a leash, it likely wouldn't have gotten me; but that's not the issue in this situation.
We shouldn't come across dogs that need to be leashed or they will attack you.
The dog was out of its mind and consumed with whatever was in its simple f**king dog mind about me that motivated the filthy animal to bite me. I never startled the pair... it had seen me coming and was running away from its owner up the trail towards me. I had to slow down because it was running directly at me- to the point of stopping (where it began investigating my leg with its jaws and teeth).
I'm not surprised and neither were my friends. We all agreed the dog and the breed of the dog are a nemesis to society. For every proud pitbull owner (like this one prior to yesterday)... there's a child or a mountain biker bitten.
As I've said earlier... all the times we've biked... we've come across several dogs and even bears. None have taken the slightest interest in us. This f**king dog was completely different than the other animals though. Dangerous and needs to go. Sorry, but its the truth. People should not be in positions to be wary of dogs. Dogs should be respectful of people you know... the things that place food in their bowls.
I hike in the mountains all the time and my dogs stay on leash, it's for their safety as well as the wildlife and people we may come across. The rest of your contribution is just an angry rant (justified of course).
You don't let your dogs run, RG?
The rest of my post might be an angry rant... but there's some truth in there. In particular, I don't want a society where dangerous- even potentially dangerous dogs- trump the safety and well being of people minding their own business.
Outside of prisons... we don't need dogs that require a leash to prevent them from chewing on people. WTF is that?
Kind of like guns, RG. Everyone's a responsible owner until their shit dog goes and bites someone: "Oh my Gawd. I'm sooo sorry. I don't know what came over her?"
Yah. Go have fun with Cookie now. Make sure she doesn't bite some kids face off riding a big wheel by your house.
I can't say I never let them run, sometimes I do, but not for long and only when we are in serious wilderness territory (at least a days hike from trailhead). They get to run in the woods at my house but I live in the serious boonies, and they get to run when I run with them. They are friendly, but you never know what will happen so it's better safe than sorry. Any dog is capable of chewing on someone, that's why they should all be leashed, just like guns should be locked away properly.
I don't feel like any dog that has to be leashed to keep them from attacking people should be kept as pets at all. They shouldn't be near where any people are, ever. I'm thinking about that little kid who was killed by a neighbor's pit bull a couple of months ago. Yeah, the dog was in a fenced yard... but the kid went into the yard and got killed anyway. Shit happens. Accidents happen. Kid climb fences. Dogs escape yards. Owners drop leashes or decide it's okay to let them off here, where no one is... and then someone comes along.
If that's the case, then you feel that dogs should not be kept as pets at all.
^^^ No, that's not what I'm saying at all (obviously). I mean specifically. If someone specifically feels like they have to leash a dog to keep it from attacking people, it shouldn't be kept where people are (muzzling is an option too, but I think that is cruel to the dog, so shouldn't be done either). I think that is just common sense.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
^^^ No, that's not what I'm saying at all (obviously). I mean specifically. If someone specifically feels like they have to leash a dog to keep it from attacking people, it shouldn't be kept where people are (muzzling is an option too, but I think that is cruel to the dog, so shouldn't be done either). I think that is just common sense.
I see what you mean by specifically, I sort of thought you were talking about my dogs since you quoted me, but I should have given you more benefit of doubt.
I think that responsible dog owners should always keep their pets leashed. Any dog can attack or bite under the right (wrong) circumstances, and some people are simply afraid of dogs. It is common courtesy and decency, like not blowing smoke in someone's face. I don't think my dogs would ever attack someone, but I am not taking the chance. It's also important for their safety, unleashed dogs get hit by cars, and attacked by other dogs, bears, possibly humans. I have heard stories of dogs "chasing bears off" only to have the bear return in full attack mode when the dog pushes it too far or nears the den.
I think it's cruel to always keep a dog leashed. They need to run around free IMO. I don't know anyone who would consider keeping their dog on leash all the time. Surely you let your dog run off-leash somewhere?? I thought that's what dog parks and dog friendly beaches and stuff are for??
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I think it's cruel to always keep a dog leashed. They need to run around free IMO. I don't know anyone who would consider keeping their dog on leash all the time. Surely you let your dog run off-leash somewhere?? I thought that's what dog parks and dog friendly beaches and stuff are for??
I think it's a bit cruel to have an athletic breed dog in urban areas at all, so I understand what you mean. When I speak of being on leash, I mean in public and public lands. Where I live, there are more coyotes than dogs, probably more coyotes than people lol. Certainly more deer and turkey! My neighbors (only 2 of them) know my dogs and my dogs know them. My acreage has road frontage which they do not cross, woods on all sides, and the back is uninhabited for many miles. They run free plenty lol
Let's say you let your dogs off the leash for the moment- as you say you do on occasion- and one of them attacks a guy riding his mountain bike (single bite like mine).
You said you keep them on the leash partially for the protection of others when out in the woods. Would you be completely surprised? What happens next? How does a responsible dog owner respond? How should Cookie's owner respond?
Let's say you let your dogs off the leash for the moment- as you say you do on occasion- and one of them attacks a guy riding his mountain bike (single bite like mine).
You said you keep them on the leash partially for the protection of others when out in the woods. Would you be completely surprised? What happens next? How does a responsible dog owner respond? How should Cookie's owner respond?
Don't mind being on the spot, that's what we are here for!
I know this is a hypothetical situation and the point is my response to it and not the circumstances leading to it. I do want to start by saying that it is very highly unlikely, as I don't often come across people that deep into the wilds, and bikes literally can't go where my family goes lol But let's assume they slip loose or yank free and get a biker or hiker. Would I be surprised? Yes surprised, not shocked though. I take precautions because I know anything can happen, but I don't expect it to happen. I guess that's how safety works in general. The response depends on what the victim wants. If the victim is understanding, a monetary transfer to cover medical expenses and a decent addition for the trouble and trauma. If the victim wants to press charges, I should be held criminally responsible for assault to whatever degree the dog attacks. Part of that would of course cover the payment aspect.
Let's say you let your dogs off the leash for the moment- as you say you do on occasion- and one of them attacks a guy riding his mountain bike (single bite like mine).
You said you keep them on the leash partially for the protection of others when out in the woods. Would you be completely surprised? What happens next? How does a responsible dog owner respond? How should Cookie's owner respond?
Don't mind being on the spot, that's what we are here for!
I know this is a hypothetical situation and the point is my response to it and not the circumstances leading to it. I do want to start by saying that it is very highly unlikely, as I don't often come across people that deep into the wilds, and bikes literally can't go where my family goes lol But let's assume they slip loose or yank free and get a biker or hiker. Would I be surprised? Yes surprised, not shocked though. I take precautions because I know anything can happen, but I don't expect it to happen. I guess that's how safety works in general. The response depends on what the victim wants. If the victim is understanding, a monetary transfer to cover medical expenses and a decent addition for the trouble and trauma. If the victim wants to press charges, I should be held criminally responsible for assault to whatever degree the dog attacks. Part of that would of course cover the payment aspect.
Wow.
US mentality at work here. It's interesting you are coming at this from a compensation angle. I was wondering what you would do with the dog knowing it's capacity to attack a person? What precautions do you take knowing your dog likes people's legs? You're not suggesting people pay for their dog's bites like speeding tickets are you?
After getting bit and with the dog restrained... I just wanted to go. I didn't want the beast breaking free and having another go at me. Exchanging information out in the bush didn't even enter my mind. It wouldn't have mattered anyways- she could have told me she was Minnie Mouse. How would I know differently?
* I'm not mocking your response- it's appreciated. It's just not what I expected.
Let's say you let your dogs off the leash for the moment- as you say you do on occasion- and one of them attacks a guy riding his mountain bike (single bite like mine).
You said you keep them on the leash partially for the protection of others when out in the woods. Would you be completely surprised? What happens next? How does a responsible dog owner respond? How should Cookie's owner respond?
Don't mind being on the spot, that's what we are here for!
I know this is a hypothetical situation and the point is my response to it and not the circumstances leading to it. I do want to start by saying that it is very highly unlikely, as I don't often come across people that deep into the wilds, and bikes literally can't go where my family goes lol But let's assume they slip loose or yank free and get a biker or hiker. Would I be surprised? Yes surprised, not shocked though. I take precautions because I know anything can happen, but I don't expect it to happen. I guess that's how safety works in general. The response depends on what the victim wants. If the victim is understanding, a monetary transfer to cover medical expenses and a decent addition for the trouble and trauma. If the victim wants to press charges, I should be held criminally responsible for assault to whatever degree the dog attacks. Part of that would of course cover the payment aspect.
Wow.
US mentality at work here. It's interesting you are coming at this from a compensation angle. I was wondering what you would do with the dog knowing it's capacity to attack a person? What precautions do you take knowing your dog likes people's legs? You're not suggesting people pay for their dog's bites like speeding tickets are you?
After getting bit and with the dog restrained... I just wanted to go. I didn't want the beast breaking free and having another go at me. Exchanging information out in the bush didn't even enter my mind. It wouldn't have mattered anyways- she could have told me she was Minnie Mouse. How would I know differently?
* I'm not mocking your response- it's appreciated. It's just not what I expected.
I am not suggesting it be handled like a speeding ticket, I am suggesting it be handled like an injury that occurs from negligence. If a biker slammed into you and injured you, what would the outcome be? How do you handle a person who has shown the capacity to injure others? What do you think the responsibility should be? Do you think the animal should be put down for biting your leg?
I thought you meant what do I do in regards to the victim, not the dog. The dog would need to be muzzled from there on out.
I should have been clearer.
I left the woman to her own devices. I have no idea what she will do with the dog. For my part... I cussed and pissed and moaned a bit. I was wondering how a dog owner responds?
I'm assuming she'd go home, tell her husband/boyfriend, and they'd dismiss it as 'stupid mountain bikers' fault. Then they'd baby-talk to Cookie and let it lick their faces fresh after cleaning its asshole (with any luck on my part anyways!).
Yes. I'm still mad.
"My brain's a good brain!"
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hedonist
standing on the edge of forever Posts: 24,524
I'm sorry for laughing at your third paragraph, Thirty.
I thought you meant what do I do in regards to the victim, not the dog. The dog would need to be muzzled from there on out.
I would suggest finding a pit bull sanctuary for it to go live at. I know that muzzling is generally considered an acceptable way to deal with this kind of thing, but I don't agree with muzzling. Locking the dog's mouth closed so that it can't properly vocalize or even pant properly doesn't seem humane to me.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I thought you meant what do I do in regards to the victim, not the dog. The dog would need to be muzzled from there on out.
I would suggest finding a pit bull sanctuary for it to go live at. I know that muzzling is generally considered an acceptable way to deal with this kind of thing, but I don't agree with muzzling. Locking the dog's mouth closed so that it can't properly vocalize or even pant properly doesn't seem humane to me.
I'm not sure that isolating it from it's pack is particularly humane either. A muzzle now and then vs. never seeing your family again. Doesn't sound like an even balance to me.
I thought you meant what do I do in regards to the victim, not the dog. The dog would need to be muzzled from there on out.
I would suggest finding a pit bull sanctuary for it to go live at. I know that muzzling is generally considered an acceptable way to deal with this kind of thing, but I don't agree with muzzling. Locking the dog's mouth closed so that it can't properly vocalize or even pant properly doesn't seem humane to me.
I'm not sure that isolating it from it's pack is particularly humane either. A muzzle now and then vs. never seeing your family again. Doesn't sound like an even balance to me.
Isolating it from its pack? You mean taking it from its owners? I don't think that would be cruel. It would be an adjustment, but I don't think that is unreasonable when the dog is a danger to other people. Remember, it's not a human being, and not equivalent to removing a child from its parents (not for the dog, anyway). The dogs are very happy and around other dogs at the pit bull sanctuaries.... and would actually provide it with a real pack, if that is what's concerning you.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I thought you meant what do I do in regards to the victim, not the dog. The dog would need to be muzzled from there on out.
I would suggest finding a pit bull sanctuary for it to go live at. I know that muzzling is generally considered an acceptable way to deal with this kind of thing, but I don't agree with muzzling. Locking the dog's mouth closed so that it can't properly vocalize or even pant properly doesn't seem humane to me.
I'm not sure that isolating it from it's pack is particularly humane either. A muzzle now and then vs. never seeing your family again. Doesn't sound like an even balance to me.
Isolating it from its pack? You mean taking it from its owners? I don't think that would be cruel. It would be an adjustment, but I don't think that is unreasonable when the dog is a danger to other people. Remember, it's not a human being, and not equivalent to removing a child from its parents (not for the dog, anyway). The dogs are very happy and around other dogs at the pit bull sanctuaries.... and would actually provide it with a real pack, if that is what's concerning you.
Owners is a human concept, to a dog it is a pack. Have you ever had a dog that was a close companion? It is not equivalent to taking a child from parents, but it is adjacent. Sure, they can be happy, just like kids removed can be, but they also will always miss their family. Dangers can be controlled, even mitigated without splitting up a family. If it is an attack more severe than a bite of a stranger, those more drastic solutions need to be taken.
I thought you meant what do I do in regards to the victim, not the dog. The dog would need to be muzzled from there on out.
I would suggest finding a pit bull sanctuary for it to go live at. I know that muzzling is generally considered an acceptable way to deal with this kind of thing, but I don't agree with muzzling. Locking the dog's mouth closed so that it can't properly vocalize or even pant properly doesn't seem humane to me.
I'm not sure that isolating it from it's pack is particularly humane either. A muzzle now and then vs. never seeing your family again. Doesn't sound like an even balance to me.
Isolating it from its pack? You mean taking it from its owners? I don't think that would be cruel. It would be an adjustment, but I don't think that is unreasonable when the dog is a danger to other people. Remember, it's not a human being, and not equivalent to removing a child from its parents (not for the dog, anyway). The dogs are very happy and around other dogs at the pit bull sanctuaries.... and would actually provide it with a real pack, if that is what's concerning you.
Owners is a human concept, to a dog it is a pack. Have you ever had a dog that was a close companion? It is not equivalent to taking a child from parents, but it is adjacent. Sure, they can be happy, just like kids removed can be, but they also will always miss their family. Dangers can be controlled, even mitigated without splitting up a family. If it is an attack more severe than a bite of a stranger, those more drastic solutions need to be taken.
That's fine (and not necessarily true. I know there are loads of theories about animals and the nature of their relationships with people, and as far as I know, none of those theories can be proven - they're really just opinions. Until animals can actually tell us what's going on there, I'm not really going to believe much of anything either way). But yes, I fully acknowledge and appreciate the bond between human and dog. But we're talking about the safety of people, which trumps what you're talking about (and I still do not consider it even adjacent to removing a child from parents, sorry. I LOVE dogs, but I just don't do that human child/dog comparison thing). And yes, I do think a sanctuary would be better than muzzling even though removing a dog from its owner is hard. We're talking about pit bulls who have attacked people here. Perspective.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Just talked to my mom who left her dog for two weeks. Got back and the dog screamed for twenty minutes in delight. Think that's talking.
It's dog-talking. Of course dogs love their masters, I'm not saying they don't. But I'm not buying any theory about whether or not dogs consider their master their "pack". We don't know that. All we know is that perhaps some of their behaviour is similar to certain pack behaviour (of course, that doesn't take into consideration all the pack behaviour that isn't reflected) ... which really means nothing besides knowing that a dog acts a certain way. Yeah, last time I went out of town for 5 days, my cat was basically despondent while I was gone, and when I came home she was so happy she couldn't stop drooling. These huge puddles of drool everywhere, all over me.... it was adorable. But that doesn't tell me that my cat thinks I'm a cat (another actual theory that I don't accept without any evidence, and can easily come up with at least as much "evidence" to the contrary). In any case, again, when you're talking about a pit bull that has attacked a person, it's really irrelevant. We put violent people in prison right? So I think it's more than appropriate to put a violent dog in a lovely sanctuary with other dogs, where it's handled with love.... away from other people it could attack. Muzzles don't cut it IMO. They shouldn't be around other random people at all.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 40,732
I thought you meant what do I do in regards to the victim, not the dog. The dog would need to be muzzled from there on out.
I would suggest finding a pit bull sanctuary for it to go live at. I know that muzzling is generally considered an acceptable way to deal with this kind of thing, but I don't agree with muzzling. Locking the dog's mouth closed so that it can't properly vocalize or even pant properly doesn't seem humane to me.
I'm not sure that isolating it from it's pack is particularly humane either. A muzzle now and then vs. never seeing your family again. Doesn't sound like an even balance to me.
Isolating it from its pack? You mean taking it from its owners? I don't think that would be cruel. It would be an adjustment, but I don't think that is unreasonable when the dog is a danger to other people. Remember, it's not a human being, and not equivalent to removing a child from its parents (not for the dog, anyway). The dogs are very happy and around other dogs at the pit bull sanctuaries.... and would actually provide it with a real pack, if that is what's concerning you.
Owners is a human concept, to a dog it is a pack. Have you ever had a dog that was a close companion? It is not equivalent to taking a child from parents, but it is adjacent. Sure, they can be happy, just like kids removed can be, but they also will always miss their family. Dangers can be controlled, even mitigated without splitting up a family. If it is an attack more severe than a bite of a stranger, those more drastic solutions need to be taken.
Gambs, I truly appreciate your love of and concern for dogs. I've had dogs at various times in my life (not now because my tyrannical cat will not allow it) and loved them all so I understand that bond. But the thing is, when it comes to dogs biting, that really is for most people a sever attack and for some it can be traumatic. I was under the impression that if a dog bites someone, that's it, their done. I was surprised to see that the laws* are actually very lenient toward the dogs. I've been bitten before by a dog and yet no dog I've ever been in pack with (owned, LOL) has ever bitten anyone, so I tend to be pretty conservative about the issue. And for the most part, the issue I have isn't with the dog, it's with irresponsible owners. And to me part of being responsible is to have a breed that is less likely to bite. Again, this fascination with "pit bulls" I think is a bad idea.
I had a super happy/stupid mid sized dog (spaniel cross) growing up. pillar of the family. everyone loved him. we have pictures of him up in my parents' house. wouldn't hurt a fly. seriously. but he got into the garbage. got a pork chop bone. I approached him to get it so he wouldn't choke......he growled and tried to bite me like I was a stranger (and even my Dad, who was his best bud). it was intense. EVERY SINGLE ANIMAL is capable of turning on its owner, never mind a stranger. "vicious" breed or not. it all comes down to strength, as someone else said. now that I have kids, even if my wife was not allergic, I wouldn't get a dog ever.
I love dogs, don't get me wrong, but ownership-wise, I like cats. they do their own thing. they are independent. they are smart. you can leave them for a week and they can take care of themselves. they say "fuck you, I do what I want" and don't take commands and walk away showing you their asshole. I like that attitude.
I had a super happy/stupid mid sized dog (spaniel cross) growing up. pillar of the family. everyone loved him. we have pictures of him up in my parents' house. wouldn't hurt a fly. seriously. but he got into the garbage. got a pork chop bone. I approached him to get it so he wouldn't choke......he growled and tried to bite me like I was a stranger (and even my Dad, who was his best bud). it was intense. EVERY SINGLE ANIMAL is capable of turning on its owner, never mind a stranger. "vicious" breed or not. it all comes down to strength, as someone else said. now that I have kids, even if my wife was not allergic, I wouldn't get a dog ever.
I love dogs, don't get me wrong, but ownership-wise, I like cats. they do their own thing. they are independent. they are smart. you can leave them for a week and they can take care of themselves. they say "fuck you, I do what I want" and don't take commands and walk away showing you their asshole. I like that attitude.
You make a great point that nullifies the 'all breeds bite' rationalization of pitbulls and the like. Strength.
Who cares if a Yorky gets aggressive and tries to chew your leg?
* My kids needed a pet. We went the cat route for many reasons- our busy lifestyles number one. It was a great choice. I love that cat. Even when she wakes me up at 5am by standing on my head and wanting attention (and food).
, but ownership-wise, I like cats. they do their own thing. they are independent. they are smart. you can leave them for a week and they can take care of themselves. they say "fuck you, I do what I want" and don't take commands and walk away showing you their asshole. I like that attitude.
Made me think of a quote from one of the authors I read.
Comments
"There is no breed with the name “Pit Bull.” When that term is used, it’s usually referring to either American Staffordshire Terriers or American Pit Bull Terriers, and sometimes to the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, a British breed. It’s also a label given to any dog who resembles those breeds, even if that dog is a Lab mix and has little or no “pit bull” in his background."
http://www.vetstreet.com/dogs/american-staffordshire-terrier-american-pit-bull-terrier
A conscientious dog owner will know if and when letting a dog off leash is ok. In some cases, there's no doubt, like dog parks that are designated off-leash. But other places like most wilderness trails, not ok . Most parks- city, state and national, not ok unless otherwise stated. But beyond the legality, common sense should rule and a dog owner should know their animal well enough to know when it's ok.
We used a leash with our yellow lab that could be run out or reigned in. It gave her plenty of roaming room and us plenty of control.
"Pit bulls", in my opinion, never OK to be off leash. If for no other reason, because most people are wary of them. Have they gotten a bad rap? Maybe so, but blame the irresponsible owners. In any case, the fact is, many people are uncomfortable with "pit bulls" and if a person really has to have this bread (it's not like there aren't hundreds of other choices) then due to the legitimate concerns due to irresponsible owners (and possible unpredictable nature of the breed though I can't prove this), they would be wise to keep them on leash always.
"Today’s pit bull is a descendant of the original English bull-baiting dog—a dog that was bred to bite and hold bulls, bears and other large animals around the face and head. When baiting large animals was outlawed in the 1800s, people turned instead to fighting their dogs against each other." https://www.aspca.org/about-us/aspca-policy-and-position-statements/position-statement-pit-bulls
...why someone would opt for this bread rather one of many other generally gentler breeds. My hunch is that "pit bull" owners are either people who are fearful (for which I can empathize) and want a dog that will protect them (not that other breads won't) or just like to be appear to be tough or mean (I've seen it, not a fan.) It just seems like a bad choice to me with so many other options.
I think that responsible dog owners should always keep their pets leashed. Any dog can attack or bite under the right (wrong) circumstances, and some people are simply afraid of dogs. It is common courtesy and decency, like not blowing smoke in someone's face.
I don't think my dogs would ever attack someone, but I am not taking the chance. It's also important for their safety, unleashed dogs get hit by cars, and attacked by other dogs, bears, possibly humans. I have heard stories of dogs "chasing bears off" only to have the bear return in full attack mode when the dog pushes it too far or nears the den.
When I speak of being on leash, I mean in public and public lands.
Where I live, there are more coyotes than dogs, probably more coyotes than people lol. Certainly more deer and turkey! My neighbors (only 2 of them) know my dogs and my dogs know them. My acreage has road frontage which they do not cross, woods on all sides, and the back is uninhabited for many miles. They run free plenty lol
https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/1743747_1768148500077577_3605168060325823107_n.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=42c1a67b17258a95e628a3b167972a21&oe=566E8679
Let's put you on the spot for a second.
Let's say you let your dogs off the leash for the moment- as you say you do on occasion- and one of them attacks a guy riding his mountain bike (single bite like mine).
You said you keep them on the leash partially for the protection of others when out in the woods. Would you be completely surprised? What happens next? How does a responsible dog owner respond? How should Cookie's owner respond?
I know this is a hypothetical situation and the point is my response to it and not the circumstances leading to it. I do want to start by saying that it is very highly unlikely, as I don't often come across people that deep into the wilds, and bikes literally can't go where my family goes lol
But let's assume they slip loose or yank free and get a biker or hiker.
Would I be surprised? Yes surprised, not shocked though. I take precautions because I know anything can happen, but I don't expect it to happen. I guess that's how safety works in general.
The response depends on what the victim wants. If the victim is understanding, a monetary transfer to cover medical expenses and a decent addition for the trouble and trauma.
If the victim wants to press charges, I should be held criminally responsible for assault to whatever degree the dog attacks. Part of that would of course cover the payment aspect.
US mentality at work here. It's interesting you are coming at this from a compensation angle. I was wondering what you would do with the dog knowing it's capacity to attack a person? What precautions do you take knowing your dog likes people's legs? You're not suggesting people pay for their dog's bites like speeding tickets are you?
After getting bit and with the dog restrained... I just wanted to go. I didn't want the beast breaking free and having another go at me. Exchanging information out in the bush didn't even enter my mind. It wouldn't have mattered anyways- she could have told me she was Minnie Mouse. How would I know differently?
* I'm not mocking your response- it's appreciated. It's just not what I expected.
If a biker slammed into you and injured you, what would the outcome be? How do you handle a person who has shown the capacity to injure others?
What do you think the responsibility should be? Do you think the animal should be put down for biting your leg?
Not mocking either, just asking.
The dog would need to be muzzled from there on out.
I left the woman to her own devices. I have no idea what she will do with the dog. For my part... I cussed and pissed and moaned a bit. I was wondering how a dog owner responds?
I'm assuming she'd go home, tell her husband/boyfriend, and they'd dismiss it as 'stupid mountain bikers' fault. Then they'd baby-talk to Cookie and let it lick their faces fresh after cleaning its asshole (with any luck on my part anyways!).
Yes. I'm still mad.
Dr G always tells me Maxi kisses me on the forehead with his bunghole while I sleep lol
(I'd give you the big shiteating grin emoticon... but where the hell do you find them?)
* Same RG.
I know that muzzling is generally considered an acceptable way to deal with this kind of thing, but I don't agree with muzzling. Locking the dog's mouth closed so that it can't properly vocalize or even pant properly doesn't seem humane to me.
Have you ever had a dog that was a close companion? It is not equivalent to taking a child from parents, but it is adjacent. Sure, they can be happy, just like kids removed can be, but they also will always miss their family.
Dangers can be controlled, even mitigated without splitting up a family.
If it is an attack more severe than a bite of a stranger, those more drastic solutions need to be taken.
Of course dogs love their masters, I'm not saying they don't. But I'm not buying any theory about whether or not dogs consider their master their "pack". We don't know that. All we know is that perhaps some of their behaviour is similar to certain pack behaviour (of course, that doesn't take into consideration all the pack behaviour that isn't reflected) ... which really means nothing besides knowing that a dog acts a certain way.
Yeah, last time I went out of town for 5 days, my cat was basically despondent while I was gone, and when I came home she was so happy she couldn't stop drooling. These huge puddles of drool everywhere, all over me.... it was adorable. But that doesn't tell me that my cat thinks I'm a cat (another actual theory that I don't accept without any evidence, and can easily come up with at least as much "evidence" to the contrary).
In any case, again, when you're talking about a pit bull that has attacked a person, it's really irrelevant. We put violent people in prison right? So I think it's more than appropriate to put a violent dog in a lovely sanctuary with other dogs, where it's handled with love.... away from other people it could attack. Muzzles don't cut it IMO. They shouldn't be around other random people at all.
*Here are those laws:
http://dogbitelaw.com/legal-rights-of-dog-bite-victims-in-usa/what-will-happen-to-the-dog
http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/12/us/new-york-pit-bull-attacks/
Interesting that it takes a half dozen people to pry them off the man (and a hose, chain, and various other things).
I love dogs, don't get me wrong, but ownership-wise, I like cats. they do their own thing. they are independent. they are smart. you can leave them for a week and they can take care of themselves. they say "fuck you, I do what I want" and don't take commands and walk away showing you their asshole. I like that attitude.
www.headstonesband.com
Who cares if a Yorky gets aggressive and tries to chew your leg?
* My kids needed a pet. We went the cat route for many reasons- our busy lifestyles number one. It was a great choice. I love that cat. Even when she wakes me up at 5am by standing on my head and wanting attention (and food).