Here is an alternate assessment by the NYTimes. The source is the military logs released by Manning. At the end of the day, this cannot be tried in the press, it has to go to a JAG. We do ourselves and our service members a disservice by making our assessments based on one report to the next, as if journalism is unimpeachable by nature.
If you read my link I posted a few posts above you will find that the military lied to family members about the circumstances of their sons deaths. Only now are they finding out the truth that they were actually on missions to find Bergdahl. So I wouldn't put any faith in those military logs. However, I agree Bergdahl needs to go to trail so that all the truth comes out.
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I know, that's what I was countering. I don't think the families are lying but we can't understand their mindset nor can we understand if the yahoo reporter was embellishing or using more inflammatory interpretation to generate more traffic, interest, etc.
So I am reserving judgment personally but at the same time, considering there had been no interview or assessment of the incident, I'm in the camp that we always bring our boys home.
I sure feel bad for the folks in Hailey. What a mess.
This part of the article worries me though:
"The U.S. military has said the circumstances under which Bergdahl disappeared have yet to be fully investigated, although Pentagon officials have indicated Bergdahl is unlikely to face charges regardless of what the Army learns of his capture because he has suffered enough."
I don't profess to have any clue of what his life in captivity was like, but to not face charges here if he indeed deserted? No repercussions at all for those actions and the lives subsequently lost?
Agree and Reinforces my belief that he's no different than any soldier with PTSD. War sucks and this is a byproduct of putting young humans in this position. He didn't go out and slaughter the enemy as did others. He had empathy for the natives.
they won't try him because they saved him. It's complete bullshit. Being a parent of a military person, I am all for bringing home our soldiers and not leaving anyone behind. But this guy's "captivity" is in serious question as were his intentions for leaving the base in the first place. And of course Obama initially said they had to move quickly due to health reasons and then it was Oh no, the Taliban said they would kill him. Just like Benghazi.. it was about a movie but then oh no it really wasn't. But of course, Bush can be blamed for everything so just keep ignorning that Obama is flat out doing what he wants, when he wants and blaming everyone else for it. I hope all the people that voted for him got the "change" they wanted because this Country may not survive his "change"
they won't try him because they saved him. It's complete bullshit. Being a parent of a military person, I am all for bringing home our soldiers and not leaving anyone behind. But this guy's "captivity" is in serious question as were his intentions for leaving the base in the first place. And of course Obama initially said they had to move quickly due to health reasons and then it was Oh no, the Taliban said they would kill him. Just like Benghazi.. it was about a movie but then oh no it really wasn't. But of course, Bush can be blamed for everything so just keep ignorning that Obama is flat out doing what he wants, when he wants and blaming everyone else for it. I hope all the people that voted for him got the "change" they wanted because this Country may not survive his "change"
they won't try him because they saved him. It's complete bullshit. Being a parent of a military person, I am all for bringing home our soldiers and not leaving anyone behind. But this guy's "captivity" is in serious question as were his intentions for leaving the base in the first place. And of course Obama initially said they had to move quickly due to health reasons and then it was Oh no, the Taliban said they would kill him. Just like Benghazi.. it was about a movie but then oh no it really wasn't. But of course, Bush can be blamed for everything so just keep ignorning that Obama is flat out doing what he wants, when he wants and blaming everyone else for it. I hope all the people that voted for him got the "change" they wanted because this Country may not survive his "change"
Yeah, you know, America may not be a country anymore after Obama. Are we going to be Canada? Mexico? Maybe Jamaica. I would like to be Jamaican.
Question: When the War in Afghanistan 'ends'... don't we have to release all of the 'Prisoners Of War' in our captivity? Does that mean those guys being held at Camp Delta have to be released... including that Sheik Mohammad Belushi-Lokalike? I mean, the call is to hold them in military tribunals, not U.S. Courts... which defines them as Prisoners Of War, right? ... So, in order to keep them as P.O.W. in Cuba forever... doesn't that mean the War in Afghanistan has to go on... forever? Someone should ask Sen. McCain about that.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Yeah, you know, America may not be a country anymore after Obama. Are we going to be Canada? Mexico? Maybe Jamaica. I would like to be Jamaican.
I vote for the nationality that gets laid the most. Jamaica isn't too bad but I'm not sure I would be down with dreadlock hygiene for more than a few weeks. Is Italy too far away for consideration?
Or how about Australia? Learning the accent and how to throw a boomerang can't take more than a few months to master.
Question: When the War in Afghanistan 'ends'... don't we have to release all of the 'Prisoners Of War' in our captivity? Does that mean those guys being held at Camp Delta have to be released... including that Sheik Mohammad Belushi-Lokalike? I mean, the call is to hold them in military tribunals, not U.S. Courts... which defines them as Prisoners Of War, right? ... So, in order to keep them as P.O.W. in Cuba forever... doesn't that mean the War in Afghanistan has to go on... forever? Someone should ask Sen. McCain about that.
This is a difficult question to wrestle. Technically, yes, you have to release all POWs once hostilities end. It's a basic tenant of the Geneva Convention. The problem is that the Taliban is not a nation and we are not at war with Afghanistan. Under normal rules of war, yes. But my guess is that the US would actually have no intention of releasing the most dangerous of these men, particularly considering that the Taliban now has zero American prisoners.
Question: When the War in Afghanistan 'ends'... don't we have to release all of the 'Prisoners Of War' in our captivity? Does that mean those guys being held at Camp Delta have to be released... including that Sheik Mohammad Belushi-Lokalike? I mean, the call is to hold them in military tribunals, not U.S. Courts... which defines them as Prisoners Of War, right? ... So, in order to keep them as P.O.W. in Cuba forever... doesn't that mean the War in Afghanistan has to go on... forever? Someone should ask Sen. McCain about that.
This is a difficult question to wrestle. Technically, yes, you have to release all POWs once hostilities end. It's a basic tenant of the Geneva Convention. The problem is that the Taliban is not a nation and we are not at war with Afghanistan. Under normal rules of war, yes. But my guess is that the US would actually have no intention of releasing the most dangerous of these men, particularly considering that the Taliban now has zero American prisoners.
... The problem is... if we do not consider them Prisoners of War... then, why are they being held in a Prisoner Of War camp? Shouldn't they have to be tried in our court system in order for them to be convicted and imprisoned in our correctional systems? If the answer is yes... then we have already denied them a speedy trial by holding them, imprisoned, for upwards to 13 years. ... That was the point I was making back in 2003 when I said we needed to send them through our criminal courts system. So, we can find them guilty and ship them off to Pelican Bay. But, the pro-War folks were too afraid of having them on our soil. My point was, some of the people we are already holding in our prisons... murdered and ate people. To me.. you have to be pretty damn scary... to be scarier than a murderous cannibal that once roamed our streets. .. The bottom line is... We Are America. We are not Putin's Russia... we are not China... we are not the Taliban. If we allow our fears to make us more like Russia and less like America... who really won the War on Terror?
Post edited by Cosmo on
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
they won't try him because they saved him. It's complete bullshit. Being a parent of a military person, I am all for bringing home our soldiers and not leaving anyone behind. But this guy's "captivity" is in serious question as were his intentions for leaving the base in the first place. And of course Obama initially said they had to move quickly due to health reasons and then it was Oh no, the Taliban said they would kill him. Just like Benghazi.. it was about a movie but then oh no it really wasn't. But of course, Bush can be blamed for everything so just keep ignorning that Obama is flat out doing what he wants, when he wants and blaming everyone else for it. I hope all the people that voted for him got the "change" they wanted because this Country may not survive his "change"
... First off... thank your son for his service to our country... and thank you for being one the few Americans that actually carry the burden for our politically fueled wars. ... Now, If you believe this: "... this guy's "captivity" is in serious question as were his intentions for leaving the base in the first place." Don't you think it might be a good idea to get the answers to these serious questions?
You have a son serving in Afghanistan... how would you feel if he were being held accountable for actions that have not been fully verified? How would you feel is he was villified in the media and the by public that believes the media... before he even has a chance to present his side? Pretty pissed, I'm guessing. And rightfully so. I'm not saying Berdahl is not a deserter or traitor or anything because the truth is... I don't know. Let the facts come to surface and we can form our opinions at that time. ... The rest of your points sound to me like the requesite political partisan rhetoric that I can hear on FOX News... it can almost be taken, verbatium, from Sean Hannity's teleprompter.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Question: When the War in Afghanistan 'ends'... don't we have to release all of the 'Prisoners Of War' in our captivity? Does that mean those guys being held at Camp Delta have to be released... including that Sheik Mohammad Belushi-Lokalike? I mean, the call is to hold them in military tribunals, not U.S. Courts... which defines them as Prisoners Of War, right? ... So, in order to keep them as P.O.W. in Cuba forever... doesn't that mean the War in Afghanistan has to go on... forever? Someone should ask Sen. McCain about that.
This is a difficult question to wrestle. Technically, yes, you have to release all POWs once hostilities end. It's a basic tenant of the Geneva Convention. The problem is that the Taliban is not a nation and we are not at war with Afghanistan. Under normal rules of war, yes. But my guess is that the US would actually have no intention of releasing the most dangerous of these men, particularly considering that the Taliban now has zero American prisoners.
...
.. The bottom line is... We Are America. We are not Putin's Russia... we are not China... we are not the Taliban. If we allow our fears to make us more like Russia and less like America... who really won the War on Terror?
I'm pointing out the legal ramifications and technicalities, not the moral ones. I generally agree with you.
@cosmo the media is getting their information from Bergdalhs fellow soldiers. How would staceb 10 feel if his/her son was one of the 6 that died looking for him?
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Does anyone here have an actual problem with caging these people forever without ever charging them with a crime or giving them a trial?
absolutely. Throw away the constitution at that point because it no longer applies at all.
Try them. Or release them. But to continue to hold them with no legal recourse only serves to perpetuate an already deep seated hatred of the US and its government. Maybe thats the point of it to begin with.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Does anyone here have an actual problem with caging these people forever without ever charging them with a crime or giving them a trial?
... If I were Vladimir Putin... no problem. But, since I'm not, I'm going with "It is not who we are... as Americans". That is why I have always claimed that it is best to charge them with whatever crimes they commited to end up in Camp Delta and put them on trial in our courts of law. If they are found to be, 'Not Guilty'... ship them back to Afghanistan. If found guilty... send them to Pelican Bay to shack up with the guy who has swastikas tattooed on his face. That way, we don't find ourselves in a never ending war, just so we can keep these guys under wrap.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
@cosmo the media is getting their information from Bergdalhs fellow soldiers. How would staceb 10 feel if his/her son was one of the 6 that died looking for him?
... Wouldn't it all depend on whether he was killed while trying to rescue a fellow soldier... or if he was killed looking for a deserter? ... You don't know what the truth is... just like I don't know what the truth is. All we are getting right now is chatter. Remember Pat Tillman? He was a marketed as a clear justification of war... until the facts emerged and we learned he was killed by freidly fire. Jessica Lynch? Same thing. It has nothing to do about the soldiers, Tillman and Lynch... and everything to do with the selling of a political vantage point. ... How about we quit forming our opinions based upon our politiacal party affiliations and base it on the facts. Facts that have not made it to the light of day, yet. Facts and truth are often times, very tough to swallow. But, it is better to know the truth... right?
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Question: When the War in Afghanistan 'ends'... don't we have to release all of the 'Prisoners Of War' in our captivity? Does that mean those guys being held at Camp Delta have to be released... including that Sheik Mohammad Belushi-Lokalike? I mean, the call is to hold them in military tribunals, not U.S. Courts... which defines them as Prisoners Of War, right? ... So, in order to keep them as P.O.W. in Cuba forever... doesn't that mean the War in Afghanistan has to go on... forever? Someone should ask Sen. McCain about that.
This is a difficult question to wrestle. Technically, yes, you have to release all POWs once hostilities end. It's a basic tenant of the Geneva Convention. The problem is that the Taliban is not a nation and we are not at war with Afghanistan. Under normal rules of war, yes. But my guess is that the US would actually have no intention of releasing the most dangerous of these men, particularly considering that the Taliban now has zero American prisoners.
... The bottom line is... We Are America. We are not Putin's Russia... we are not China... we are not the Taliban. If we allow our fears to make us more like Russia and less like America... who really won the War on Terror?
I'm pointing out the legal ramifications and technicalities, not the moral ones. I generally agree with you.
... I know... sometimes I just go off on a weird tangent... don't mind me. But, yes.. the legal ramifications. Does the case get tossed because we denied him of his due process? I don't know... I'm not a lawyer. But, i still think we need to decide... is he a criminal... that will walk because he was held for 11 years without being charged... or he's a P.O.W. and will be let loose at the end of the War... or whatever it is that we're doing in Afghanistan. The third option is to never end the War in Afghanistan and accept the loss of lives of our military personnel... just so we can hang on to these guys as prisoners.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Yeah, you know, America may not be a country anymore after Obama. Are we going to be Canada? Mexico? Maybe Jamaica. I would like to be Jamaican.
I vote for the nationality that gets laid the most. Jamaica isn't too bad but I'm not sure I would be down with dreadlock hygiene for more than a few weeks. Is Italy too far away for consideration?
Or how about Australia? Learning the accent and how to throw a boomerang can't take more than a few months to master.
All solid points. Italy sounds pretty great, but if we gotta pick anything let's let the Spaniards take us over. Tapas, wine and siesta? Yes, please
Yes, shame on Obama for negotiating with terrorists.
However, look at the situation. If he alerted Congress, then they would've killed Bergdahl. If he did nothing, Bergdahl was going to become even worse, psychologically. I heard that he is already really psychologically messed up.
So, I am happy the guy is safe, but I am mad about how it was done. But, now that he is back he is also safe. Those 5 released will surely die in the near future. So we won, in a sense.
I don't want it to sound like I am backing Obama on this one, but I guarantee you if Bush or a Republican did this then there would not be much fuss over it.
I just hope we put trackers in those 5 terrorists so that a missile can greet them soon.
~Carter~
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
@cosmo the media is getting their information from Bergdalhs fellow soldiers. How would staceb 10 feel if his/her son was one of the 6 that died looking for him?
... Wouldn't it all depend on whether he was killed while trying to rescue a fellow soldier... or if he was killed looking for a deserter? ... You don't know what the truth is... just like I don't know what the truth is. All we are getting right now is chatter. Remember Pat Tillman? He was a marketed as a clear justification of war... until the facts emerged and we learned he was killed by freidly fire. Jessica Lynch? Same thing. It has nothing to do about the soldiers, Tillman and Lynch... and everything to do with the selling of a political vantage point. ... How about we quit forming our opinions based upon our politiacal party affiliations and base it on the facts. Facts that have not made it to the light of day, yet. Facts and truth are often times, very tough to swallow. But, it is better to know the truth... right?
I guess I'm guilty of putting a lot of trust in his fellow soldiers that insist he's a deserter. Sorry but I believe them. They seem pretty upset about it for a reason. I didn't realize you knew what party I'm associated with? You knew that I consider myself an independent and that I voted for Obama in 2008? I find it hilarious that in the same paragraph you make an assumption about me and then talk about getting our facts right!
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Does anyone here have an actual problem with caging these people forever without ever charging them with a crime or giving them a trial?
... If I were Vladimir Putin... no problem. But, since I'm not, I'm going with "It is not who we are... as Americans". That is why I have always claimed that it is best to charge them with whatever crimes they commited to end up in Camp Delta and put them on trial in our courts of law. If they are found to be, 'Not Guilty'... ship them back to Afghanistan. If found guilty... send them to Pelican Bay to shack up with the guy who has swastikas tattooed on his face. That way, we don't find ourselves in a never ending war, just so we can keep these guys under wrap.
Just checking. Because, you know, it applies to all of us now thanks to Obama signing NDAA 2012.
We are all subject to being locked up and never charged.
The President notified congress about Osama, why not this. I mean if he was told Bergdahl was getting worse whatever, don't you think he could of at least phoned Feinstein too? She is the head of the Intel committee and a Democrat. A courtesy call to her might of helped with that. What will be the next shiny object next week?
Yes, shame on Obama for negotiating with terrorists.
However, look at the situation. If he alerted Congress, then they would've killed Bergdahl. If he did nothing, Bergdahl was going to become even worse, psychologically. I heard that he is already really psychologically messed up.
So, I am happy the guy is safe, but I am mad about how it was done. But, now that he is back he is also safe. Those 5 released will surely die in the near future. So we won, in a sense.
I don't want it to sound like I am backing Obama on this one, but I guarantee you if Bush or a Republican did this then there would not be much fuss over it.
I just hope we put trackers in those 5 terrorists so that a missile can greet them soon.
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The President notified congress about Osama, why not this. I mean if he was told Bergdahl was getting worse whatever, don't you think he could of at least phoned Feinstein too? She is the head of the Intel committee and a Democrat. A courtesy call to her might of helped with that. What will be the next shiny object next week?
Yes, shame on Obama for negotiating with terrorists.
However, look at the situation. If he alerted Congress, then they would've killed Bergdahl. If he did nothing, Bergdahl was going to become even worse, psychologically. I heard that he is already really psychologically messed up.
So, I am happy the guy is safe, but I am mad about how it was done. But, now that he is back he is also safe. Those 5 released will surely die in the near future. So we won, in a sense.
I don't want it to sound like I am backing Obama on this one, but I guarantee you if Bush or a Republican did this then there would not be much fuss over it.
I just hope we put trackers in those 5 terrorists so that a missile can greet them soon.
Because the Taliban said if he notified Congress then they would've killed Bergdahl. If he did notify them, that info may or may not have been leaked to the public, and that is risky, and if it did then they would've killed Bergdahl.
~Carter~
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
Comments
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Telluride 16
So I am reserving judgment personally but at the same time, considering there had been no interview or assessment of the incident, I'm in the camp that we always bring our boys home.
I sure feel bad for the folks in Hailey. What a mess.
This part of the article worries me though:
"The U.S. military has said the circumstances under which Bergdahl disappeared have yet to be fully investigated, although Pentagon officials have indicated Bergdahl is unlikely to face charges regardless of what the Army learns of his capture because he has suffered enough."
I don't profess to have any clue of what his life in captivity was like, but to not face charges here if he indeed deserted? No repercussions at all for those actions and the lives subsequently lost?
Will this set a precedent?
http://m.rollingstone.com/politics/news/americas-last-prisoner-of-war-20120607
Does that mean those guys being held at Camp Delta have to be released... including that Sheik Mohammad Belushi-Lokalike?
I mean, the call is to hold them in military tribunals, not U.S. Courts... which defines them as Prisoners Of War, right?
...
So, in order to keep them as P.O.W. in Cuba forever... doesn't that mean the War in Afghanistan has to go on... forever?
Someone should ask Sen. McCain about that.
Hail, Hail!!!
Or how about Australia? Learning the accent and how to throw a boomerang can't take more than a few months to master.
The problem is... if we do not consider them Prisoners of War... then, why are they being held in a Prisoner Of War camp? Shouldn't they have to be tried in our court system in order for them to be convicted and imprisoned in our correctional systems?
If the answer is yes... then we have already denied them a speedy trial by holding them, imprisoned, for upwards to 13 years.
...
That was the point I was making back in 2003 when I said we needed to send them through our criminal courts system. So, we can find them guilty and ship them off to Pelican Bay. But, the pro-War folks were too afraid of having them on our soil. My point was, some of the people we are already holding in our prisons... murdered and ate people. To me.. you have to be pretty damn scary... to be scarier than a murderous cannibal that once roamed our streets.
..
The bottom line is... We Are America. We are not Putin's Russia... we are not China... we are not the Taliban. If we allow our fears to make us more like Russia and less like America... who really won the War on Terror?
Hail, Hail!!!
First off... thank your son for his service to our country... and thank you for being one the few Americans that actually carry the burden for our politically fueled wars.
...
Now, If you believe this:
"... this guy's "captivity" is in serious question as were his intentions for leaving the base in the first place."
Don't you think it might be a good idea to get the answers to these serious questions?
You have a son serving in Afghanistan... how would you feel if he were being held accountable for actions that have not been fully verified? How would you feel is he was villified in the media and the by public that believes the media... before he even has a chance to present his side?
Pretty pissed, I'm guessing. And rightfully so.
I'm not saying Berdahl is not a deserter or traitor or anything because the truth is... I don't know. Let the facts come to surface and we can form our opinions at that time.
...
The rest of your points sound to me like the requesite political partisan rhetoric that I can hear on FOX News... it can almost be taken, verbatium, from Sean Hannity's teleprompter.
Hail, Hail!!!
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Chicago 5/16 & 17/06
Grand Rapids 5/19/06
Summerfest 6/29/06 & 6/30/06
Tampa 6/12/08
Chicago 8/23/09
Indy 5/7/10
Alpine Valley x2 2011
Wrigley 2013
Milwaukee 14
Telluride 16
Try them. Or release them. But to continue to hold them with no legal recourse only serves to perpetuate an already deep seated hatred of the US and its government. Maybe thats the point of it to begin with.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
If I were Vladimir Putin... no problem. But, since I'm not, I'm going with "It is not who we are... as Americans".
That is why I have always claimed that it is best to charge them with whatever crimes they commited to end up in Camp Delta and put them on trial in our courts of law. If they are found to be, 'Not Guilty'... ship them back to Afghanistan. If found guilty... send them to Pelican Bay to shack up with the guy who has swastikas tattooed on his face.
That way, we don't find ourselves in a never ending war, just so we can keep these guys under wrap.
Hail, Hail!!!
Wouldn't it all depend on whether he was killed while trying to rescue a fellow soldier... or if he was killed looking for a deserter?
...
You don't know what the truth is... just like I don't know what the truth is. All we are getting right now is chatter. Remember Pat Tillman? He was a marketed as a clear justification of war... until the facts emerged and we learned he was killed by freidly fire. Jessica Lynch? Same thing.
It has nothing to do about the soldiers, Tillman and Lynch... and everything to do with the selling of a political vantage point.
...
How about we quit forming our opinions based upon our politiacal party affiliations and base it on the facts. Facts that have not made it to the light of day, yet. Facts and truth are often times, very tough to swallow. But, it is better to know the truth... right?
Hail, Hail!!!
I know... sometimes I just go off on a weird tangent... don't mind me.
But, yes.. the legal ramifications. Does the case get tossed because we denied him of his due process? I don't know... I'm not a lawyer. But, i still think we need to decide... is he a criminal... that will walk because he was held for 11 years without being charged... or he's a P.O.W. and will be let loose at the end of the War... or whatever it is that we're doing in Afghanistan.
The third option is to never end the War in Afghanistan and accept the loss of lives of our military personnel... just so we can hang on to these guys as prisoners.
Hail, Hail!!!
Get on it Obama
Yes, shame on Obama for negotiating with terrorists.
However, look at the situation. If he alerted Congress, then they would've killed Bergdahl. If he did nothing, Bergdahl was going to become even worse, psychologically. I heard that he is already really psychologically messed up.
So, I am happy the guy is safe, but I am mad about how it was done. But, now that he is back he is also safe. Those 5 released will surely die in the near future. So we won, in a sense.
I don't want it to sound like I am backing Obama on this one, but I guarantee you if Bush or a Republican did this then there would not be much fuss over it.
I just hope we put trackers in those 5 terrorists so that a missile can greet them soon.
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense
I didn't realize you knew what party I'm associated with? You knew that I consider myself an independent and that I voted for Obama in 2008? I find it hilarious that in the same paragraph you make an assumption about me and then talk about getting our facts right!
Missoula 6/20/98
Alpine Valley 6/26/98 & 6/27/98
Alpine Valley 10/8/00
Champaign 4/23/03
Alpine Valley 6/21/03
Missoula 8/29/05
Chicago 5/16 & 17/06
Grand Rapids 5/19/06
Summerfest 6/29/06 & 6/30/06
Tampa 6/12/08
Chicago 8/23/09
Indy 5/7/10
Alpine Valley x2 2011
Wrigley 2013
Milwaukee 14
Telluride 16
We are all subject to being locked up and never charged.
98 CAA
00 Virginia Beach;Camden I; Jones Beach III
05 Borgata Night I; Wachovia Center
06 Letterman Show; Webcast (guy in blue shirt), Camden I; DC
08 Camden I; Camden II; DC
09 Phillie III
10 MSG II
13 Wrigley Field
16 Phillie II
You can spend your time alone, redigesting past regrets, oh
or you can come to terms and realize
you're the only one who can't forgive yourself, oh
makes much more sense to live in the present tense - Present Tense