Bowe Bergdahl

primussucks

Obama negotiated with terrorists! Illegally bypassed Congress! Traded 5 Taliban commanders for a US traitor who cost the lives of 6 US soldiers who went looking for him! (Who in the meantime was playing badminton with his "captors") Those 5 will surely go on to kill more Americans in the future and this president thinks he deserves handshakes and pats on the back!?!? I agree Obama you deserve ALL the credit for this one!!!

whofeelslikeadrank

:-?

hedonist

Link, please.

!!!

dankind

It doesn't look good (http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/01/us/bergdahl-deserter-or-hero/).

unsung

They should have left him to rot.

Cliffy6745

Don't know what to think about this

dignin

I will reserve judgement until I hear his side and more info comes out.

Jason P

I'm surprised to learn that the US does not have the Taliban listed as a terrorist organization. Russia thinks otherwise ...

hedonist

Yeah, some of that CNN article is disturbing. If true, really fucked up.

For now, I'm in dignin's camp and hope the truth will eventually be revealed.

primussucks

https://www.yahoo.com/news/freed-us-soldier-celebrated-xmas-played-badminton-captors-181447547.html
I also read in another article that when officials announced his release to many soldiers at a base they were met with complete silence from the soldiers. They were expecting a loud applause. That silence speaks volumes!

hedonist

"Freed US soldier Bowe Bergdahl developed a love for Afghan green tea, taught his captors badminton, and even celebrated Christmas and Easter with the hardline Islamists, a Pakistani militant commander told AFP Sunday."
Again, waiting to hear more and am completely open.

But...green tea and badminton? Celebrating holidays that might bring a sense of normalcy?

Too many unknowns at this point for me to rail about.

Jason P

Politicing aside, he was an American POW. Welcome home.

brianlux

"A senior Defense official said Bergdahl's "reintegration process" will include "time for him to tell his story..."

Soooooo, maybe we should wait until we do hear his story before before getting so over-charged with angst?

callen

So we should get more info but....we can debate strategy of prisoner swaps and short term win versus long term damage. More people being kidnapped for future bargaining.

mrussel1

callen said:

So we should get more info but....we can debate strategy of prisoner swaps and short term win versus long term damage. More people being kidnapped for future bargaining.

I wouldn't expect the Taliban NOT to kidnap or kill a soldier if they had a chance. So I'm not sure how this trade will put any Americans in danger that aren't already in danger by virtue of where they are operating.

Regarding the merits of the trade for this individual, The DOD supported this, so it's not like it was a political move. The DOD was also well aware of the accusations and history levied by his company about the circumstances. You can rest assured the White House was as well. They made a decision that bringing an American home, even a potential deserter, is the right thing to do. I'm sure he will face court martial if the accusations have merit.

Gern Blansten

If Obama hadn't agreed to the swap the GOP would be bitching about "Obama doesn't support our troops!! HE LEAVES MEN BEHIND!!!!"

Let's say he's a deserter....maybe we got the guy back to prosecute him.

Most of what I've heard from the GOP so far is laughable....remember Iran/Contra?? The GOP...negotiating with terrorists is only ok when they are in the white house.

mrussel1

There is also an unusual technical detail in here that's important. The DOD is considering him a POW, not a hostage. The US has absolutely done prisoner exchanges in its history. It happened during the Civil War and LBJ even offered it in Vietnam. What's not clear is whether these prisoners at Gitmo are considered POWs or detainees.

I'm not supporting the delineation, just pointing it out.

Cosmo

callen said:

So we should get more info but....we can debate strategy of prisoner swaps and short term win versus long term damage. More people being kidnapped for future bargaining.

...
I have never been in a war zone or been held captive for 5 years, so it is difficult for me to even begin to pretend I know what I would do. Especially if I were held in a solitary captivity environment... where I would be not be in the company with other captive soldiers that I would be able to relate to.
That said... i think I'll wait until more truths emerge before I join the lynch mob.
...
Regarding prisoner swaps... we've been doing it for decades. We'd swap spies linked to Cold War deaths at the Glienicke Bridge and during the Reagan administration, senior administration officials secretly facilitated the sale of arms to Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran, who was the subject of an arms embargo. Some Reagan administration officials also hoped that the arms sales would secure the release of several hostages and allow U.S. intelligence agencies to fund the Nicaraguan Contra rebels seeking to overthrow their government. Under the Boland Amendment, further funding of the Contras by the U.S. government had been prohibited by Congress.
Yet, no one batted an eye and claimed it was a necessary evil. Reagan is heralded as the Patron Saint of America... so, the same things he did on his watch are accepted and seen an American act of virtue. It is all political theater for the American A.D.D. public.
Also, look into how the Taliban came to power in Afghanistan. Back in the 1980s, America cheered the people who would become the Taliban and Al Qaeda as 'Freedom Fighters'. We taught them how to successfully disrupt and kill large, well-trainned regular armies with primative methods of asymetric guerilla warfare. We are fighting the monster we created. America needs to own up to the fact that we were instrumental in creating the existance of the Taliban and their supporters. Maybe, we need to stop doing that shit.
...
So, if you are shocked by the events we see going on with us in the middle east today... you really should look into to re-taking that High School level U.S. History class you skipped out on in order to smoke that Marlboro cigarette behind the wood shop.

primussucks

It sure seems his fellow soldiers already know the truth. After all they are the ones calling him a deserter. How do we know that whatever bowe comes out and says will be the truth? After all he has previously condemned America in previous statements and it's hard to believe he won't be coached in what to say and not say after the media attention this is getting. 6 soldiers have already died because of him! How many more will die because of the 5 released prisoners?

mrussel1

primussucks said:

It sure seems his fellow soldiers already know the truth. After all they are the ones calling him a deserter. How do we know that whatever bowe comes out and says will be the truth? After all he has previously condemned America in previous statements and it's hard to believe he won't be coached in what to say and not say after the media attention this is getting. 6 soldiers have already died because of him! How many more will die because of the 5 released prisoners?

So the CNN article I read was a little confusing. It said the soldiers that were most directly connected all signed an NDA. I'm sure a military executed NDA has the type of non-compliance consequences that you don't want to mess with. So are all the other people speaking out, talking to people just soldiers at the base, who know things based on hearsay, or did they witness the situation?

callen

primussucks said:

It sure seems his fellow soldiers already know the truth. After all they are the ones calling him a deserter. How do we know that whatever bowe comes out and says will be the truth? After all he has previously condemned America in previous statements and it's hard to believe he won't be coached in what to say and not say after the media attention this is getting. 6 soldiers have already died because of him! How many more will die because of the 5 released prisoners?

But do we really know this is the case? Could be smoke n mirrors. We could have used him for intel? Not saying this is the case but.....

callen

Cosmo,

So we've swapped in past but is it good policy?

As you, will give dude some slack for being in shitty situation and can understand if he did flip out. What normal person just leaves semi secure confines and goes towards the enemy. Unarmed WO food?

All:

So does it matter if he was classified as POV or captured by terrorist organization?

PJ_Soul

I think it's probably not a good idea to show the Taliban that they can get their people - terrorists - out of prison if they kidnap people and hold them prisoner.

I hold nothing against this guy for developing the beliefs he had against America's war - he is pretty much right on all counts about that, and I actually respect soldiers who decide they cannot participate another minute in an immoral war. He didn't go about it in the right way and made a mistake he'll obviously regret for ever, but I don't begrudge him for his sentiments or motives. Too bad he didn't just think of a way to be dishonorable discharged or even sent to military prison for a bit.if absolutely necessary. Deserting on foot in the middle of a war wasn't the greatest idea to say the least. Well, lesson learned obviously. It's shitty that people died because of this. That wasn't his intent - sounds like he was driven by absolute desperation at the time, and may not have even been quite in his right mind. It 100% seems like something someone who was having some kind of mental breakdown would do. I think he's suffered enough now and I hope he's allowed to somehow fade into a private civilian life again, where I'm sure he'll suffer guilt over the death he inadvertently caused forever.

But letting Taliban prisoners free because of blackmail is a slippery slope. The Taliban are probably pretty happily surprised that it actually finally worked and are likely planning their next kidnapping so they can demand more of their people be set free now. I was surprised to see that this was done by the US.

Cosmo

primussucks said:

How many more will die because of the 5 released prisoners?

...
I suppose, it all depends who is standing around them when the AGM-114 Hellfire missile launched from an MQ-9 Reaper locks on to the transmitting device (implanted near their spinal chord by CIA surgeons at Camp Delta, Guantanamo Bay, Cuba) slams into the house they are in when they head over to Pakistan to meet up with their buddies.
...
Remember, they ARE dealing with the U.S. Government that you fear so much.

dankind

Cosmo said:

primussucks said:

How many more will die because of the 5 released prisoners?

...
I suppose, it all depends who is standing around them when the AGM-114 Hellfire missile launched from an MQ-9 Reaper locks on to the transmitting device (implanted near their spinal chord by CIA surgeons at Camp Delta, Guantanamo Bay, Cuba) slams into the house they are in when they head over to Pakistan to meet up with their buddies.
...
Remember, they ARE dealing with the U.S. Government that you fear so much.

Totally was thinking this earlier. This administration is ruthless and that goes for those who serve it as well.

OR

The five released Taliban members will be shunned and quite possibly executed by their former peers due to suspicions such as the above.

mrussel1

PJ_Soul said:

I think it's probably not a good idea to show the Taliban that they can get their people - terrorists - out of prison if they kidnap people and hold them prisoner.

The Taliban would capture our soldiers (or kill them) every opportunity they had, regardless of prisoner swaps. If anything, this increases the chances that a future prisoner is treated humanely if they know that it could lead to another exchange. If there was zero chance for exchange, then why wouldn't the Taliban torture or immediately execute?

Cosmo

callen said:

Cosmo,
So we've swapped in past but is it good policy?

As you will give dude some slack for being in shitty situation and can understand if he did flip out. What normal person just leaves semi secure confines and goes towards the enemy. Unarmed WO food?

All:
So does it matter if he was classified as POV or captured by terrorist organization?

...
I'm not saying the policy is neither good nor bad. I am just pointing out the fact that it IS our policy and we have been doing this for decades.
I am also saying that I do not know many of the facts, other than what is being posted on Facebook. I am going to reserve my opinion until I have heard more factual data... regarding his desertion or capture. Basically, what will be disclosed to our courts system. Because, that will be all I have. I was not there, so I don't know the facts... and i have not spoken to any of the other soldiers.
...
Finally, we have to remember who we are dealing with on our side of this deal. We are talking about the CIA and the massive machinery of our Intelligence community and all of their black project resources. I'm pretty sure they didn't release them like the way some people release unwanted puppies into the wilderness. More like, they attach a location device in the same manner oceanographers tag Great White when they capture/release them.
You have to remember who is acting in 'our interests'... the CIA.

callen

Cosmo said:

callen said:

Cosmo,
So we've swapped in past but is it good policy?

As you will give dude some slack for being in shitty situation and can understand if he did flip out. What normal person just leaves semi secure confines and goes towards the enemy. Unarmed WO food?

All:
So does it matter if he was classified as POV or captured by terrorist organization?

...
I'm not saying the policy is neither good nor bad. I am just pointing out the fact that it IS our policy and we have been doing this for decades.
I am also saying that I do not know many of the facts, other than what is being posted on Facebook. I am going to reserve my opinion until I have heard more factual data... regarding his desertion or capture. Basically, what will be disclosed to our courts system. Because, that will be all I have. I was not there, so I don't know the facts... and i have not spoken to any of the other soldiers.
...
Finally, we have to remember who we are dealing with on our side of this deal. We are talking about the CIA and the massive machinery of our Intelligence community and all of their black project resources. I'm pretty sure they didn't release them like the way some people release unwanted puppies into the wilderness. More like, they attach a location device in the same manner oceanographers tag Great White when they capture/release them.
You have to remember who is acting in 'our interests'... the CIA.

Forgot comma after "As you," Funny how I also thought of tracking devise. Non metallic non XRayable device injected into arm.

Cosmo

callen said:

Forgot comma after "As you," Funny how I also thought of tracking devise. Non metallic non XRayable device injected into arm.

...
RFID technology has advanced pretty far. You know how those smart cards, like my work ID Badge, has a paper thin chip that provides the location of my badge in and around all of our worldwide facilities? And we've had these badges with this technology since 2004. Our chip broadcasts out non-private data, such as my name and employee id number, department number and company and/or DoD security clearance information.
To track a prisoner, all you need to do is implant a silica based RFID under the skin... or the more powerful ones deeper into the soft tissue. Around the spine is a good place because you will need a highly skilled surgeon to remove it without killing or serverly paralysing the carrier. But, in most cases, the carrier is unaware he is transmitting the radio frequencies that will identify who he is and where he is, any time, any where.
...
And the thing is.... we only know of certain types of RFIDs. Back in 2009, researchers were able to glue RFID devices to live ants to study and track their movements and behaviour.
( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/bristol/somerset/8011998.stm )
And those are the 5 year old RFID technologies that have reached the light of day. Who knows what technologies exists in the realm of the black projects buried deep in the machinery of our defense systems that are protected from our knowledge by 'National Security' concerns?
...
Again... if you consider the machine that is part of this process, you understand that although these prisoners have been released... they are probably being tracked to lead us to greater, high value targets. The CIA is cunning and ruthless. Something I thought all Americans understood.

primussucks

Cosmo said:

callen said:

Forgot comma after "As you," Funny how I also thought of tracking devise. Non metallic non XRayable device injected into arm.

...
RFID technology has advanced pretty far. You know how those smart cards, like my work ID Badge, has a paper thin chip that provides the location of my badge in and around all of our worldwide facilities? And we've had these badges with this technology since 2004. Our chip broadcasts out non-private data, such as my name and employee id number, department number and company and/or DoD security clearance information.
To track a prisoner, all you need to do is implant a silica based RFID under the skin... or the more powerful ones deeper into the soft tissue. Around the spine is a good place because you will need a highly skilled surgeon to remove it without killing or serverly paralysing the carrier. But, in most cases, the carrier is unaware he is transmitting the radio frequencies that will identify who he is and where he is, any time, any where.
...
And the thing is.... we only know of certain types of RFIDs. Back in 2009, researchers were able to glue RFID devices to live ants to study and track their movements and behaviour.
( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/bristol/somerset/8011998.stm )
And those are the 5 year old RFID technologies that have reached the light of day. Who knows what technologies exists in the realm of the black projects buried deep in the machinery of our defense systems that are protected from our knowledge by 'National Security' concerns?
...
Again... if you consider the machine that is part of this process, you understand that although these prisoners have been released... they are probably being tracked to lead us to greater, high value targets. The CIA is cunning and ruthless. Something I thought all Americans understood.

I understand this thought process but then why limit these 5 terrorists to staying in Qatar for a year? Why not let them go wherever they want so that they lead us to their camps and hideouts ASAP? Also do we know if we have done that before with others that have been released from gitmo?

Cosmo

primussucks said:

I understand this thought process but then why limit these 5 terrorists to staying in Qatar for a year? Why not let them go wherever they want so that they lead us to their camps and hideouts ASAP? Also do we know if we have done that before with others that have been released from gitmo?

...
I don't know. Think like someone in the CIA would think.
The CIA Agents in Guantanamo know the most about these guys. Maybe they worked up psychological profiles on them and understand what their mindsets are. Maybe they needed to really sell this transaction to them... to make them truely believe they would be outside the reach of the CIA. Maybe part of this snow job is to convince them that a negotiation has been made and there were strict terms (selling points) bound to the agreement. Maybe some of the suspected Al Qaeda members are hiding in Qatar or Saudi Arabia or Bahrain. Maybe it is to allow time for CIA operatives to study them. I really don't know.
All i really know is that the CIA is something I do not want to fuck with because they can royally fuck me up. These prisoners are in the cross hairs of a very dangerous machine. That machine is not going to let them wander the world at will. You can be assured that they will be watched. There are still a lot of Al Qaeda members who are in deep hiding. Al Qaeda members that are of greater value than the ones they cut loose. Let them return home... in time... and show us where they are hiding, rather than turning over every stone in thhe desert.