qur'an & violence against women/girls

AELARA

:clap:

fuck wrote:

This post is factually incorrect:

jumbojet wrote:

That said, it is apparent that Islamic countries are far from being the champions of women rights or human rights, in general. I cannot say whether it is the religion or the culture causing this but I think culture and religion are very intertwined, anyway. They form each other.

Is that right? What about Bangladesh, which has had a woman head of state? Or does it not fit as an 'Islamic country' in your eyes because it's not covered in the media?

Some examples, not as extreme as you pointed:
- In Shria law in Islamic-ruled countries; 1 man witness is equal to 2 women witness.
- Inheritance is distributed like daughters get half of what sons get.
- As well-known, women have to close every part of their body, except hands and eyes.
- Men can marry with 4 women and can divorce them just by saying a word.
- Islamic countries forbid women drive cars.

"Islamic countries" forbid women to drive cars? You mean ONE country, Saudi Arabia, does. I think you need to be careful with your wording. A lot of people might reach the conclusion that you're generalizing, likely on the basis of a poor understanding of, well, literally everything you're talking about! For instance, does Saudi Arabia do it on the basis of Islam itself? Do the religious texts forbid women to drive cars? Not that you'd know, since you admitted yourself you never have (nor intend to) read the Qur'an. If you don't plan on engaging the sources, or even getting your plain facts correct, then I think your contribution here is not very helpful, since it is very clearly based on just things you've heard on the wire.

I addressed all your other points in that quote before so I won't bother doing that here.

And some examples related to human-right:
- IN Shria law in an Islamic-ruled country, if someone complains that you swore to God, it is something like a death penalty, for you.
- Shria law states that anyone criticising Islamic religion is to be killed because you cause suspicion in believers' minds; which is a big sin.

"Shariah law" states that? Where in "shariah law" is that written?

I'm not convinced you know what the shariah even is, to be honest. What makes up shariah law? Who determines what is in shariah law and what is not? How do they determine that? How has shariah law changed, in the 1400+ years that Islam has been around? Has it changed? Who changed it? Does it change in different contexts and societies? What is its relation to the sources, like the Quran and historical reports of what the Prophet did? On what basis can it be altered or disregarded?

No, how foolish of me. It's easier to not read the Quran, not study history, and not give a shit about any of these unimportant questions. After all, there are youtube videos of beheadings for God's sake! It's much more satisfying to just say "Islamic law says that" after watching youtube and CNN. God forbid I actually read a fucking book!

The thing is; there might be a chance that the very root of Islam might have come from something good. But there is also a lot of bullshit going on with today's Islamic practices, like some of the examples I gave above. So, there should be a demand for change in Islamic countries to wipe out all the bullshit, that is somehow associated with the religion. And then; the Islamic thought can get to a place where it would get the respect it deserves, being the mentor of so many people in the world.

The Christian belief has done this like 500 years ago, there was also a lot of bullshit going on in some European countries, all in the name of religion but that stuff is not happening anymore due to the demand for change, which came from people there.

Other than your extremely problematic wording in this section of your post (e.g., "the very root of Islam might have come from something good," as if pretty much everything that has happened since then is absolutely awful), I can somewhat agree with some of the sentiments you've expressed. There is a need for reform. But I think you have an extremely negative way of looking at "Islamic practices." Many charities, clinics, and so much social and humanitarian relief work is done by Islamic groups, yet this is almost always overlooked in favor of the more sensationalist coverage of beheadings and stonings, which are so rare it's absurd to be talking about them.

There was a story of a Christian man in Pennsylvania who stoned someone to death. Did anyone cover it? Did anyone care to talk about it? Not really. Nothing close to the way Islam is demonized in the media.

The bottom line is this. People need to:
1) take a step back from what you see in the media and not let it either shape your perception of Muslims, or shape the discourse of the religion. You cannot begin a conversation on Islam, when you have very little clue on what it is (based on all your own admissions of not even having read the Quran or know what it says), from questions like "Why are there stonings?" That question severely limits any productive conversation from thereon. It'd be like someone who has very limited knowledge on American culture and society simply stepping in and saying "You guys are so violent. Why are there mall shootings all the time?" but still try to claim "Oh, I just want to understand American culture, that's all." before adding another question of "And what's the deal with your president getting a blowjob from his intern that one time? Are you guys just all crazed sex addicts?"

2) stop generalizing things like "Shariah law says this" and "Islam does that." Islam is not monolithic, it is practiced very differently in different contexts. What you say is often what radicals think of Islam. Allowing them to control the discourse on what Islam "is" is extremely dangerous considering there are millions of Muslims who don't follow that.

3) understand that there are various complexities involved when it comes to history, politics, culture, society, etc., of the vast "Muslim world." You can't simply say that "there doesn't appear to be efforts to reform Islam." I've explained this point so many times, it's really getting irritating to me to have to keep repeating it.
There are videos of people standing by in American highschools (or even joining in) as boys gang rape a girl at a highschool. Are the people who stand by complicit? Probably so. Are ALL AMERICANS complicit? You've got to be fucking kidding me. This is what it sounds like when you guys make comments hinting that all Muslims are complicit because they don't "speak out enough" even though, again, you all admittedly have very poor knowledge of Islamic history and civilization, let alone current contemporary Islamic discourse and thought that is going on thousands of miles away from you.
There are people speaking out, but it's also extremely complex - as I've said before for instance, many regimes in that part of the world are autocratic and limit discourse, and these regimes are also supported and propped up by Western powers.

I know that the person I responded to claimed to live in a Muslim society. But it doesn't make him or her any less wrong.

Pingfah

chadwick wrote:

you are a bit hostile, yes/no?

You are a bit passive aggressive, yes/no?

chadwick

Pingfah wrote:

chadwick wrote:

you are a bit hostile, yes/no?

You are a bit passive aggressive, yes/no?

nope. i am a bit nicely pleased though as i just ate myself a spinach salad. lemme give you a wonderful recipe

strawberries sliced up (scissors is a great tool in the kitchen)
deli shaved pineapple ham (pork... use chicken instead)
large bowl w/ lid (for proper shaking the mix)
a large serving of spinach
one half of a avocado diced up
paul newman's caesar olive oil dressing - http://www.newmansown.com/products/newm ... -dressing/
and your favorite croutons

http://youtu.be/gdjqyCyuGtk

Moonpig

Godfather. wrote:

I spent a little time reading this thread and I believe most of you would free Charlie Manson if you found the opertunity to do so,I don't think any of you really have any understand of the koran or muslim faith and shirh law..not that I do by any means but all this talk about non-radicals and extreamist of the muslim faith is based on about much understanding as I have but yet you still wave the flag of good understanding and argue for the muslims peaceful quest......and then badbrains wants Arial banned for life ?....must be his peaceful and understanding muslim faith. and then uses this :twisted: at the end of his quote......I love this place.


Godfather.

I'm sorry but you are telling people they don't have an understanding of Muslims? That's a little rich coming from a bigot, ill get my facts from more informed sources thanks.

Unfortunately some Muslims fit your stereotypes, but then some Americans, like yourself can also fit certain stereotypes, most intelligent and informed people realise one is not necessarily a representation of the other. Swings and roundabouts.

mickeyrat

Been thinking about this , especially the title and what it signifies off the bat. The above edit is more to the issue I believe.

ajedigecko

mickeyrat wrote:

Been thinking about this , especially the title and what it signifies off the bat. The above edit is more to the issue I believe.

Good edit..simple edit.

Allows me to think differently also.

aerial

badbrains wrote:

Ariel, you have insulted and offended so many people on this board. I can't wait for the day I log on and dnt see you spewing hatred ANYMORE. And I know I speak for a lot of people on here. :twisted:

That is very OFFENSIVE, but thats ok I'm a grown adult and I can handle these things!

catefrances

aerial wrote:

badbrains wrote:

Ariel, you have insulted and offended so many people on this board. I can't wait for the day I log on and dnt see you spewing hatred ANYMORE. And I know I speak for a lot of people on here. :twisted:

That is very OFFENSIVE, but thats ok I'm a grown adult and I can handle these things!

wow! I guess the truth can be offensive.. I stand corrected. 8-)

badbrains

aerial wrote:

badbrains wrote:

Ariel, you have insulted and offended so many people on this board. I can't wait for the day I log on and dnt see you spewing hatred ANYMORE. And I know I speak for a lot of people on here. :twisted:

That is very OFFENSIVE, but thats ok I'm a grown adult and I can handle these things!

Really??? Would've never guessed that from your posts.

badbrains

catefrances wrote:

aerial wrote:

badbrains wrote:

Ariel, you have insulted and offended so many people on this board. I can't wait for the day I log on and dnt see you spewing hatred ANYMORE. And I know I speak for a lot of people on here. :twisted:

That is very OFFENSIVE, but thats ok I'm a grown adult and I can handle these things!

wow! I guess the truth can be offensive.. I stand corrected. 8-)

Godfather.

Moonpig wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

I spent a little time reading this thread and I believe most of you would free Charlie Manson if you found the opertunity to do so,I don't think any of you really have any understand of the koran or muslim faith and shirh law..not that I do by any means but all this talk about non-radicals and extreamist of the muslim faith is based on about much understanding as I have but yet you still wave the flag of good understanding and argue for the muslims peaceful quest......and then badbrains wants Arial banned for life ?....must be his peaceful and understanding muslim faith. and then uses this :twisted: at the end of his quote......I love this place.


Godfather.

I'm sorry but you are telling people they don't have an understanding of Muslims? That's a little rich coming from a bigot, ill get my facts from more informed sources thanks.

Unfortunately some Muslims fit your stereotypes, but then some Americans, like yourself can also fit certain stereotypes, most intelligent and informed people realise one is not necessarily a representation of the other. Swings and roundabouts.

facts from more informed sources thanks.? you mean from here ? unless you read live and fully understand the koran and live with it's followers I don't see how anybody can condider any other source more informed so I'll just keep watching he news .........hay did you just call me a bigot :nono: read the rules skippy

you may have hurt my only feeling i have left.


Godfather.

Godfather.

(CNN) -- Four Saudi men accused of dancing naked on the roof of a car and posting a video of the incident online have been sentenced to as many as 2,000 lashes and up to 10 years in prison, and fined thousands of dollars, a newspaper reported this week.

A criminal court in Buraidah, Saudi Arabia, handed down the verdict on Wednesday, according to the newspaper al-Sharq.

Three of the men were sentenced to three to seven years in prison and 500 to 1,200 lashes, and one man received the harshest sentence -- 10 years and 2,000 lashes.

The fines came to 50,000 Saudi riyals ($13,000), the newspaper reported.

The car they danced on was confiscated, al-Sharq reported, adding that the video of the incident has been removed.

Two of the men were "security men, who were supposed to preserve the security of this country and the values and traditions of Islam," the newspaper said.

Saudi activist receives 7-year sentence, 600 lashes for insulting Islam

Saudi government denies reports of paralysis punishment sentence

Outrage over beheading of Sri Lankan woman by Saudi Arabia



Godfather.

Godfather.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/31/world/mea ... index.html


good grief it's not a good idea to insult islam....


Godfather.

badbrains

Godfather. wrote:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/31/world/meast/saudi-blogger-sentenced/index.html


good grief it's not a good idea to insult islam....


Godfather.

Good grief your posts are getting stale and BORING. Islam blah blah blah, Muslims blah blah blah. Get yourself a girlfriend or a hobby. Oh that's right, bashing Muslims and Obama ARE your hobby..... :fp:

I hear krokodil is a new fad. :corn:

Godfather.

why don't you post some positive news about islam ?


Godfather.

rollings

Godfather. wrote:

I spent a little time reading this thread and I believe most of you would free Charlie Manson if you found the opertunity to do so

Godfather.

What's wrong with freeing Chuck Manson?

I don't get it

chadwick

Godfather. wrote:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/31/world/meast/saudi-blogger-sentenced/index.html


good grief it's not a good idea to insult islam....


Godfather.

sad ass bullshit. i would say the saudi government leaders & the religious madness over there is quite shocking. these folks might wanna try & grow up some. intertwined extreme this & extreme that, a combination pretty radical & dangerous.

these men do not deserve this punishment. what a crazy, bullshit situation. thank goodness i can post my feelings, desires & beliefs on the internet here in the u.s. if this were saudi arabia or iran i would probably never see the light of day again.

Godfather.

rollings wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

I spent a little time reading this thread and I believe most of you would free Charlie Manson if you found the opertunity to do so

Godfather.

What's wrong with freeing Chuck Manson?

I don't get it

ummmm good point,and axe murders as well !

Godfather.

Godfather.

chadwick wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/31/world/meast/saudi-blogger-sentenced/index.html


good grief it's not a good idea to insult islam....


Godfather.

sad ass bullshit. i would say the saudi government leaders & the religious madness over there is quite shocking. these folks might wanna try & grow up some. intertwined extreme this & extreme that, a combination pretty radical & dangerous.

these men do not deserve this punishment. what a crazy, bullshit situation. thank goodness i can post my feelings, desires & beliefs on the internet here in the u.s. if this were saudi arabia or iran i would probably never see the light of day again.

I think we both would have been beheaded by now. :shock:

Godfather.

chadwick

Godfather. wrote:

chadwick wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/31/world/meast/saudi-blogger-sentenced/index.html


good grief it's not a good idea to insult islam....


Godfather.

sad ass bullshit. i would say the saudi government leaders & the religious madness over there is quite shocking. these folks might wanna try & grow up some. intertwined extreme this & extreme that, a combination pretty radical & dangerous.

these men do not deserve this punishment. what a crazy, bullshit situation. thank goodness i can post my feelings, desires & beliefs on the internet here in the u.s. if this were saudi arabia or iran i would probably never see the light of day again.

I think we both would have been beheaded by now. :shock:

Godfather.

stoned until dead, dead & dead

to bad it aint grass stoning a guy to death