qur'an & violence against women/girls

Godfather.

badbrains wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

badbrains wrote:

Ariel, you have insulted and offended so many people on this board. I can't wait for the day I log on and dnt see you spewing hatred ANYMORE. And I know I speak for a lot of people on here. :twisted:

that's love baby......muslim love ?

Godfather.

No, that's my radical side, u know, the one you say ALL Muslims have. Look at GF standing up for his pal Areil. Bravo man, you 2 belong together since you basically are the same person. Nice of you to come join us in this thread. I was wondering where and why you weren't in here. Someone that HAS more hate towards Muslims then Areil belongs in this thread.

your raducal side ? (bait taken) what else dose your radical side do ?......this should be interesting,do all muslims have a radical side ? like say their wives or daughter's deside to leave a family for what ever reason,do the muslim men just say o.k leave ? do muslim grown men really take 8 year old brides and her family gives him their blessing ?
and does it really take 4 witness's for a muslim woman to claim a charge of rape and if she can not produce those witness' and claims rape what can happen to her ? because honestly all I have heard is what makes the news and it's never good.

Godfather.
have you ever read any post from me that said I hate someone ?

jumbojet

Well chadwick man, congratulations that you spend time and energy to understand something out of your surrounding.

I am myself born and raised in an overwhelmingly Muslim country and I myself am not dwelling on a lot of stuff like you brought to ask. And I am not even considering to read Quran or the Bible or anything like that.

I hope you already understand that some of those examples you brought are from extreme cases, as duska said and similar extreme cases can be found in every region in the world.

That said, it is apparent that Islamic countries are far from being the champions of women rights or human rights, in general. I cannot say whether it is the religion or the culture causing this but I think culture and religion are very intertwined, anyway. They form each other.

Some examples, not as extreme as you pointed:
- In Shria law in Islamic-ruled countries; 1 man witness is equal to 2 women witness.
- Inheritance is distributed like daughters get half of what sons get.
- As well-known, women have to close every part of their body, except hands and eyes.
- Men can marry with 4 women and can divorce them just by saying a word.
- Islamic countries forbid women drive cars.

And some examples related to human-right:
- IN Shria law in an Islamic-ruled country, if someone complains that you swore to God, it is something like a death penalty, for you.
- Shria law states that anyone criticising Islamic religion is to be killed because you cause suspicion in believers' minds; which is a big sin.

On the other hand, heaven in Islamic-thought is portrayed as some place where everyone is mesmerized with the amount of free sex and wine provided.

The thing is; there might be a chance that the very root of Islam might have come from something good. But there is also a lot of bullshit going on with today's Islamic practices, like some of the examples I gave above. So, there should be a demand for change in Islamic countries to wipe out all the bullshit, that is somehow associated with the religion. And then; the Islamic thought can get to a place where it would get the respect it deserves, being the mentor of so many people in the world.

The Christian belief has done this like 500 years ago, there was also a lot of bullshit going on in some European countries, all in the name of religion but that stuff is not happening anymore due to the demand for change, which came from people there.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

jumbojet wrote:

Well chadwick man, congratulations that you spend time and energy to understand something out of your surrounding.

I am myself born and raised in an overwhelmingly Muslim country and I myself am not dwelling on a lot of stuff like you brought to ask. And I am not even considering to read Quran or the Bible or anything like that.

I hope you already understand that some of those examples you brought are from extreme cases, as duska said and similar extreme cases can be found in every region in the world.

That said, it is apparent that Islamic countries are far from being the champions of women rights or human rights, in general. I cannot say whether it is the religion or the culture causing this but I think culture and religion are very intertwined, anyway. They form each other.

Some examples, not as extreme as you pointed:
- In Shria law in Islamic-ruled countries; 1 man witness is equal to 2 women witness.
- Inheritance is distributed like daughters get half of what sons get.
- As well-known, women have to close every part of their body, except hands and eyes.
- Men can marry with 4 women and can divorce them just by saying a word.
- Islamic countries forbid women drive cars.

And some examples related to human-right:
- IN Shria law in an Islamic-ruled country, if someone complains that you swore to God, it is something like a death penalty, for you.
- Shria law states that anyone criticising Islamic religion is to be killed because you cause suspicion in believers' minds; which is a big sin.

On the other hand, heaven in Islamic-thought is portrayed as some place where everyone is mesmerized with the amount of free sex and wine provided.

The thing is; there might be a chance that the very root of Islam might have come from something good. But there is also a lot of bullshit going on with today's Islamic practices, like some of the examples I gave above. So, there should be a demand for change in Islamic countries to wipe out all the bullshit, that is somehow associated with the religion. And then; the Islamic thought can get to a place where it would get the respect it deserves, being the mentor of so many people in the world.

The Christian belief has done this like 500 years ago, there was also a lot of bullshit going on in some European countries, all in the name of religion but that stuff is not happening anymore due to the demand for change, which came from people there.

I think it is fair to say that there is too much bullshit going on.

If the overwhelming majority of Muslims are truly peaceful... then overwhelm the minority who publically stone a woman to death for adultery no less. A Muslim country who has legally sanctioned stonings does not exactly fit the description expressed by peaceful Muslims... leaving, at a minimum, a degree of skepticism from those horrified by the practice.

Bottom line: some fights are worth fighting and a woman buried chest high and stoned in a public setting like it is a sporting event is a fight worth fighting in my mind. Pointing fingers at radical groups while doing nothing about it makes one an accomplice in my mind.

We have a growing Muslim population in Canada and I am glad they are helping populate our country. I am pretty sure we have some 'radicals' in our mix- we have had some examples of radical behaviours (honour killings). I can accept such examples as isolated and extreme behaviour. I have a hard time accepting a public stoning in a marketplace with everyone watching as actions on the part of a few. In the school system, everyone standing around encouraging a fight and doing nothing to prevent it is viewed as an accomplice.

badbrains

Dingin, you're absolutely right bro, I shouldn't take the bait from some guy who truly doesn't give a fuck about any of his questions. Just wants to stir shit up. I shall do my best to ignore his hatred and rhetoric. Thanks buddy! 8-)

Godfather.

8-)

chadwick

jumbojet wrote:

Well chadwick man, congratulations that you spend time and energy to understand something out of your surrounding.

I am myself born and raised in an overwhelmingly Muslim country and I myself am not dwelling on a lot of stuff like you brought to ask. And I am not even considering to read Quran or the Bible or anything like that.

I hope you already understand that some of those examples you brought are from extreme cases, as duska said and similar extreme cases can be found in every region in the world.

That said, it is apparent that Islamic countries are far from being the champions of women rights or human rights, in general. I cannot say whether it is the religion or the culture causing this but I think culture and religion are very intertwined, anyway. They form each other.

Some examples, not as extreme as you pointed:
- In Shria law in Islamic-ruled countries; 1 man witness is equal to 2 women witness.
- Inheritance is distributed like daughters get half of what sons get.
- As well-known, women have to close every part of their body, except hands and eyes.
- Men can marry with 4 women and can divorce them just by saying a word.
- Islamic countries forbid women drive cars.

And some examples related to human-right:
- IN Shria law in an Islamic-ruled country, if someone complains that you swore to God, it is something like a death penalty, for you.
- Shria law states that anyone criticising Islamic religion is to be killed because you cause suspicion in believers' minds; which is a big sin.

On the other hand, heaven in Islamic-thought is portrayed as some place where everyone is mesmerized with the amount of free sex and wine provided.

The thing is; there might be a chance that the very root of Islam might have come from something good. But there is also a lot of bullshit going on with today's Islamic practices, like some of the examples I gave above. So, there should be a demand for change in Islamic countries to wipe out all the bullshit, that is somehow associated with the religion. And then; the Islamic thought can get to a place where it would get the respect it deserves, being the mentor of so many people in the world.

The Christian belief has done this like 500 years ago, there was also a lot of bullshit going on in some European countries, all in the name of religion but that stuff is not happening anymore due to the demand for change, which came from people there.

a honest, intelligent & decent post given here. thank you, jumbojet. what you wrote here makes sense to me.

badbrains

Godfather. wrote:

8-)

8-) 8-)

fuck

This post is factually incorrect:

jumbojet wrote:

That said, it is apparent that Islamic countries are far from being the champions of women rights or human rights, in general. I cannot say whether it is the religion or the culture causing this but I think culture and religion are very intertwined, anyway. They form each other.

Is that right? What about Bangladesh, which has had a woman head of state? Or does it not fit as an 'Islamic country' in your eyes because it's not covered in the media?

Some examples, not as extreme as you pointed:
- In Shria law in Islamic-ruled countries; 1 man witness is equal to 2 women witness.
- Inheritance is distributed like daughters get half of what sons get.
- As well-known, women have to close every part of their body, except hands and eyes.
- Men can marry with 4 women and can divorce them just by saying a word.
- Islamic countries forbid women drive cars.

"Islamic countries" forbid women to drive cars? You mean ONE country, Saudi Arabia, does. I think you need to be careful with your wording. A lot of people might reach the conclusion that you're generalizing, likely on the basis of a poor understanding of, well, literally everything you're talking about! For instance, does Saudi Arabia do it on the basis of Islam itself? Do the religious texts forbid women to drive cars? Not that you'd know, since you admitted yourself you never have (nor intend to) read the Qur'an. If you don't plan on engaging the sources, or even getting your plain facts correct, then I think your contribution here is not very helpful, since it is very clearly based on just things you've heard on the wire.

I addressed all your other points in that quote before so I won't bother doing that here.

And some examples related to human-right:
- IN Shria law in an Islamic-ruled country, if someone complains that you swore to God, it is something like a death penalty, for you.
- Shria law states that anyone criticising Islamic religion is to be killed because you cause suspicion in believers' minds; which is a big sin.

"Shariah law" states that? Where in "shariah law" is that written?

I'm not convinced you know what the shariah even is, to be honest. What makes up shariah law? Who determines what is in shariah law and what is not? How do they determine that? How has shariah law changed, in the 1400+ years that Islam has been around? Has it changed? Who changed it? Does it change in different contexts and societies? What is its relation to the sources, like the Quran and historical reports of what the Prophet did? On what basis can it be altered or disregarded?

No, how foolish of me. It's easier to not read the Quran, not study history, and not give a shit about any of these unimportant questions. After all, there are youtube videos of beheadings for God's sake! It's much more satisfying to just say "Islamic law says that" after watching youtube and CNN. God forbid I actually read a fucking book!

The thing is; there might be a chance that the very root of Islam might have come from something good. But there is also a lot of bullshit going on with today's Islamic practices, like some of the examples I gave above. So, there should be a demand for change in Islamic countries to wipe out all the bullshit, that is somehow associated with the religion. And then; the Islamic thought can get to a place where it would get the respect it deserves, being the mentor of so many people in the world.

The Christian belief has done this like 500 years ago, there was also a lot of bullshit going on in some European countries, all in the name of religion but that stuff is not happening anymore due to the demand for change, which came from people there.

Other than your extremely problematic wording in this section of your post (e.g., "the very root of Islam might have come from something good," as if pretty much everything that has happened since then is absolutely awful), I can somewhat agree with some of the sentiments you've expressed. There is a need for reform. But I think you have an extremely negative way of looking at "Islamic practices." Many charities, clinics, and so much social and humanitarian relief work is done by Islamic groups, yet this is almost always overlooked in favor of the more sensationalist coverage of beheadings and stonings, which are so rare it's absurd to be talking about them.

There was a story of a Christian man in Pennsylvania who stoned someone to death. Did anyone cover it? Did anyone care to talk about it? Not really. Nothing close to the way Islam is demonized in the media.

The bottom line is this. People need to:
1) take a step back from what you see in the media and not let it either shape your perception of Muslims, or shape the discourse of the religion. You cannot begin a conversation on Islam, when you have very little clue on what it is (based on all your own admissions of not even having read the Quran or know what it says), from questions like "Why are there stonings?" That question severely limits any productive conversation from thereon. It'd be like someone who has very limited knowledge on American culture and society simply stepping in and saying "You guys are so violent. Why are there mall shootings all the time?" but still try to claim "Oh, I just want to understand American culture, that's all." before adding another question of "And what's the deal with your president getting a blowjob from his intern that one time? Are you guys just all crazed sex addicts?"

2) stop generalizing things like "Shariah law says this" and "Islam does that." Islam is not monolithic, it is practiced very differently in different contexts. What you say is often what radicals think of Islam. Allowing them to control the discourse on what Islam "is" is extremely dangerous considering there are millions of Muslims who don't follow that.

3) understand that there are various complexities involved when it comes to history, politics, culture, society, etc., of the vast "Muslim world." You can't simply say that "there doesn't appear to be efforts to reform Islam." I've explained this point so many times, it's really getting irritating to me to have to keep repeating it.
There are videos of people standing by in American highschools (or even joining in) as boys gang rape a girl at a highschool. Are the people who stand by complicit? Probably so. Are ALL AMERICANS complicit? You've got to be fucking kidding me. This is what it sounds like when you guys make comments hinting that all Muslims are complicit because they don't "speak out enough" even though, again, you all admittedly have very poor knowledge of Islamic history and civilization, let alone current contemporary Islamic discourse and thought that is going on thousands of miles away from you.
There are people speaking out, but it's also extremely complex - as I've said before for instance, many regimes in that part of the world are autocratic and limit discourse, and these regimes are also supported and propped up by Western powers.

I know that the person I responded to claimed to live in a Muslim society. But it doesn't make him or her any less wrong.

fuck

I also doubt your sincerity chadwick. You make no attempt to engage with any of the answers to your questions that I and others have provided. In any case, I really want to stop responding on here. It's really a waste of my time.

chadwick

fuck wrote:

I also doubt your sincerity chadwick. You make no attempt to engage with any of the answers to your questions that I and others have provided. In any case, I really want to stop responding on here. It's really a waste of my time.

you are a bit hostile, yes/no?

you doubt my sincerity... ok, that's fine & it is your right, your opinion to believe this to be fact of me. you really should know though that i been coming here for quite a number of years & have contributed to this website in all sorts of ways. i write poetry, i study environmental science & take those exact topics here seriously, you will find my posts are mostly in threads that have a cause.

do i post in "word of the moment" or "what is on your mind right now" or "what is up your keester, right now"

no, sir, i am here trying to educate not only myself but others who, like me, do not understand the ways of the muslim as well as all kinds of cultures & other religions

you, sir, have no idea who i am & what i am about. i would suggest to you to lighten up a bit & stop putting a bullshit wrongly suited judgement on me.

i will say this, some religious folks sure as shit do not like questions, some do not bend & get all uptight...

i use the word, uptight, as it (to me) best describes a whole fucking lot of people all over the world.

chadwick

and yes i just saw where 'whatever' area it is, is just now allowing women to drive. this is in my opinion 100% fact. it is i believe in iran. could i be wrong for watching, understanding & believing a news broadcast? sure as it very well could be bullshit propaganda. i do not trust government & whatnot. they will get the (false) word out any way they can. this though sure as shit seemed real as can be

chadwick

by the way, fuck, & whoever, i do like the singing/chanting/praying sound of "call to prayer"

i have no idea what they are saying but it sounds neat to my ears & i like it. it is powerful & has deep meaning to them, this i can tell because i am not blind

i actually watch these clips here on the net

& i'm even listening to one now

jomoah prayer live from al - madinah


that chadwick is such a fucking fake asshole

Moonpig

chadwick wrote:

Moonpig wrote:

Lol blah blah blah, any of you that truly believe a whole religion is out to get you need a complete reality check.

I'm tired of talking about how a minority of fanatics does not represent an entire religion of over a billion people. So you know what, believe what you want, prepare for sharia law, hunker down with a stockpile of weapons waiting the impending invasion, and tune in the daily reports of how they all want you dead.

I'm busy experiencing life

this is your response to my asking, "what is islamic sharia law?"

& by the way, moonpig, i for one am thrilled w/ my life although penniless most of the time, i am not living in fear that the islamic sharia law is out to get me

im simply curious & trying to learn w/ my online peers who just so happen to enjoy this band's music. maybe some of you can answer my questions without slamming me & others with bullshit comments

Well fella,

I just wanted to say my comment wasn't directed at you as such, I'm just tired of all the same old crap that people put up about Muslims. I actually really enjoy reading your posts, you're someone who actually reminds me of what a typical American used to be, brash as fuck, suffering no fools, saying it how it is.

We're not always going to agree and if shut needs to get said then we can have it out, however as said nothing personal lad.

As an Irishman I grew up with the stigma of what some British people believed to be true of me andy people, that we were all terrorists, so I guess I can sympathise.

Anyway, all the best and no hard feelings.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

fuck wrote:

I can somewhat agree with some of the sentiments you've expressed. There is a need for reform. But I think you have an extremely negative way of looking at "Islamic practices." Many charities, clinics, and so much social and humanitarian relief work is done by Islamic groups, yet this is almost always overlooked in favor of the more sensationalist coverage of beheadings and stonings, which are so rare it's absurd to be talking about them.

There are people speaking out, but it's also extremely complex - as I've said before for instance, many regimes in that part of the world are autocratic and limit discourse, and these regimes are also supported and propped up by Western powers.

To your first point i have included in the quotation: these 'events' might be rare... but they are far from absurd to be talking of them. They are barbaric to say the least and the fact that they are government and court sanctioned is incomprehensible.

To your second point: I know there are people speaking out, but their voice is not strong enough- obviously. The change effort is going to demand more than the voices of a few. The fact that in 2013 these things still do occur speaks to existing mentalities and also to the possibility that the changes are not as important as 'outsiders' might view them as.

Lastly, your effrots on this forum have not been in vain. I have been reading what you have written. You have motivated me to read a little on the subject. You have a respectful audience with your approach. If your intent was to offer perspective on Islam that many might not have formulated... I think you have been successful I don't think your work is done quite yet though.

fuck

I didn't mean it's absurd to talk about them ever -- I only meant that talking about them in the context of what Islam preaches, and as the only focus point of discussion, is problematic because I think it severely limits the discussion. I think it just shows impatience on the part of some who are supposed expressing interest about learning more about the topic, but eventually appear to only be interested in finding an answer that satisfies them. What I mean by this is that I think the questions that are asked (e.g. why does Islam seem to preach stoning?) as a starting off point is limited, whereas a more general question (e.g. how is law derived in Islam, and how do modern societies apply it / do they apply it?) would allow more room for explanation to then try to arrive at the answer.

But some people on here don't realize that it's not possible to skip all the more general questions just because they're currently interested in a topic that's covered on the news. It's not that simple.

I know there are people speaking out, but their voice is not strong enough- obviously. The change effort is going to demand more than the voices of a few. The fact that in 2013 these things still do occur speaks to existing mentalities and also to the possibility that the changes are not as important as 'outsiders' might view them as.

I recommend you read John Esposito's book 'Who Speaks for Islam?' which presents statistics done by Gallup on issues regarding women's rights, democracy, free speech, etc., in different parts of the Muslim world. It shows that Muslims are generally in agreement about these ideal notions.

The reason I think this is important is that I think it should allow us the opportunity to say the problems that exist in that part of the world are not because of Islam as a religion: What I mean earlier by 'this is absurd' is that it's absurd to have to have this discussion. It was a religion that was around when Islamic civilization was the peak of human civilization and development (whether scientific, philosophical, etc.) but we are able to cast that aside as if it were nothing. Many people attribute the development of secularism as a philosophy to the Muslim philosopher Averroes, for instance. There is ample research done to show that Islamic civilization helped lead to the Renaissance in Europe. But we are able to cast aside all this history simply because the Muslim world happens to be going through a horrible time now, and we find it convenient to ignore all the real problems that have actually contributed to what's going on now (whether it's settler-colonialism, sectarianism that is provoked by imperialist powers, autocratic regimes supported by Western nations, etc) and blame religion.

chadwick

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

fuck wrote:

I can somewhat agree with some of the sentiments you've expressed. There is a need for reform. But I think you have an extremely negative way of looking at "Islamic practices." Many charities, clinics, and so much social and humanitarian relief work is done by Islamic groups, yet this is almost always overlooked in favor of the more sensationalist coverage of beheadings and stonings, which are so rare it's absurd to be talking about them.

There are people speaking out, but it's also extremely complex - as I've said before for instance, many regimes in that part of the world are autocratic and limit discourse, and these regimes are also supported and propped up by Western powers.

To your first point i have included in the quotation: these 'events' might be rare... but they are far from absurd to be talking of them. They are barbaric to say the least and the fact that they are government and court sanctioned is incomprehensible.

To your second point: I know there are people speaking out, but their voice is not strong enough- obviously. The change effort is going to demand more than the voices of a few. The fact that in 2013 these things still do occur speaks to existing mentalities and also to the possibility that the changes are not as important as 'outsiders' might view them as.

Lastly, your effrots on this forum have not been in vain. I have been reading what you have written. You have motivated me to read a little on the subject. You have a respectful audience with your approach. If your intent was to offer perspective on Islam that many might not have formulated... I think you have been successful I don't think your work is done quite yet though.

thirty bills unpaid,

this is a gentleman who has a great sense of writing, communicating & being a good example & leader here for all of us to learn from. he writes in a way that hits the mark clearly & accurately

i do find myself saying, "i couldn't have said it better myself" as well as "he comes up with the proper way of getting his point or ideas across" this is done most times with a polite touch

chadwick

goodnight & be well, everyone
i'm out

Thirty Bills Unpaid

fuck wrote:

I didn't mean it's absurd to talk about them ever -- I only meant that talking about them in the context of what Islam preaches, and as the only focus point of discussion, is problematic because I think it severely limits the discussion. I think it just shows impatience on the part of some who are supposed expressing interest about learning more about the topic, but eventually appear to only be interested in finding an answer that satisfies them. What I mean by this is that I think the questions that are asked (e.g. why does Islam seem to preach stoning?) as a starting off point is limited, whereas a more general question (e.g. how is law derived in Islam, and how do modern societies apply it / do they apply it?) would allow more room for explanation to then try to arrive at the answer.

But some people on here don't realize that it's not possible to skip all the more general questions just because they're currently interested in a topic that's covered on the news. It's not that simple.

I know there are people speaking out, but their voice is not strong enough- obviously. The change effort is going to demand more than the voices of a few. The fact that in 2013 these things still do occur speaks to existing mentalities and also to the possibility that the changes are not as important as 'outsiders' might view them as.

I recommend you read John Esposito's book 'Who Speaks for Islam?' which presents statistics done by Gallup on issues regarding women's rights, democracy, free speech, etc., in different parts of the Muslim world. It shows that Muslims are generally in agreement about these ideal notions.

The reason I think this is important is that I think it should allow us the opportunity to say the problems that exist in that part of the world are not because of Islam as a religion: What I mean earlier by 'this is absurd' is that it's absurd to have to have this discussion. It was a religion that was around when Islamic civilization was the peak of human civilization and development (whether scientific, philosophical, etc.) but we are able to cast that aside as if it were nothing. Many people attribute the development of secularism as a philosophy to the Muslim philosopher Averroes, for instance. There is ample research done to show that Islamic civilization helped lead to the Renaissance in Europe. But we are able to cast aside all this history simply because the Muslim world happens to be going through a horrible time now, and we find it convenient to ignore all the real problems that have actually contributed to what's going on now (whether it's settler-colonialism, sectarianism that is provoked by imperialist powers, autocratic regimes supported by Western nations, etc) and blame religion.

The deeper level questioning that you encourage is not a common conversational tactic of most people on a message board. I would agree that most- including me- are looking for the 'quick answer'. In fairness though, I am not sure how any comprehensive amount of study on my part could ever make sense of stoning a woman to death in a public setting.

Regardless, I sense you are growing weary of the criticisms and I can understand why. When you say, the Muslim world happens to be going through a horrible time now and for your excellent efforts posting here... I wish to buy you a virtual beer.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

chadwick wrote:

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

fuck wrote:

I can somewhat agree with some of the sentiments you've expressed. There is a need for reform. But I think you have an extremely negative way of looking at "Islamic practices." Many charities, clinics, and so much social and humanitarian relief work is done by Islamic groups, yet this is almost always overlooked in favor of the more sensationalist coverage of beheadings and stonings, which are so rare it's absurd to be talking about them.

There are people speaking out, but it's also extremely complex - as I've said before for instance, many regimes in that part of the world are autocratic and limit discourse, and these regimes are also supported and propped up by Western powers.

To your first point i have included in the quotation: these 'events' might be rare... but they are far from absurd to be talking of them. They are barbaric to say the least and the fact that they are government and court sanctioned is incomprehensible.

To your second point: I know there are people speaking out, but their voice is not strong enough- obviously. The change effort is going to demand more than the voices of a few. The fact that in 2013 these things still do occur speaks to existing mentalities and also to the possibility that the changes are not as important as 'outsiders' might view them as.

Lastly, your effrots on this forum have not been in vain. I have been reading what you have written. You have motivated me to read a little on the subject. You have a respectful audience with your approach. If your intent was to offer perspective on Islam that many might not have formulated... I think you have been successful I don't think your work is done quite yet though.

thirty bills unpaid,

this is a gentleman who has a great sense of writing, communicating & being a good example & leader here for all of us to learn from. he writes in a way that hits the mark clearly & accurately

i do find myself saying, "i couldn't have said it better myself" as well as "he comes up with the proper way of getting his point or ideas across" this is done most times with a polite touch

You give me too much credit here, Chadwick, but thanks anyways! You can have a virtual beer on me as well!

dignin

fuck wrote:

I also doubt your sincerity chadwick. You make no attempt to engage with any of the answers to your questions that I and others have provided. In any case, I really want to stop responding on here. It's really a waste of my time.

Some of us may not respond, but we are listening. Not a waste of your time at all.

Differing view points are important. I value what you and others have to offer and say.

But it is unfortunate that some here couldn't show their differences with a little more dignity and respect.