Is America Really 'The Land of The Free'?

polaris_x

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

56% from Mexico. Have you seen what has been going on in that country? You wonder why they crawl through tunnels to escape for the chance at a better life?

The subject of this thread doesn't appear to be one attacking the US... yet it seems as if the chest beaters are in full defence mode. Could someone point me to the post that has the patriots feeling as if their dignity has been attacked? I think I missed it.

i saw a documentary a few years ago at hot docs where they followed some men from nicaragua on their journey to try and get into the US ... one guy basically said he makes $10 a day and would not go if he could make $15 ...

thing with all these illegal aliens is two-fold:

1. yes, opportunity for personal wealth is much greater in the US ... that cannot be argued
2. some of the barriers to gaining that wealth in their own country is the result of US policy ... perhaps if the US left latin america alone - we wouldn't see this influx ... if you look at the list of these illegal immigrants and their country of origin - you should see a parallel of cia/us involvement in that country ... mexico, guatemala, honduras, el salvador ... etc..

Thirty Bills Unpaid

polaris_x wrote:

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

56% from Mexico. Have you seen what has been going on in that country? You wonder why they crawl through tunnels to escape for the chance at a better life?

The subject of this thread doesn't appear to be one attacking the US... yet it seems as if the chest beaters are in full defence mode. Could someone point me to the post that has the patriots feeling as if their dignity has been attacked? I think I missed it.

i saw a documentary a few years ago at hot docs where they followed some men from nicaragua on their journey to try and get into the US ... one guy basically said he makes $10 a day and would not go if he could make $15 ...

thing with all these illegal aliens is two-fold:

1. yes, opportunity for personal wealth is much greater in the US ... that cannot be argued
2. some of the barriers to gaining that wealth in their own country is the result of US policy ... perhaps if the US left latin america alone - we wouldn't see this influx ... if you look at the list of these illegal immigrants and their country of origin - you should see a parallel of cia/us involvement in that country ... mexico, guatemala, honduras, el salvador ... etc..

Not to mention the US's contribution to the intense demand for drug products that has left the country in a lawless state run by ruthless cartels.

JimmyV

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

show me ONE post, just ONE, that shows prejudicial hatred of the American public. You can't. Because what goes on here is simply discussing topics that involve American government or military or foreign policy. Which, is quite a lot. What goes on in the US affects more than just americans. by way of american foreign policy itself. so yeah, we're going to talk about it.

show me "one post" where I used the word " prejudicial hatred " and as far as reading someones constant negative bable about America this and America that gets really old..the guy sounds like a broken record and is just shy of being a troll.

Godfather.

I was addressing Jimmy V, not you.

Indeed, "prejudicial hatred" were my words and I stand by them. Hugh, after reading Polaris X's contribution yesterday do you still believe the prejudice I describe does not exist on this board?

JimmyV

polaris_x wrote:

JimmyV wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

the part where you take anything that can be mildly attributed as a criticism of americans and claim prejudice ... tell me ... are americans not nationalistic and proud people?

You wrote:

americans are as nationalistic as they come ... it's beaten into them ... even the liberals here have an aversion to hearing what is wrong with the country ... they can't separate their defensive nature from the objective criticisms ...

That statement is dripping with prejudice. You lump all Americans in together, then lump all American liberals in together. There is no objective criticism there.

Are some American nationalistic and proud? Sure. So say some Americans. Don't paint us all with one brush and then claim to not have a bias.

let me reiterate ... it is dripping with prejudice because you choose to do so ... instead of actually addressing the point ... your reaction is simply to try and discount it because you don't like hearing it ...

again - we offer generalizations for a purpose ... they need to have relevance and they need to be true ... and yet again - saying not all americans are this or that is an absurdity of a point to make ... it is OBVIOUS that not all americans or anything otherwise you'd be all clones ...

feel free to ignore the criticisms - it's an easy way out ...

Let me reiterate...my point was that prejudice such as yours exists on this board unchecked and many are blind to it. I understand completely that you either don't see it or choose to ignore it.

And there is no easier way out than refusing to take responsibility for one's own words.

dimitrispearljam

i remember once,i was watching a game at basketball,Greece-USSR at 1987 i think it was and the guy at the tv said,cos one of the ref was against Greece almost always "he wears Red Glasses!!!"cos of the color ussr team wear..
and by saying that,i mean if you biased against or for USA you will not change your mind..
i think the truth is somewhere in the middle..
USA isnt the best and for sure not the worst when iut comes to the 'The Land of The Free'

hedonist

PJ_Soul wrote:

I guess it's at this point when we need to explore definitions of freedom in the context of being human beings who live in organized societies. No need to go extremist on the subject IMHO. I personally feel pretty darned free, as someone who lives in Canada and isn't a prisoner of personal debt (remember, sometimes, we create our own lack of freedom too). I do wish pot was legal though. :think:

With you on all points (except substitute US for Canada ).

Byrnzie

JimmyV wrote:

Let me reiterate...my point was that prejudice such as yours exists on this board unchecked and many are blind to it. I understand completely that you either don't see it or choose to ignore it.

And there is no easier way out than refusing to take responsibility for one's own words.

Don't worry, we get it: Criticizing the U.S government = hating America.

JimmyV

Byrnzie wrote:

JimmyV wrote:

Let me reiterate...my point was that prejudice such as yours exists on this board unchecked and many are blind to it. I understand completely that you either don't see it or choose to ignore it.

And there is no easier way out than refusing to take responsibility for one's own words.

Don't worry, we get it: Criticizing the U.S government = hating America.

Obviously you do not. As I stressed repeatedly, their are valid critics and valid criticisms. But go ahead, pretend that is my point.

polaris_x

JimmyV wrote:

Indeed, "prejudicial hatred" were my words and I stand by them. Hugh, after reading Polaris X's contribution yesterday do you still believe the prejudice I describe does not exist on this board?

although i have an american girlfriend and all my american friends would agree with my viewpoints ... they also have the ability to think objectively ... sometimes that is simply too much to ask ...

what is funny is i've said waaaaaay more controversial things ... if you think yesterdays post was prejudicial hatred - i feel sorry for you ... ... cuz it's gonna get worse ... please add me as a foe so you can be spared the horrors ...

polaris_x

JimmyV wrote:

Let me reiterate...my point was that prejudice such as yours exists on this board unchecked and many are blind to it. I understand completely that you either don't see it or choose to ignore it.

And there is no easier way out than refusing to take responsibility for one's own words.

again ... avoiding the point and playing victim ... it is you who is choosing to avoid responsibility ...

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Jimmy V, hasn't the post you referenced been produced in the context of a discussion that spiralled from a level of defensiveness? In other words, wasn't the criticism somewhat elicited?

I'm sincerely still confused as to where this thread spun towards flag wavers feeling as if they were under attack? When did the thread twist towards an opportunity for the discussion to be about chest beating and (naturally) people in opposition to the level of boasting?

Don't take things so personally. Any thread in any forum ultimately boils down to difference of opinion:
Even Flow or Jeremy?
Binaural or No Code?
Which setlist?
Which poster?
Guns?
Death Penalty?
US is the greatest?

You cannot expect people to sit idle while some publically insist that the US reigns supreme. Anything to the contrary cannot be construed as an attack on the US and its people. It's discussion. Filter what you wish from it.

JimmyV

polaris_x wrote:

JimmyV wrote:

Indeed, "prejudicial hatred" were my words and I stand by them. Hugh, after reading Polaris X's contribution yesterday do you still believe the prejudice I describe does not exist on this board?

although i have an american girlfriend and all my american friends would agree with my viewpoints ... they also have the ability to think objectively ... sometimes that is simply too much to ask ...

what is funny is i've said waaaaaay more controversial things ... if you think yesterdays post was prejudicial hatred - i feel sorry for you ... ... cuz it's gonna get worse ... please add me as a foe so you can be spared the horrors ...

Really? All your American friends agree with your views? Must be some lively discussions you have.

No doubt you probably have said more controversial things. Yesterday's comment was just the perfect one at the perfect time to prove my point. I do thank you for that.

Byrnzie

JimmyV wrote:

Obviously you do not. As I stressed repeatedly, their are valid critics and valid criticisms. But go ahead, pretend that is my point.

Valid critics, and valid criticisms? I'd really love to hear your definition of a valid critic, and a valid criticism. Please, enlighten me. I'm on the edge of my seat.

polaris_x

JimmyV wrote:

Really? All your American friends agree with your views? Must be some lively discussions you have.

No doubt you probably have said more controversial things. Yesterday's comment was just the perfect one at the perfect time to prove my point. I do thank you for that.

yes ... but again, they are critical thinkers ...

Byrnzie

Come on, tell me what constitutes a valid critic and a valid criticism. The suspension's killing me.

polaris_x

Byrnzie wrote:

Come on, tell me what constitutes a valid critic and a valid criticism. The suspension's killing me.

anything I say = not valid because i have prejudicial hatred
all other criticism will be evaluated on a case by case basis ...

JimmyV

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

Jimmy V, hasn't the post you referenced been produced in the context of a discussion that spiralled from a level of defensiveness? In other words, wasn't the criticism somewhat elicited?

I'm sincerely still confused as to where this thread spun towards flag wavers feeling as if they were under attack? When did the thread twist towards an opportunity for the discussion to be about chest beating and (naturally) people in opposition to the level of boasting?

Don't take things so personally. Any thread in any forum ultimately boils down to difference of opinion:
Even Flow or Jeremy?
Binaural or No Code?
Which setlist?
Which poster?
Guns?
Death Penalty?
US is the greatest?

You cannot expect people to sit idle while some publically insist that the US reigns supreme. Anything to the contrary cannot be construed as an attack on the US and its people. It's discussion. Filter what you wish from it.

For me it is certainly something that had been building for a while. And I don't believe the intent of the OP was to discuss civil liberties. I think the choice of title and opening few sentences were designed to be provocative. Others will disagree and that is fine.

I don't expect anyone to sit idly by if they have something to say. Discussion and disagreement are both great things. But we have a culture on this board of the same voices saying the same things over and over again. It becomes hard to take those voices seriously.

JimmyV

polaris_x wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

Come on, tell me what constitutes a valid critic and a valid criticism. The suspension's killing me.

anything I say = not valid because i have prejudicial hatred
all other criticism will be evaluated on a case by case basis ...

Always consider the source. It is really that simple.

JimmyV

polaris_x wrote:

JimmyV wrote:

Really? All your American friends agree with your views? Must be some lively discussions you have.

No doubt you probably have said more controversial things. Yesterday's comment was just the perfect one at the perfect time to prove my point. I do thank you for that.

yes ... but again, they are critical thinkers ...

Obviously not if they are agreeing with every point you make.

dimitrispearljam

there is not only one side in a coin..just saying...