Arizona mulls transgender washroom use

PJ_Soul

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-21870064

Arizona debates transgender access to public toilets


Lawmakers in Arizona are considering a law requiring transgender people to use public toilets of the gender on their birth certificate.

The bill, to be debated on Wednesday, would be the toughest in the US.

Last month, the state approved a human rights measure banning gender identity discrimination at public facilities.

In recent weeks, two other states passed laws ensuring equal access to gender-segregated facilities for transgender students.

The bill in Arizona's Republican-dominated legislature would make it a misdemeanor charge to use a public toilet, bathroom, shower, bath, dressing room or changing room associated with a gender other than what is on one's birth certificate.

'Making everyone uncomfortable'

Penalties could include six months in prison.

"If you look like a man and you live your life like a man, you should be able to use a man's bathroom," said Dru Levasseur, a transgender rights lawyer for the advocacy group Lambda Legal.

But John Kavanagh, the Republican lawmaker who sponsored the bill, said he feared criminals might take advantage of the situation and expose themselves to children of the opposite gender.

"This law simply restores the law of society: men are men and women are women," Mr Kavanagh said, according to the Associated Press.

"For a handful of people to make everyone else uncomfortable just makes no sense."

But, Mr Kavanagh added, police would be allowed to use their discretion over whether to press charges if women used the men's room to avoid a long queue.

Advocates say transgender people can find it difficult to change gender on their birth certificates because many states require proof of gender treatment surgery.

Meanwhile, other states such as Idaho and Ohio do not allow such changes at all, the American Civil Liberties Union said.

It is already illegal to discriminate against transgender people in 16 US states, although the extent of protections can vary, the group added.

In an ongoing case, a Colorado family has filed a complaint against the state after their six-year-old, who was born a boy, was banned from using the girl's bathroom at her primary school.

What the FUCK???? This is disgusting! .... On the upside, surely something like this wouldn't make it past the Supreme Court?

Jason P

So if I say I'm a woman, I can hang out in woman's restrooms?

Does this logic apply to women's locker rooms at the local pool too?

chadwick

"In an ongoing case, a Colorado family has filed a complaint against the state after their six-year-old, who was born a boy, was banned from using the girl's bathroom at her primary school."

say what?

PJ_Soul

Jason P wrote:

So if I say I'm a woman, I can hang out in woman's restrooms?

Does this logic apply to women's locker rooms at the local pool too?

:fp: Transgender doesn't equal cross-dressing. Transgendered people live their lives as the gender they feel they are, and most of them are either planning on, already in the process of, or have completed a sex change. It's not just putting on a bad wig and some lip gloss and saying "I'm a chick!"

PJ_Soul

chadwick wrote:

"In an ongoing case, a Colorado family has filed a complaint against the state after their six-year-old, who was born a boy, was banned from using the girl's bathroom at her primary school."

say what?

I assume the parents have acknowledged the kid's female gender identity early and are supportive of whatever the kid wants to do. Presumably, the kid says he wants to be a girl, and the parents are open-minded enough to accommodate that.

chadwick

if you are born male you are labeled male on your birth certificate forever. i like this law. if you are born female you get the same treatment with your birth certificate; you cannot change it.

if you are born a male & you grow up & believe all of a sudden it is time to be a woman & you dress as a woman & you believe you should be allowed to use a women's public restroom you are out of your cotton pickin mind. you were born a male use the men's restroom even if you wear a dress. you may stand in your dress to take a whiz.

if you are sad & uncomfortable with the way things are you can always not use the public restrooms but instead pee or poop your pants/dress

chadwick

PJ_Soul wrote:

chadwick wrote:

"In an ongoing case, a Colorado family has filed a complaint against the state after their six-year-old, who was born a boy, was banned from using the girl's bathroom at her primary school."

say what?

I assume the parents have acknowledged the kid's female gender identity early and are supportive of whatever the kid wants to do. Presumably, the kid says he wants to be a girl, and the parents are open-minded enough to accommodate that.

the kid is 6

pandora

it's a complicated world

so what was that? the person creating the bill worried about children being molested...
I'm confused

PJ_Soul

chadwick wrote:

if you are born male you are labeled male on your birth certificate forever. i like this law. if you are born female you get the same treatment with your birth certificate; you cannot change it.

if you are born a male & you grow up & believe all of a sudden it is time to be a woman & you dress as a woman & you believe you should be allowed to use a women's public restroom you are out of your cotton pickin mind. you were born a male use the men's restroom even if you wear a dress. you may stand in your dress to take a whiz.

if you are sad & uncomfortable with the way things are you can always not use the public restrooms but instead pee or poop your pants

I don't think you understand what it is to be transgendered.
You don't grow up and and suddenly decide it's time to be a woman. Transgendereds feel that they are the opposite sex than their bodies from as early as they can remember. It is also not about cross-dressing. They live their entire lives as the opposite sex, and very often seek sex change surgery.

I had no idea that people thought that cross-dressing is the same as being transgendered. Sounds like more education really is needed when it comes to gender identity and sexuality.

Jason P

PJ_Soul wrote:

Jason P wrote:

So if I say I'm a woman, I can hang out in woman's restrooms?

Does this logic apply to women's locker rooms at the local pool too?

:fp: Transgender doesn't equal cross-dressing. Transgendered people live their lives as the gender they feel they are, and most of them are either planning on, already in the process of, or have completed a sex change. It's not just putting on a bad wig and some lip gloss and saying "I'm a chick!"

Hey, I know how the game is played.



If Doc Brown shows up in front of Wesley Snipes w/ a DeLorean and one chance to go back in time .... does he go back to stop himself from taking this role or does he go back and pay his federal taxes ....


:think:

PJ_Soul

pandora wrote:

it's a complicated world

so what was that? the person creating the bill worried about children being molested...
I'm confused

That part just pissed me off. Most child molesters identify as heterosexuals.

PJ_Soul

Jason P wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

Jason P wrote:

So if I say I'm a woman, I can hang out in woman's restrooms?

Does this logic apply to women's locker rooms at the local pool too?

:fp: Transgender doesn't equal cross-dressing. Transgendered people live their lives as the gender they feel they are, and most of them are either planning on, already in the process of, or have completed a sex change. It's not just putting on a bad wig and some lip gloss and saying "I'm a chick!"

Hey, I know how the game is played.



If Doc Brown shows up in front of Wesley Snipes w/ a DeLorean and one chance to go back in time .... does he go back to stop himself from taking this role or does he go back and pay his federal taxes ....


:think:

Patrick Swayze really did make a handsome lady.

chadwick

hey miss... i know exactly what transgendering means. i feel a 6 year old boy has no business having his parents believing he is a girl truly and fully full blown female

PJ_Soul

chadwick wrote:

hey miss... i know exactly what transgendering means. i feel a 6 year old boy has no business having his parents believing he is a girl truly and fully full blown female

Then I don't know why you were talking about people suddenly deciding they were the opposite sex and putting on a dress and calling themselves transgendered... that doesn't make it sound like you know much about it.
As for the kid... I don't think that has anything to with what the parents "believe". I'm pretty sure it is about what the KID believes. I know that if my kid insisted to me that he felt that he's a girl on the inside, I'd bend over backwards to make him feel comfortable. and making him use the boys washroom when he didn't feel comfortable doing so would not be something I'd be inclined to do.

hedonist

Swayze reminds me of Tootsie in that shot

Many of the restrooms/washrooms I used in Europe were unisex; I've come across some in the US too.

Never had a problem, and I just don't see what the big deal is.

Years ago when I worked for a department store, there was a fellow who was in the process (early into it, I believe) of becoming transgendered. He'd select women's clothes and I'd always let him into the women's dressing rooms to try them on. Some of my co-workers had a problem with this. Fortunately, I was their manager :P

Sweet man. All this time later I still wonder what became of him.

Jason P

To be serious, I think this falls under the "tough crap" catagory for transgendered people. That may sound harsh, but as a women, would you want a man in the gym shower room with you, even if that person identifies as a female ... and this person is a complete stranger.

I think not.

fife

chadwick wrote:

hey miss... i know exactly what transgendering means. i feel a 6 year old boy has no business having his parents believing he is a girl truly and fully full blown female

I agree it is better that the parents tell her she is an idiot so when that child grows up she will be great inside. do you really think i child just one day says to his parents "eh, guess what, your litlle boy is a girl"

I work with alot of transgender people and let me tell you they are one of the worst treated people in our society.

PJ_Soul

hedonist wrote:

Swayze reminds me of Tootsie in that shot

Many of the restrooms/washrooms I used in Europe were unisex; I've come across some in the US too.

Never had a problem, and I just don't see what the big deal is.

Years ago when I worked for a department store, there was a fellow who was in the process (early into it, I believe) of becoming transgendered. He'd select women's clothes and I'd always let him into the women's dressing rooms to try them on. Some of my co-workers had a problem with this. Fortunately, I was their manager :P

Sweet man. All this time later I still wonder what became of him.

Yes, I'm seeing more and more unisex washrooms in Vancouver too. I don't see the problem. But the real issue is, of course, the rights of transgenered people. What they are proposing in Arizona - that people have to use the washroom that matches what's on their birth certificate - completely violates the rights of transgendered people IMO, and particularly those who have gone through sex changes. I don't even understand what they are trying to accomplish. Do they think that men would feel more comfortable with a transgendered person - basically a woman - using the men's washroom???? Or vice versa for women who have become men using the women's washroom?? It doesn't even make sense.

fife

Jason P wrote:

To be serious, I think this falls under the "tough crap" catagory for transgendered people. That may sound harsh, but as a women, would you want a man in the gym shower room with you, even if that person identifies as a female ... and this person is a complete stranger.

I think not.

to be honest most of the transgender people I know don't go into public showers because they don't feel comfortable.

PJ_Soul

fife wrote:

chadwick wrote:

hey miss... i know exactly what transgendering means. i feel a 6 year old boy has no business having his parents believing he is a girl truly and fully full blown female

I agree it is better that the parents tell her she is an idiot so when that child grows up she will be great inside. do you really think i child just one day says to his parents "eh, guess what, your litlle boy is a girl"

I work with alot of transgender people and let me tell you they are one of the worst treated people in our society.

#fact And definitely the least understood.

Jason P

fife wrote:

Jason P wrote:

To be serious, I think this falls under the "tough crap" catagory for transgendered people. That may sound harsh, but as a women, would you want a man in the gym shower room with you, even if that person identifies as a female ... and this person is a complete stranger.

I think not.

to be honest most of the transgender people I know don't go into public showers because they don't feel comfortable.

The biggest problem I see is men who are not transgender exploiting this clause.

Now a women coming into a men's shower ... I don't think most dudes will mind. :fp:

81

this would be a mute or is it moot...whatever...you figure it out...

point is

it's time to stop the segregation of restrooms....

PJ_Soul

Jason P wrote:

To be serious, I think this falls under the "tough crap" catagory for transgendered people. That may sound harsh, but as a women, would you want a man in the gym shower room with you, even if that person identifies as a female ... and this person is a complete stranger.

I think not.

I would not mind at all if a transgendered WOMAN shared the gym shower with me. I consider transgendered men women. I call them "she". Now how about you - would you feel comfortable with a transgendered man being in the shower with you? Perhaps someone who's moving towards or has already had a sex change? A "man" with breasts and possibly a vagina but maybe a penis? Because that's what you're suggesting would make more sense. Although frankly, I doubt there are many transgendered people who have had such a wonderfully smooth and harassment free life that they would be showering publicly anyway. Most of them, from what I can tell, are quite concerned about becoming targets in those kinds of situations.

81

Jason P wrote:

Now a women coming into a men's shower ... I don't think most dudes will mind. :fp:

depends on the woman

or maybe the guy is jovial

fife

Jason P wrote:

fife wrote:

Jason P wrote:

To be serious, I think this falls under the "tough crap" catagory for transgendered people. That may sound harsh, but as a women, would you want a man in the gym shower room with you, even if that person identifies as a female ... and this person is a complete stranger.

I think not.

to be honest most of the transgender people I know don't go into public showers because they don't feel comfortable.

The biggest problem I see is men who are not transgender exploiting this clause.

Now a women coming into a men's shower ... I don't think most dudes will mind. :fp:

I understand your point, but I just don't believe that many men will actually do that. the really solution to this problem is no more male or female designated washrooms. I don't understand why we can just have unisex washrooms as someone else mentioned already.

PJ_Soul

I'll also highlight the fact that these a-holes are suggesting that it would simply be up to police on whether or not they should charge women for using men's restrooms because of long lines... But if a "man" (actually woman!) is caught using a women's washroom they could go to prison for 6 months??! What about female transgendereds? Because I'm smelling a serious double-standard. There is just so much wrong crammed into this one little article I can hardly believe it.

PJ_Soul

81 wrote:

this would be a mute or is it moot...whatever...you figure it out...

point is

it's time to stop the segregation of restrooms....

(moot )

Unisex washroom are actually a bad idea IMO. The men would be subjected to line ups suddenly, and women would be subjected to men taking giant dumps in public.

fife

PJ_Soul wrote:

81 wrote:

this would be a mute or is it moot...whatever...you figure it out...

point is

it's time to stop the segregation of restrooms....

(moot )

Unisex washroom are actually a bad idea IMO. The men would be subjected to line ups suddenly, and women would be subjected to men taking giant dumps in public.

I find that many of my friends who are trans actually like the idea of unisex single stall washrooms. this whole conversation reminds me of when woman shelters in Toronto were trying to figure out how to deal with trans woman wanting to use their shelters. many were afraid that woman would be afraid but when they started letting trans woman into the shelter they soon saw that there was no problems.

PJ_Soul

fife wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

81 wrote:

this would be a mute or is it moot...whatever...you figure it out...

point is

it's time to stop the segregation of restrooms....

(moot )

Unisex washroom are actually a bad idea IMO. The men would be subjected to line ups suddenly, and women would be subjected to men taking giant dumps in public.

I find that many of my friends who are trans actually like the idea of unisex single stall washrooms. this whole conversation reminds me of when woman shelters in Toronto were trying to figure out how to deal with trans woman wanting to use their shelters. many were afraid that woman would be afraid but when they started letting trans woman into the shelter they soon saw that there was no problems.

Yeah, trans people do like the idea of unisex (I know a few myself) ... Just not my preference. I certainly don't care if I come across one. Just would rather it didn't become the norm. And I really can't see how men could be on board with them... women take way too long compared to the them, stay too long at the mirrors, etc. Doesn't really seem fair to the guys.

chadwick

PJ_Soul wrote:

I'll also highlight the fact that these a-holes are suggesting that it would simply be up to police on whether or not they should charge women for using men's restrooms because of long lines... But if a "man" (actually woman!) is caught using a women's washroom they could go to prison for 6 months??! What about female transgendereds? Because I'm smelling a serious double-standard. There is just so much wrong crammed into this one little article I can hardly believe it.

?say what

PJ_Soul

chadwick wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

I'll also highlight the fact that these a-holes are suggesting that it would simply be up to police on whether or not they should charge women for using men's restrooms because of long lines... But if a "man" (actually woman!) is caught using a women's washroom they could go to prison for 6 months??! What about female transgendereds? Because I'm smelling a serious double-standard. There is just so much wrong crammed into this one little article I can hardly believe it.

?say what

What are you confused about?
I'm referring to this part of the article:

"For a handful of people to make everyone else uncomfortable just makes no sense."

But, Mr Kavanagh added, police would be allowed to use their discretion over whether to press charges if women used the men's room to avoid a long queue.