minimum wage (part II)

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  • Posts: 18,341
    edited March 2013
    MotoDC wrote:
    show previous quotes
    Vive le france!

    ;) jk I have no idea where you live.

    I'd have a few more holidays in France! :mrgreen:

    Working the 32.5 hours is my choice but it is only 1/2hour a day short of full time. From some posts here, I guess I'm just not 'up to it' and hard working enough!

    But... I have a life.
    Post edited by redrock on
  • Posts: 16,881
    Last-12-Exit wrote:

    Economist Walter Williams said "It is important to note that most people acquire work skills by working at “subnormal wages” which amounts to the same thing as paying to learn. For example, inexperienced doctors (interns), during their training, work at wages which are a tiny fraction of that of trained doctors. College students forego considerable amounts of money in the form of tuition and foregone income so that they may develop marketable skills. It is ironic, if not tragic, that low skilled youths from poor families are denied an opportunity to get a start in life. This is exactly what happens when a high minimum wage forbids low skilled workers to pay for job training in the form of a lower beginning wage."

    People must have the right to offer their services in the marketplace for whatever price they choose, whether they are workers serving employers or businesses serving consumers. It is by this process that productivity, wage rates, and prosperity are maximized. Government has no more business objecting to a low wage rate for a menial job than it has objecting to a business that offers its services or products for a low price. Government intervention in these matters distorts economic decision-making

    This is merely speculative fluff and misleading to say the least. There's a light at the end of the tunnel for the intern: the internship is merely in a holding pattern and jumping through one hoop before becoming licensed and making the big bucks.

    "It is ironic, if not tragic, that low skilled youths from poor families are denied an opportunity to get a start in life." What a crock of shit. The irony here is the fact that Williams utters this statement while defending the right to pay workers like shit so they can advance in life. Apparently Williams doesn't understand the costs associated with attending a university and procuring a degree that might be a stepping stone to a job that pays significantly? How is a kid from an impoverished family supposed to generate these funds working for shit wages and when his family can offer nothing- paying bills and living day-to-day while earning shit wages as well?

    Lastly... the world is rampant with examples of exploited workers. While some companies will operate with a minimum level of ethics, most would just as soon shit all over their baseline workers- especially when not motivated to compete with other organizations who also take advantage of lax occupational laws.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Posts: 16,881
    Last-12-Exit wrote:
    Suppose you run a small business and have to pay a minimum wage. Three people apply for a job opening a Black, a Hispanic, and a White. Now, you must pay all of them the same wage, at the point of a government gun stuck in your ribs. Which one of them will you hire?
    Anyone would hire the most desirable one. The one where you get the most for the money you are spending. Typically, all things being equal, you will choose to hire first the White, then the Hispanic, lastly the Black.
    Notice, Black has no effective way to fight for the job. He cannot, under the various Federal and State laws, including the minimum wage law, that relate to workers, say:
    "Look sir, I am Black and I know you might rather hire a White or Hispanic, but I am a good worker and want a chance to prove myself, therefore, in order to get you to give me this job, I will work for a dollar less per hour, and put in unpaid overtime to help the business, and myself, because I know that once you get used to my good work, you will value me more, and that in order to keep me you will pay me more in due time, until I will make what the others make in order to keep a good worker like me. This will get me started, and I will get good experience here and be able to move on up, even if you don’t want to pay more to keep me, someone else will.”
    This transaction, where the minority workers can realistically compete to get a piece of the pie, is totally illegal by federal and most state law, enforced at gunpoint.
    These minimum wage, and other workplace laws are, in effect, discriminatory against all sorts of minority workers including women, hispanics, catholics, jews, persons with disabilities, and just about anyone other than the cream of the crop, most prefered, workers.
    These laws totally benefit the fair haired boys, and girls, at the expense of everyone else. It hurts the Black worker in partiticular and protects his already favored White worker competitors.
    By FounderChurch

    Anyone would hire the most desirable one. The one where you get the most for the money you are spending. Typically, all things being equal, you will choose to hire first the White, then the Hispanic, lastly the Black.

    Offensive. And why there are discrimination laws in effect. Do you wish to do away with these laws as well so that the undesirable workers can work for shit and prove themselves the equal of a white, fair-haired worker?

    The arguments you have presented for a lower minimum wage are digressing. History itself has shown the propensity for companies to exploit the worker. Industrial Revolution serves as an extreme example. Sweat shops serve as a more modern example.

    Leaving the wages to be set by the employer would have disastrous results. Obviously.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Posts: 18,341
    Last-12-Exit wrote:
    Anyone would hire the most desirable one. The one where you get the most for the money you are spending. Typically, all things being equal, you will choose to hire first the White, then the Hispanic, lastly the Black.

    I find your whole post perplexing but the above even more so. The most desirable candidate is White and desirability decreases as skin colour increases????

    Then this...
    Last-12-Exit wrote:

    Black has no effective way to fight for the job. He cannot, under the various Federal and State laws, including the minimum wage law, that relate to workers, say:
    "Look sir, I am Black and I know you might rather hire a White or Hispanic, but I am a good worker and want a chance to prove myself, therefore, in order to get you to give me this job, I will work for a dollar less per hour, and put in unpaid overtime to help the business........

    So the darker the skin, the cheaper you have to sell yourself?


    I'm flabbergasted. Don't know what kind of point you are trying to make (apart sell yourself cheaply to get a job) but bringing race into it? If not you making these assumptions (because you saw this on some other site), but perpetrating this?

    I guess I must be missing something :?
  • Charleston, SC Posts: 8,661
    redrock wrote:
    show previous quotes

    I find your whole post perplexing but the above even more so. The most desirable candidate is White and desirability decreases as skin colour increases????

    Then this...
    show previous quotes

    So the darker the skin, the cheaper you have to sell yourself?


    I'm flabbergasted. Don't know what kind of point you are trying to make (apart sell yourself cheaply to get a job) but bringing race into it? If not you making these assumptions (because you saw this on some other site), but perpetrating this?

    I guess I must be missing something :?

    That post is merely one example of why minimum wage laws dont work. The author or that post used race, but you can substitute the white guy, the Hispanic and the black guy with a 48 yr old male, a 24 yr old woman, and a 30 male. The concept still applies.
  • Posts: 24,524
    Last-12-Exit wrote:
    That post is merely one example of why minimum wage laws dont work. The author or that post used race, but you can substitute the white guy, the Hispanic and the black guy with a 48 yr old male, a 24 yr old woman, and a 30 male. The concept still applies.
    I don't see how, in that (and obviously depending on the type of job) there'd be a disparity of experience between someone who's 24 vs one who's 48. That wouldn't be an "all things being equal" scenario.

    I'd think the majority of people want the best-qualified person working for/with them. Anyone who'd hire someone based more heavily on race, gender, age, etc. than ability is doing themselves and their company a disservice.
  • Posts: 16,881
    Last-12-Exit wrote:
    That post is merely one example of why minimum wage laws dont work. The author or that post used race, but you can substitute the white guy, the Hispanic and the black guy with a 48 yr old male, a 24 yr old woman, and a 30 male. The concept still applies.

    No. The post never explained why minimum wage laws don't work. If anything... it argued for minimum wage laws because it points out the fact that immoral attitudes exist within some companies and given the chance to act without ethics... they will.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • Posts: 18,341
    Your 'concept' is non- existent. One hires the most desirable candidate. The one best suited for the job - the best match to the requirements. Disregarding selling yourself cheap, no two candidates will be 100% equal. There will always be something to make one more 'desirable' than the other, whether skill, personality, etc.
  • Charleston, SC Posts: 8,661
    Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:
    show previous quotes

    No. The post never explained why minimum wage laws don't work. If anything... it argued for minimum wage laws because it points out the fact that immoral attitudes exist within some companies and given the chance to act without ethics... they will.

    My mistake, poor phrasing. Its an argument against the minimum wage laws.
  • up my ass Posts: 21,157
    if marijuana were legal straight across the board we would not be having this debate as our government & all of us included would not be in large debt. fields of hemp should be growing for fabrics & things. marijuana farmers & marijuana shops booming would create jobs, invent unique thoughts & inspire new traditions & bring us out of this gloomy ass state of affairs

    many are scared to even give marijuana a god damn chance. being scared of a mild & calming flowering plant is pretty crazy. many be believing the marijuana plant = cocaine plants in brazil
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."
    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • West Seattle Posts: 10,724
    chadwick wrote:
    if marijuana were legal straight across the board we would not be having this debate as our government & all of us included would not be in large debt. fields of hemp should be growing for fabrics & things. marijuana farmers & marijuana shops booming would create jobs, invent unique thoughts & inspire new traditions & bring us out of this gloomy ass state of affairs

    many are scared to even give marijuana a god damn chance. being scared of a mild & calming flowering plant is pretty crazy. many be believing the marijuana plant = cocaine plants in brazil

    Not to derail the thread but the WA state govt is insane with the taxation plan that will come forward. No one will be paying the high prices to buy it from a store.

    The whole hemp thing is ridiculous though. We should have been using this forever.
    NERDS!
  • up my ass Posts: 21,157
    i wouldn't buy weed legally if it were $200 a 1/4 bag. no. they could be selling 1/4 for $50 all day & all night long 365 days a year & make soooo much $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ their heads would be spinning

    but nooooo let's give our jobs to overseas countries as well as we'll need our marijuana from mexico & canada & elsewhere screwing over our talented farmers in our own flippin back yard
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."
    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • Charleston, SC Posts: 8,661
    chadwick wrote:
    i wouldn't buy weed legally if it were $200 a 1/4 bag. no. they could be selling 1/4 for $50 all day & all night long 365 days a year & make soooo much $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ their heads would be spinning

    but nooooo let's give our jobs to overseas countries as well as we'll need our marijuana from mexico & canada & elsewhere screwing over our talented farmers in our own flippin back yard

    And why are we losing jobs to overseas markets? In part, because of the minimum wage laws in this country.
  • Posts: 1,952
    Last-12-Exit wrote:
    show previous quotes

    And why are we losing jobs to overseas markets? In part, because of the minimum wage laws in this country.

    Complaints about "losing jobs" to workers overseas always bug me. It seems so self-centered. I mean I would way rather be unemployed in the US or Canada, than be unemployed in Indonesia or China or Mexico. People in those countries need jobs too.
  • up my ass Posts: 21,157
    Last-12-Exit wrote:
    show previous quotes

    And why are we losing jobs to overseas markets? In part, because of the minimum wage laws in this country.
    and because people like mr. mitt romney buying up failing companies here & taking business to china or wherever where people work slave labor & they love it or they are basically forced to or are practicually starving so they will work long hours for small wages as mitt romney & his screw ball asshole buddies share in a tidal wave of green backs & gold coin
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."
    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • up my ass Posts: 21,157
    don't ya take care of your immediate ppl first?
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."
    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • Posts: 3,353
    chadwick wrote:
    don't ya take care of your immediate ppl first?

    for arguments sake, I live in Minnesota, I have slightly more connection in life to someone who lives in Florida than I do to someone who lives in Indonesia.
    that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
    It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
    - Joe Rogan
  • Charleston, SC Posts: 8,661
    Kel Varnsen wrote:
    show previous quotes

    Complaints about "losing jobs" to workers overseas always bug me. It seems so self-centered. I mean I would way rather be unemployed in the US or Canada, than be unemployed in Indonesia or China or Mexico. People in those countries need jobs too.


    I would rather not be unemployed at all because my company gave my job to someone in China.
  • Posts: 1,952
    Last-12-Exit wrote:
    show previous quotes


    I would rather not be unemployed at all because my company gave my job to someone in China.

    What makes it "your job" and not just a job?
  • Posts: 6,363
    Last-12-Exit wrote:
    show previous quotes

    And why are we losing jobs to overseas markets? In part, because of the minimum wage laws in this country.

    No, because republicans kept in place tax cuts for companies exporting jobs. Really, your ideas with minimum wage laws are just outrageous.
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