Eddie Vedder and "unnecessary war"

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Comments

  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    unsung wrote:
    I didn't see anyone mention the one thing that would keep us out of more wars. That is having Congress declare war according to the Constitution. If you made these people actually record a vote I think you'd see less of it, because they'd be the ones having to face their districts and explain why they want to keep sending our troops into conflicts. Sometime there is a good reason, so declare it, do your business, and get out. Enough of these 10+ year occupations where we no longer are there for the initial reason.

    Oh and I hate John McCain. POS.
    Think its very easy to get Americans to support another war, some slight of hand, few chants of USA USA and show someone with different skin color and or religion and we'll be backing them up with God and liberty. I say, have each congressman have a family member go to the front line as a Marine and that would solve it. :D

    As to McCain, I had some respect for the guy, had street cred for being POV, but he's just gone looney of late.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    hedonist wrote:
    Attaway77 wrote:
    "And deciding being a soldier is something I can not imagine coming from a sane mind and soul. And then I should feel sorry for their trauma? Well, apparently, the government gives a shit about their trauma. That is another problem, I see that. But on the other hand: You went to war for your country? Well, then deal with the consequences!"

    What a shit thing to say.....
    After re-reading this thread (initial and corrected posts, anyway - and don't ask me WHY I re-read), I have to echo this sentiment.

    Whether anyone feels war is "necessary" or not, I find it a huge slap in the face of every man and woman who've literally put themselves on the front-line with the best of intent.

    Deal with the consequences, my ass.
    No matter how chivalrous and charitable an action may be, humans do things for themselves, not for anyone else. If a human wants to join the Army, they do it because of their wants and needs, NOT to protect the motherland or some other noble cause.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • supersonicyears
    supersonicyears Posts: 2,619
    callen wrote:
    hedonist wrote:
    Attaway77 wrote:
    "And deciding being a soldier is something I can not imagine coming from a sane mind and soul. And then I should feel sorry for their trauma? Well, apparently, the government gives a shit about their trauma. That is another problem, I see that. But on the other hand: You went to war for your country? Well, then deal with the consequences!"

    What a shit thing to say.....
    After re-reading this thread (initial and corrected posts, anyway - and don't ask me WHY I re-read), I have to echo this sentiment.

    Whether anyone feels war is "necessary" or not, I find it a huge slap in the face of every man and woman who've literally put themselves on the front-line with the best of intent.

    Deal with the consequences, my ass.
    No matter how chivalrous and charitable an action may be, humans do things for themselves, not for anyone else. If a human wants to join the Army, they do it because of their wants and needs, NOT to protect the motherland or some other noble cause.

    Well, you're wrong.
    "In the age of darkness
    want to be enlightened"
  • Cosmo
    Cosmo Posts: 12,225
    unsung wrote:
    I didn't see anyone mention the one thing that would keep us out of more wars. That is having Congress declare war according to the Constitution. If you made these people actually record a vote I think you'd see less of it, because they'd be the ones having to face their districts and explain why they want to keep sending our troops into conflicts. Sometime there is a good reason, so declare it, do your business, and get out. Enough of these 10+ year occupations where we no longer are there for the initial reason.

    Oh and I hate John McCain. POS.
    ...
    That is what got us into Iraq... Congress, handing over the War Powers act to the Executive branch. An act of cowardice on the part of OUR representatives because they were afraid of the political fallout of their decisions.
    ...
    P.S. I don't hate Sen. McCain... I completely disagree with him on most matters these days... but, I still honor and respect his service in the military.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • callen
    callen Posts: 6,388
    I don't think I'm wrong....its about the warm and fuzzy's one gets by doing something for someone else. Not a bad thing...it just is what it is. I'm glad people have need to help others...helps us as a society. I'm guilty, just know where the drive is coming from.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    callen wrote:
    I don't think I'm wrong....its about the warm and fuzzy's one gets by doing something for someone else. Not a bad thing...it just is what it is. I'm glad people have need to help others...helps us as a society. I'm guilty, just know where the drive is coming from.
    Actually, I think you're assuming where everyone's drive is coming from. How can you know someone else's true intent?

    Of course one of the motives is to feel better about oneself; it's natural - as with charity, for instance: The act of giving makes me feel wonderful, but that feeling is a by-product of the act and not necessarily the cause of action itself.

    That feel-good deal (using your term, as I find it odd to apply it to the battlefield) isn't THE motive, and it discounts - to me, anyway - the courage and yes, nobleness as well, of willing to put your life on the line to protect that of others.
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,677
    hedonist wrote:
    callen wrote:
    I don't think I'm wrong....its about the warm and fuzzy's one gets by doing something for someone else. Not a bad thing...it just is what it is. I'm glad people have need to help others...helps us as a society. I'm guilty, just know where the drive is coming from.
    Actually, I think you're assuming where everyone's drive is coming from. How can you know someone else's true intent?

    Of course one of the motives is to feel better about oneself; it's natural - as with charity, for instance: The act of giving makes me feel wonderful, but that feeling is a by-product of the act and not necessarily the cause of action itself.

    That feel-good deal (using your term, as I find it odd to apply it to the battlefield) isn't THE motive, and it discounts - to me, anyway - the courage and yes, nobleness as well, of willing to put your life on the line to protect that of others.

    You know, I'm always a bit hesitant to disagree with you, hedonist, because I suspect you're smarter than I am, but I seriously doubt the motivation of the average enlistee is courage, nobleness, bravery and so forth. I suspect the motivations more often than not include uncertainty regarding career choice, education and training benefits, a means to legally act out violence, and bravado (which is not the same as bravery). Also, I don't believe most military actions taken by the industrialized nations are carried out with the intention to protect others or for defensive purposes.

    So, like I said, I don't support war or military enlistment. If a young person makes the choice to enlist and comes back from the horrors of war I believe that young man or woman should receive support and care and maybe an opportunity to serve in a peaceful roll.

    And while we're on that subject, why do we so seldom hear about giving support to peacekeepers? Why is it always about the warriors? What about those who put their lives on the line for peace? I want to hear more about that.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    brianlux wrote:
    hedonist wrote:
    Actually, I think you're assuming where everyone's drive is coming from. How can you know someone else's true intent?

    Of course one of the motives is to feel better about oneself; it's natural - as with charity, for instance: The act of giving makes me feel wonderful, but that feeling is a by-product of the act and not necessarily the cause of action itself.

    That feel-good deal (using your term, as I find it odd to apply it to the battlefield) isn't THE motive, and it discounts - to me, anyway - the courage and yes, nobleness as well, of willing to put your life on the line to protect that of others.

    You know, I'm always a bit hesitant to disagree with you, hedonist, because I suspect you're smarter than I am, but I seriously doubt the motivation of the average enlistee is courage, nobleness, bravery and so forth. I suspect the motivations more often than not include uncertainty regarding career choice, education and training benefits, a means to legally act out violence, and bravado (which is not the same as bravery). Also, I don't believe most military actions taken by the industrialized nations are carried out with the intention to protect others or for defensive purposes.

    So, like I said, I don't support war or military enlistment. If a young person makes the choice to enlist and comes back from the horrors of war I believe that young man or woman should receive support and care and maybe an opportunity to serve in a peaceful roll.

    And while we're on that subject, why do we so seldom hear about giving support to peacekeepers? Why is it always about the warriors? What about those who put their lives on the line for peace? I want to hear more about that.
    Brian, I'm no smarter than the average bear ;)

    Please feel free to continue to speak your mind with me; that goes with everyone here.

    Sure there are many reasons one would enlist and the ones you described are valid - they exist. I just feel it's unfair to apply them to most. Also, I suppose I was looking more toward the "older warriors" like my dad. I'm fairly certain some of his motivation was to kick some ass, but the intent behind it?

    Good by me.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    there is no such thing as necessary war ... saying there is - is a kin to saying we can solve domestic issues with violence or property disputes with violence ...
  • lukin2006
    lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    polaris_x wrote:
    there is no such thing as necessary war ... saying there is - is a kin to saying we can solve domestic issues with violence or property disputes with violence ...

    No! So how about when a madman like Hitler when he rises to power? How would you have propose to stop him?
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    lukin2006 wrote:
    No! So how about when a madman like Hitler when he rises to power? How would you have propose to stop him?

    it's different times ... we have an international criminal court ... nearly every country is a signatory to it ... we have international organizations now to settle trade disputes and what not ...
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,677
    hedonist wrote:
    brianlux wrote:
    hedonist wrote:
    Actually, I think you're assuming where everyone's drive is coming from. How can you know someone else's true intent?

    Of course one of the motives is to feel better about oneself; it's natural - as with charity, for instance: The act of giving makes me feel wonderful, but that feeling is a by-product of the act and not necessarily the cause of action itself.

    That feel-good deal (using your term, as I find it odd to apply it to the battlefield) isn't THE motive, and it discounts - to me, anyway - the courage and yes, nobleness as well, of willing to put your life on the line to protect that of others.

    You know, I'm always a bit hesitant to disagree with you, hedonist, because I suspect you're smarter than I am, but I seriously doubt the motivation of the average enlistee is courage, nobleness, bravery and so forth. I suspect the motivations more often than not include uncertainty regarding career choice, education and training benefits, a means to legally act out violence, and bravado (which is not the same as bravery). Also, I don't believe most military actions taken by the industrialized nations are carried out with the intention to protect others or for defensive purposes.

    So, like I said, I don't support war or military enlistment. If a young person makes the choice to enlist and comes back from the horrors of war I believe that young man or woman should receive support and care and maybe an opportunity to serve in a peaceful roll.

    And while we're on that subject, why do we so seldom hear about giving support to peacekeepers? Why is it always about the warriors? What about those who put their lives on the line for peace? I want to hear more about that.
    Brian, I'm no smarter than the average bear ;)

    Please feel free to continue to speak your mind with me; that goes with everyone here.

    Sure there are many reasons one would enlist and the ones you described are valid - they exist. I just feel it's unfair to apply them to most. Also, I suppose I was looking more toward the "older warriors" like my dad. I'm fairly certain some of his motivation was to kick some ass, but the intent behind it?

    Good by me.

    My dad was in the Navy during World War II. He served in the Soloman Islands as an aircraft mechanic. He didn't engage in actual but was there to fight in a war but I don't think those guys had all the information we have today about what goes on behind the scenes. For example, I don't think he knew that some of Hitler's wealth and power came from us- we enabled that crazy bastard. So yes, I do think the intent of warriors back then was different but I don't think the intent of the war itself was as black and white as our class-room history books would have us believe.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • lukin2006
    lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    polaris_x wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    No! So how about when a madman like Hitler when he rises to power? How would you have propose to stop him?

    it's different times ... we have an international criminal court ... nearly every country is a signatory to it ... we have international organizations now to settle trade disputes and what not ...

    Do you think Hitler would have used those process's?
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    lukin2006 wrote:
    Do you think Hitler would have used those process's?

    frig ... why not bring in genghis khan and stalin at the same time!? ...

    like i said - we live in different times ...
  • lukin2006
    lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    polaris_x wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    Do you think Hitler would have used those process's?

    frig ... why not bring in genghis khan and stalin at the same time!? ...

    like i said - we live in different times ...

    no we don't ... seems to me just as many evil people in the world today as then ... and some of them are even in control of countries ... may be a different year still the same old shit, on maybe a smaller scale. I certainly think its possible another crazy can rise to power with the similar intentions as Hitler or some of the past madmen ... somehow I don't think these madmen much care about international courts.

    You said "there is no such thing as necessary war ... you never said today there should be no such thing as war". And as far as I'm concerned as long as people continue to live on this earth there all always be wars, and probably someday there will be WW3 ... humans are evil on a much larger scale than most want to admit.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • riotgrl
    riotgrl LOUISVILLE Posts: 1,895
    lukin2006 wrote:
    polaris_x wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    No! So how about when a madman like Hitler when he rises to power? How would you have propose to stop him?

    it's different times ... we have an international criminal court ... nearly every country is a signatory to it ... we have international organizations now to settle trade disputes and what not ...

    Do you think Hitler would have used those process's?

    There were many opportunities that could have been taken to stop Hitler before it became all out world war. The choice was not to take those actions.
    Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?

    Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...

    I AM MINE
  • lukin2006
    lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    riotgrl wrote:

    There were many opportunities that could have been taken to stop Hitler before it became all out world war. The choice was not to take those actions.

    There might have been some opportunities ... but I would say by how advance their military machinery was and by how big it was ... would suggest a peaceful outcome was unlikely.

    I guess we could go back to the end of WW1 and maybe the treaty Germany signed lead to the rise of Hitler. Unfortunately the world is loaded with crazies and some even control countries.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    lukin2006 wrote:
    no we don't ... seems to me just as many evil people in the world today as then ... and some of them are even in control of countries ... may be a different year still the same old shit, on maybe a smaller scale. I certainly think its possible another crazy can rise to power with the similar intentions as Hitler or some of the past madmen ... somehow I don't think these madmen much care about international courts.

    You said "there is no such thing as necessary war ... you never said today there should be no such thing as war". And as far as I'm concerned as long as people continue to live on this earth there all always be wars, and probably someday there will be WW3 ... humans are evil on a much larger scale than most want to admit.

    you're right in that there is definitely evil ... but evil comes in many forms and the notion that they are these adolf hitlers waiting in the wings doesn't take into consideration the world we currently live in ... heck - one of the key drivers associated with the arab spring was an online community of hackers ... information is more widely available now then before ... nation states are reliant on corporations and other countries for survival ... you simply just can't invade another country these days ...
  • Staceb10
    Staceb10 Posts: 675
    Attaway77 wrote:
    "And deciding being a soldier is something I can not imagine coming from a sane mind and soul. And then I should feel sorry for their trauma? Well, apparently, the government gives a shit about their trauma. That is another problem, I see that. But on the other hand: You went to war for your country? Well, then deal with the consequences!"

    What a shit thing to say.....


    I completely agree. I'd rather my tax money go to help soliders than give deadbeats free cell phones. And I know with all the peace, love and happiness over here (won't even fight to protect your own family???) I'm sure this comment will get me blasted (or banned) but as the mother of someone in the Middle East right now protecting the OP's right to be voice his opinion, I hope a veteran catches you in a dark alley one night.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Staceb10 wrote:
    I completely agree. I'd rather my tax money go to help soliders than give deadbeats free cell phones. And I know with all the peace, love and happiness over here (won't even fight to protect your own family???) I'm sure this comment will get me blasted (or banned) but as the mother of someone in the Middle East right now protecting the OP's right to be voice his opinion, I hope a veteran catches you in a dark alley one night.

    do you really think your son is there to fight for freedom?

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