Eddie Vedder and "unnecessary war"
GetALife
Posts: 563
From here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=200247
"Ed thanks the audience and says it has been a pleasure playing for them tonight. He goes on to talk about the “Wounded Warriors” project. He talks about the friends of his that are soldiers and says, “We can be anti-war but pro soldier. People try to turn it around and say it is unpatriotic. But it is clear that we are anti-unnecessary war and we want our soldiers to be taken care of and supported. He mentions all the soldiers that are wounded. He says that for every one soldier that is killed over seas another ten commit suicide."
Well, that is the thing I mostly disagree with when Ed talks politics. Talking about "unnecessary war" is saying that there is *necessary war*. That's my conclusion from his words. So, if this conclusion is right, I can say that being "anti-soldier" is a way of PEACE and being "pro soldier" is a way of promoting WAR. I mean, a soldier needs a reason to be a soldier right?* - I do not see any difference in WAR, when WAR is WAR because it is always WAR. "What is it good for? Absolutely nothing!" Does Eddie mean it? I start to doubt it. Defending this campaign against people who claim it is "unpatriotic" is something I do not understand. Because - and I already said it somewhere else in this forum (with different words, I know) - patriotism CAUSES WAR. - - - *There was a smart guy in german literature from last century, Kurt Tucholsky, who said this (not only under the impression of WW II): "Soldaten sind Mörder" - "Soldiers are murderers".
"Ed thanks the audience and says it has been a pleasure playing for them tonight. He goes on to talk about the “Wounded Warriors” project. He talks about the friends of his that are soldiers and says, “We can be anti-war but pro soldier. People try to turn it around and say it is unpatriotic. But it is clear that we are anti-unnecessary war and we want our soldiers to be taken care of and supported. He mentions all the soldiers that are wounded. He says that for every one soldier that is killed over seas another ten commit suicide."
Well, that is the thing I mostly disagree with when Ed talks politics. Talking about "unnecessary war" is saying that there is *necessary war*. That's my conclusion from his words. So, if this conclusion is right, I can say that being "anti-soldier" is a way of PEACE and being "pro soldier" is a way of promoting WAR. I mean, a soldier needs a reason to be a soldier right?* - I do not see any difference in WAR, when WAR is WAR because it is always WAR. "What is it good for? Absolutely nothing!" Does Eddie mean it? I start to doubt it. Defending this campaign against people who claim it is "unpatriotic" is something I do not understand. Because - and I already said it somewhere else in this forum (with different words, I know) - patriotism CAUSES WAR. - - - *There was a smart guy in german literature from last century, Kurt Tucholsky, who said this (not only under the impression of WW II): "Soldaten sind Mörder" - "Soldiers are murderers".
2000: Hamburg
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2007: Munich * Düsseldorf
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2010: Dublin * Belfast * Berlin
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2022: Berlin- Vienna - Prague - Amsterdam I - Amsterdam II #
2024: Berlin I & II
~~~
“It is curious that while good people go to great lengths to spare their children from suffering, few of them seem to notice that the one (and only) guaranteed way to prevent all the suffering of their children is not to bring those children into existence in the first place.”
― David Benatar - Better Never to Have Been: The Harm of Coming into Existence
2006: Berlin
2007: Munich * Düsseldorf
2009: Berlin * Manchester * London
2010: Dublin * Belfast * Berlin
2012: Amsterdam I & II * Berlin I & II * Stockholm * Oslo * Copenhagen
EV 2012: Amsterdam I & II
2014: Amsterdam I & II * Milan * Trieste * Vienna * Berlin
EV 2017: Berlin
2018: Amsterdam I & II * Prague * Krakow * Berlin
2022: Berlin- Vienna - Prague - Amsterdam I - Amsterdam II #
2024: Berlin I & II
~~~
“It is curious that while good people go to great lengths to spare their children from suffering, few of them seem to notice that the one (and only) guaranteed way to prevent all the suffering of their children is not to bring those children into existence in the first place.”
― David Benatar - Better Never to Have Been: The Harm of Coming into Existence
Post edited by Unknown User on
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Comments
First off, I agree with your view, if there were no soldiers, there would be no war.
Unfortunately, we live in a world where greed is boundless and benefits from war. Since there are wars, we have to face the consequences of it. The main consequence, death and injury.
I understand the view that supports the soldier, but not the war. The soldier does not get to decide, the politicians make those decisions, based upon whatever their intentions. It is said that no one prays for peace more than the soldier who prepares for war.
Next, I don't think it is patriotism that causes war.... it is the misconception that militarism is patriotism. Politicians will use patriotism as justification for war, but so often, it in not rooted in patriotism and more likely a lust for power and resources to feed greed and selfishness.
Lastly... I wish there were no reason to fund organizations such as 'Wounded Warrior'. but, truth is, there is.
Hail, Hail!!!
I mean, I am not blind. I know about people going to the army because they think they can feed their kids with the salary and promote themselves for a better future in college or for whatever. It's just human wanting to live a good life and do what you can to make it good with the opportunities you get. - But, let's be honest. This whole fucking thing called manhood and what it's worth and where it's heading to is based on the little decisions made by everyone every second of their lifes, over and over again. And deciding being a soldier is something I can not imagine coming from a sane mind and soul. And then I should feel sorry for their trauma? Well, apparently, the government gives a shit about their trauma. That is another problem, I see that. But on the other hand: You went to war for your country? Well, then deal with the consequences! A country is nothing that is worth to kill someone for. Don't tell me you believed that in the first place...please. ... "I am a patriot, and I love my country, because my country is all I know" - And everything you don't know you just blow away. Well done. Suicide is also an individual decision. It's not sadder than what they've probably done abroad in the wars they were engaging in. Maybe it's an equation they solved for themselves by subtracting their 'bodies of war' out of this world. But I am sure: (Self-)Forgiveness is better than a bullet. Everyone is making mistakes. Admitting is a start. But, Eddie, if you are reading this, please don't fool me with this term "(un)necessary war". No one will ever learn from history if we keep disguising the ugly truth with words like that.
2006: Berlin
2007: Munich * Düsseldorf
2009: Berlin * Manchester * London
2010: Dublin * Belfast * Berlin
2012: Amsterdam I & II * Berlin I & II * Stockholm * Oslo * Copenhagen
EV 2012: Amsterdam I & II
2014: Amsterdam I & II * Milan * Trieste * Vienna * Berlin
EV 2017: Berlin
2018: Amsterdam I & II * Prague * Krakow * Berlin
2022: Berlin- Vienna - Prague - Amsterdam I - Amsterdam II #
2024: Berlin I & II
~~~
“It is curious that while good people go to great lengths to spare their children from suffering, few of them seem to notice that the one (and only) guaranteed way to prevent all the suffering of their children is not to bring those children into existence in the first place.”
― David Benatar - Better Never to Have Been: The Harm of Coming into Existence
Like Viet Nam... from the perspective of the Vietnamese.
If a military force comes acrosss the ocean to your homeland and tries to impose their will upon you... you have two options... submit to thier will or fight.
From the French and American points of view... it was not necessary.
Hail, Hail!!!
So there are two things I do not support at all:
One: WAR. In my opinion, modern war is wrong. The only kind of war that makes sense to me is some versions of American Indian inter-tribal wars where the object was to show bravery and count coup- whack the other guy with a stick and you win. Not my thing, but within the realm of what I would consider acceptable. Modern war is carried out by incinerating, shooting, torturing, maiming and brutalizing other humans- often innocent civilians as well as destroying culture and nature. Not acceptable.
Two: Enlistment in the service. I would never encourage a young person to enlist in the service. I would try very hard to discourage any young person I knew who wanted to do that.
What a shit thing to say.....
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E.V. - 2008 Berkeley (4/8) 2012 Austin (11/9,11/12)
Temple of the Dog - 2016 Upper Darby
There was war before America....and there will be war after America!
War is ugly, although necessary...and it seems Eddie is finally catching on!
Seriously, almost every war that I have learned about was necessary. Do you all think that going to Afganistan after 9/11 was unnecessary? Cmon WOW
I can empathize with you if you believe Iraq was unnecessary, but If I empathize with you on that one, why cant you admit that we needed to go to Afganistan after 9/11?
You think Hitler didnt need taken out? How about our civil war?
There are many conflicts around the world, and there always will be. The best defense....is a deterrent!
If we were weak.....people would have brought armies here to attack us. FACT!
Also, a uniformed soldier in uniform fighting under the Geneva Conventions against another army, or organization that is deemed an enemy, is not a murderer. He is a soldier, fighting for the army and the causes of justice, freedom, liberty and liberation.
An example of tomorrow's soldiers actions being just and necessary would be North Korea attacked South Korea and they asked us, or wanted us to come help them. Another example is if China would attack Tiawon and wanted to take them over, and we defended them. Another example would be if Iran attacked Israel and they needed help! Many example of weak nations needing help from larger aggressors. Even Eddie now sees it! THERE IS HOPE!
A man that stands for nothing....will fall for anything!
All people need to do more on every level!
You devastated their country and killed 2 million people. Why would they thank you for that?
Yes, I do. You don't arrest criminals by dropping bombs on a country.
So the U.S soldiers who massacred 24 unarmed civilians in Haditha (to give just one example) were 'fighting' for the causes of justice, freedom, liberty and liberation?
http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/01/31/ ... -massacre/
On November 19, 2005, US Marines from Kilo Company, Third Battalion, First Marine Division killed 24 unarmed civilians in Haditha, Iraq, execution-style, in a three to five hour rampage. One victim was a 76-year-old amputee in a wheelchair holding a Koran. A mother and child bent over as if in prayer were also among the fallen. “I pretended that I was dead when my brother’s body fell on me and he was bleeding like a faucet,” said Safa Younis Salim, a 13-year-old girl who survived by faking her death. Other victims included six children ranging in age from 1 to 14. Citing doctors at Haditha’s hospital, The Washington Post reported, “Most of the shots … were fired at such close range that they went through the bodies of the family members and plowed into walls or the floor.”
and anti-soldier equals pacifism.
We live in a complex world, and it's this type of dichotomous/dualistic thinking that is the basis of war - whether it's between two people or two nations.
I cannot speak for other nations outside America, but in this county, I can say that a majority of soldiers come from working class and/or poverty stricken socioeconomic backgrounds and have very few, if any, other options. (And I'm not saying ALL soldiers come from poor backgrounds, but a majority do because we live in a classist world).
I am a pacifist and I love my friends and relatives who have served because I get that life is not that simple. They do not deserve to take their own lives. That's just a cold, mean thing to say, and says way more about you as a person than any viewpoint you're trying to get across.
My father (and I know there were - still are though in different circumstances - many others) chose, as a young German immigrant, to serve in the US Army as most of his family was captured/killed during the Holocaust. His aim was far from nuts, and I'll say that his soul - even AFTER coming through that fuckedupness - was that of a fine and decent man.
And he dealt with the consequences...the trauma.
Some need help with that trauma - thank god for woundedwarriors and similar organizations.
Some people don't fight for a country, per se; they fight for people - people just like themselves. People who want peace and to live their lives IN peace, and free. Personally, I'm thankful for them.
He concludes that a successful outcome doesn't come from dropping more bombs; it comes from negotiations between the people in power. And Michael Ware had to retire early because of the effects of his own PTSD after all his years on the front lines. I respect this guy's opinion way more than anyone who has never served or seen war themselves (including me!).
http://youtu.be/KatO1aWMcto
My ex is filipina and we talk about this all the time. The Phillippines loves our soldiers being around. Vietnamese would have succumbed to Communism and major torture under all scenarios and outcomes. You are obviously anti war, but you dont see any benefits from anything....you dont appreciate the freedoms you have? Cause believe it or not, the world is the way it is, because of war! And so far we are all doing pretty well!
A man that stands for nothing....will fall for anything!
All people need to do more on every level!
Sorry to burst your bubble, but the Philippines isn't the same as Vietnam. They're two completely different countries.
As for Vietnam 'succumbing to Communism', it did, so I fail to see your point.
Both of the above statements contain the same amount of truth as the amount of vitamins in an order of 'Freedom Fries'.
want to be enlightened"
There's a great rationale for war if I've ever heard one. :roll:
Ummm, aw, forget it. :roll:
I couldn't disagree more. Most wars are resource wars, religious disputes or imperialist actions.
We're there for the resources.
Hitler? What about the Rockefellers and the Fords?
The civil war was mostly about economics and resources.
What, you mean bomb the shit out of anybody that doesn't follow our lead? If they're brown, black or yellow, bomb them twice for good measure?
Facts need to be backed up with citations. This is conjecture.
That's what they all say. Us, them, all warring people.
Who made us world police?
Hope? More like hopeless.
And to my cynical commentary that some of you find offensive - well, it was intended to be offensive. That's the asshole part in me when it comes to these discussions. Yes, it is hard for me to see the PERSON behind the uniform and the commands a soldier's living in. Part of this is my problem, yes. You can choose ANYONE for your hate projections, I know that. I don't wanna befriended with a soldier but I don't blame you when you care for your loved ones. It's easy to point your finger on people you don't know, I also know that. - Forgiveness is a thing that I have to learn too...towards myself and towards other people, even if they are strangers. - A little rollback, since I was kinda emotional writing my first post last night: IMO, GUILT (the feeling, the claiming of it) is the leading power in this world to make people do things they actually don't wanna do and/or mostly regret afterwards. I try to scratch the world "guilt" out of my personal dictionary. Replace it with "responsibility" and people can look into each other's eyes as people.
And, thank you to the replies to one certain post here. None of these wars that have been talked about are justifyable. "This land is your land"? - It doesn't belong to ANYBODY. Once you realized that, don't you dare to imperialize more of it elsewhere! And don't blame the historic examples that stand for communism to justify capitalistic imperialism. There is nothing good in it someone should be thankful for.
I'd rather die than justify "my" or "your" army because it "protects" my life. Sounds pathetic? I don't care.
At the borders of Europe refugees drown because european armies do such a good job in "protecting" my life. And "my" government justifies this policy like they are just a modern and more disguised 1984-like form of Nazis. This ideolody is still in power. And it is also because the countries that "freed" Germany in 1945 tolerate and support this policy.
2006: Berlin
2007: Munich * Düsseldorf
2009: Berlin * Manchester * London
2010: Dublin * Belfast * Berlin
2012: Amsterdam I & II * Berlin I & II * Stockholm * Oslo * Copenhagen
EV 2012: Amsterdam I & II
2014: Amsterdam I & II * Milan * Trieste * Vienna * Berlin
EV 2017: Berlin
2018: Amsterdam I & II * Prague * Krakow * Berlin
2022: Berlin- Vienna - Prague - Amsterdam I - Amsterdam II #
2024: Berlin I & II
~~~
“It is curious that while good people go to great lengths to spare their children from suffering, few of them seem to notice that the one (and only) guaranteed way to prevent all the suffering of their children is not to bring those children into existence in the first place.”
― David Benatar - Better Never to Have Been: The Harm of Coming into Existence
you realize the US lost the war right? If you visit Vietnam it is called the American War and has an American War crimes museum.
A great place to visit and an eye opener for those who need their eyes opened.
to the point of the thread. I understand joining the military for oppurtunity, but I would never sign up for anything that ordered me to kill other people or be killed.
Call me crazy......
You are telling me Hitler didnt need taken out? You are telling me that there is no evil. You are missing one major point, that there are evil men with armies who also need taken out. You didnt think to yourself on 9.12 that whoever did that needs taken out? North Korea hates South, what if they attack them? If you understand human nature well enough, as im sure you claim, you would also understand the need for war sometimes
A man that stands for nothing....will fall for anything!
All people need to do more on every level!
First, my dad fought in Vietnam and I can attest to the fact that he came from extreme poverty and he has stated that he went ahead and chose to enlist but he did so because he knew he couldn't get out of it and he knew he would eventually be drafted anyway. I think there are a disproportionate number of men and women that enlist to escape a sentence of poverty. I won't go into the lies that some recruiters tell these kids to get them to join.
Second, My father has suffered immense trauma (PTSD and losing a limb) because of his involvement in Vietnam. Because of my dad's experiences, I have never been in favor of war even though he gets heated, even today, if I so much as mention that fighting that war was unnecessary. And looking at it from the perspective of the soldier, that is a crappy thing to say. My dad lost ALOT because of that war - how can he ever believe it was anything but a necessary war?? If he doesn't believe that then all he has experienced is worth nothing and that's a tough loss to take.
Third, there are extremely rare instances in which war is ever jusitified and if we are being honest, and we understand our history, then we can see that war is usually only used to gain resources or dominate a region or to "protect" our country. It would be an interesting discussion to examine the relative merits of the wars that the US has been involved in over the years. My study of history leads me to believe that most wars could have been avoided altogether if only we had undertaken certain actions to change the ultimate outcome.
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
Of course, Hitler needed to be taken out BUT examine the history and tell me why it was allowed to even get to that point? Stronger wills could have prevented that war and the Holocaust if aggressive action had been taken before it ended in all out war.
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
Oh and I hate John McCain. POS.
Riotgrl - my father was a career military guy. He was sent to Korea, and did several tour of duties in Viet-nam. He was not a gun-ho let's go get'em guy. He was of a middle class family, 17 AND out of university. No job prospects for him (apart from the usual little jobs for 17 year olds) so he enlisted as he wanted to travel. He did - immediately went to Japan and loved it. Unfortunately, the rest came with it.
We have not had a draft in a very long time. People are volunteering to become soldiers during a time period where we've been at "war" or whatever for 11 years now. If you volunteer these days, you know there's a good chance you might have to kill someone and I think murder is wrong. If someone joins during a time of war, they are pro-war and the anti-war side should oppose that.
During times of peace or when there's a draft, I think it's a slightly different story, but I will say that even if I was drafted I would refuse to fight and kill other people.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Would you refuse to fight if your country was under attack, or would you just refuse to fight in a bullshit war like Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan.
I would refuse to fight. Period.
I don't believe in killing. Who says my ideology or way of life justifies me ending the life of someone else.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Would you not fight to defend the lives of your friends and family?
And so kill someone else's friends and family? Are mine more valuable or worthy to live?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Then you'd probably like this little book: http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/m/hen ... rderer.htm
I can't find an online version, but I have a copy at home in England. I read it a long time ago, and it gives a pretty good case for turning one's back on war.
It's also available in his book 'Remember To Remember': http://www.amazon.com/Remember-Henry-Mi ... 0811201139
As for me, I'm not sure what I'd do. I think it would depend on the circumstances. I'd certainly never go and fight some bullshit foreign war in order to fill the pockets of the war-mongering fat bellies in the 1%.
If your country is attacked on your land...war becomes pretty necessary.
Additionally, there are a few other instances where something, like an attack, could lead to you taking the war to them. Like Afghanistan in my opinion.
I can also see joining forces with others to help in their "necessary war" even if it isn't your war, depending on the circumstances.
But really, thinking that there is no necessary war (other than defending your own home/land/country) is a very reasonable position.
When you say 'them', you mean the Saudi Arabian's that happened to be residing in Afghanistan at the time, right? The same Saudi's who the Afghan leadership offered to hand over to the U.S if the U.S provided proof that they were guilty, as is the case in any such situation involving international terrorism, or any other extradition request.
I think the socioeconomic statistics have changed since Korea and Vietnam. My dad also joined because there were no job prospects for him in his town. I think more and more recruits today are coming primarily from the middle class - my brother joined the Army AFTER receiving a college degree which is probably typical of more recruits today than 40-50 years ago but greater education levels are also the norm for the population in general. However, I believe that when we break down the statistics amongst ethnic groups that we find a disproportinate number of poor blacks that serve while whites are primarily from the middle classes. DoD statistics are slightly skewed and cherry picked to state that it is not a poor man's army. However, we've discovered in the Truth thread that sometimes truth is a matter of perception
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE