To deny that Obamacare is not modeled after Romneycare, even though the are extremely similar, and key contributors worked on both programs, and that the Democrats were attacking Romney because the plans are nearly identical, and Romney never attacked Obamacare even though the GOP base hates Obamacare because if he did the Dems would call B.S. ... To say with a straight face the are not close to the same is completely ludicrous.
So, to be clear ...
Obama's #1 achievement was modeled after the plan made by a slippery used-car salesman.
umm....it's review of a book by katha politt who writes for numerous publications including 25 articles for the guardian...like this one
do you disagree with her assessment that obama care is modeled after romney's efforts in massachusetts?
Yeah, I do. Because it wasn't.
As for the article, It's not an editorial, and it's not written by someone on the Guardian's payroll. It's the first piece of hers I've ever seen in the Guardian.
I've also seen articles posted in the Guardian written by people like Mark Regev, the right-wing Israeli spokesperson, and by U.S Conservative radio show hosts. These people aren't regular Guardian contributors, and their views don't represent those of the Guardian. So for your buddy to go and cherry-pick this article and then claim that it represents the opinion of the Guardian newspaper is just bullshit. Though I realize that bullshit might not be something you're adverse to.
What’s clear from the history is three things: (1) Romney’s plan was designed to solve the specific problems that had arisen in Massachusetts’ health-care system, such as individual-market dysfunction; (2) Romney favored allowing individuals to buy low-cost catastrophic insurance, whereas the succeeding Deval Patrick administration forced individuals to buy costly, comprehensive coverage; (3) Obamacare is modeled after Patrick’s implementation of Romney’s reform, more than it is modeled after what Romney actually sought to achieve.
Romney’s plan did succeed in driving down the cost of individual-market insurance in Massachusetts, by moving that state’s health care system from a left-wing morass toward the center. But that doesn’t make Massachusetts a model for more market-oriented states which never suffered from Massachusetts’ problems.
The Heritage Foundation being credited by Obama for the basis for ObamaCare, replied: "The Obama health-care law 'builds' on the Heritage health reform model only in the sense that, say, a double-quarter-pounder with cheese 'builds' on the idea of a garden salad. Both have lettuce and tomato and may be called food, but the similarities end there."
RomneyCare and the individual mandate are based on conservative principles:
Only mandated cost sharing by free riders. (ObamaCare adds huge extras into individual mandates)
ObamaCare added the employer mandate, a huge problem. (Romney vetoed any employer fees)
RomneyCare: No new taxes (ObamaCare huge complex of extra taxes and costs
RomneyCare: No intrusion on private companies. (ObamaCare requires 85% payout of companies, plus, plus, plus)
RomneyCare: Brilliant use of monies already there. (ObamaCare adds and adds and adds huge costs)
Let's compare the two and see what we can learn: Note RomneyCare is not the same as the modifications added by the legislature and the courts!
Designed specifically for a state's situation
Massachusetts - Yes
ObamaCare - No, imposed without choice
New taxes (Romney specified: No new taxes)
Massachusetts - None
ObamaCare - 4% on higher income, ++ Loss of medical deduction for 2.5% of income, Medical devices tax, etc.
Free market based (Romney required it to be)
Massachusetts - Yes (no infringement)
ObamaCare - Some, but...(requires 85% expenditure on benefits of health care premiums)
"Mandate" - Individual
Massachusetts - "Mandate" - Individual
ObamaCare - Tax based on income
Mandate - Employer, for not covering
Massachusetts - No (Romney vetoed employer penalties )
ObamaCare - Large penalties
Minimal cost
Massachusetts - 1% of Mass. budget
ObamaCare - Some huge number (And $500 billion from Medicare)
As it happens, McDonough has just published a book on that experience called Inside National Health Reform. In it, he describes just how consciously, and closely, reformers in Washington followed the example Massachusetts had set.
Among the stories he recounts is an October 2008 meeting in the Dirksen Senate Office building. In a presentation to key “stakeholders” — consumer advocates, lobbyists for the health care industry, and so on — HELP staff outlined three possible approaches to reform. There was “Constitution Avenue,” meaning a wholesale change to single-payer or some other new system, along with “Independence Avenue,” meaning an incremental, go-slow approach to reform. And then there was “Massachusetts Avenue,”
“Meaning reform based on the key elements of the near-universal coverage law enacted in Massachusetts in 2006. Those elements include deep and systematic health insurance market reform, a mandate on individuals to purchase insurance, subsidies to make insurance affordable, and an insurance “exchange” to connect people with coverage.”
The group’s overwhelming favorite was Massachusetts Avenue, which, McDonough notes, was hardly surprising:
“By October 2008, this approach had become the accepted direction among nearly all major Democratic officeholders who wanted health reform to be a top priority in 2009, including the three major Democratic presidential candidates. … Before the election, before the congressional process was actively engaged, a 2006 Massachusetts law had already become the essential template for national reform.”If you want to read more about the many connections between Romneycare and Obamacare, by the way, I highly recommend Brian Mooney’s series in the Boston Globe and Ryan Lizza‘s essay in the New Yorker — along with McDonough’s book.
The Heritage Foundation being credited by Obama for the basis for ObamaCare, replied: "The Obama health-care law 'builds' on the Heritage health reform model only in the sense that, say, a double-quarter-pounder with cheese 'builds' on the idea of a garden salad. Both have lettuce and tomato and may be called food, but the similarities end there."
RomneyCare and the individual mandate are based on conservative principles:
Only mandated cost sharing by free riders. (ObamaCare adds huge extras into individual mandates)
ObamaCare added the employer mandate, a huge problem. (Romney vetoed any employer fees)
RomneyCare: No new taxes (ObamaCare huge complex of extra taxes and costs
RomneyCare: No intrusion on private companies. (ObamaCare requires 85% payout of companies, plus, plus, plus)
RomneyCare: Brilliant use of monies already there. (ObamaCare adds and adds and adds huge costs)
Let's compare the two and see what we can learn: Note RomneyCare is not the same as the modifications added by the legislature and the courts!
Designed specifically for a state's situation
Massachusetts - Yes
ObamaCare - No, imposed without choice
New taxes (Romney specified: No new taxes)
Massachusetts - None
ObamaCare - 4% on higher income, ++ Loss of medical deduction for 2.5% of income, Medical devices tax, etc.
Free market based (Romney required it to be)
Massachusetts - Yes (no infringement)
ObamaCare - Some, but...(requires 85% expenditure on benefits of health care premiums)
"Mandate" - Individual
Massachusetts - "Mandate" - Individual
ObamaCare - Tax based on income
Mandate - Employer, for not covering
Massachusetts - No (Romney vetoed employer penalties )
ObamaCare - Large penalties
Minimal cost
Massachusetts - 1% of Mass. budget
ObamaCare - Some huge number (And $500 billion from Medicare)
of course a pro-romney website, who wants to distance their candidate away from obama as much as possible, is going to put out a bunch of stats without siting sources (which were probably indirectly obtained from fox news). here is a quote from the guy who runs that website you found: "Once a person truly knows who Mitt Romney is, I think he will see that he is the most qualified and that he will benefit both sides of the political spectrum." so, you're either a fraud who just cuts and pastes the first article he finds on google without actually reading the article....or you are secretly a romney fan.
at this point, i'm not sure what your point is with this thread other than to argue for the sake of arguing. you don't live in canada, yet you are telling canadians how great their healthcare system while ignoring their first hand reasons why there are problems with it.
then you fail to acknowledge what most people in this country have been aware of regarding mitt romney since day 1: the guy flip flops on multiple issues for the sole purpose of getting elected president. there are plenty of similarities between obamacare and romney care as my post pointed out. he was a terrible candidate.
at this point, i'm not sure what your point is with this thread other than to argue for the sake of arguing. you don't live in canada, yet you are telling canadians how great their healthcare system while ignoring their first hand reasons why there are problems with it.
Did you even bother to read the original post in this thread? It says nothing about Obamacare.
"We know," Obama said, "because the guy I'm running against tried this in Massachusetts and it's working just fine."
This doesn't mean that Obama based his health care reform plan on Romney's plan in Massachusetts. It just points out that there are similarities. Big difference.
if i guessed wrong, please post the link (i'm guessing you won't...however if you do, and it's different than the one i posted, i will take back my fraud claim. ball's in your court here.).
that's kind of what i'm getting at...you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
yes, similarities (shocking). and the links i provided in my other post (the one in which you conveniently forgot to address) shows that his admin "followed the example massachusetts had set." obviously it is not 100% carbon copy. nobody said that. but mass provided them a template to work with. this is not even an argument to anyone here...except you.
---
at this point, you might as well get off you're high horse. you try to portray yourself as the smartest person in the room when, in fact, you're simply just a cut and paste jockey. you could at least read the article before you hit "submit" next time though :roll:
if i guessed wrong, please post the link (i'm guessing you won't...however if you do, and it's different than the one i posted, i will take back my fraud claim. ball's in your court here.)....
Like I said, is what was posted from that source correct, or was it not? If not, then what is your fucking problem, genius?
his admin "followed the example massachusetts had set." obviously it is not 100% carbon copy. nobody said that. but mass provided them a template to work with. this is not even an argument to anyone here...except you.
I said Obama's health care reform plan wasn't based on Romney's plan in Massachusetts, which it wasn't. Though there are similarities. The only one here arguing for the sake of trying to look smart is you. Shame it hasn't worked out for you.
at this point, you might as well get off you're high horse. you try to portray yourself as the smartest person in the room when, in fact, you're simply just a cut and paste jockey. you could at least read the article before you hit "submit" next time though :roll:
So it's o.k for me to back up what I say with sources when it suits you, but when it doesn't suit you then I'm just a 'cut-and-paste jockey?
I realize that in between posting on the AET about American football, t.v sitcoms, and picking your nose, you may not understand what the Moving Train is all about. But this section of the forum is where people discuss political issues, environmental, and social issues, e.t.c. And if people didn't back up what they say with source material, and 'facts', then it'd be nothing but people throwing opinions around, which would be just hot air, and a lot of bullshit, much like you can see on Youtube's comments section.
So I'll continue supporting what I say with links and sources, and I don't give a toss if you don't like it.
Also, I don't try and portray myself as anything.
Personal comment removed by Admin. Discuss the subject and not other members discussing the subject.
By JUANA SUMMERS | 3/11/11 8:48 AM EDT Updated: 3/12/11 5:55 PM EDT
David Axelrod is singing the praises of “Romneycare” – yet again.
Continue Reading
The former White House senior adviser smiled and laughed as he twisted the knife in Mitt Romney on Friday, saying that the ex-Massachusetts governor’s health plan “inspired” President Obama and was a “template” for the White House’s own national program.
"I mean, quite seriously. It was a template, apart from all the jokes," Axelrod, who has repeatedly talked up Romney’s plan, said on MSNBC's "Morning Joe."
Egged on by the show's hosts, he called Romneycare – which mandates that individuals have health care coverage, like Obama’s plan – is something Romney should embrace.
"People in the state like it, and he ought to be proud of it, and he ought to embrace it. And one day, I think he will," the former White House senior adviser said. “That work inspired our own health care plan.”
Romney, who has called for the repeal of Obamacare, has said that his own plan “wasn’t perfect.” He said there are parts of it he would change or eliminate altogether, without offering specifics. He also has said states should be free to design their own health plans and not have that dictated to them by Washington.
Continuing to make mischief in the GOP 2012 field, Axelrod also took on Jon Huntsman, the U.S. ambassador to China who is leaving his post next month and considering a run for the Republican presidential nomination.
"He was very encouraging about what the president was doing, both foreign and domestic, but maybe he's rethought that," Axelrod riffed.
so this is confirmation that you cut and pasted the info from a pro-romney website then? you are admitting you're a fraud? again, all you have to do is post a link to back up your source material here. i've given you ample opportunities to save face.
there are similarities because it has worked in massachusetts. and thus, the obama admin has looked at it as the template for obamacare, not a carbon copy, of course. we're dealing with semantics here. the links and quotes i posted support this. nothing you have said has proved otherwise.
i have asked you 3 times to provide a link to the article you cut and pasted and you have declined each time. the reason is certainly because you unknowingly found it on a pro-romney website (this one: http://www.whoromneyis.com/index.html) which proves you don't even read the shit you post on here. again, next time--please read the article before hitting "submit."
again, it's not a personal attack, my friend. i just think it's pretty fraudulent for someone to simply cut and paste something without reading the full article and without knowing what the website's agenda is...and then refusing to link to it. it's essentially like you are just throwing your opinion around, which is just hot air, and a lot of bullshit, much like you can see on Youtube's comments section.
Are the points I posted from that article correct, or are they not?
As for posting something from a pro-Romney website. How does that make me a fraud? I simply wanted to post some stats that showed the major differences between the two reform plans. That doesn't make me a fraud.
Though I do find it Interesting that you've repeatedly gotten away with calling me a fraud.
so this is confirmation that you cut and pasted the info from a pro-romney website then? you are admitting you're a fraud? again, all you have to do is post a link to back up your source material here. i've given you ample opportunities to save face.
there are similarities because it has worked in massachusetts. and thus, the obama admin has looked at it as the template for obamacare, not a carbon copy, of course. we're dealing with semantics here. the links and quotes i posted support this. nothing you have said has proved otherwise.
i have asked you 3 times to provide a link to the article you cut and pasted and you have declined each time. the reason is certainly because you unknowingly found it on a pro-romney website (this one: http://www.whoromneyis.com/index.html) which proves you don't even read the shit you post on here. again, next time--please read the article before hitting "submit."
again, it's not a personal attack, my friend. i just think it's pretty fraudulent for someone to simply cut and paste something without reading the full article and without knowing what the website's agenda is...and then refusing to link to it. it's essentially like you are just throwing your opinion around, which is just hot air, and a lot of bullshit, much like you can see on Youtube's comments section.
Are the points I posted from that article correct, or are they not?
As for posting something from a pro-Romney website. How does that make me a fraud? I simply wanted to post some stats that showed the major differences between the two reform plans. That doesn't make me a fraud.
Though I do find it Interesting that you've repeatedly gotten away with calling me a fraud. Maybe the mods are just waiting for me to tell you to go fuck yourself before giving me a ban?
oh there is no need for that. my goodness byrnie. i realize it's frustrating to be called out like this. but you brought it upon yourself. should have just admitted where you got them from in the first place. it's funny that it's taken you a few days and multiple posts to come clean.
if you'd like, we can examine the stats you found from that delusional romney supporter. first, i would you like to ascertain where he obtained his numbers from. this will require you to do some more research. are you up to it?
more importantly: do you disagree with president obama, and his senior adviser, that romneycare provided the template for obamacare?
Bickering removed by Admin. Discuss the subject and not other members discussing the subject. Both of you stop now or choose to be read-only over the next week.
Wow. Byrnzie you are out on a fucking limb. He never said foot surgery was "urgent", but are YOU saying that 6 months is a reasonable wait time to see a foot specialist?
Pun....intended?
Onto the firsts of this election...
I wasn't aware of the anti-personhood laws for corporations resolutions. Stoked to see those, even if they can't be upheld.
The Wednesday following the election was a very happy day at work. New wedding plans are in the works for at least one colleague.
The state legalization of marijuana will be an interesting one to watch unfold. We were already in the process of approving two 'collective gardens' where I work. Now we want to know when restaurants will be adding 'special' fudge brownie sundaes to their menus.
Wow. Byrnzie you are out on a fucking limb. He never said foot surgery was "urgent", but are YOU saying that 6 months is a reasonable wait time to see a foot specialist?
An Open Letter to President Obama …from Michael Moore
Monday, November 19th, 2012
Dear President Obama:
Good luck on your journeys overseas this week, and congratulations on decisively winning your second term as our president! The first time you won four years ago, most of us couldn't contain our joy and found ourselves literally in tears over your victory.
This time, it was more like breathing a huge sigh of relief. But, like the smooth guy you are, you scored the highest percentage of the vote of any Democrat since Lyndon Johnson, and you racked up the most votes for a Democratic president in the history of the United States (the only one to receive more votes than you was ... you, in '08!). You are the first Democrat to get more than 50% of the vote twice in a row since Franklin D. Roosevelt.
This was truly another historic election and I would like to take a few minutes of your time to respectfully ask that your second term not resemble your first term.
It's not that you didn't get anything done. You got A LOT done. But there are some very huge issues that have been left unresolved and, dammit, we need you to get some fight in you. Wall Street and the uber-rich have been conducting a bloody class war for over 30 years and it's about time they were stopped.
I know it is not in your nature to be aggressive or confrontational. But, please, Barack – DO NOT listen to the pundits who are telling you to make the "grand compromise" or move to the "center" (FYI – you're already there). Your fellow citizens have spoken and we have rejected the crazed ideology of this Republican Party and we insist that you forcefully proceed in bringing about profound change that will improve the lives of the 99%. We're done hoping. We want real change. And, if we can't get it in the second term of a great and good man like you, then really – what's the use? Why are we even bothering? Yes, we're that discouraged and disenchanted.
At your first post-election press conference last Wednesday you were on fire. The way you went all "Taxi Driver" on McCain and company ("You talkin' to me?") was so brilliant and breathtaking I had to play it back a dozen times just to maintain the contact high. Jesus, that look – for a second I thought laser beams would be shooting out of your eyes! MORE OF THAT!! PLEASE!!
In the weeks after your first election you celebrated by hiring the Goldman Sachs boys and Wall Street darlings to run our economy. Talk about a buzzkill that I never fully recovered from. Please – not this time. This time take a stand for all the rest of us – and if you do, tens of millions of us will not only have your back, we will swoop down on Congress in a force so large they won't know what hit them (that's right, McConnell – you're on the retirement list we've put together for 2014).
BUT – first you have to do the job we elected you to do. You have to take your massive 126-electoral vote margin and just go for it.
Here are my suggestions:
1. DRIVE THE RICH RIGHT OFF THEIR FISCAL CLIFF. The "fiscal cliff" is a ruse, an invention by the Right and the rich, to try and keep their huge tax breaks. On December 31, let ALL the tax cuts expire. Then, on January 1, put forth a bill that restores the tax cuts for 98% of the public. I dare the Republicans to vote against that! They can't and they won't. As for the spending cuts, the 2011 agreement states that, for every domestic program dollar the Republicans want to cut, a Pentagon dollar must also be cut. See, you are a genius! No way will the Right vote against the masters of war. And if by some chance they do, you can immediately put forth legislation to restore all the programs we, the majority, approve of. And for God's sake, man – declare Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid untouchable. They're not bankrupt or anywhere near it. If the rich paid the same percentage of Social Security tax on their entire income – the same exact rate everyone else pays – then there will suddenly be enough money in Social Security to last til at least the year 2080!
2. END ALL THE WARS NOW. Do not continue the war in Afghanistan (a thoroughly losing proposition if ever there was one) for two full more years! Why should one single more person have to die FOR NO REASON? Stop it. You know it's wrong. Bin Laden's dead, al Qaeda is decimated and the Afghans have to work out their own problems. Also, end the drone strikes and other covert military activities you are conducting in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Colombia and God knows where else. You think history is going to remember the United States as a great democracy? No, they're going to think of us as a nation that became addicted to war. They'll call us warlords. They'll say that in the 21st century America was so in need of oil that we'd kill anyone to get it. You know that's where this is going. This has to stop. Now.
3. END THE DRUG WAR. It is not only an abysmal failure, it has returned us to the days of slavery. We have locked up millions of African-Americans and Latinos and now fund a private prison-industrial complex that makes billions for a few lucky rich people. There are other ways to deal with the drugs that do cause harm – ways built around a sense of decency and compassion. We look like a bunch of sadistic racists. Stop it.
4. DECLARE A MORATORIUM ON HOME FORECLOSURES AND EVICTIONS. Millions of people are facing homelessness because of a crooked system enacted by the major banks and Wall Street firms. Put a pause on this and take 12 months to work out a different way (like, restructuring families' mortgages to reflect the true worth of their homes).
5. GET MONEY OUT OF POLITICS. You already know this one. The public is sick of it. Now's the time to act.
6. EXPAND OBAMACARE. Your health care law doesn't cover everyone. It is a cash cow for the insurance industry. Push for a single-payer system – Medicare for All – and include dentistry and mental health. This is the single biggest thing you could do to reduce the country's deficit.
7. RESTORE GLASS-STEAGALL. You must put back all the rigid controls on Wall Street that Reagan, Clinton and the Bushes removed – or else we face the possibility of another, much worse, crash. If they break the law, prosecute them the way you currently go after whistleblowers and medical marijuana dispensaries.
8. REDUCE STUDENT LOAN DEBT. No 22-year-old should have to enter the real world already in a virtual debtors' prison. This is cruel and no other democracy does this like we do. You were right to eliminate the banks as the profit-gouging lenders, but now you have to bring us back to the days when you and I were of college age and a good education cost us little or next to nothing. A few less wars would go a long to way to being able to afford this.
9. FREE BRADLEY MANNING. End the persecution and prosecution of an American hero. Bush and Cheney lied to a nation to convince us to go to war. Manning allegedly hacked the war criminals' files and then shared them with the American public (and the world) so that we could learn the truth about Iraq and Afghanistan. Our history is full of such people who "break the law" for the greater good of humanity. Army Specialist Bradley Manning deserves a medal, not prison.
10. ASK US TO DO SOMETHING. One thing is clear: none of the above is going to happen if you don't immediately mobilize the 63,500,000 who voted for you (and the other 40 million who are for you but didn't vote). You can't go this alone. You need an army of everyday Americans who will fight alongside you to make this a more just and peaceful nation. In your 2008 campaign, you were a pioneer in using social media to win the election. Over 15 million of us gave you our cell numbers or email addresses so you could send us texts and emails telling us what needed to be done to win the election. Then, as soon as you won, it was as if you hit the delete button. We never heard from you again. (Until this past year when you kept texting us to send you $25. Inspiring.) Whoever your internet and social media people were should have been given their own office in the West Wing – and we should have heard from you. Constantly. Need a bill passed? Text us and we will mobilize! The Republicans are filibustering? We can stop them! They won't approve your choice for Secretary of State? We'll see about that! You say you were a community organizer. Please – start acting like one.
The next four years can be one of those presidential terms that changed the course of America. I'm sure you will want to be judged on how you stood up for us, restored the middle class, ended the s***ting on the poor and made us a friend to the rest of the world instead of a threat. You can do this. We can do it with you. All that stands in the way is your understandable desire to sing "Kumbaya" with the Republicans. Don't waste your breath. Their professed love of America is negated by their profound hatred of you. Don't waste a minute on them. Fix the sad mess we're in. Go back and read this month's election results. We're with you.
Yours,
Michael Moore
<!-- e --><a href="mailto:MMFlint@MichaelMoore.com">MMFlint@MichaelMoore.com</a><!-- e --> @MMFlint
MichaelMoore.com
P.S. President Obama – my cell number to text me at is 810-522-8398 and my email is <!-- e --><a href="mailto:MMFlint@MichaelMoore.com">MMFlint@MichaelMoore.com</a><!-- e -->. I await my first assignment!
Wow. Byrnzie you are out on a fucking limb. He never said foot surgery was "urgent", but are YOU saying that 6 months is a reasonable wait time to see a foot specialist?
Comments
To deny that Obamacare is not modeled after Romneycare, even though the are extremely similar, and key contributors worked on both programs, and that the Democrats were attacking Romney because the plans are nearly identical, and Romney never attacked Obamacare even though the GOP base hates Obamacare because if he did the Dems would call B.S. ... To say with a straight face the are not close to the same is completely ludicrous.
So, to be clear ...
Obama's #1 achievement was modeled after the plan made by a slippery used-car salesman.
Forward.
she's written 25 articles for the guardian...including this one. the fact that you personally have not see any of them is meaningless.
and if you disagree with her, please back that up with source material.
I didn't say they weren't close to the same. I said Obamacare wasn't modeled on Romney's plan.
Ah, so now you're o.k with me backing up my statements with source material?
What’s clear from the history is three things: (1) Romney’s plan was designed to solve the specific problems that had arisen in Massachusetts’ health-care system, such as individual-market dysfunction; (2) Romney favored allowing individuals to buy low-cost catastrophic insurance, whereas the succeeding Deval Patrick administration forced individuals to buy costly, comprehensive coverage; (3) Obamacare is modeled after Patrick’s implementation of Romney’s reform, more than it is modeled after what Romney actually sought to achieve.
Romney’s plan did succeed in driving down the cost of individual-market insurance in Massachusetts, by moving that state’s health care system from a left-wing morass toward the center. But that doesn’t make Massachusetts a model for more market-oriented states which never suffered from Massachusetts’ problems.
..............................................................................................................................
The Heritage Foundation being credited by Obama for the basis for ObamaCare, replied: "The Obama health-care law 'builds' on the Heritage health reform model only in the sense that, say, a double-quarter-pounder with cheese 'builds' on the idea of a garden salad. Both have lettuce and tomato and may be called food, but the similarities end there."
RomneyCare and the individual mandate are based on conservative principles:
Only mandated cost sharing by free riders. (ObamaCare adds huge extras into individual mandates)
ObamaCare added the employer mandate, a huge problem. (Romney vetoed any employer fees)
RomneyCare: No new taxes (ObamaCare huge complex of extra taxes and costs
RomneyCare: No intrusion on private companies. (ObamaCare requires 85% payout of companies, plus, plus, plus)
RomneyCare: Brilliant use of monies already there. (ObamaCare adds and adds and adds huge costs)
Let's compare the two and see what we can learn: Note RomneyCare is not the same as the modifications added by the legislature and the courts!
Designed specifically for a state's situation
Massachusetts - Yes
ObamaCare - No, imposed without choice
New taxes (Romney specified: No new taxes)
Massachusetts - None
ObamaCare - 4% on higher income, ++ Loss of medical deduction for 2.5% of income, Medical devices tax, etc.
Free market based (Romney required it to be)
Massachusetts - Yes (no infringement)
ObamaCare - Some, but...(requires 85% expenditure on benefits of health care premiums)
"Mandate" - Individual
Massachusetts - "Mandate" - Individual
ObamaCare - Tax based on income
Mandate - Employer, for not covering
Massachusetts - No (Romney vetoed employer penalties )
ObamaCare - Large penalties
Minimal cost
Massachusetts - 1% of Mass. budget
ObamaCare - Some huge number (And $500 billion from Medicare)
Pages
Massachusetts - 70 pages
ObamaCare - 2700 pages
How Mitt Romney's Health-Care Experts Helped Design Obamacare:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/2011/1 ... obamacare/
an excerpt from "inside national health reform:"
http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520270190
As it happens, McDonough has just published a book on that experience called Inside National Health Reform. In it, he describes just how consciously, and closely, reformers in Washington followed the example Massachusetts had set.
Among the stories he recounts is an October 2008 meeting in the Dirksen Senate Office building. In a presentation to key “stakeholders” — consumer advocates, lobbyists for the health care industry, and so on — HELP staff outlined three possible approaches to reform. There was “Constitution Avenue,” meaning a wholesale change to single-payer or some other new system, along with “Independence Avenue,” meaning an incremental, go-slow approach to reform. And then there was “Massachusetts Avenue,”
“Meaning reform based on the key elements of the near-universal coverage law enacted in Massachusetts in 2006. Those elements include deep and systematic health insurance market reform, a mandate on individuals to purchase insurance, subsidies to make insurance affordable, and an insurance “exchange” to connect people with coverage.”
The group’s overwhelming favorite was Massachusetts Avenue, which, McDonough notes, was hardly surprising:
“By October 2008, this approach had become the accepted direction among nearly all major Democratic officeholders who wanted health reform to be a top priority in 2009, including the three major Democratic presidential candidates. … Before the election, before the congressional process was actively engaged, a 2006 Massachusetts law had already become the essential template for national reform.”If you want to read more about the many connections between Romneycare and Obamacare, by the way, I highly recommend Brian Mooney’s series in the Boston Globe and Ryan Lizza‘s essay in the New Yorker — along with McDonough’s book.
Personal comment removed by Admin. Discuss the subject and not other members discussing the subject.
is the reason why you didn't source this piece of material because you found it on a pro-romney website?
of course a pro-romney website, who wants to distance their candidate away from obama as much as possible, is going to put out a bunch of stats without siting sources (which were probably indirectly obtained from fox news). here is a quote from the guy who runs that website you found: "Once a person truly knows who Mitt Romney is, I think he will see that he is the most qualified and that he will benefit both sides of the political spectrum." so, you're either a fraud who just cuts and pastes the first article he finds on google without actually reading the article....or you are secretly a romney fan.
at this point, i'm not sure what your point is with this thread other than to argue for the sake of arguing. you don't live in canada, yet you are telling canadians how great their healthcare system while ignoring their first hand reasons why there are problems with it.
then you fail to acknowledge what most people in this country have been aware of regarding mitt romney since day 1: the guy flip flops on multiple issues for the sole purpose of getting elected president. there are plenty of similarities between obamacare and romney care as my post pointed out. he was a terrible candidate.
and here is the president himself confirming that it is partly modeled off of the success in massachusettes.
http://www.politico.com/politico44/2012 ... 28178.html
"We know," Obama said, "because the guy I'm running against tried this in Massachusetts and it's working just fine."
thanks for playing.
I'd love you to say that to my face.
You guessed wrong, genius. Are the points I posted correct, or are they not?
Did you even bother to read the original post in this thread? It says nothing about Obamacare.
This doesn't mean that Obama based his health care reform plan on Romney's plan in Massachusetts. It just points out that there are similarities. Big difference.
Who's the fraud?
if i guessed wrong, please post the link (i'm guessing you won't...however if you do, and it's different than the one i posted, i will take back my fraud claim. ball's in your court here.).
that's kind of what i'm getting at...you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
yes, similarities (shocking). and the links i provided in my other post (the one in which you conveniently forgot to address) shows that his admin "followed the example massachusetts had set." obviously it is not 100% carbon copy. nobody said that. but mass provided them a template to work with. this is not even an argument to anyone here...except you.
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at this point, you might as well get off you're high horse. you try to portray yourself as the smartest person in the room when, in fact, you're simply just a cut and paste jockey. you could at least read the article before you hit "submit" next time though :roll:
Like I said, is what was posted from that source correct, or was it not? If not, then what is your fucking problem, genius?
I said Obama's health care reform plan wasn't based on Romney's plan in Massachusetts, which it wasn't. Though there are similarities. The only one here arguing for the sake of trying to look smart is you. Shame it hasn't worked out for you.
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So it's o.k for me to back up what I say with sources when it suits you, but when it doesn't suit you then I'm just a 'cut-and-paste jockey?
I realize that in between posting on the AET about American football, t.v sitcoms, and picking your nose, you may not understand what the Moving Train is all about. But this section of the forum is where people discuss political issues, environmental, and social issues, e.t.c. And if people didn't back up what they say with source material, and 'facts', then it'd be nothing but people throwing opinions around, which would be just hot air, and a lot of bullshit, much like you can see on Youtube's comments section.
So I'll continue supporting what I say with links and sources, and I don't give a toss if you don't like it.
Also, I don't try and portray myself as anything.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxXZGQekJoY
Axelrod: Romneycare was 'template' for Obama
By JUANA SUMMERS | 3/11/11 8:48 AM EDT Updated: 3/12/11 5:55 PM EDT
David Axelrod is singing the praises of “Romneycare” – yet again.
Continue Reading
The former White House senior adviser smiled and laughed as he twisted the knife in Mitt Romney on Friday, saying that the ex-Massachusetts governor’s health plan “inspired” President Obama and was a “template” for the White House’s own national program.
"I mean, quite seriously. It was a template, apart from all the jokes," Axelrod, who has repeatedly talked up Romney’s plan, said on MSNBC's "Morning Joe."
Egged on by the show's hosts, he called Romneycare – which mandates that individuals have health care coverage, like Obama’s plan – is something Romney should embrace.
"People in the state like it, and he ought to be proud of it, and he ought to embrace it. And one day, I think he will," the former White House senior adviser said. “That work inspired our own health care plan.”
Romney, who has called for the repeal of Obamacare, has said that his own plan “wasn’t perfect.” He said there are parts of it he would change or eliminate altogether, without offering specifics. He also has said states should be free to design their own health plans and not have that dictated to them by Washington.
Continuing to make mischief in the GOP 2012 field, Axelrod also took on Jon Huntsman, the U.S. ambassador to China who is leaving his post next month and considering a run for the Republican presidential nomination.
"He was very encouraging about what the president was doing, both foreign and domestic, but maybe he's rethought that," Axelrod riffed.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/03 ... z2CforFqOF
Are the points I posted from that article correct, or are they not?
As for posting something from a pro-Romney website. How does that make me a fraud? I simply wanted to post some stats that showed the major differences between the two reform plans. That doesn't make me a fraud.
Though I do find it Interesting that you've repeatedly gotten away with calling me a fraud.
oh there is no need for that. my goodness byrnie. i realize it's frustrating to be called out like this. but you brought it upon yourself. should have just admitted where you got them from in the first place. it's funny that it's taken you a few days and multiple posts to come clean.
if you'd like, we can examine the stats you found from that delusional romney supporter. first, i would you like to ascertain where he obtained his numbers from. this will require you to do some more research. are you up to it?
more importantly: do you disagree with president obama, and his senior adviser, that romneycare provided the template for obamacare?
Pun....intended?
Onto the firsts of this election...
I wasn't aware of the anti-personhood laws for corporations resolutions. Stoked to see those, even if they can't be upheld.
The Wednesday following the election was a very happy day at work. New wedding plans are in the works for at least one colleague.
The state legalization of marijuana will be an interesting one to watch unfold. We were already in the process of approving two 'collective gardens' where I work. Now we want to know when restaurants will be adding 'special' fudge brownie sundaes to their menus.
It's all so exciting.
Monday, November 19th, 2012
Dear President Obama:
Good luck on your journeys overseas this week, and congratulations on decisively winning your second term as our president! The first time you won four years ago, most of us couldn't contain our joy and found ourselves literally in tears over your victory.
This time, it was more like breathing a huge sigh of relief. But, like the smooth guy you are, you scored the highest percentage of the vote of any Democrat since Lyndon Johnson, and you racked up the most votes for a Democratic president in the history of the United States (the only one to receive more votes than you was ... you, in '08!). You are the first Democrat to get more than 50% of the vote twice in a row since Franklin D. Roosevelt.
This was truly another historic election and I would like to take a few minutes of your time to respectfully ask that your second term not resemble your first term.
It's not that you didn't get anything done. You got A LOT done. But there are some very huge issues that have been left unresolved and, dammit, we need you to get some fight in you. Wall Street and the uber-rich have been conducting a bloody class war for over 30 years and it's about time they were stopped.
I know it is not in your nature to be aggressive or confrontational. But, please, Barack – DO NOT listen to the pundits who are telling you to make the "grand compromise" or move to the "center" (FYI – you're already there). Your fellow citizens have spoken and we have rejected the crazed ideology of this Republican Party and we insist that you forcefully proceed in bringing about profound change that will improve the lives of the 99%. We're done hoping. We want real change. And, if we can't get it in the second term of a great and good man like you, then really – what's the use? Why are we even bothering? Yes, we're that discouraged and disenchanted.
At your first post-election press conference last Wednesday you were on fire. The way you went all "Taxi Driver" on McCain and company ("You talkin' to me?") was so brilliant and breathtaking I had to play it back a dozen times just to maintain the contact high. Jesus, that look – for a second I thought laser beams would be shooting out of your eyes! MORE OF THAT!! PLEASE!!
In the weeks after your first election you celebrated by hiring the Goldman Sachs boys and Wall Street darlings to run our economy. Talk about a buzzkill that I never fully recovered from. Please – not this time. This time take a stand for all the rest of us – and if you do, tens of millions of us will not only have your back, we will swoop down on Congress in a force so large they won't know what hit them (that's right, McConnell – you're on the retirement list we've put together for 2014).
BUT – first you have to do the job we elected you to do. You have to take your massive 126-electoral vote margin and just go for it.
Here are my suggestions:
1. DRIVE THE RICH RIGHT OFF THEIR FISCAL CLIFF. The "fiscal cliff" is a ruse, an invention by the Right and the rich, to try and keep their huge tax breaks. On December 31, let ALL the tax cuts expire. Then, on January 1, put forth a bill that restores the tax cuts for 98% of the public. I dare the Republicans to vote against that! They can't and they won't. As for the spending cuts, the 2011 agreement states that, for every domestic program dollar the Republicans want to cut, a Pentagon dollar must also be cut. See, you are a genius! No way will the Right vote against the masters of war. And if by some chance they do, you can immediately put forth legislation to restore all the programs we, the majority, approve of. And for God's sake, man – declare Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid untouchable. They're not bankrupt or anywhere near it. If the rich paid the same percentage of Social Security tax on their entire income – the same exact rate everyone else pays – then there will suddenly be enough money in Social Security to last til at least the year 2080!
2. END ALL THE WARS NOW. Do not continue the war in Afghanistan (a thoroughly losing proposition if ever there was one) for two full more years! Why should one single more person have to die FOR NO REASON? Stop it. You know it's wrong. Bin Laden's dead, al Qaeda is decimated and the Afghans have to work out their own problems. Also, end the drone strikes and other covert military activities you are conducting in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Colombia and God knows where else. You think history is going to remember the United States as a great democracy? No, they're going to think of us as a nation that became addicted to war. They'll call us warlords. They'll say that in the 21st century America was so in need of oil that we'd kill anyone to get it. You know that's where this is going. This has to stop. Now.
3. END THE DRUG WAR. It is not only an abysmal failure, it has returned us to the days of slavery. We have locked up millions of African-Americans and Latinos and now fund a private prison-industrial complex that makes billions for a few lucky rich people. There are other ways to deal with the drugs that do cause harm – ways built around a sense of decency and compassion. We look like a bunch of sadistic racists. Stop it.
4. DECLARE A MORATORIUM ON HOME FORECLOSURES AND EVICTIONS. Millions of people are facing homelessness because of a crooked system enacted by the major banks and Wall Street firms. Put a pause on this and take 12 months to work out a different way (like, restructuring families' mortgages to reflect the true worth of their homes).
5. GET MONEY OUT OF POLITICS. You already know this one. The public is sick of it. Now's the time to act.
6. EXPAND OBAMACARE. Your health care law doesn't cover everyone. It is a cash cow for the insurance industry. Push for a single-payer system – Medicare for All – and include dentistry and mental health. This is the single biggest thing you could do to reduce the country's deficit.
7. RESTORE GLASS-STEAGALL. You must put back all the rigid controls on Wall Street that Reagan, Clinton and the Bushes removed – or else we face the possibility of another, much worse, crash. If they break the law, prosecute them the way you currently go after whistleblowers and medical marijuana dispensaries.
8. REDUCE STUDENT LOAN DEBT. No 22-year-old should have to enter the real world already in a virtual debtors' prison. This is cruel and no other democracy does this like we do. You were right to eliminate the banks as the profit-gouging lenders, but now you have to bring us back to the days when you and I were of college age and a good education cost us little or next to nothing. A few less wars would go a long to way to being able to afford this.
9. FREE BRADLEY MANNING. End the persecution and prosecution of an American hero. Bush and Cheney lied to a nation to convince us to go to war. Manning allegedly hacked the war criminals' files and then shared them with the American public (and the world) so that we could learn the truth about Iraq and Afghanistan. Our history is full of such people who "break the law" for the greater good of humanity. Army Specialist Bradley Manning deserves a medal, not prison.
10. ASK US TO DO SOMETHING. One thing is clear: none of the above is going to happen if you don't immediately mobilize the 63,500,000 who voted for you (and the other 40 million who are for you but didn't vote). You can't go this alone. You need an army of everyday Americans who will fight alongside you to make this a more just and peaceful nation. In your 2008 campaign, you were a pioneer in using social media to win the election. Over 15 million of us gave you our cell numbers or email addresses so you could send us texts and emails telling us what needed to be done to win the election. Then, as soon as you won, it was as if you hit the delete button. We never heard from you again. (Until this past year when you kept texting us to send you $25. Inspiring.) Whoever your internet and social media people were should have been given their own office in the West Wing – and we should have heard from you. Constantly. Need a bill passed? Text us and we will mobilize! The Republicans are filibustering? We can stop them! They won't approve your choice for Secretary of State? We'll see about that! You say you were a community organizer. Please – start acting like one.
The next four years can be one of those presidential terms that changed the course of America. I'm sure you will want to be judged on how you stood up for us, restored the middle class, ended the s***ting on the poor and made us a friend to the rest of the world instead of a threat. You can do this. We can do it with you. All that stands in the way is your understandable desire to sing "Kumbaya" with the Republicans. Don't waste your breath. Their professed love of America is negated by their profound hatred of you. Don't waste a minute on them. Fix the sad mess we're in. Go back and read this month's election results. We're with you.
Yours,
Michael Moore
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P.S. President Obama – my cell number to text me at is 810-522-8398 and my email is <!-- e --><a href="mailto:MMFlint@MichaelMoore.com">MMFlint@MichaelMoore.com</a><!-- e -->. I await my first assignment!
"...I changed by not changing at all..."