Morning in America ...a Note From Michael Moore

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  • Byrnzie wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    All that matters to me is I know what Moore said about the Canadian system is bullshit...I live in this country, pay taxes in this country and get my medical treatment in this country...he doesn't.

    And when the former Head of Corporate Communications at CIGNA (which provides health insurance to nearly 70 percent of the Fortune 100 companies) says that the movie 'Sicko' "hit the nail on the head", I suppose that's also bullshit, right?

    dude, we live here, we experience the system all the time. it has its benefits, but Moore seems to paint it as the be all end all of health care, which it isn't. it's flawed.

    I don't get why you are fighting that.
    Gimli 1993
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  • brianluxbrianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,090
    Wow- so this thread went from Michale Moore's letter to America to a supposed (or real?) mansion of his to hospitals in Canada to foot surgery to people telling people to eff off. What next? NASCAR racing in the Bahamas?
    :corn:
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.” Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
    Democracy Dies in Darkness- Washington Post













  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    lukin2006 wrote:
    Fuck you ... i never said it qualified as an emergency ...using as example of how long treatment can take ... so do me a favour go worship your your michael moore's and all the other celebrities...can't be bothered discussing a topic with a know it all who's in China and knows fuck all about our health care system other than watching and reading bullshit.

    Wow, wish I could have been there to see you spit your dummy out.
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Posts: 48,913
    i hate michael moore.
    www.myspace.com
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-news ... -marijuana

    Ten firsts from the 2012 election

    Liberals scored a slew of pioneering victories in drug legalisation, gay marriage and diversified representation



    Barack Obama's re-election may have dominated the headlines, but the 2012 election will also be remembered for the remarkable number of progressive firsts it ushered through. Across the nation new ground was broken in drug legalisation, gay marriage and diversified representation, especially for women.

    1. First openly gay female senator

    Tammy-Baldwin-009.jpg
    Tammy Baldwin Tammy Baldwin, who became the first openly gay US senator, winning in Wisconsin. Photograph: Andy Manis/AP

    In Wisconsin, Democratic representative Tammy Baldwin became the first openly gay US senator when she defeated former governor Tommy Thompson in a hotly contested race. The two candidates spent about $65m on the campaign, making the contest the most expensive in state history.

    "I didn't run to make history," Baldwin told her supporters in her acceptance speech. "I ran to make a difference."

    In addition to being the nation's first gay senator, Baldwin is Wisconsin's first female senator. State assemblyman Mark Pocan, a Democrat who is also openly gay, will succeed Baldwin in her House seat.

    2. First states legalise recreational marijuana

    A-woman-lights-a-marijuan-009.jpg
    A woman lights a marijuana cigarette A woman lights a marijuana cigarette, sometimes known as a 'joint'. Photograph: Jockmans/Rex Features

    In a major coup for drug reformers, Colorado and Washington became the first states to legalise the possession and sale of marijuana for recreational use. Several states, including Colorado and Washington, already have medical marijuana laws on the books, but 2012 will no doubt remain a seminal year for American stoners since it suggests that the public, at least in some states, is on their side.

    It's worth noting that both states' reforms are in direct conflict with federal policies, which classify cannabis as an illegal narcotic. As Colorado governor John Hickenlooper, a Democrat who opposed the measure, cautioned in a statement: "Federal law still says marijuana is an illegal drug, so don't break out the Cheetos or Goldfish too quickly."

    3 & 4 & 5. First Buddhist, first Asian American woman and first Japanese-born senator

    Mazie-Hirono-008.jpg
    Mazie Hirono Mazie Hirono will be the first female Senator from Hawaii, the first Asian-American woman elected to the Senate, the first Senator born in Japan, and the nation's first Buddhist Senator. Photograph: AFP/Getty Images

    In Hawaii, Democrat Mazie Hirono made history when she beat former governor Linda Lingl to make Hirono the first Buddhist, first Asian American woman and first Japanese born senator-elect. Hirono was born in Fukushina, Japan and practices the Jodo Shinshu tradition of Buddhism. She was first elected to Congress in 2007 to represent Hawaii's 2nd District. Hirono previously served 14 years in the Hawaii state legislature and was the state's lieutenant governor for eight years.

    6. First Hindu in Congress


    Tulsi Gabbard

    Tulsi-Gabbard-008.jpg
    In Hawaii, 31-year-old Tulsi Gabbard was elected as the first Hindu member of Congress. Gabbard, who served in combat in Iraq, is of Samoan descent and her mother embraced the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition. Photograph: AFP/Getty Images

    Hawaii also broke new ground in the House. In the Aloha state's 2nd Congressional District, Democrat Tulsi Gabbard defeated Republican opponent Kawika Crowley, making Gabbard the first Hindu in Congress.

    Gabbard was born in American Samoa, but has spent most of her life in Hawaii. In 2002, when she was just 21, she joined the Hawaii state legislature.

    Gabbard, who was raised by a Catholic father and a Buddhist mother, chose to embrace Buddism when she was a teen. Since she relies upon the Bhagavad Gita as her main source of scripture, she said that when she's sworn in this January she'll take her oath of office on the sacred text.

    7. Montana and Colorado are the first states to pass anti-personhood laws for corporations

    ricketts_cover_lg.jpg
    Cover of Super Pac strategy document Cover of Super Pac strategy document outlining plan to highlight Barack Obama's links to Jeremiah Wright, via the New York Times

    Corporations are not people, at least that's what voters in Montana and Colorado said they believe in two separate state resolutions passed overwhelmingly on Tuesday. Although the resolutions won't change any laws, they are the first statewide initiatives supported by voters calling for corporate personhood reform.

    The idea of corporate personhood, which was upheld by the supreme court's 2010 Citizens United ruling, freed corporations and unions to spend unlimited sums of money (think Super Pacs) on independent political campaigns often without disclosing the names of the donors.

    Previously reform groups leaned on state legislatures and city councils to pass resolutions calling for the overturn of the controversial court ruling.

    8. New Hampshire is the first state to have all women in top elected official positions

    A-voter-checks-her-ballot-007.jpg
    A voter checks her ballot in Balsams Hotel in Dixville Notch, New Hampshire A voter checks her ballot in Balsams Hotel in Dixville Notch, New Hampshire Photograph: Jessica Rinaldi/Reuters

    New Hampshire elected women to all of its most prominent elected positions. The state's governorship, two Senate seats and two House seats will all be occupied by women in January.

    Democrats Carol Shea-Porter and Ann McLane Kuster beat two Republican men to represent the state in the House. They will join senators Jeanne Shaheen, a Democrat, and Kelly Ayotte, a Republican, who weren't up for re-election. Rounding out the new matriarchy is governor-elect Maggie Hassan, a Democratic state senator, who will replace Democrat John Lynch.

    Of course, this is hardly the end for men. Women remain woefully underrepresented across the nation. So much so that in Congress it wasn't until 2011 that a women's bathroom was installed off the House floor.

    9. First time gay marriage passed as a ballot measure

    Gay-marriage-008.jpg
    Gay marriage Gay marriage is tearing the Anglican communion asunder once again. Photograph: Christopher Furlong/Getty Images

    After years of disappointment at the polls, gay marriage activists saw a handful of big wins on Tuesday. For the first time ever voters in three states – Maine, Washington and Maryland – approved ballot initiatives allowing same-sex unions.

    Other states with gay marriage laws like New York, Connecticut and Vermont had their gay-marriage reforms pushed through by the courts or legislators. The three popular vote victories suggest a sea-change in the public's perception of gay marriage.

    Activists also scored a victory from voters in Minnesota where voters turned back a proposed constitutional amendment that would have prohibited same-sex marriage if it were approved by law.

    10. First time that House Democrats do not have a white male majority

    a9c69d21-f960-49db-b629-ebe1e4e68c6c-460.jpeg
    Democratic leader and member of the US House of Representatives, California, Nancy Pelosi. Democratic leader and member of the US House of Representatives, California, Nancy Pelosi. Photograph: Stan Honda/AFP/Getty Images

    For the first time House Democrats do not have a white male majority. With eight races still be determined, Bloomberg predicted that the new balance of the legislative body would be striking. White men will sit in about 90% of the Republican seats, while just 47% of Democratic seats will have white men.
  • Do the revolution Baby !
    Turn 1 over 99 into 99 over 1.
  • MotoDCMotoDC Posts: 947
    brianlux wrote:
    I seem to be the only person I know who thinks this way, but I think we should have some form of "royalty". To me it would make sense to have a "king" or "queen"- someone who looks good, who represents us as a personality but has little actual power. And really, that's kind of the way it really is anyway. The president has a cabinet but all the focus goes on one person. The executive branch should be a committee. People have told me that that's what congress is for and I say "a committee not a mob".
    An odd thought. Though to be sure, we would be better off worshipping Queen E than Snookie. Very old school of you, brianlux. Hmmm...a thinker.
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,460
    Byrnzie wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    I recently had foot surgery, I waited 6 months just see the orthopaedic surgeon and the surgery would have been 6-9 months after seeing him...fortunately between my wife and I we had enough private insurance cover 50% at a private clinic which I opted for.

    There are no easy answers and no quick fixes...

    And you think foot surgery qualifies as urgent treatment?

    And you think waiting 12 months for surgery is ok?

    Look, the American system sucks if you don't have money, but lets not ignore the truths about other systems just because they don't fit your preconceived notions.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • MotoDCMotoDC Posts: 947
    Byrnzie wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    I recently had foot surgery, I waited 6 months just see the orthopaedic surgeon and the surgery would have been 6-9 months after seeing him...fortunately between my wife and I we had enough private insurance cover 50% at a private clinic which I opted for.

    There are no easy answers and no quick fixes...

    And you think foot surgery qualifies as urgent treatment?
    Wow. Byrnzie you are out on a fucking limb. He never said foot surgery was "urgent", but are YOU saying that 6 months is a reasonable wait time to see a foot specialist?
  • MotoDC wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    I recently had foot surgery, I waited 6 months just see the orthopaedic surgeon and the surgery would have been 6-9 months after seeing him...fortunately between my wife and I we had enough private insurance cover 50% at a private clinic which I opted for.

    There are no easy answers and no quick fixes...

    And you think foot surgery qualifies as urgent treatment?
    Wow. Byrnzie you are out on a fucking limb. He never said foot surgery was "urgent", but are YOU saying that 6 months is a reasonable wait time to see a foot specialist?

    no kidding. I went in to a doc because of snoring/breathing issues. Finally a doc told me I needed surgery. He said I'd have to wait probably 6 months to a year. Well, I'm going on about 2 years now, I don't even remember the fucking specialist who I saw or who to even call for a follow up.

    so I bought the snore guard instead. :lol:
    Gimli 1993
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    St. Paul 2014
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,138
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Jason P wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Are you people suggesting that as soon as someone earns over a certain amount of money, everything they say is irrelevant?
    I'm pretty sure that was the main theme the Democrats ran with against Romney.

    :think:

    I'm pretty sure it wasn't.
    I'm pretty sure you have no idea. Although you seem smart so I say you are in denial or lying.

    Oh, I forgot .... their main theme was that they are going to raise taxes! (but not on you or me ... some fictitious old white dude ... except it will be you or me ... although not you since you are in china)

    Or was it something about ... forward?

    I'd love to have that as a response when my boss asked me why I'm underachieving.

    :fp:
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    he didn't come up with that figure. that was my reality 4 weeks ago when I went there with appendicitis. and that IS the norm where I live. it's a constant topic in canada. there was a very much publicized case in Winnipeg of a man dying, DYING, of complications of a bladder infection waiting over 30 hours to get seen. the nurses were so overworked and busy he just got glossed over, for 3 full shifts. Of course, that is an exceptional case, but an extreme of a situation that is actually pretty dire.

    when I was waiting 8 hours to see a doc? the attending told me "you're lucky. yesterday the average wait was 16 hours". and this isn't for a bruised fucking thumb. this is shit you need to see a doctor for. you can't just get an appointment, go home, and wait for a surgery date. this is broken limbs, bleeding heads, enlarged organs, etc.

    I had my appendix out that night and I was lucky I got it out. it could have ruptured while I was waiting. a woman next to me, whom I saw on my way out the next day, also came in with appendicitis, and also got it out, and also had to wait as long as I did.
    Fuckin a, Hugh. Three years ago, my guy had swine flu...we were in the ER waiting room for a good three hours, with one of the paramedics, while he threw up nonstop. Waited, waited. Eventually received excellent care - forever indebted to Cedars Sinai for the many operations and hours of care they've given him over the years - but it was pure HELL in that time.

    And we were all in the same fucking boat.
  • I need to drill this in though: the nurses and doctors I have seen and dealt with are all AWESOME. They are great people working in a broken system. The are surely dedicated folks. They deserve incredible kudos for the shit they put up with. THEY are the ones that get bitched at for the wait times, not our politicians. They are the ones working around the clock to make sure people get the care they are desperately waiting for, not the politicians.
    Gimli 1993
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    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    just because the program is run poorly doesn't mean it's flawed ...
  • polaris_x wrote:
    just because the program is run poorly doesn't mean it's flawed ...

    true, but I'd have to dig deeper to figure out which it is in this case.
    Gimli 1993
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    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • cincybearcatcincybearcat Posts: 16,460
    polaris_x wrote:
    just because the program is run poorly doesn't mean it's flawed ...

    What do you mean?

    Almost nothing is perfect so I'm sure it's flawed.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • polaris_x wrote:
    just because the program is run poorly doesn't mean it's flawed ...

    What do you mean?

    Almost nothing is perfect so I'm sure it's flawed.

    you could have the best players on any given football team, but if they have a crappy coach, then chances are, no matter how good the players are, you are probably not going to work too well together to achieve your goal.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • polaris_xpolaris_x Posts: 13,559
    What do you mean?

    Almost nothing is perfect so I'm sure it's flawed.

    it means that there are a multitude of reasons why a system is flawed or failing ... health care is related to a plethora of things including pharmaceuticals, preventative programs, food safety ... if i allow poisonous products and food to enter into the consumer marketplace and then find out there are long term consequences - no on ever considers that ...

    at the end of the day - it boils down to this ... as a society - are we better off as a whole with everyone having access to health care? ... for me - the overwhelming feeling is yes ... a healthy society is much more productive ... if that is the case - what is the best way to deliver affordable health care to everyone? ... it's through a nationalized system ... but you still have to manage the program effectively ...
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,138
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Jason P wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Personally, I think people are entitled to an opinion regardless of how much money they have. In fact, I think the more money and influence someone has, the more responsibility they have to express their opinions, to 'speak truth to power', and try and improve the well-being of others.
    Mitt-Romney-241055-4-402.jpg

    Except this slippery used-car salesman didn't speak any truth. So your point is moot.
    Ironic that our current president's crowning achievement was modeled after the plan of a slippery used-car salesman who doesn't speak the truth ...

    :geek:
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Jason P wrote:
    Ironic that our current president's crowning achievement was modeled after the plan of a slippery used-car salesman who doesn't speak the truth ...

    :geek:

    Ah, so now you're pretending that Obama's health care plan was poached from Mitt Romney?
  • dignindignin Posts: 9,336
    They are great people working in a broken system.

    Gonna have to disagree with you that our system is broken. It's not perfect by any means, it's a work in progress but by no means broken. I personally am very proud of our single payer system. I'm curious if you have any ideas on how to make it better?
  • dignin wrote:
    They are great people working in a broken system.

    Gonna have to disagree with you that our system is broken. It's not perfect by any means, it's a work in progress but by no means broken. I personally am very proud of our single payer system. I'm curious if you have any ideas on how to make it better?

    I think it's broken when people are sleeping in beds in hallways. I think it's broken when people are dying in waiting rooms. I think it's broken when staff are being basically forced to work double shifts.

    But no, I honestly don't know how to fix it. I think the first step is for our administration to actually address it and not just talk about it in times of politicking.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,138
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Jason P wrote:
    Ironic that our current president's crowning achievement was modeled after the plan of a slippery used-car salesman who doesn't speak the truth ...

    :geek:

    Ah, so now you're pretending that Obama's health care plan was poached from Mitt Romney?
    What does The Guardian say about it?
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Jason P wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Jason P wrote:
    Ironic that our current president's crowning achievement was modeled after the plan of a slippery used-car salesman who doesn't speak the truth ...

    :geek:

    Ah, so now you're pretending that Obama's health care plan was poached from Mitt Romney?
    What does The Guardian say about it?

    That's clever. Give yourself a pat on the back for that one.
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,138
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Jason P wrote:
    What does The Guardian say about it?

    That's clever. Give yourself a pat on the back for that one.
    Nevermind, I found the article.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/apr/18/the-real-romney-review?INTCMP=SRCH

    So it must be true. ;)
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Jason P wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Jason P wrote:
    What does The Guardian say about it?

    That's clever. Give yourself a pat on the back for that one.
    Nevermind, I found the article.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/apr/18/the-real-romney-review?INTCMP=SRCH

    So it must be true. ;)

    Keep up the trolling. It suits you.
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Posts: 48,913
    Jason P wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Jason P wrote:
    What does The Guardian say about it?

    That's clever. Give yourself a pat on the back for that one.
    Nevermind, I found the article.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/apr/18/the-real-romney-review?INTCMP=SRCH

    So it must be true. ;)

    hahaha....god romney was a terrible candidate:

    from the guardian:
    "These flipflops are now coming back to haunt him, especially the biggie: how can he inveigh against Obamacare when it is based on Romneycare, the universal health-insurance plan, complete with individual mandate, he successfully implemented in Massachusetts?"
    www.myspace.com
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    hahaha....god romney was a terrible candidate:

    from the guardian:
    "These flipflops are now coming back to haunt him, especially the biggie: how can he inveigh against Obamacare when it is based on Romneycare, the universal health-insurance plan, complete with individual mandate, he successfully implemented in Massachusetts?"

    This article is a review of a book on Romney by an American columnist for 'The Nation'. It's not a 'Guardian' article.

    I guess you both missed that in your effort to appear smart.
  • The JugglerThe Juggler Posts: 48,913
    Byrnzie wrote:
    hahaha....god romney was a terrible candidate:

    from the guardian:
    "These flipflops are now coming back to haunt him, especially the biggie: how can he inveigh against Obamacare when it is based on Romneycare, the universal health-insurance plan, complete with individual mandate, he successfully implemented in Massachusetts?"

    This article is a review of a book on Romney by an American columnist for 'The Nation'. It's not a 'Guardian' article.

    I guess you both missed that in your effort to appear smart.

    umm....it's review of a book by katha politt who writes for numerous publications including 25 articles for the guardian...like this one

    do you disagree with her assessment that obama care is modeled after romney's efforts in massachusetts? will be you posting a link to wikipedia as your response?
    www.myspace.com
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    umm....it's review of a book by katha politt who writes for numerous publications including 25 articles for the guardian...like this one

    do you disagree with her assessment that obama care is modeled after romney's efforts in massachusetts?

    Yeah, I do. Because it wasn't.

    As for the article, It's not an editorial, and it's not written by someone on the Guardian's payroll. It's the first piece of hers I've ever seen in the Guardian.
    I've also seen articles posted in the Guardian written by people like Mark Regev, the right-wing Israeli spokesperson, and by U.S Conservative radio show hosts. These people aren't regular Guardian contributors, and their views don't represent those of the Guardian. So for your buddy to go and cherry-pick this article and then claim that it represents the opinion of the Guardian newspaper is just bullshit. Though I realize that bullshit might not be something you're adverse to.

    will be you posting a link to wikipedia as your response?

    That's clever. But if you're trying to insult me then you'll have to do better than point out the fact that I back up what I say with source material.
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