Seven-year-old girl shot dead in Chicago

PJ_Soul

Kevinman wrote:

Isn't 10:45 a little late for a 7 year old to be up, much less on the street "working"? I also get the impression from the tone and words spoken by the mother on the news, that she is more interested in revenge than she is overwhelmed with sorrow. I may be dead wrong with the impression she gave me, but this is how it sounded to me. Who was near them that was the intended target? Did the mother know this person, and do they have gang affiliations? She knew this was a dangerous area at a dangerous time of night. I'm not saying it's her fault, I'm just saying that as a parent you should never put your child in an unnecessary dangerous or potentially deadly situation. All of the blame is on the shooter, however a child of that age has no business on the street in that neighborhood at that time.

I know a LOT of parents (especially dads) whose immediate priority would be revenge. I.e. hunting the guy down and bashing his head in with a baseball bat, or maybe torturing him for a few hours first. I see nothing wrong with her reaction.
Yeah, it seems late for a kid to be out, but we don't know the circumstances, and I don't think there is anything good about trying to lay any blame on this poor mother. I'm completely shocked that that is where the focus seems to have turned. Who cares why the kid was out at 10:45??? Maybe it's too hot in their apartment to sleep. Maybe her babysitter bailed and she had to go to work or not afford food. Whatever. A child should be able to be out at ANY time of day and not get shot. It may seem like a dangerous area to us, but to this woman and child, it was likely their own neighborhood - their home - and they were likely simply trying to live their lives the best they could where they live. Not everyone gets to live a nice life where mom and dad work 9 - 5 in an air conditioned home and have no need to go out into a bad neighborhood every time they leave their apartment.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

PJ_Soul wrote:

Yeah, it seems late for a kid to be out, but we don't know the circumstances, and I don't think there is anything good about trying to lay any blame on this poor mother. I'm completely shocked that that is where the focus seems to have turned. Who cares why the kid was out at 10:45??? Maybe it's too hot in their apartment to sleep. Maybe her babysitter bailed and she had to go to work or not afford food. Whatever. A child should be able to be out at ANY time of day and not get shot. It may seem like a dangerous area to us, but to this woman and child, it was likely their own neighborhood - their home - and they were likely simply trying to live their lives the best they could where they live. Not everyone gets to live a nice life where mom and dad work 9 - 5 in an air conditioned home and have no need to go out into a bad neighborhood every time they leave their apartment.

I really wish more people had the sense not to judge. We have no idea the circumstances of why this girl was out, as you said, and in the end the reason is irrelevant.

catefrances

pandora wrote:

I have a feeling sight seeing does not take someone to this little girls neighborhood
and to suggest that is taking away from the horror of her death.

It all sounds naive of the trouble our cities are in. We need to feel this trouble not
sweep it away by saying ... i am so tough I'll walk anywhere this is how i was taught....

This young child died in her neighborhood.

whos talking about sight seeing?? sight seeing is (somewhat)aimless wandering, not what were talking about here(at least not what im talking about anyway). again you assume something not said.

pandora

catefrances wrote:

pandora wrote:

I have a feeling sight seeing does not take someone to this little girls neighborhood
and to suggest that is taking away from the horror of her death.

It all sounds naive of the trouble our cities are in. We need to feel this trouble not
sweep it away by saying ... i am so tough I'll walk anywhere this is how i was taught....

This young child died in her neighborhood.

whos talking about sight seeing?? sight seeing is (somewhat)aimless wandering, not what were talking about here(at least not what im talking about anyway). again you assume something not said.

catefrances wrote:

i am doing something that requires me to be in whatever part of a city i am.if something i want to do is in some area of the city

This equals sight seeing if one is visiting a city... you are locating that which interests you,
sights you find noteworthy and going to see them.
Not necessarily aimless at all as in your example here,
sounds like you planned to see some sights...


My point this child died in her neighborhood. This all we need focus on.
Not who is tough enough to go in her neighborhood for a jaunt and who isn't. :fp:
fact is she lived in danger.

LikeAnOcean

catefrances wrote:

you people amuse me. how the fuck does one become scared of a city??? be honest people... youre not scared of the city.... youre scared of the people that inhabit it. i have never been anywhere where ive been concerned for my welfare. everywhere i go i feel i belong. perhaps this is naivety... perhaps its cause ive lived in cities all my life.. but whatever it is i refuse to allow anything to make me think i do not belong. i walk the streets at whatever hour in whatever city im in. i walk as if i belong... and hey! fuck you if you think you can intimidate me cause you are sorely mistaken. if you want to fuck with me its you who doesnt belong... not me.

There are parts of the city where if people see you, you will be mugged, or shot, or both.

These areas are generally out of the way from any real reason anyone would visit Chicago. It's laughable to consider these areas "more dodgy" than Lincoln Park. That is the understatement of the year.

If you visit these bad areas, you will know. It will be a little out of your way, it won't be uncommon to see bullet holes, shattered windows, boarded up housing and people walking around drugged up and dangerous to you. It will look post apocalyptic and there won't be much law enforcement around to help you..

Just saying..

Hugh Freaking Dillon

catefrances wrote:

you people amuse me. how the fuck does one become scared of a city??? be honest people... youre not scared of the city.... youre scared of the people that inhabit it. i have never been anywhere where ive been concerned for my welfare. everywhere i go i feel i belong. perhaps this is naivety... perhaps its cause ive lived in cities all my life.. but whatever it is i refuse to allow anything to make me think i do not belong. i walk the streets at whatever hour in whatever city im in. i walk as if i belong... and hey! fuck you if you think you can intimidate me cause you are sorely mistaken. if you want to fuck with me its you who doesnt belong... not me.

come on, cate, you know as well as I do that when someone says they are scared of a city or an area they are talking about the people, not the buildings.

I'm guessing the "dodgy" places you may go on your travels aren't what is actually considered dodgy by the locals. it's probably just considered untouristy.

there are areas in even Winnipeg you would fear to tread (murder capital of Canada! YAY!). you just wouldn't ever know it because usually the places that are the least safe are usually the most out of the way, so unless you are looking for it, you probably won't find it.


I think one of your earlier statements on this issue is the most telling, that you didn't care for your own welfare. Would you take any of your kids to any of these places you speak of?

PJ_Soul

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

catefrances wrote:

you people amuse me. how the fuck does one become scared of a city??? be honest people... youre not scared of the city.... youre scared of the people that inhabit it. i have never been anywhere where ive been concerned for my welfare. everywhere i go i feel i belong. perhaps this is naivety... perhaps its cause ive lived in cities all my life.. but whatever it is i refuse to allow anything to make me think i do not belong. i walk the streets at whatever hour in whatever city im in. i walk as if i belong... and hey! fuck you if you think you can intimidate me cause you are sorely mistaken. if you want to fuck with me its you who doesnt belong... not me.

come on, cate, you know as well as I do that when someone says they are scared of a city or an area they are talking about the people, not the buildings.

I'm guessing the "dodgy" places you may go on your travels aren't what is actually considered dodgy by the locals. it's probably just considered untouristy.

there are areas in even Winnipeg you would fear to tread (murder capital of Canada! YAY!). you just wouldn't ever know it because usually the places that are the least safe are usually the most out of the way, so unless you are looking for it, you probably won't find it.


I think one of your earlier statements on this issue is the most telling, that you didn't care for your own welfare. Would you take any of your kids to any of these places you speak of?

Just come to Vancouver to guarantee a trip to the dodgiest part of the city. It's right downtown - the DTES or downtown east side. One block you're enjoying beautiful historic Gastown, with the giftshops and boutiques and sidewalk patios, and then BAM, you walk directly into the most disgusting, stinking neighborhood you've ever seen in your entire life, with at least one dealer, crack addict, AND drugged out prostitute on every corner. Apparently, it's the most concentrated slum in the western world. Four blocks of pure misery right smack in the middle of the main city centre. If you want to shoot up in broad daylight on the street, do it there, because no one will even take a second glance. The cops don't seem to care, even though they have a giant downtown station right there in the middle of it. It's totally bizarre, and a REAL TREAT for all the tourists who inevitably end up there! ... Of course, if you want to have bullets buzzing by your head, it's all up to luck, since that happens in any given pleasant upper middle class neighborhood or any random upscale downtown restaurant or shitty Chinese joint, or wherever some crazy person or gang banger feels like making a hit. The entire city and all surrounding areas is their oyster as far as I can tell. The DTES is actually way too horrible and disgusting and sad for bangers to go to, no joke. The danger there is with schizophrenic wigged out drug addicts who will rob you for their next fix or simply attack because the voices in their heads are telling them to. :? :fp: I guess my point is that I'm kind of jealous of all these cities where apparently you have to go out of your way to witness the worst that the city has to offer. I have to go through it every time I go downtown.

catefrances

pandora wrote:

catefrances wrote:

i am doing something that requires me to be in whatever part of a city i am.if something i want to do is in some area of the city

This equals sight seeing if one is visiting a city... you are locating that which interests you,
sights you find noteworthy and going to see them.
Not necessarily aimless at all as in your example here,
sounds like you planned to see some sights...


My point this child died in her neighborhood. This all we need focus on.
Not who is tough enough to go in her neighborhood for a jaunt and who isn't. :fp:
fact is she lived in danger.

really so im sightseeing if i see live bands or see a play, visit friends or go to the movies or out to dinner in a particular area of some city???? wow i might just have to rethink my whole spare time plan. again you show you dont know what youre talking about in reference to my posts cause you havent even bothered to seek clarification. not once have i mentioned sight seeing or that that is the purpose for my being somewhere... that is something you assumed. and yes thank you for pointing out redundantly this chld was killed in the area in which lived. :roll: :fp:

catefrances

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

come on, cate, you know as well as I do that when someone says they are scared of a city or an area they are talking about the people, not the buildings.

I'm guessing the "dodgy" places you may go on your travels aren't what is actually considered dodgy by the locals. it's probably just considered untouristy.

there are areas in even Winnipeg you would fear to tread (murder capital of Canada! YAY!). you just wouldn't ever know it because usually the places that are the least safe are usually the most out of the way, so unless you are looking for it, you probably won't find it.


I think one of your earlier statements on this issue is the most telling, that you didn't care for your own welfare. Would you take any of your kids to any of these places you speak of?

would i have reason to be in these areas of winnipeg??? and i dont care for my own welfare insofar as i dont allow fear to be my shadow. im not a fool. and ive been around long enough doing what i continue to do to know whats what. im not being a hero nor trying to show up how awesomely tough i am.im not gonna go to a specific area of some city because it has a high crime rate if i have no other reason to be there. but i am aware of my surroundings always.

. im not speaking specifically of where i go on my travels(tho my recent visit to chicago did come up briefly). i was talking of when im generally out about about... in a city(even my own) doing what i need to do and not deciding against doing that based simply on whether itll take me in a dodgy area of said city. .

Kevinman

PJ_Soul wrote:

Kevinman wrote:

Isn't 10:45 a little late for a 7 year old to be up, much less on the street "working"? I also get the impression from the tone and words spoken by the mother on the news, that she is more interested in revenge than she is overwhelmed with sorrow. I may be dead wrong with the impression she gave me, but this is how it sounded to me. Who was near them that was the intended target? Did the mother know this person, and do they have gang affiliations? She knew this was a dangerous area at a dangerous time of night. I'm not saying it's her fault, I'm just saying that as a parent you should never put your child in an unnecessary dangerous or potentially deadly situation. All of the blame is on the shooter, however a child of that age has no business on the street in that neighborhood at that time.

I know a LOT of parents (especially dads) whose immediate priority would be revenge. I.e. hunting the guy down and bashing his head in with a baseball bat, or maybe torturing him for a few hours first. I see nothing wrong with her reaction.
Yeah, it seems late for a kid to be out, but we don't know the circumstances, and I don't think there is anything good about trying to lay any blame on this poor mother. I'm completely shocked that that is where the focus seems to have turned. Who cares why the kid was out at 10:45??? Maybe it's too hot in their apartment to sleep. Maybe her babysitter bailed and she had to go to work or not afford food. Whatever. A child should be able to be out at ANY time of day and not get shot. It may seem like a dangerous area to us, but to this woman and child, it was likely their own neighborhood - their home - and they were likely simply trying to live their lives the best they could where they live. Not everyone gets to live a nice life where mom and dad work 9 - 5 in an air conditioned home and have no need to go out into a bad neighborhood every time they leave their apartment.

Did you read where I said all of the blame is on the shooter? You are bringing the focus to this area just as much as I did with your reaction. The circumstances have been reported in the news. She was out selling candy on the street in a dangerous area. Her mother was with her, not at work. A child should not be shot ever no matter what the circumstances or time, however this is reality in this neighborhood at this time of night. It's too dangerous for an adult to be out at that time in this neighborhood, why put a child at risk. It is a fact there are far more shootings at night than during the day. Here's one from last night.

http://www.wgntv.com/news/wgntv-girl-10 ... 9509.story

What is similar about these stories? Both in bad neighborhoods, both at night, too late to be out. I'm not blaming the mother at all for the daughter's death, I'm saying a child should not be out that late in that neighborhood. If you disagree with me, fine, it's my opinion. In a perfect world maybe a child would be safe at all times of day or night in all neighborhoods, but this is far from perfect, so precautions should be taken.

Kevinman

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

Yeah, it seems late for a kid to be out, but we don't know the circumstances, and I don't think there is anything good about trying to lay any blame on this poor mother. I'm completely shocked that that is where the focus seems to have turned. Who cares why the kid was out at 10:45??? Maybe it's too hot in their apartment to sleep. Maybe her babysitter bailed and she had to go to work or not afford food. Whatever. A child should be able to be out at ANY time of day and not get shot. It may seem like a dangerous area to us, but to this woman and child, it was likely their own neighborhood - their home - and they were likely simply trying to live their lives the best they could where they live. Not everyone gets to live a nice life where mom and dad work 9 - 5 in an air conditioned home and have no need to go out into a bad neighborhood every time they leave their apartment.

I really wish more people had the sense not to judge. We have no idea the circumstances of why this girl was out, as you said, and in the end the reason is irrelevant.

The reason may be irrelevant, but the lesson learned from it should not be. Too late for a child to be out in this neighborhood. No reason is worth a life or even serious harm.

http://www.wgntv.com/news/wgntv-girl-10 ... 9509.story

Hugh Freaking Dillon

Kevinman wrote:

The reason may be irrelevant, but the lesson learned from it should not be. Too late for a child to be out in this neighborhood. No reason is worth a life or even serious harm.

http://www.wgntv.com/news/wgntv-girl-10 ... 9509.story

I know what you are saying, in that I wouldn't have my 7 year old out at night in a shitty neighbourhood. BUT I don't think this point is appropriate within the confines of this discussion. It tends to lead to blaming the victim, the old "well, if she hadn't been out so late, none of this would have happened" kind of stuff. While we all think it's common sense that she not be where she was, I think the point of this thread is that crime is so out of control that thugs don't even give a shit about kids anymore. Kids used to be off limits for even the biggest tough guy with a gun. Now they are just collateral damage.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

catefrances wrote:

would i have reason to be in these areas of winnipeg??? and i dont care for my own welfare insofar as i dont allow fear to be my shadow. im not a fool. and ive been around long enough doing what i continue to do to know whats what. im not being a hero nor trying to show up how awesomely tough i am.im not gonna go to a specific area of some city because it has a high crime rate if i have no other reason to be there. but i am aware of my surroundings always.

. im not speaking specifically of where i go on my travels(tho my recent visit to chicago did come up briefly). i was talking of when im generally out about about... in a city(even my own) doing what i need to do and not deciding against doing that based simply on whether itll take me in a dodgy area of said city. .

well, forgive me if I misinterpreted your earlier statements, but at least one sounded like you were marching around with your shoulders up looking for a fight. The "if you fuck with me YOU'RE the one that doesn't belong" statement.

there are certain areas of any city I wouldn't go to, it wouldn't matter to me if Ed was having beers with people in a bar. My safety is more important than my pride.

catefrances

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

catefrances wrote:

would i have reason to be in these areas of winnipeg??? and i dont care for my own welfare insofar as i dont allow fear to be my shadow. im not a fool. and ive been around long enough doing what i continue to do to know whats what. im not being a hero nor trying to show up how awesomely tough i am.im not gonna go to a specific area of some city because it has a high crime rate if i have no other reason to be there. but i am aware of my surroundings always.

. im not speaking specifically of where i go on my travels(tho my recent visit to chicago did come up briefly). i was talking of when im generally out about about... in a city(even my own) doing what i need to do and not deciding against doing that based simply on whether itll take me in a dodgy area of said city. .

well, forgive me if I misinterpreted your earlier statements, but at least one sounded like you were marching around with your shoulders up looking for a fight. The "if you fuck with me YOU'RE the one that doesn't belong" statement.

there are certain areas of any city I wouldn't go to, it wouldn't matter to me if Ed was having beers with people in a bar. My safety is more important than my pride.

oh i have no pride lets make no mistake about that.



aah the words of a drunken idiot. i had to go back and see if i said what you said i did... and lo! much to my amusement i did. and i stand by those words though probably not with as much wine soaked bravado as it came across. there is nowhere i go where i feel like i dont belong... that much is true. dividing up the city into some sort of tribal lands where a toe over the line will get it cut off or worse isnt how i want to see any city. does that mean i feel the need to test my survival skills by goin' down the ghetto and thumbing my nose at the locals??? no it doesnt.. but as ive said if i have cause to be somewhere then i will be there.i dont think anybody should feel like they cant be anywhere within a city. does that make it clearer?? or perhaps a little bit less muddy than it was?

elvistheking44

catefrances wrote:

Kevinman wrote:

Any city, but I was talking about Chicago.

Chances are when you were here, you were downtown or in tourist areas. This is not where the majority of the city inhabitants live or hang out. I wouldn't be scared to walk there either, but that is a small sample of what the city neighborhoods are really like. Those are the areas with the most police, and the lowest crime.

i was between nth clark st and du paul university... so whats that??? west fullerton??? whatever area it was it wasnt an area i was familiar with seeings how id not been there before. but stilll i didnt fear for my life or think myself in any danger. im sure there are areas of chicago that are considered more dodgy and if i had reason to visit those areas i would.. im not one to just wander areas in order to see what happens... or prove what a hero i am.

West Fullerton Side Fools!!!!!!!!! You should have the attitude that nothing bad can happen in that area. The area you were walking around in is not only one of the wealthiest and cleanest areas of ANY city in the US, its also damn near the safest. :fp:

Go down to 79th and Lowe, tell me how safe you feel in broad daylight.

unsung

Wait, Chicago isn't the liberal utopia that they all say it is?

Nope, it's a cesspool, as previously mentioned. Pass all the gun laws you want, this still happens. You can't walk anywhere without a surveillance camera on you, now they have red light cameras and speed cameras too.

And yes I challenge any of you who thinks you are "the one that belongs" to take a stroll through the Austin neighborhood and see how that works out for you.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

catefrances wrote:

oh i have no pride lets make no mistake about that.



aah the words of a drunken idiot. i had to go back and see if i said what you said i did... and lo! much to my amusement i did. and i stand by those words though probably not with as much wine soaked bravado as it came across. there is nowhere i go where i feel like i dont belong... that much is true. dividing up the city into some sort of tribal lands where a toe over the line will get it cut off or worse isnt how i want to see any city. does that mean i feel the need to test my survival skills by goin' down the ghetto and thumbing my nose at the locals??? no it doesnt.. but as ive said if i have cause to be somewhere then i will be there.i dont think anybody should feel like they cant be anywhere within a city. does that make it clearer?? or perhaps a little bit less muddy than it was?

nothing is so important that I'd set foot in some areas of any city with my safety at risk. I don't live in fear. But I also don't live under a rock.

it's not about "tribal lands" or someone's turf, it's just about crime stats.

catefrances

ofthegirl99 wrote:

catefrances wrote:

Kevinman wrote:

Any city, but I was talking about Chicago.

Chances are when you were here, you were downtown or in tourist areas. This is not where the majority of the city inhabitants live or hang out. I wouldn't be scared to walk there either, but that is a small sample of what the city neighborhoods are really like. Those are the areas with the most police, and the lowest crime.

i was between nth clark st and du paul university... so whats that??? west fullerton??? whatever area it was it wasnt an area i was familiar with seeings how id not been there before. but stilll i didnt fear for my life or think myself in any danger. im sure there are areas of chicago that are considered more dodgy and if i had reason to visit those areas i would.. im not one to just wander areas in order to see what happens... or prove what a hero i am.

West Fullerton Side Fools!!!!!!!!! You should have the attitude that nothing bad can happen in that area. The area you were walking around in is not only one of the wealthiest and cleanest areas of ANY city in the US, its also damn near the safest. :fp:

Go down to 79th and Lowe, tell me how safe you feel in broad daylight.

i wasnt walking around in broad daylight. but as ive said i had no idea about the area i was in and the bigger picture is i wasnt even talking about my very short time in chicago... i was speaking generally in any city ive ever been in.

do i have reason to be in the area surrounding 79th and lowe??? if not then why would i just wander down there?? ive stated more than once i imagine that if i have reason to be somewhere then theres nothing that can really stop me being there... im not someone who goes to a place simply to prove how big my balls are.. has that been ignored or missed in my posts??? .you can slap your face all you like but ive never said i would simply wander willy nilly into a neighbourhood to prove the size of my balls...

Hugh Freaking Dillon

catefrances wrote:

do i have reason to be in the area surrounding 79th and lowe??? if not then why would i just wander down there?? ive stated more than once i imagine that if i have reason to be somewhere then theres nothing that can really stop me being there... im not someone who goes to a place simply to prove how big my balls are.. has that been ignored or missed in my posts??? .you can slap your face all you like but ive never said i would simply wander willy nilly into a neighbourhood to prove the size of my balls...

people are still only paying attention to your first few posts on the matter, which came across as big-balled, not your clarifications, which make more sense.

pandora

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