Charlie Manson still alive....wow

Go Beavers

my2hands said:

A Charles Manson snowflake? lol

Don't worry, I'll celebrate when Dick Cheney, Rummy, and the other American war criminals get buried

But how about the soldier that kills following orders? How about the operative performing torture under orders? How about the guy controllig the drone from a control room when it kills innocent civilians?

It’s that fascinating realm of conformity vs individualtiy, respect authority or question it, leading into the massive grey area of responsibility and motivation. Ultimately deciding on when violence is okay, and when it isn’t.  

PJ_Soul

I don't understand what in the hell other bad people have to do with anything. That issue has no effect whatsoever on how I feel about Charles Manson or the fact that he's finally kicked the bucket.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

unsung said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

tbergs said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

unsung said:

I find it reprehensible that you all cheer on his demise.

It's not like he manufactured wars that led to the deaths of millions of people like that Senator from Arizona.

Charles Manson is in rookie league by comparison.

But I guess perception outweighs truth.

Lol

So you're a Charlie Manson fan? Not surprised. You both believe in conspiracies and crazy speculation.

You think the government is plotting against you. Charlie thought there was going to be a race war. 

I don't get that he's a fan, but he does have somewhat of a point. Manson was a sadistic man who had a lot of evil, but if we want to strictly compare who was responsible or played a part in more deaths, well, then look no further to a certain former president and all those who propagated a war based on WMD's.

Lots of people to say good riddance to in this world.

To be fair, I don't see anyone celebrating his death in this thread unlike someone did with said senator from AZ.

I'm mostly playing with him. He's actually got a very good point.

I'm glad Chuck is gone. He's a psychopathic imbecile.

With that said... Charlie never actually killed people. His cult followers did. It makes the case just that much more bizarre. Why his hippie moron followers never said, "Whoa. You want us to... what?" is beyond me.

How deranged do you have to be to buy his dumb story and execute his plan the way he detailed it? Atkins et al should have been executed. Just sickening.

Don’t backpedal.  Initial reaction was based off of emotion, but after thinking about it the truth is easier to accept.

A murderer is a murderer, just because one wears a suit doesn’t mean that they aren’t the same.  Insanity shows itself in many forms.

Lol

I am not backpedalling. You and Chuck both have some bizarre theories that are not aligned with reality.

In the post you have quoted, I acknowledged there are politicians with blood on their hands.

brianlux

my2hands said:

A Charles Manson snowflake? lol

Don't worry, I'll celebrate when Dick Cheney, Rummy, and the other American war criminals get buried

But how about the soldier that kills following orders? How about the operative performing torture under orders? How about the guy controllig the drone from a control room when it kills innocent civilians?

Excellent questions.  I can't comment on one soldier killing another because I'm against war but it happens.  I'm reading Escape from the Land of Snows by Stephan Talty, a book about the Dalai Lama's escape from Tibet in the 50's, and well into that book the he talks about how the Dalai Lama is pro peace/anti war but at the same time understands the rebel uprising which had led to warring with China.  So horrible as one soldier killing another, it happens.

But as far as torture under orders and killing innocent civilians- that I cut no slack on. 

PJ_Soul

A lot of soldiers are really, really brainwashed though. They have been specifically conditioned to not disobey orders. So I'm not sure it's always fair to condemn soldiers for such actions when they have basically been programmed to carry out such deeds. The military is VERY good at finding the right people who are vulnerable to such conditioning. Condemn the people who went out of their way to turn the soldiers into what they became instead (not to say that as a blanket statement... there are some soldiers who are just monsters... they didn't even need to be conditioned to carry out evil acts).

Go Beavers

Almost everyone has to be brainwashed in order to go kill another person that isn’t presenting an immediate threat. 

Thirty Bills Unpaid

PJ_Soul said:

A lot of soldiers are really, really brainwashed though. They have been specifically conditioned to not disobey orders. So I'm not sure it's always fair to condemn soldiers for such actions when they have basically been programmed to carry out such deeds. The military is VERY good at finding the right people who are vulnerable to such conditioning. Condemn the people who went out of their way to turn the soldiers into what they became instead (not to say that as a blanket statement... there are some soldiers who are just monsters... they didn't even need to be conditioned to carry out evil acts).

It is not so much a predisposition versus simple human nature. The overwhelming majority of people are vulnerable to 'falling in line'.

Read 'Ordinary Men' or look at the Stanford study that reveals human nature is vulnerable to authority.

PJ_Soul

I'm aware of that study and others on the topic. Yes, a lot of people are sheep at the end of the day, sadly .... But plenty of people are not, so that is something. Since there are many people who aren't like that, I don't think calling it human nature is really accurate. I think it's more social conditioning. If it was human nature, there wouldn't be so many people who do have the predisposition to reject authority when they think it's called for. But the military doesn't like those people, obviously. Those are the people who don't make it in the military.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Then you are removing human nature from social conditioning. They are linked for certain.

PJ_Soul

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Then you are removing human nature from social conditioning. They are linked for certain.

Well if you want to look at it like that, literally everything we do is linked to human nature, and being resilient to that social conditioning would also be a part of human nature, so people don't all respond to "human nature" in the same way, in that case. So boiling it down to human nature doesn't exactly help us get into the meaningful details of things. Psychologists and sociologists obviously can't just say "it's human nature" and be done with the discussion. Also, to just attribute such things to "human nature" suggests that there is nothing that can be done about it. I do not believe that to be true. Change society and how it conditions people in certain ways, then you change the behaviour of more and more people.

unsung

Go Beavers said:

Almost everyone has to be brainwashed in order to go kill another person that isn’t presenting an immediate threat. 

I’d agree with that.  I still maintain only a lunatic does such (doing the brainwashing or issuing the order), no matter his social status or income level.

oftenreading

unsung said:

Go Beavers said:

Almost everyone has to be brainwashed in order to go kill another person that isn’t presenting an immediate threat. 

I’d agree with that.  I still maintain only a lunatic does such (doing the brainwashing or issuing the order), no matter his social status or income level.

Pretty loose definition of lunatic, but as long as you aren't trying to equate it to actual mental illness, then okay. 

unsung

On the contrary, these are actions that are deliberate and well thought out.

brianlux

People have the ability to make choices.  Recently, we watched the great film, "Judgment at Nuremberg."  That movie shows that there is a fairly thin line between doing what is right and being coerced to do what is wrong or ignore the wrong doing.  Nevertheless, I personally don't think you can remove all blame for the German people going along with what was happening under Hitler and I say this with do disrespect to the German people today-- it could have been another country as well.  I personally don't cut people any slack for people being "brainwashed" into doing evil.

PJ_Soul

I don't think all murderers are lunatics. I think there can be a difference between being evil and being a lunatic.

brianlux

PJ_Soul said:

I don't think all murders are lunatics. I think there can be a difference between being evil and being a lunatic.

I guess you could say there are sane murderers but I think it depends on how you define "lunatic" or "sane".  I see "lunatic" as being an extreme form of insanity.  It still seems at least somewhat insane to me to murder someone.  

PJ_Soul

brianlux said:

PJ_Soul said:

I don't think all murders are lunatics. I think there can be a difference between being evil and being a lunatic.

I guess you could say there are sane murderers but I think it depends on how you define "lunatic" or "sane".  I see "lunatic" as being an extreme form of insanity.  It still seems at least somewhat insane to me to murder someone.  

I consider an extreme form of insanity to be the only good excuse for murder. Extreme insanity, to me, is a complete break from reality and a true inability to understand the consequences of one's actions, or to have no real control over one's actions at all.
I think a LOT of murders are simply committed by sane people who have shitty control of their temper or who are so self-centered they place their own desires and urges and goals above the lives of others. That isn't insanity. That's just being a shitty person.

oftenreading

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

PJ_Soul said:

I don't think all murders are lunatics. I think there can be a difference between being evil and being a lunatic.

I guess you could say there are sane murderers but I think it depends on how you define "lunatic" or "sane".  I see "lunatic" as being an extreme form of insanity.  It still seems at least somewhat insane to me to murder someone.  

I consider an extreme form of insanity to be the only good excuse for murder. Extreme insanity, to me, is a complete break from reality and a true inability to understand the consequences of one's actions, or to have no real control over one's actions at all.
I think a LOT of murders are simply committed by sane people who have shitty control of their temper or who are so self-centered they place their own desires and urges and goals above the lives of others. That isn't insanity. That's just being a shitty person.

brianlux said:

PJ_Soul said:

I don't think all murders are lunatics. I think there can be a difference between being evil and being a lunatic.

I guess you could say there are sane murderers but I think it depends on how you define "lunatic" or "sane".  I e see "lunatic" as being an extreme form of insanity.  It still seems at least somewhat insane to me to murder someone.  

Agreed. The constant comments, in society in general and particularly in the media, suggesting that every violent incident must be due to mental illness just increases the stigma around those with genuine mental illness and provides an easy excuse for those who chose to act out in anger, for revenge, for ideological reasons, and the like. 

Go Beavers

oftenreading said:

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

PJ_Soul said:

I don't think all murders are lunatics. I think there can be a difference between being evil and being a lunatic.

I guess you could say there are sane murderers but I think it depends on how you define "lunatic" or "sane".  I see "lunatic" as being an extreme form of insanity.  It still seems at least somewhat insane to me to murder someone.  

I consider an extreme form of insanity to be the only good excuse for murder. Extreme insanity, to me, is a complete break from reality and a true inability to understand the consequences of one's actions, or to have no real control over one's actions at all.
I think a LOT of murders are simply committed by sane people who have shitty control of their temper or who are so self-centered they place their own desires and urges and goals above the lives of others. That isn't insanity. That's just being a shitty person.

brianlux said:

PJ_Soul said:

I don't think all murders are lunatics. I think there can be a difference between being evil and being a lunatic.

I guess you could say there are sane murderers but I think it depends on how you define "lunatic" or "sane".  I e see "lunatic" as being an extreme form of insanity.  It still seems at least somewhat insane to me to murder someone.  

Agreed. The constant comments, in society in general and particularly in the media, suggesting that every violent incident must be due to mental illness just increases the stigma around those with genuine mental illness and provides an easy excuse for those who chose to act out in anger, for revenge, for ideological reasons, and the like. 

Murders are planned and others are spontaneous, but the minority are committed by someoned who could be diagnosed paychotic. 

brianlux

Go Beavers said:

oftenreading said:

PJ_Soul said:

brianlux said:

PJ_Soul said:

I don't think all murders are lunatics. I think there can be a difference between being evil and being a lunatic.

I guess you could say there are sane murderers but I think it depends on how you define "lunatic" or "sane".  I see "lunatic" as being an extreme form of insanity.  It still seems at least somewhat insane to me to murder someone.  

I consider an extreme form of insanity to be the only good excuse for murder. Extreme insanity, to me, is a complete break from reality and a true inability to understand the consequences of one's actions, or to have no real control over one's actions at all.
I think a LOT of murders are simply committed by sane people who have shitty control of their temper or who are so self-centered they place their own desires and urges and goals above the lives of others. That isn't insanity. That's just being a shitty person.

brianlux said:

PJ_Soul said:

I don't think all murders are lunatics. I think there can be a difference between being evil and being a lunatic.

I guess you could say there are sane murderers but I think it depends on how you define "lunatic" or "sane".  I e see "lunatic" as being an extreme form of insanity.  It still seems at least somewhat insane to me to murder someone.  

Agreed. The constant comments, in society in general and particularly in the media, suggesting that every violent incident must be due to mental illness just increases the stigma around those with genuine mental illness and provides an easy excuse for those who chose to act out in anger, for revenge, for ideological reasons, and the like. 

Murders are planned and others are spontaneous, but the minority are committed by someoned who could be diagnosed paychotic. 

 LOL.  I know that must have been a typo but surely there must be a clever use for the word "paychotic".

"I've been going to the same expensive counseling service for months now but, honestly, I don't feel any better.  I'm starting to feel more and more paychotic."