Of course he will. It's so clearly a hate crime based on his honest answering of a police dispatcher's question and his under-his-breath complaint about the cold weather that night.
A civil rights case doesn't equal hate crime... I would think that the main issue would be that Zimmerman seems to have been harassing Martin by stalking him with a gun against the direct advice of police, and then shot him (possibly when Martin confronted him about being followed home at gun point?).
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
it is quite possible that zimmerman without the gun looks and acts like this:
and the gun turned him into this:
I am pleased to see you are catching on. Guns are a great equalizer. One of the reasons why every law abiding citizen should be able to carry if they so desire.
Physical strength should not dictate how one can act with others. If Mr. Herman was carrying, Mr. Hogan would have to talk it out instead of breaking his nose and bashing his head on the concrete. If Mr. Hogan didn't know better (that Mr. Herman was carrying) or chose not to consider the consequences, and he still assaults Mr Herman, he does so at his own peril.
Having a CCW keeps the thugs guessing. I like that.
You see this? Looks like a lot of people after a Pearl Jam show (the the guy in the Mt. Dew shirt). The thuggery is crazy. If Mt Dew shirt guy was not intoxicated and could carry in this case, he too should stand his ground.
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
it is quite possible that zimmerman without the gun looks and acts like this:
and the gun turned him into this:
I am pleased to see you are catching on. Guns are a great equalizer. One of the reasons why every law abiding citizen should be able to carry if they so desire.
Physical strength should not dictate how one can act with others. If Mr. Herman was carrying, Mr. Hogan would have to talk it out instead of breaking his nose and bashing his head on the concrete. If Mr. Hogan didn't know better (that Mr. Herman was carrying) or chose not to consider the consequences, and he still assaults Mr Herman, he does so at his own peril.
Having a CCW keeps the thugs guessing. I like that.
You see this? Looks like a lot of people after a Pearl Jam show (the the guy in the Mt. Dew shirt). The thuggery is crazy. If Mt Dew shirt guy was not intoxicated and could carry in this case, he too should stand his ground.
You would relish a society where everyone is packing heat? Really? That's kind of disturbing. :shock:
Edit: Maybe Mr. Herman could learn some karate or lift some weight or stand up for himself. You know, be a man. Carrying a gun and being paranoid is cowardice and can say a lot about one's character. I'm sorry, but fighting someone with your fists is a completely different universe from pulling a gun on someone. Knocking someone out with a left hook is infinitely less devastating than firing a gun at point blank range. Not to mention, you can run away from someone's fists a lot better than you can a bullet.
Post edited by AllNiteThing on
24 years old, mid-life crisis
nowadays hits you when you're young
Of course he will. It's so clearly a hate crime based on his honest answering of a police dispatcher's question and his under-his-breath complaint about the cold weather that night.
A civil rights case doesn't equal hate crime... I would think that the main issue would be that Zimmerman seems to have been harassing Martin by stalking him with a gun against the direct advice of police, and then shot him (possibly when Martin confronted him about being followed home at gun point?).
(possibly when Martin confronted him about being followed home at gun point?). hay buddy why are you pointing a gun at me and following me ? talk about stupid..bring a bag of skittles and a some ice tea to a gun fight ? I bet it went down a lot different than the media and popular opinion say it did,as someone on here already stated "lets wait and see.
Of course he will. It's so clearly a hate crime based on his honest answering of a police dispatcher's question and his under-his-breath complaint about the cold weather that night.
A civil rights case doesn't equal hate crime... I would think that the main issue would be that Zimmerman seems to have been harassing Martin by stalking him with a gun against the direct advice of police, and then shot him (possibly when Martin confronted him about being followed home at gun point?).
(possibly when Martin confronted him about being followed home at gun point?). hay buddy why are you pointing a gun at me and following me ? talk about stupid..bring a bag of skittles and a some ice tea to a gun fight ? I bet it went down a lot different than the media and popular opinion say it did,as someone on here already stated "lets wait and see.
Godfather.
That's really not the point. The point is Zimmerman shouldn't have been stalking Trayvon with a gun against advice of police.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I’d go with that statement if I got into an argument outside a game, concert or bar. HOWEVER, that statement makes no goddamn sense if you are being followed by an unknown person in a vehicle, then on foot by the same unknown person.
my muay thai instructor told me something I will always remember...When asked what the best self defense technique was he thought for a second and said the 400 meter dash. Trayvon could have ran away instead of being involved in a confrontation, if Zimmerman shot him in the back while Trayvon was running away this conversation would be infinitely different.
If, instead of shooting the kid, Zimmerman ran when he felt threatened we wouldn't even be having a discussion at all.
Bad decisions everywhere, and unfortunately we don't know a lot of things and people continue to assume motivations and actions of the people involved.
Hopefully the truth comes out someday
I agree with this. I think Trayvon tried to punk a cop want to be. Trayvon started beating the shit out of him. Zimmerman pulls out the gun to defend himself and kills him.
Side note: don't you think the special prosecutor would have charges by now? I mean why is she setting up a press conference within 72 hours? I find this odd.
We don't know and the media shouldn't be running the trial. Zimmerman needs to be arrested and charged with something. Involuntary manslaughter, murder, whatever. Let the legal system play out. It amazes me that someone can be free after killing someone with a gun and not at least go to trial. Whether he's guilty of wrongdoing or not isn't up to us and the media to decide. It's up to a court.
24 years old, mid-life crisis
nowadays hits you when you're young
my muay thai instructor told me something I will always remember...When asked what the best self defense technique was he thought for a second and said the 400 meter dash. Trayvon could have ran away instead of being involved in a confrontation, if Zimmerman shot him in the back while Trayvon was running away this conversation would be infinitely different.
If, instead of shooting the kid, Zimmerman ran when he felt threatened we wouldn't even be having a discussion at all.
Bad decisions everywhere, and unfortunately we don't know a lot of things and people continue to assume motivations and actions of the people involved.
Hopefully the truth comes out someday
I agree with this. I think Trayvon tried to punk a cop want to be. Trayvon started beating the shit out of him. Zimmerman pulls out the gun to defend himself and kills him.
Side note: don't you think the special prosecutor would have charges by now? I mean why is she setting up a press conference within 72 hours? I find this odd.
We don't know and the media shouldn't be running the trial. Zimmerman needs to be arrested and charged with something. Involuntary manslaughter, murder, whatever. Let the legal system play out. It amazes me that someone can be free after killing someone with a gun and not at least go to trial. Whether he's guilty of wrongdoing or not isn't up to us and the media to decide. It's up to a court.
Well I can't quite agree with this. In clear cases of self-defense where someone killed someone else with a gun, they should not have to go to trial. It's just that in this case it is NOT a clear case of self-defense (plus that stand your ground law is RIDICULOUS, but even so, I don't called following someone around with a gun without even being threatened falls under standing your ground anyway).
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
That's really not the point. The point is Zimmerman shouldn't have been stalking Trayvon with a gun against advice of police.
I'm still waiting for anyone to show me any evidence that Zimmerman kept following Martin after the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that," and Zimmerman replied, "Ok." You might think he may have kept following him, but that's just a guess at best. Stating it as if it's a known fact is irresponsible until there is actual proof that it happened.
That's really not the point. The point is Zimmerman shouldn't have been stalking Trayvon with a gun against advice of police.
I'm still waiting for anyone to show me any evidence that Zimmerman kept following Martin after the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that," and Zimmerman replied, "Ok." You might think he may have kept following him, but that's just a guess at best. Stating it as if it's a known fact is irresponsible until there is actual proof that it happened.
Well since what I think has no impact at all on the case or anyone involved, I don't see what's irresponsible about it. Hey, I don't even think he should have been out there with a gun at all, and that THAT is what's irresponsible and what lead to this whole thing, so...
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I agree with this. I think Trayvon tried to punk a cop want to be. Trayvon started beating the shit out of him. Zimmerman pulls out the gun to defend himself and kills him.
Side note: don't you think the special prosecutor would have charges by now? I mean why is she setting up a press conference within 72 hours? I find this odd.
We don't know and the media shouldn't be running the trial. Zimmerman needs to be arrested and charged with something. Involuntary manslaughter, murder, whatever. Let the legal system play out. It amazes me that someone can be free after killing someone with a gun and not at least go to trial. Whether he's guilty of wrongdoing or not isn't up to us and the media to decide. It's up to a court.
Well I can't quite agree with this. In clear cases of self-defense where someone killed someone else with a gun, they should not have to go to trial. It's just that in this case it is NOT a clear case of self-defense (plus that stand your ground law is RIDICULOUS, but even so, I don't called following someone around with a gun without even being threatened falls under standing your ground anyway).
Aside from killing an intrude in your home, I would think nearly all cases should go through a court of law. Even an intruder in your home, someone could fabricate a story and who is it that makes the judgment call? Some cops? When it involves the death of another human, I don't think we can afford to make discretionary judgment calls at the scene like that.
24 years old, mid-life crisis
nowadays hits you when you're young
We don't know and the media shouldn't be running the trial. Zimmerman needs to be arrested and charged with something. Involuntary manslaughter, murder, whatever. Let the legal system play out. It amazes me that someone can be free after killing someone with a gun and not at least go to trial. Whether he's guilty of wrongdoing or not isn't up to us and the media to decide. It's up to a court.
Well I can't quite agree with this. In clear cases of self-defense where someone killed someone else with a gun, they should not have to go to trial. It's just that in this case it is NOT a clear case of self-defense (plus that stand your ground law is RIDICULOUS, but even so, I don't called following someone around with a gun without even being threatened falls under standing your ground anyway).
Aside from killing an intrude in your home, I would think nearly all cases should go through a court of law. Even an intruder in your home, someone could fabricate a story and who is it that makes the judgment call? Some cops? When it involves the death of another human, I don't think we can afford to make discretionary judgment calls at the scene like that.
That's what police are for. They questions people, evaluate the evidence, and if they and the DAs feel the evidence warrants charges being laid, then the person goes to trial.... If there is no evidence to support or justify a trial, then there obviously can't be one.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
That's really not the point. The point is Zimmerman shouldn't have been stalking Trayvon with a gun against advice of police.
I'm still waiting for anyone to show me any evidence that Zimmerman kept following Martin after the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that," and Zimmerman replied, "Ok." You might think he may have kept following him, but that's just a guess at best. Stating it as if it's a known fact is irresponsible until there is actual proof that it happened.
Well since what I think has no impact at all on the case or anyone involved, I don't see what's irresponsible about it. Hey, I don't even think he should have been out there with a gun at all, and that THAT is what's irresponsible and what lead to this whole thing, so...
If it had no impact at all on the case, why say, "The point is Zimmerman shouldn't have been stalking Trayvon with a gun against the advice of police?" You even called it "the main issue" in an earlier post and implied that Zimmerman was following Martin at gunpoint. That's the first I've heard about the gun being pointed at Marting prior to its use during the fight.
When you say that Zimmerman followed Marting against the advice of the police you're repeating the media-created version of events that says Zimmerman kept following martin after the dispatcher asked him to stop. It's accepted as fact by many people here and repeated multiple times in this thread. It's repeatedly used as "proof" that Zimmerman is guilty and was the instigator in the physical confrontation that ended with Martin being shot.
I'm still waiting for anyone to show me any evidence that Zimmerman kept following Martin after the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that," and Zimmerman replied, "Ok." You might think he may have kept following him, but that's just a guess at best. Stating it as if it's a known fact is irresponsible until there is actual proof that it happened.
Well since what I think has no impact at all on the case or anyone involved, I don't see what's irresponsible about it. Hey, I don't even think he should have been out there with a gun at all, and that THAT is what's irresponsible and what lead to this whole thing, so...
If it had no impact at all on the case, why say, "The point is Zimmerman shouldn't have been stalking Trayvon with a gun against the advice of police?" You even called it "the main issue" in an earlier post and implied that Zimmerman was following Martin at gunpoint. That's the first I've heard about the gun being pointed at Marting prior to its use during the fight.
When you say that Zimmerman followed Marting against the advice of the police you're repeating the media-created version of events that says Zimmerman kept following martin after the dispatcher asked him to stop. It's accepted as fact by many people here and repeated multiple times in this thread. It's repeatedly used as "proof" that Zimmerman is guilty and was the instigator in the physical confrontation that ended with Martin being shot.
Frankly, I've heard close to nothing as far as what the media is saying about the case. I've read the transcripts from the phone call (unedited version), I've read about the neighborhood watch thing they had going (terribly dangerous and stupid), I've heard about the stand your ground law as related to this case, and I've read this guys stupid website. And I posted a disturbing article about racists going vigilante and crazy (neo-nazis vs black panthers crap). That's it. I'm in Canada, so our media isn't flooded with this story at all. I haven't actually seen anything on the TV news about this case up here since right after it happened. I think most Canadians are just rolling their eyes and shaking their heads - no interest or anger north of the border I'm happy to say (annoyance and irritation, yes, as well as disbelief that there are neighborhood watches toting guns - WTF??).
So I'm really not being influenced by the media's spin (if I watched US news networks I would be, but I try to avoid them because they're so full of crap). I've just read some bare-boned facts and I'm happy to admit that I've made some personal conclusions and assumptions based on those things (yes, some of these assumptions are based on the fact that Zimmerman is coming off like a total douche bag and is displaying some really inappropriate behavior given the circumstances) ... From the facts that I know of, it just seems to me very likely that Zimmerman is a cowboy who followed the kid with a gun and kept doing so after being asked not to. Just seems the most likely scenario to me. What I meant is that even if I said that in my opinion Zimmerman is a neo-nazi who probably keeps journals about how he dreams of shooting black kids, it can't really be called irresponsible, because my opinion has no bearing on any part of reality as far as the case or even public opinion goes. Irresponsibility is only such if it has a negative impact on something (btw, I don't think that about Zimmerman obviously. But I do think his behavior IS terribly irresponsible (and fishy), because it has and is having a negative impact on the situation).
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I'm still waiting for anyone to show me any evidence that Zimmerman kept following Martin after the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that," and Zimmerman replied, "Ok." You might think he may have kept following him, but that's just a guess at best. Stating it as if it's a known fact is irresponsible until there is actual proof that it happened.
Well since what I think has no impact at all on the case or anyone involved, I don't see what's irresponsible about it. Hey, I don't even think he should have been out there with a gun at all, and that THAT is what's irresponsible and what lead to this whole thing, so...
If it had no impact at all on the case, why say, "The point is Zimmerman shouldn't have been stalking Trayvon with a gun against the advice of police?" You even called it "the main issue" in an earlier post and implied that Zimmerman was following Martin at gunpoint. That's the first I've heard about the gun being pointed at Marting prior to its use during the fight.
When you say that Zimmerman followed Marting against the advice of the police you're repeating the media-created version of events that says Zimmerman kept following martin after the dispatcher asked him to stop. It's accepted as fact by many people here and repeated multiple times in this thread. It's repeatedly used as "proof" that Zimmerman is guilty and was the instigator in the physical confrontation that ended with Martin being shot.
Im still just trying to figure out if Zimmerman is the self appointed chief of neighborhood watch, does that mean he has particular hours when he is on duty, or is he always in the neighborhood watch? Because generally, they are instructed to NEVER pursue, and NEVER be armed.
First, he approached a stranger he suspected of wrongdoing.
"If you see something suspicious, you report it, you step aside and you let law enforcement do their job," Tutko said. "This guy went way beyond the call of duty. At the least, he's overzealous."
Second, Zimmerman carried a handgun. Police departments and sheriff's offices that train volunteers advise them never to carry weapons — though Zimmerman broke no laws by doing so because he has a concealed-weapons permit.
"There's no reason to carry a gun," Tutko said.
*****
So I guess it depends on how you take it. He was breaking protocol from the get-go. Then he was told not to follow Treyvon and to go back to his car. Then he disagreed, saying the police should call him (likely because he wont be back at his car where he was instructed to go).
Aside from killing an intrude in your home, I would think nearly all cases should go through a court of law. Even an intruder in your home, someone could fabricate a story and who is it that makes the judgment call? Some cops? When it involves the death of another human, I don't think we can afford to make discretionary judgment calls at the scene like that.
It isn't guilty until proven innocent, it is the other way around. If they feel they can prove guilt they will make an arrest, if they don't they won't make an arrest...
If I am not mistaken, they made no decisions at the seen, he was taken to the station for further questioning...hence the video of him at the police station.
just wait for the charges or the exonerating evidence to come out...so far the only thing I know is that an eyewitness saw trayvon on top of zimmerman, if anyone can come to conclusions as to what exactly happened that night based on that eyewitness testimony and a 911 call you are a better criminal investigator than most people who do it for a living.
this isn't CSI it takes time to do all this stuff, especially if they are trying hard to do it right. Why rush to trial only to allow the defense to have you over a barrel because you weren't fully prepared?
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Im still just trying to figure out if Zimmerman is the self appointed chief of neighborhood watch, does that mean he has particular hours when he is on duty, or is he always in the neighborhood watch? Because generally, they are instructed to NEVER pursue, and NEVER be armed.
First, he approached a stranger he suspected of wrongdoing.
"If you see something suspicious, you report it, you step aside and you let law enforcement do their job," Tutko said. "This guy went way beyond the call of duty. At the least, he's overzealous."
Second, Zimmerman carried a handgun. Police departments and sheriff's offices that train volunteers advise them never to carry weapons — though Zimmerman broke no laws by doing so because he has a concealed-weapons permit.
"There's no reason to carry a gun," Tutko said.
*****
So I guess it depends on how you take it. He was breaking protocol from the get-go. Then he was told not to follow Treyvon and to go back to his car. Then he disagreed, saying the police should call him (likely because he wont be back at his car where he was instructed to go).
I have no doubt that Zimmerman made a stupid decision when he got out of his truck. He had no way of knowing if Martin was armed at that point (and I believe he mentioned during the 911 call that Martin's hands were in his pockets at one point, which would have been enough to make me go back to my vehicle at that point whether I was armed or not). I have no way of knowing right now what happened after he hung up the phone that night, so I cannot assume anything without some sort of credible evidence. I hope that someone in that neighborhood saw what happened that night and that information just hasn't leaked yet--and by that I mean I hope someone saw who initiated the conflict, where they were when it started, which direction they were facing, etc.--because aside from a credible eyewitness account or video from someone's home security system we might not ever know how the fight began.
Update: George Zimmerman will be charged later on this evening.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Update as of 1:30pm EST on Tuesday, April 10th
I am attempting to respond to each and everyone of my supporters personally. The support has been overwhelming in volume and strength. I thank you all and ask that you permit me the time to respond to each one of you personally. Once again thank you.
Sincerely,
George Zimmerman
Im still just trying to figure out if Zimmerman is the self appointed chief of neighborhood watch, does that mean he has particular hours when he is on duty, or is he always in the neighborhood watch? Because generally, they are instructed to NEVER pursue, and NEVER be armed.
First, he approached a stranger he suspected of wrongdoing.
"If you see something suspicious, you report it, you step aside and you let law enforcement do their job," Tutko said. "This guy went way beyond the call of duty. At the least, he's overzealous."
Second, Zimmerman carried a handgun. Police departments and sheriff's offices that train volunteers advise them never to carry weapons — though Zimmerman broke no laws by doing so because he has a concealed-weapons permit.
"There's no reason to carry a gun," Tutko said.
*****
So I guess it depends on how you take it. He was breaking protocol from the get-go. Then he was told not to follow Treyvon and to go back to his car. Then he disagreed, saying the police should call him (likely because he wont be back at his car where he was instructed to go).
I have no doubt that Zimmerman made a stupid decision when he got out of his truck. He had no way of knowing if Martin was armed at that point (and I believe he mentioned during the 911 call that Martin's hands were in his pockets at one point, which would have been enough to make me go back to my vehicle at that point whether I was armed or not). I have no way of knowing right now what happened after he hung up the phone that night, so I cannot assume anything without some sort of credible evidence. I hope that someone in that neighborhood saw what happened that night and that information just hasn't leaked yet--and by that I mean I hope someone saw who initiated the conflict, where they were when it started, which direction they were facing, etc.--because aside from a credible eyewitness account or video from someone's home security system we might not ever know how the fight began.
I can agree with that.
And as it stands, I think Zimmerman is 'innocent' according to our shitty laws. Even it is proven that he has a cut on his head, or if it was him screaming on the tape, I still think he was wrong for his actions. (just my opinion). If no witness can say he shot without provocation, he just has to say, in his opinion, that he felt threatened.
Also, wanna see something funny? here's the law that I found:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony;
Update as of 1:30pm EST on Tuesday, April 10th
I am attempting to respond to each and everyone of my supporters personally. The support has been overwhelming in volume and strength. I thank you all and ask that you permit me the time to respond to each one of you personally. Once again thank you.
Sincerely,
George Zimmerman
You'd think the guy might have better things to do... like talk to his lawyers or something. :?
Can't even imagine what SOME of his supporters might be like. Not saying all, but given the circumstances you KNOW some of them are crazies! Such as the guy who tampered with the big digital roadwork sign and made it scream out "TRAYVON IS N
". In Detroit I think? Happened to see that on this random Detroit station's local news while flipping channels. Yikes. Some people are fucked.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Im still just trying to figure out if Zimmerman is the self appointed chief of neighborhood watch, does that mean he has particular hours when he is on duty, or is he always in the neighborhood watch? Because generally, they are instructed to NEVER pursue, and NEVER be armed.
First, he approached a stranger he suspected of wrongdoing.
"If you see something suspicious, you report it, you step aside and you let law enforcement do their job," Tutko said. "This guy went way beyond the call of duty. At the least, he's overzealous."
Second, Zimmerman carried a handgun. Police departments and sheriff's offices that train volunteers advise them never to carry weapons — though Zimmerman broke no laws by doing so because he has a concealed-weapons permit.
"There's no reason to carry a gun," Tutko said.
*****
So I guess it depends on how you take it. He was breaking protocol from the get-go. Then he was told not to follow Treyvon and to go back to his car. Then he disagreed, saying the police should call him (likely because he wont be back at his car where he was instructed to go).
I have no doubt that Zimmerman made a stupid decision when he got out of his truck. He had no way of knowing if Martin was armed at that point (and I believe he mentioned during the 911 call that Martin's hands were in his pockets at one point, which would have been enough to make me go back to my vehicle at that point whether I was armed or not). I have no way of knowing right now what happened after he hung up the phone that night, so I cannot assume anything without some sort of credible evidence. I hope that someone in that neighborhood saw what happened that night and that information just hasn't leaked yet--and by that I mean I hope someone saw who initiated the conflict, where they were when it started, which direction they were facing, etc.--because aside from a credible eyewitness account or video from someone's home security system we might not ever know how the fight began.
I can agree with that.
And as it stands, I think Zimmerman is 'innocent' according to our shitty laws. Even it is proven that he has a cut on his head, or if it was him screaming on the tape, I still think he was wrong for his actions. (just my opinion). If no witness can say he shot without provocation, he just has to say, in his opinion, that he felt threatened.
Also, wanna see something funny? here's the law that I found:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony;
insane if you ask me.
:shock: Totally insane. Like the average joe packing heat knows what is an "imminent commission of a forcible felony" looks like. Some people out there might think someone who looks at them cross-eyed meets that requirement! ... I just don't think people should be walking around the streets with guns at all. If Zimmerman had never had that gun in the first place, none of this would have happened I bet. It's what gave him the zeal he needed to follow Trayvon on foot.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
he's got to make some money yo. can't work now can he?
he could very well make lots of money down the road, just sprayin'
He could work. There are plenty of people out there who see him as some sort of hero, sadly. They'd hire him, probably as their security guard or something. :shock:
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Im still just trying to figure out if Zimmerman is the self appointed chief of neighborhood watch, does that mean he has particular hours when he is on duty, or is he always in the neighborhood watch? Because generally, they are instructed to NEVER pursue, and NEVER be armed.
First, he approached a stranger he suspected of wrongdoing.
"If you see something suspicious, you report it, you step aside and you let law enforcement do their job," Tutko said. "This guy went way beyond the call of duty. At the least, he's overzealous."
Second, Zimmerman carried a handgun. Police departments and sheriff's offices that train volunteers advise them never to carry weapons — though Zimmerman broke no laws by doing so because he has a concealed-weapons permit.
"There's no reason to carry a gun," Tutko said.
*****
So I guess it depends on how you take it. He was breaking protocol from the get-go. Then he was told not to follow Treyvon and to go back to his car. Then he disagreed, saying the police should call him (likely because he wont be back at his car where he was instructed to go).
I have no doubt that Zimmerman made a stupid decision when he got out of his truck. He had no way of knowing if Martin was armed at that point (and I believe he mentioned during the 911 call that Martin's hands were in his pockets at one point, which would have been enough to make me go back to my vehicle at that point whether I was armed or not). I have no way of knowing right now what happened after he hung up the phone that night, so I cannot assume anything without some sort of credible evidence. I hope that someone in that neighborhood saw what happened that night and that information just hasn't leaked yet--and by that I mean I hope someone saw who initiated the conflict, where they were when it started, which direction they were facing, etc.--because aside from a credible eyewitness account or video from someone's home security system we might not ever know how the fight began.
I can agree with that.
And as it stands, I think Zimmerman is 'innocent' according to our shitty laws. Even it is proven that he has a cut on his head, or if it was him screaming on the tape, I still think he was wrong for his actions. (just my opinion). If no witness can say he shot without provocation, he just has to say, in his opinion, that he felt threatened.
Also, wanna see something funny? here's the law that I found:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony;
insane if you ask me.
Yeah, that last part definitely needs to be amended. It seems like that could include a felony that doesn't actually put someone's safety in danger (unless I'm wrong and the inclusion of the word "forcible" means that it is a violent felony against someone). It's one thing if someone's breaking into your home while you're there, but to be able to shoot someone you see breaking into someone else's home or a store seems a little excessive unless you know for a fact that they are attempting to physically harm someone. I mean, wouldn't that technically make it ok to shoot a note-passing bank robber (one who isn't armed and never threatens anyone with violence)? As a former bank teller (and one who has been robbed), I sure as hell wouldn't want someone firing rounds in the lobby at some jackass armed with nothing but a pen and paper.
Clinton says people need to wait for all the facts behind Trayvon Martin's death, but the killing of the 17-year-old should inspire an immediate re-evaluation of Florida's "Stand Your Ground" self-defense law.
"There are different stories being told, so the first thing I have to say is that it's important to find out the facts," Clinton told ABC News.
He added: "But to me, beyond the incredible personal tragedy -- this young man was not armed, he clearly presented no threat to anybody's life -- is, the most important thing I've read was from the former police chief in Florida in the community, he was one of many law enforcement officers testifying against that Stand Your Ground law.
"And he said, you know this is going to create all kinds of problems," Clinton added. "And it's going to be almost impossible to prove what was in someone's mind when a certain thing happened."
From ABC News:
Clinton said "people have always had a right to have a handgun in their home -- to protect their homes. Then we've seen this breathtaking expansion of the concealed weapons laws in America moving from the late 90′s into this decade, far -- if you will -- to the extreme that America had ever been on these.
"And now the Stand Your Ground law," he continued. "I think the law is going to create real problems because anyone can -- anyone who doesn't have a criminal background, anyone not prohibited by the Brady Bill and caught by the checks -- can basically be a part of a neighborhood watch where they have a concealed weapon whether they had proper law enforcement training or not. And whether they've had any experience in conflict situations with people or not.
"So I hope this will lead to a reappraisal of the Stand Your Ground laws," President Clinton said, "and I hope that the truth will come out and that the tragedy of this young man's loss will not be in vain -- it's just terrible. Whatever the facts were -- all these people trying to jump on him and talking about some mistake he made in his life -- that's irrelevant because (of an) unarmed person who was killed on the street by a gun. And so I hope justice will be done in this case but I hope that the larger justice that would somehow redeem a portion of this terrible loss."
He said: "the American people should re-examine their position on that and ask: Is this really worth it? Are we really all that much safer taking the chance that this kind of thing could happen over and over and over again?"
The president made his comments in an exclusive interview with ABC News focused on his work with Clinton Global Initiative University.
The special prosecutor in the Trayvon Martin case will announce criminal charges against George Zimmerman about 6 p.m. ET Wednesday, a law enforcement official told NBC News.
The nature of the charges weren't immediately known, the official told NBC News Justice Department correspondent Pete Williams, speaking on condition of anonymity. But because Angela Corey, the special prosecutor appointed by Florida Gov. Rick Scott to re-examine the case, previously announced that she wouldn't take the case to a grand jury, first-degree murder is not an option
Comments
You would relish a society where everyone is packing heat? Really? That's kind of disturbing. :shock:
Edit: Maybe Mr. Herman could learn some karate or lift some weight or stand up for himself. You know, be a man. Carrying a gun and being paranoid is cowardice and can say a lot about one's character. I'm sorry, but fighting someone with your fists is a completely different universe from pulling a gun on someone. Knocking someone out with a left hook is infinitely less devastating than firing a gun at point blank range. Not to mention, you can run away from someone's fists a lot better than you can a bullet.
nowadays hits you when you're young
(possibly when Martin confronted him about being followed home at gun point?).
Godfather.
That's really not the point. The point is Zimmerman shouldn't have been stalking Trayvon with a gun against advice of police.
We don't know and the media shouldn't be running the trial. Zimmerman needs to be arrested and charged with something. Involuntary manslaughter, murder, whatever. Let the legal system play out. It amazes me that someone can be free after killing someone with a gun and not at least go to trial. Whether he's guilty of wrongdoing or not isn't up to us and the media to decide. It's up to a court.
nowadays hits you when you're young
Well I can't quite agree with this. In clear cases of self-defense where someone killed someone else with a gun, they should not have to go to trial. It's just that in this case it is NOT a clear case of self-defense (plus that stand your ground law is RIDICULOUS, but even so, I don't called following someone around with a gun without even being threatened falls under standing your ground anyway).
I'm still waiting for anyone to show me any evidence that Zimmerman kept following Martin after the dispatcher said, "We don't need you to do that," and Zimmerman replied, "Ok." You might think he may have kept following him, but that's just a guess at best. Stating it as if it's a known fact is irresponsible until there is actual proof that it happened.
Aside from killing an intrude in your home, I would think nearly all cases should go through a court of law. Even an intruder in your home, someone could fabricate a story and who is it that makes the judgment call? Some cops? When it involves the death of another human, I don't think we can afford to make discretionary judgment calls at the scene like that.
nowadays hits you when you're young
That's what police are for. They questions people, evaluate the evidence, and if they and the DAs feel the evidence warrants charges being laid, then the person goes to trial.... If there is no evidence to support or justify a trial, then there obviously can't be one.
If it had no impact at all on the case, why say, "The point is Zimmerman shouldn't have been stalking Trayvon with a gun against the advice of police?" You even called it "the main issue" in an earlier post and implied that Zimmerman was following Martin at gunpoint. That's the first I've heard about the gun being pointed at Marting prior to its use during the fight.
When you say that Zimmerman followed Marting against the advice of the police you're repeating the media-created version of events that says Zimmerman kept following martin after the dispatcher asked him to stop. It's accepted as fact by many people here and repeated multiple times in this thread. It's repeatedly used as "proof" that Zimmerman is guilty and was the instigator in the physical confrontation that ended with Martin being shot.
Frankly, I've heard close to nothing as far as what the media is saying about the case. I've read the transcripts from the phone call (unedited version), I've read about the neighborhood watch thing they had going (terribly dangerous and stupid), I've heard about the stand your ground law as related to this case, and I've read this guys stupid website. And I posted a disturbing article about racists going vigilante and crazy (neo-nazis vs black panthers crap). That's it. I'm in Canada, so our media isn't flooded with this story at all. I haven't actually seen anything on the TV news about this case up here since right after it happened. I think most Canadians are just rolling their eyes and shaking their heads - no interest or anger north of the border I'm happy to say (annoyance and irritation, yes, as well as disbelief that there are neighborhood watches toting guns - WTF??).
So I'm really not being influenced by the media's spin (if I watched US news networks I would be, but I try to avoid them because they're so full of crap). I've just read some bare-boned facts and I'm happy to admit that I've made some personal conclusions and assumptions based on those things (yes, some of these assumptions are based on the fact that Zimmerman is coming off like a total douche bag and is displaying some really inappropriate behavior given the circumstances) ... From the facts that I know of, it just seems to me very likely that Zimmerman is a cowboy who followed the kid with a gun and kept doing so after being asked not to. Just seems the most likely scenario to me. What I meant is that even if I said that in my opinion Zimmerman is a neo-nazi who probably keeps journals about how he dreams of shooting black kids, it can't really be called irresponsible, because my opinion has no bearing on any part of reality as far as the case or even public opinion goes. Irresponsibility is only such if it has a negative impact on something (btw, I don't think that about Zimmerman obviously. But I do think his behavior IS terribly irresponsible (and fishy), because it has and is having a negative impact on the situation).
Im still just trying to figure out if Zimmerman is the self appointed chief of neighborhood watch, does that mean he has particular hours when he is on duty, or is he always in the neighborhood watch? Because generally, they are instructed to NEVER pursue, and NEVER be armed.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/201 ... -zimmerman
"Chris Tutko, director of Neighborhood Watch for the National Sheriffs' Association, said Zimmerman broke some cardinal rules.
First, he approached a stranger he suspected of wrongdoing.
"If you see something suspicious, you report it, you step aside and you let law enforcement do their job," Tutko said. "This guy went way beyond the call of duty. At the least, he's overzealous."
Second, Zimmerman carried a handgun. Police departments and sheriff's offices that train volunteers advise them never to carry weapons — though Zimmerman broke no laws by doing so because he has a concealed-weapons permit.
"There's no reason to carry a gun," Tutko said.
*****
So I guess it depends on how you take it. He was breaking protocol from the get-go. Then he was told not to follow Treyvon and to go back to his car. Then he disagreed, saying the police should call him (likely because he wont be back at his car where he was instructed to go).
It isn't guilty until proven innocent, it is the other way around. If they feel they can prove guilt they will make an arrest, if they don't they won't make an arrest...
If I am not mistaken, they made no decisions at the seen, he was taken to the station for further questioning...hence the video of him at the police station.
just wait for the charges or the exonerating evidence to come out...so far the only thing I know is that an eyewitness saw trayvon on top of zimmerman, if anyone can come to conclusions as to what exactly happened that night based on that eyewitness testimony and a 911 call you are a better criminal investigator than most people who do it for a living.
this isn't CSI it takes time to do all this stuff, especially if they are trying hard to do it right. Why rush to trial only to allow the defense to have you over a barrel because you weren't fully prepared?
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
I have no doubt that Zimmerman made a stupid decision when he got out of his truck. He had no way of knowing if Martin was armed at that point (and I believe he mentioned during the 911 call that Martin's hands were in his pockets at one point, which would have been enough to make me go back to my vehicle at that point whether I was armed or not). I have no way of knowing right now what happened after he hung up the phone that night, so I cannot assume anything without some sort of credible evidence. I hope that someone in that neighborhood saw what happened that night and that information just hasn't leaked yet--and by that I mean I hope someone saw who initiated the conflict, where they were when it started, which direction they were facing, etc.--because aside from a credible eyewitness account or video from someone's home security system we might not ever know how the fight began.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
I am attempting to respond to each and everyone of my supporters personally. The support has been overwhelming in volume and strength. I thank you all and ask that you permit me the time to respond to each one of you personally. Once again thank you.
Sincerely,
George Zimmerman
I can agree with that.
And as it stands, I think Zimmerman is 'innocent' according to our shitty laws. Even it is proven that he has a cut on his head, or if it was him screaming on the tape, I still think he was wrong for his actions. (just my opinion). If no witness can say he shot without provocation, he just has to say, in his opinion, that he felt threatened.
Also, wanna see something funny? here's the law that I found:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony;
insane if you ask me.
Can't even imagine what SOME of his supporters might be like. Not saying all, but given the circumstances you KNOW some of them are crazies! Such as the guy who tampered with the big digital roadwork sign and made it scream out "TRAYVON IS N
". In Detroit I think? Happened to see that on this random Detroit station's local news while flipping channels. Yikes. Some people are fucked.
he could very well make lots of money down the road, just sprayin'
is this a guess or is there a link for it ?
Godfather.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/
Yeah, that last part definitely needs to be amended. It seems like that could include a felony that doesn't actually put someone's safety in danger (unless I'm wrong and the inclusion of the word "forcible" means that it is a violent felony against someone). It's one thing if someone's breaking into your home while you're there, but to be able to shoot someone you see breaking into someone else's home or a store seems a little excessive unless you know for a fact that they are attempting to physically harm someone. I mean, wouldn't that technically make it ok to shoot a note-passing bank robber (one who isn't armed and never threatens anyone with violence)? As a former bank teller (and one who has been robbed), I sure as hell wouldn't want someone firing rounds in the lobby at some jackass armed with nothing but a pen and paper.
Clinton says people need to wait for all the facts behind Trayvon Martin's death, but the killing of the 17-year-old should inspire an immediate re-evaluation of Florida's "Stand Your Ground" self-defense law.
"There are different stories being told, so the first thing I have to say is that it's important to find out the facts," Clinton told ABC News.
He added: "But to me, beyond the incredible personal tragedy -- this young man was not armed, he clearly presented no threat to anybody's life -- is, the most important thing I've read was from the former police chief in Florida in the community, he was one of many law enforcement officers testifying against that Stand Your Ground law.
"And he said, you know this is going to create all kinds of problems," Clinton added. "And it's going to be almost impossible to prove what was in someone's mind when a certain thing happened."
From ABC News:
Clinton said "people have always had a right to have a handgun in their home -- to protect their homes. Then we've seen this breathtaking expansion of the concealed weapons laws in America moving from the late 90′s into this decade, far -- if you will -- to the extreme that America had ever been on these.
"And now the Stand Your Ground law," he continued. "I think the law is going to create real problems because anyone can -- anyone who doesn't have a criminal background, anyone not prohibited by the Brady Bill and caught by the checks -- can basically be a part of a neighborhood watch where they have a concealed weapon whether they had proper law enforcement training or not. And whether they've had any experience in conflict situations with people or not.
"So I hope this will lead to a reappraisal of the Stand Your Ground laws," President Clinton said, "and I hope that the truth will come out and that the tragedy of this young man's loss will not be in vain -- it's just terrible. Whatever the facts were -- all these people trying to jump on him and talking about some mistake he made in his life -- that's irrelevant because (of an) unarmed person who was killed on the street by a gun. And so I hope justice will be done in this case but I hope that the larger justice that would somehow redeem a portion of this terrible loss."
He said: "the American people should re-examine their position on that and ask: Is this really worth it? Are we really all that much safer taking the chance that this kind of thing could happen over and over and over again?"
The president made his comments in an exclusive interview with ABC News focused on his work with Clinton Global Initiative University.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities ... 4XNvlHWa8A