US Marines urinating on dead bodies in Afghanistan
Comments
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I don't think it's something that happens "all the time." I don't think it's the only time a soldier has mistreated a dead body but I don't think it's very common, either. I've had family members and friends in the military covering just about every war since WWII and none of them would ever condone that type of behavior. They're trained to kill but are also trained to treat dead bodies with respect regardless of which side they are on. Acts like that can jeopardize our military's ability to get our own dead soldiers' bodies returned home so their families can have a proper service and some closure. Most soldiers understand that and wouldn't want their own families to endure that extra horror of seeing their bodies mistreated if they were to die.
I also think that the soldier who filmed it would be blamed by the others no matter how it was discovered. If he was filming it because he thought it was funny or cool and he shared it with people as a way of showing off, it's his fault that the video is out there for the world to see. If he was trying to get them in trouble without being a "rat" and posted it so it would be discovered, then he's not just a rat, he's a coward who stood by and watched them do something wrong and didn't even have to guts to report it. Either way, I'm sure the other soldiers know who he is and aren't too happy with him. Had he just turned the footage over to his superiors he would have been better off.polaris_x wrote:Monster Rain wrote:As much as I can understand that being in a war can change a person's mentality and make you want to do something stupid in the heat of the moment, this type of behavior is inexcusable. It goes against everything our soldiers are trained to do. It gives the other side propaganda to use against us, which can help recruit people into terrorist groups who otherwise may not have joined those groups. It also puts their fellow soldiers in danger because a captured soldier could be treated even more harshly as revenge for this. Those same soldiers would be furious beyond comprehension if the other side did that to one of their fellow troops. To do it at all is stupid and unacceptable. To do it while being recorded is monumentally stupid (I haven't watched the clip so I don't know if they knew they were being filmed or not, but in this day and age it's pretty much a safe bet to just assume anything you do outside of your home could be recorded by someone). The only good thing about this being recorded is that it will lead to punishment for everyone involved. My question about it being posted, though, is this: if the person who posted it did it to expose bad behavior, why not just submit the footage to the military and let them handle it?
probably because of what i said ... this is a systemic problem - not an isolated incident ... these things happen all the time and if you "tell" on your fellow soldiers - you are a rat and they will consider you the one to be dealt with ...0 -
polaris_x wrote:
probably because of what i said ... this is a systemic problem - not an isolated incident ... these things happen all the time and if you "tell" on your fellow soldiers - you are a rat and they will consider you the one to be dealt with ...
You have no idea. You are assuming a lot. And with the number of interactions our soldiers have you have no idea how many are good/bad/indifferent.
I agree it's disgusting and they should be held accountable. And I concede that if there wasn't a war it wouldn't happen at all. And I agree that it happening once is once too many.
As you are always asking in other topics, where's your data to prove it's a systemic problem? Or is it just another incident for people to put down the entire armed forces or entire country?hippiemom = goodness0 -
Monster Rain wrote:As much as I can understand that being in a war can change a person's mentality and make you want to do something stupid in the heat of the moment, this type of behavior is inexcusable. It goes against everything our soldiers are trained to do.
I disagree that it goes against everything they're trained to do. They're trained to kill the enemy, and that's done by going through a process of de-humanizing them. So they're trained to de-humanize, but not to do what's in the video, but it just takes a little nudge to go from being able to kill someone to then urinating on their dead body.0 -
You disagree based on what? They are literally told by their superiors to not mistreat the enemy's dead bodies. So mistreating an enemy's dead body absolutely goes against what they are trained to do. Now, it's possible that this group of soldiers may have had a superior who thought this was acceptable behavior, I have no idea one way or the other. But they are still told not to do things like that and they're old enough to know right from wrong when it's such a black and white example as this case. It takes more than a little nudge to go from killing to desecrating a dead body. If that was the case, this sort of thing would be done far more frequently.Go Beavers wrote:Monster Rain wrote:As much as I can understand that being in a war can change a person's mentality and make you want to do something stupid in the heat of the moment, this type of behavior is inexcusable. It goes against everything our soldiers are trained to do.
I disagree that it goes against everything they're trained to do. They're trained to kill the enemy, and that's done by going through a process of de-humanizing them. So they're trained to de-humanize, but not to do what's in the video, but it just takes a little nudge to go from being able to kill someone to then urinating on their dead body.0 -
Monster Rain wrote:I don't think it's something that happens "all the time." I don't think it's the only time a soldier has mistreated a dead body but I don't think it's very common, either. I've had family members and friends in the military covering just about every war since WWII and none of them would ever condone that type of behavior. They're trained to kill but are also trained to treat dead bodies with respect regardless of which side they are on. Acts like that can jeopardize our military's ability to get our own dead soldiers' bodies returned home so their families can have a proper service and some closure. Most soldiers understand that and wouldn't want their own families to endure that extra horror of seeing their bodies mistreated if they were to die.
I also think that the soldier who filmed it would be blamed by the others no matter how it was discovered. If he was filming it because he thought it was funny or cool and he shared it with people as a way of showing off, it's his fault that the video is out there for the world to see. If he was trying to get them in trouble without being a "rat" and posted it so it would be discovered, then he's not just a rat, he's a coward who stood by and watched them do something wrong and didn't even have to guts to report it. Either way, I'm sure the other soldiers know who he is and aren't too happy with him. Had he just turned the footage over to his superiors he would have been better off.
by systemic - i'm not saying every soldier is out there desecrating dead bodies ... but it isn't an isolated incident either ... if you search hard enough, there are new stories every day of improper behaviour from hazing rituals to rape to suicides in the army ...
these kids are sent over there to do things that are just wrong ... how else are you gonna cope? ...
as far as the "rat" - look at the wikileaks case ... the kid released mounds of information of things the military were covering up ... you think he could have just said - hey commander, this is not right and something would be done about it? ... i doubt it ... you think abu ghraib would have resulted in any changes if not for the released pictures? ... the military treats everything in house like a PR campaign - in many respects ... it's just like what Penn State did ... everything is covered up because ultimately, bad PR is the only thing they really care about ...
these actions are not going to create more terrorists ... the occupation is what is creating more terrorists ... these things are part and parcel to those fighting against the occupation ...0 -
cincybearcat wrote:You have no idea. You are assuming a lot. And with the number of interactions our soldiers have you have no idea how many are good/bad/indifferent.
I agree it's disgusting and they should be held accountable. And I concede that if there wasn't a war it wouldn't happen at all. And I agree that it happening once is once too many.
As you are always asking in other topics, where's your data to prove it's a systemic problem? Or is it just another incident for people to put down the entire armed forces or entire country?
dude ... i would love to engage with you on this but after all these years ... you still can't separate your nationalistic pride from these conversations ... i get it - you believe i hate america and everything about it ... nothing i could say or do will change that for you ... it's your immediate reaction to everything i post ...
i've tried over and over but that's all you ever see in what i write ... it takes over so much that in each instance you completely ignore the point i'm trying to make ...0 -
What I mean when I say this type of behavior could create more terrorists is that there may be some people in that part of the world who don't like the US but don't hate us enough to join a terrorist group or do anything like that on their own and there might be people who have a relatively positive view of us compared to other people there. When footage like this comes out, it could change their minds and be the thing that pushes them from hating us to wanting us dead or from being somewhat neutral/positive to negative. It may not create thousands of terrorists, but it could be enough to create even just a few and that's a few more that we have to worry about.polaris_x wrote:Monster Rain wrote:I don't think it's something that happens "all the time." I don't think it's the only time a soldier has mistreated a dead body but I don't think it's very common, either. I've had family members and friends in the military covering just about every war since WWII and none of them would ever condone that type of behavior. They're trained to kill but are also trained to treat dead bodies with respect regardless of which side they are on. Acts like that can jeopardize our military's ability to get our own dead soldiers' bodies returned home so their families can have a proper service and some closure. Most soldiers understand that and wouldn't want their own families to endure that extra horror of seeing their bodies mistreated if they were to die.
I also think that the soldier who filmed it would be blamed by the others no matter how it was discovered. If he was filming it because he thought it was funny or cool and he shared it with people as a way of showing off, it's his fault that the video is out there for the world to see. If he was trying to get them in trouble without being a "rat" and posted it so it would be discovered, then he's not just a rat, he's a coward who stood by and watched them do something wrong and didn't even have to guts to report it. Either way, I'm sure the other soldiers know who he is and aren't too happy with him. Had he just turned the footage over to his superiors he would have been better off.
by systemic - i'm not saying every soldier is out there desecrating dead bodies ... but it isn't an isolated incident either ... if you search hard enough, there are new stories every day of improper behaviour from hazing rituals to rape to suicides in the army ...
these kids are sent over there to do things that are just wrong ... how else are you gonna cope? ...
as far as the "rat" - look at the wikileaks case ... the kid released mounds of information of things the military were covering up ... you think he could have just said - hey commander, this is not right and something would be done about it? ... i doubt it ... you think abu ghraib would have resulted in any changes if not for the released pictures? ... the military treats everything in house like a PR campaign - in many respects ... it's just like what Penn State did ... everything is covered up because ultimately, bad PR is the only thing they really care about ...
these actions are not going to create more terrorists ... the occupation is what is creating more terrorists ... these things are part and parcel to those fighting against the occupation ...0 -
Monster Rain wrote:What I mean when I say this type of behavior could create more terrorists is that there may be some people in that part of the world who don't like the US but don't hate us enough to join a terrorist group or do anything like that on their own and there might be people who have a relatively positive view of us compared to other people there. When footage like this comes out, it could change their minds and be the thing that pushes them from hating us to wanting us dead or from being somewhat neutral/positive to negative. It may not create thousands of terrorists, but it could be enough to create even just a few and that's a few more that we have to worry about.
ya ... for sure ... but understand that your presence there is what is driving there to be more terrorists ... outside of the US - most people believe you guys are there for imperialistic reasons not altruistic ones ... it's evidenced by the control of the opium fields in afghanistan and the oil in iraq ... factor in US historical involvement in the middle east and it shouldn't take too much to realize why there are terrorists ...
are you on the ron paul bandwagon!? ... if so, he says this all the time ... but no one seems to want to believe that the US is there for the wrong reasons ... no one wants that guilt ...0 -
polaris_x wrote:
dude ... i would love to engage with you on this but after all these years ... you still can't separate your nationalistic pride from these conversations ... i get it - you believe i hate america and everything about it ... nothing i could say or do will change that for you ... it's your immediate reaction to everything i post ...
i've tried over and over but that's all you ever see in what i write ... it takes over so much that in each instance you completely ignore the point i'm trying to make ...
Dude, you are wrong. So, nice deflection.
I do think you are overly harsh on your criticism of the US as are a few others. I believe it's hypocrisy at it's finest they way you over generalize incident involving the US, it's military, it's politicians, etc. while ranting about other over generalizing things such as muslim suicide bombers.
That being said, I would like to continue to discuss things with you so I will take your feedback and try to remove any of my "nationalistic pride". It's funny though, because I don't think I have all that much. And before posting on AMT I had less, but the constant barrage kinda makes me more defensive then I probably should be at times. So, go ahead and respond without fear of my nationalistic pride getting in the way.
So what's your point?hippiemom = goodness0 -
cincybearcat wrote:Dude, you are wrong. So, nice deflection.
I do think you are overly harsh on your criticism of the US as are a few others. I believe it's hypocrisy at it's finest they way you over generalize incident involving the US, it's military, it's politicians, etc. while ranting about other over generalizing things such as muslim suicide bombers.
That being said, I would like to continue to discuss things with you so I will take your feedback and try to remove any of my "nationalistic pride". It's funny though, because I don't think I have all that much. And before posting on AMT I had less, but the constant barrage kinda makes me more defensive then I probably should be at times. So, go ahead and respond without fear of my nationalistic pride getting in the way.
So what's your point?
my point summarized is as follows:
the US occupation in the middle east is morally wrong and its motives are to serve an imperialistic agenda and to cater to the military industrial complex ... in order to facilitate this agenda utilizing kids - the propoganda is such that this is about liberating or instilling democracy in a ruthless area and that the people that are opposing these occupations are evil and will do bad things if given the opportunity ... that indoctrination is what needs to happen in order to get these kids to do what you want them to do ... the result is you what you see shown here ... combine that with the high rates of suicide, ptsd, etc ... and you are gonna get these incidents ... this so called war is essentially one large PR campaign ... only public dissent within the US will end this war - nothing else ... the architects of this war know that so the only things that can damage the image is videos and pictures and leaks of this kind of behaviour ... so, if these things don't get leaked - they are covered up ... that is the MO ... people want to believe that these incidents are isolated but if you search hard enough - you can read of many more incidents ... it's just not mainstream news ...0 -
gimmesometruth27 wrote:why am i not surprised?
war fucks people up.
makes them do stupid things.
i reckon when you see dead bodies everyday you kinda get desensitized to it and you have to joke around in the heavy moments.
those guys are in hell over there. they just got out of a firefight so i doubt that with the adrenaline dump they were thinking very clearly.
still, they killed the guys. i guess it was not enough so they had to piss on them as well...
i hate war.
best response I've read on this topic.
Godfather.0 -
some guys are getting pissed on...
umm, sorry to seem cold, but I think the bigger issue here is that THOSE GUYS ARE DEAD.Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.0 -
Monster Rain wrote:You disagree based on what? They are literally told by their superiors to not mistreat the enemy's dead bodies. So mistreating an enemy's dead body absolutely goes against what they are trained to do. Now, it's possible that this group of soldiers may have had a superior who thought this was acceptable behavior, I have no idea one way or the other. But they are still told not to do things like that and they're old enough to know right from wrong when it's such a black and white example as this case. It takes more than a little nudge to go from killing to desecrating a dead body. If that was the case, this sort of thing would be done far more frequently.
The order from superiors may be black and white, but when people are blowing another person's brains out and then they're asked to treat the dead body with respect, that tends to put them in the "grey area" situation. The person is trained to not respect them when they're alive, why when they're dead?0 -
I think if I were those guys, I'd be pissed off that I was dead, not that someone urinated on me afterwards.Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.0
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he still stands wrote:some guys are getting pissed on...
umm, sorry to seem cold, but I think the bigger issue here is that THOSE GUYS ARE DEAD.
Was about to post the same thing. (Well The same point, I think)
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We really have become (for the most part) immune to seeing dead bodies like that. So when we do see something that we don't see too often (unless we like to watch R-kelly Videos) like someone pissing on another, we will miss the bigger issue.
In this case, People are dead, why are they dead, who are they really and a list of other questions that need answers.0 -
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It happened in Korea prior to its division, it happened in China, it happened in Russia (pre-Soviet Union), it happened in the Philippines, it happened in Afghanistan more than once, it happened in Chechnya, it happened in the former Yugoslavia, it happened on Guadalcanal....to paint war atrocities on only two nations is very near-sighted and small-minded....whether it's sticks and stones, spears and arrows or gun and bombs this type of behavior has and will always occur during warfare.Byrnzie wrote:This kind of abuse always goes on during wars of occupation. Soldiers cutting off ears, massacring people in cold blood, shooting passers-by for sport, e.t.c, e.t.c.
It happened in Vietnam, and it happened in Afghanistan and Iraq. And these atrocities will always happen as long as the public in Britain and the U.S choose to remain blinkered to the crimes of their governments.
People are already swallowing the latest bout of media bullshit regarding Iran, less than ten years after they swallowed the bullshit regarding Iraq. So this shit just goes on, and on...
But I suppose that as long as it's not Americans being mutilated and killed then it just doesn't matter.All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.0 -
:evil:Newch91 wrote:
Judging from this article, it appears the person filming was doing it for fun, as the others asked if he's got it on film...we should be grateful those people insist on filming/taking pictures (remember abu ghraib) when they're acting like complete assholes, so at least there's proof and they can be held accountable, which I hope they will.
this is disgusting.0 -
You must have forgotten that we live in a world of unipolarity, and international hegemony for the United States. How convenient that must be for you.tybird wrote:
It happened in Korea prior to its division, it happened in China, it happened in Russia (pre-Soviet Union), it happened in the Philippines, it happened in Afghanistan more than once, it happened in Chechnya, it happened in the former Yugoslavia, it happened on Guadalcanal....to paint war atrocities on only two nations is very near-sighted and small-minded....whether it's sticks and stones, spears and arrows or gun and bombs this type of behavior has and will always occur during warfare.Byrnzie wrote:This kind of abuse always goes on during wars of occupation. Soldiers cutting off ears, massacring people in cold blood, shooting passers-by for sport, e.t.c, e.t.c.
It happened in Vietnam, and it happened in Afghanistan and Iraq. And these atrocities will always happen as long as the public in Britain and the U.S choose to remain blinkered to the crimes of their governments.
People are already swallowing the latest bout of media bullshit regarding Iran, less than ten years after they swallowed the bullshit regarding Iraq. So this shit just goes on, and on...
But I suppose that as long as it's not Americans being mutilated and killed then it just doesn't matter.0 -
What are you talking about? You sound so sure of yourself. Of course, you have not even looked into the fact that plenty of people have written on the subject and found that a large amount of what polaris_x was saying is in fact true. How about you read a book: http://www.amazon.com/Collateral-Damage ... 291&sr=8-1cincybearcat wrote:polaris_x wrote:
probably because of what i said ... this is a systemic problem - not an isolated incident ... these things happen all the time and if you "tell" on your fellow soldiers - you are a rat and they will consider you the one to be dealt with ...
You have no idea. You are assuming a lot. And with the number of interactions our soldiers have you have no idea how many are good/bad/indifferent.
I agree it's disgusting and they should be held accountable. And I concede that if there wasn't a war it wouldn't happen at all. And I agree that it happening once is once too many.
As you are always asking in other topics, where's your data to prove it's a systemic problem? Or is it just another incident for people to put down the entire armed forces or entire country?0
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