Please bring GOD back into our lives!!!!

brandon10

pandora wrote:

FiveB247x wrote:

This is a hypocritical statement by most religious people. You cannot both claim god is innocent of how humans live and the things we do badly in life, yet claim his gospel for the good things that occur. Most religious people claim troubles in their lives to be gods' tests of some sort, yet praise him in the same for their triumphs. If humans are made in gods' image and god has a divine plan from creation til death (for all in the universe that exists), there absolutely has to be some responsibility and input for what god has planned and what humans do individually. You can't have both god's will and free will...and religion points to god's will which would emphasize that people have predetermined destiny and little control of what will happen. This is another reason why praying is a silly notion because if you believe in these concepts, all you're really doing is trying to put yourself at ease in hopes that your words somehow are heard and translate to some specific hope you wish to see come true. But if everything is preordained by god, praying may either be a waste of time cause it's predetermined or you're asking god to change his plan. None of it really coincides nor adds up to some sort of orderly plan.

pandora wrote:

I do not understand blaming God for the life we lead

For me who is not religious follows no religion yet believes in God and the plan
the plan is just that we are and God IS (that is will)
we are here to make our own choices ( free will) walk our path and learn from it.
Knowing God and God's love is the icing on the cake but it changes not the plan in place.
In my opinion we have both God's will which is US and our free will which is what
we need to have to connect to each other and to learn evolve and grow.

I do believe in speaking with God when one feels lost
this can help one to find their way and to find strength to overcome
when they feel they can not.
Often even non believers do this in times of crisis.
It's all good.... it's alright.

If one stops blaming God then God is just a friend.

You should be handing out pamphlets on Hollywood boulevard.

ComeToTX

Which book? A lot of groups claim to have God's book. I guess it depends what country you were born in. Have you read all the books or studied all the religions? How do you know if your God is the real God?

Godfather. wrote:

ComeToTX wrote:

Religious people say that God is All Knowing, All Good and All Powerful. Then how do things like the holocaust, rape, child abuse, genocide, etc... take place? If I were religious it would be hard to reconcile these things. What's the point of a God if he creates evil people and doesn't intervene when they start hurting other people he created?

serious ? we were all given the power of reason...oldest question in the book...read the book and find out bro.

Godfather.

pandora

brandon10 wrote:

pandora wrote:

For me who is not religious follows no religion yet believes in God and the plan
the plan is just that we are and God IS (that is will)
we are here to make our own choices ( free will) walk our path and learn from it.
Knowing God and God's love is the icing on the cake but it changes not the plan in place.
In my opinion we have both God's will which is US and our free will which is what
we need to have to connect to each other and to learn evolve and grow.

I do believe in speaking with God when one feels lost
this can help one to find their way and to find strength to overcome
when they feel they can not.
Often even non believers do this in times of crisis.
It's all good.... it's alright.

If one stops blaming God then God is just a friend.

You should be handing out pamphlets on Hollywood boulevard.

I'm a fan of Hollywood some of my very best memories don't ya know

FiveB247x

Am I misunderstand this or are you saying that even nonreligious people believe in god's and his plan? Anyways, I'm more of a Nihlist so that pretty much ignores the whole "plan" and "gods will" notion.

And much of what you say comes from a good place, but completely ignores the large portion of the world that lives in absolute awful circumstances whether it's poverty, crime, corruption or sickness. What does god give or have planned for the person who dies at age 6 and lives a life of awful destitute and ill? Or perhaps the victims of murder or rape in a lawless land? Is this god's plan...the same one you pat god on the back for? Doesn't seem like something worth compliments to me.

And as for speaking with god, people's fear and weak-natured mindset usually allows for such things. We'd all like to think there's a Santa Claus spreading joy and gifts to those in the world who are "good", but we only feed that bs to kids cause they're naive enough to believe it. Something that brings ease or comfort to us as humans, doesn't make it anything more than that. It's just talking ourselves into an idea to relieve/ease our stress or problems. Addicts (drugs and alcohol) feed their needs with those crutches as well. And that's also why Marx refers to religion as the opiate of the masses.

Anyways, in regards to god as a friend... I for one never had an imaginary friend when I was a child, but as I grew up, I notice a lot more adults do this compared to children.

pandora wrote:

For me who is not religious follows no religion yet believes in God and the plan
the plan is just that we are and God IS (that is will)
we are here to make our own choices ( free will) walk our path and learn from it.
Knowing God and God's love is the icing on the cake but it changes not the plan in place.
In my opinion we have both God's will which is US and our free will which is what
we need to have to connect to each other and to learn evolve and grow.

I do believe in speaking with God when one feels lost
this can help one to find their way and to find strength to overcome
when they feel they can not.
Often even non believers do this in times of crisis.
It's all good.... it's alright.

If one stops blaming God then God is just a friend.

Godfather.

ComeToTX wrote:

Which book? A lot of groups claim to have God's book. I guess it depends what country you were born in. Have you read all the books or studied all the religions? How do you know if your God is the real God?

Godfather. wrote:

ComeToTX wrote:

Religious people say that God is All Knowing, All Good and All Powerful. Then how do things like the holocaust, rape, child abuse, genocide, etc... take place? If I were religious it would be hard to reconcile these things. What's the point of a God if he creates evil people and doesn't intervene when they start hurting other people he created?

serious ? we were all given the power of reason...oldest question in the book...read the book and find out bro.

Godfather.

good question, how do you and others know that there is no God though ?
two sided coin I guess.

Godfather.

keeponrockin

Godfather. wrote:

good question, how do you and others know that there is no God though ?
two sided coin I guess.

Godfather.

I only believe in what can be proven. It is impossible to prove a negative, just like you can't prove Zeus never existed, etc etc..

Until there is evidence something exists, I don't believe in it. Quite simple!

FiveB247x

I don't like absolute answers in life mostly because there's very little that's absolute. Perhaps there is a god, but I would never believe something significant simply based off of faith.

Godfather. wrote:

good question, how do you and others know that there is no God though ?
two sided coin I guess.

Godfather.

pandora

FiveB247x wrote:

Am I misunderstand this or are you saying that even nonreligious people believe in god's and his plan? Anyways, I'm more of a Nihlist so that pretty much ignores the whole "plan" and "gods will" notion.

And much of what you say comes from a good place, but completely ignores the large portion of the world that lives in absolute awful circumstances whether it's poverty, crime, corruption or sickness. What does god give or have planned for the person who dies at age 6 and lives a life of awful destitute and ill? Or perhaps the victims of murder or rape in a lawless land? Is this god's plan...the same one you pat god on the back for? Doesn't seem like something worth compliments to me.

And as for speaking with god, people's fear and weak-natured mindset usually allows for such things. We'd all like to think there's a Santa Claus spreading joy and gifts to those in the world who are "good", but we only feed that bs to kids cause they're naive enough to believe it. Something that brings ease or comfort to us as humans, doesn't make it anything more than that. It's just talking ourselves into an idea to relieve/ease our stress or problems. Addicts (drugs and alcohol) feed their needs with those crutches[/i] as well. And that's also why Marx refers to religion as the opiate of the masses.

Anyways, in regards to god as a friend... I for one never had an imaginary friend when I was a child, but as I grew up, I notice a lot more adults do this compared to children.

Gods plan is US with choices, choices that are cause and effect, choices that bring love
and strength and this is how we are to learn grow and evolve.
So yes one can be nonreligious and believe just that.

If one believes in eternal life
this life is a fraction of that and what we are.
The 6 year old dies... 'it is not dying it is leaving this world '

what response does that cause, how does that make us feel?
What will we do to bring a change? Who will we reach out to?
What will we feel and learn on our path touched by this child?
We are all connected.

It is US that has made this world for this 6 year old.
It is in our power to change it together.

Your words are character put down for others ....
saying those of faith are somehow inferior.
I feel love is strength as God's love is strength, no weakness about it.

This perpetuates problems though when you accuse others of weakness

Throw a RAFT please to those of different beliefs
R .. Respect
A .. Appreciation
F .. Forgiveness
T .. Trust

and they will do the same

JonnyPistachio

I also posted this article in the gay marriage thread, sorry for the duplicate, but it had some interesting religious aspects as well:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/01/ ... e-and-sex/

There was some mention of evolving earlier in this thread that I thought hard about. I don't know why anyone would choose to keep themselves stuck, closely following the guidelines of an outdated book...I hope more can evolve with the times.

FiveB247x

Ok so let me decipher your message... it is ok to preach gods love and joy and "plan" in the guise of evolving, change, spreading/sharing god's love and somehow intertwine your personal beliefs of a god upon everyone else in society, but if a person states their 2 cents about why they do not believe in a god or why they believe others do, that's insensitive or disrespectful? Call me crazy but this is not "tolerance" but intolerance, as you have no real place for describing people who do not believe in any form in a god or your version of such, without demeaning it to some fit some characterization your own beliefs. Look at the original post.. where's the tolerance for people who don't believe such? How come no "RAFT" comments there? Reality is when people who believe in god have their beliefs challenged, they do no preach tolerance, they get defensive and tell others to be tolerant instead of being tolerant themselves. Ever hear the saying, if you're a hammer, everything in life looks like nail? This is exactly what you are doing.. you take everyone's belief or lack their of, and mold it to fit your own personal beliefs. So for your silly acronym, there's a lack of respect, appreciation, forgiveness and trust. I'd prefer people just be direct and call a spade a spade if they belief it rather than try and project a false sense of others beliefs and tolerance.

As for that 6 yr old, it's quite easy to simply pass everything off in the world as human made and fixable by them, while letting a god off the hook.. it's a cop-out in my opinion.

pandora wrote:

Gods plan is US with choices, choices that are cause and effect, choices that bring love
and strength and this is how we are to learn grow and evolve.
So yes one can be nonreligious and believe just that.

If one believes in eternal life
this life is a fraction of that and what we are.
The 6 year old dies... 'it is not dying it is leaving this world '

what response does that cause, how does that make us feel?
What will we do to bring a change? Who will we reach out to?
What will we feel and learn on our path touched by this child?
We are all connected.

It is US that has made this world for this 6 year old.
It is in our power to change it together.

Your words are character put down for others ....
saying those of faith are somehow inferior.
I feel love is strength as God's love is strength, no weakness about it.

This perpetuates problems though when you accuse others of weakness

Throw a RAFT please to those of different beliefs
R .. Respect
A .. Appreciation
F .. Forgiveness
T .. Trust

and they will do the same

he still stands

Godfather. wrote:

[good question, how do you and others know that there is no God though ?
two sided coin I guess.

Godfather.

i think we all need a refresher on epistemology. read up, please http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology

for some people, it is like the possibility of a real life troll with an axe and orange hair living underneath the Ben Franklin bridge. I can't know it doesn't exist, but I sure as hell don't believe that it does. The possibility is SO amazingly low, like way less than .00001%, that any rational person would just say that it is so low that they can assume it doesn't exist and put it out of their mind.

pandora

FiveB247x wrote:

Ok so let me decipher your message... it is ok to preach gods love and joy and "plan" in the guise of evolving, change, spreading/sharing god's love and somehow intertwine your personal beliefs of a god upon everyone else in society, but if a person states their 2 cents about why they do not believe in a god or why they believe others do, that's insensitive or disrespectful? Call me crazy but this is not "tolerance" but intolerance, as you have no real place for describing people who do not believe in any form in a god or your version of such, without demeaning it to some fit some characterization your own beliefs. Look at the original post.. where's the tolerance for people who don't believe such? How come no "RAFT" comments there? Reality is when people who believe in god have their beliefs challenged, they do no preach tolerance, they get defensive and tell others to be tolerant instead of being tolerant themselves. Ever hear the saying, if you're a hammer, everything in life looks like nail? This is exactly what you are doing.. you take everyone's belief or lack their of, and mold it to fit your own personal beliefs. So for your silly acronym, there's a lack of respect, appreciation, forgiveness and trust. I'd prefer people just be direct and call a spade a spade if they belief it rather than try and project a false sense of others beliefs and tolerance.

As for that 6 yr old, it's quite easy to simply pass everything off in the world as human made and fixable by them, while letting a god off the hook.. it's a cop-out in my opinion.

inferring believers are inferior and weak is where the disrespect and insensitivity
of yours comes in...
this the sole reason I mentioned RAFT

RAFT is tolerance I'm sure you can see that and I am asking you to please
not call others weak and inferior because their beliefs are not the same as yours
this a put down

And your first comments here you sound like you are getting very heated and starting
to put down my beliefs which I have a right to state as you do

I am respecting your right to your beliefs can you be respectful mine?

We can agree to disagree and be kind please

FiveB247x

I'm not saying people are weak or inferior, I merely stated why I believe people believe in religion. You can take that as an insult, I do not offer it as one. People are entitled to believe whatever they like, but screaming to the heavens how much you love god or your faith and how others need it as is well in a debate forum is not preaching any of the RAFT, so please feel free to say the same towards the OP, not just the guy speaking his 2 cents about his beliefs or lack their off in a god. I've said it several times before in this thread, believe whatever religion or god or disbelief of both, but keep it to yourself. The world doesn't need proselytizing.

pandora wrote:

inferring believers are inferior and weak is where the disrespect and insensitivity
of yours comes in...
this the sole reason I mentioned RAFT

RAFT is tolerance I'm sure you can see that and I am asking you to please
not call others weak and inferior because their beliefs are not the same as yours
this a put down

And your first comments here you sound like you are getting very heated and starting
to put down my beliefs which I have a right to state as you do

I am respecting your right to your beliefs can you be respectful mine?

We can agree to disagree and be kind please

pandora

keeponrockin wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

good question, how do you and others know that there is no God though ?
two sided coin I guess.

Godfather.

I only believe in what can be proven. It is impossible to prove a negative, just like you can't prove Zeus never existed, etc etc..

Until there is evidence something exists, I don't believe in it. Quite simple!

Yes you have no faith then?

Only believe that which you know, trust to be true. That which has proof.

See I'm the same but for me and maybe others this is God...
it really requires little faith it is based in knowledge.

Something you have not learned or experienced as of yet.....
but something I have. And perhaps something you do not want to experience.

Like love might be an example

I have met those who do not believe in love at first sight, soul mates, lifetime love.
Yet this has been my life experiences therefore I believe but for them
they do not from their experiences.

Or Pearl Jam we can all use that love as an example, as we walk amongst those
who do not grasp the greatness of Pearl Jam, have not seen or heard the proof
and therefore learned the love they can not understand it.

I liken this for understanding only so others can know my understanding of God.
It may not be for them, that is cool, this is just for understanding sake.

I have my proof without a doubt. It is not yours and some will choose to never find proof
but aren't we all glad we found Pearl Jam!

ONCE DEVIDED

pandora wrote:

ComeToTX wrote:

I have relatives that did years in Japanese concentration camps. Tortured for years and lucky to eventually make it home. I have a great uncle who was in Germany for the liberation of Jewish concentration camps. After hearing their stories all my life it's clear to me if there is a God he's not worth praying to.

My father in law, who was like a father to me, also was a POW, in WWII

He and I would never conclude God had anything to do with what
human beings do to other human beings ... this is all on us

but God had everything to do with seeing him through
his hellish ordeal, giving him hope and the will to live,
the light in the darkest hour.

I do not understand blaming God for the life we lead

But if god is all knowing. If all of this is his plan. Why shouldn't he be blamed.
If he created you
If he created me
Didnt he also create adolf hitler.and as such shouldn't he be held responsible for that and what came from that

Above you say he has everything to do with getting him through his hellish ordeal. How so??
I'm not trying to disrespect what your father in law went through just trying to understand why you think it was god that pulled him through. And if he was powerful enough to do that why wasn't it prevented in the first place or why didn't others survive

pandora

FiveB247x wrote:

I'm not saying people are weak or inferior, I merely stated why I believe people believe in religion. You can take that as an insult, I do not offer it as one. People are entitled to believe whatever they like, but screaming to the heavens how much you love god or your faith and how others need it as is well in a debate forum is not preaching any of the RAFT, so please feel free to say the same towards the OP, not just the guy speaking his 2 cents about his beliefs or lack their off in a god. I've said it several times before in this thread, believe whatever religion or god or disbelief of both, but keep it to yourself. The world doesn't need proselytizing.

pandora wrote:

inferring believers are inferior and weak is where the disrespect and insensitivity
of yours comes in...
this the sole reason I mentioned RAFT

RAFT is tolerance I'm sure you can see that and I am asking you to please
not call others weak and inferior because their beliefs are not the same as yours
this a put down

And your first comments here you sound like you are getting very heated and starting
to put down my beliefs which I have a right to state as you do

I am respecting your right to your beliefs can you be respectful mine?

We can agree to disagree and be kind please

you are saying that is why someone believes
from weakness and being inferior yes that is calling them weak and inferior
something used often by nonbelievers but unfounded.


I have never said others need God or faith ... I do not believe this

I replied to the Op and to other posters, most recently to the fact I believe our fate
is in our hands not God, that God is not to blame for our messes

Why are you taking offense to
Respect
Appreciation
Forgiveness
Trust

these are the backbone to all relationships... nothing religious or spiritual about that

I do not understand that :? nor why you think I must remain quiet because you do not agree

there are believers who like to share their thoughts and others who might enjoy
to hear another side

it is your belief we should not rejoice in God and that is yours
but there are others who are free to do just that

pandora

ONCE DEVIDED wrote:

pandora wrote:

My father in law, who was like a father to me, also was a POW, in WWII

He and I would never conclude God had anything to do with what
human beings do to other human beings ... this is all on us

but God had everything to do with seeing him through
his hellish ordeal, giving him hope and the will to live,
the light in the darkest hour.

I do not understand blaming God for the life we lead

But if god is all knowing. If all of this is his plan. Why shouldn't he be blamed.
If he created you
If he created me
Didnt he also create adolf hitler.and as such shouldn't he be held responsible for that and what came from that

Above you say he has everything to do with getting him through his hellish ordeal. How so??
I'm not trying to disrespect what your father in law went through just trying to understand why you think it was god that pulled him through. And if he was powerful enough to do that why wasn't it prevented in the first place or why didn't others survive

God is not here to prevent we are here to experience, learn from those experiences
however tragic and continue on our path of spiritual growth. Our path through
eternity. This is my belief

Cap, my father in law, was an extremely special man ... like a cat...
nine lives and then some.
My point he had looked death in the eyes many times in this lifetime.
Much more than most.Taken these experiences, learned,
grew spiritually.

I know he held God close in his heart. As I do. This love of life itself,
this understanding of the beyond, kept him strong and hopeful
that he would return to his loved ones after the war was over.
This a message of strength from God and that wonderful feeling of never being alone.

I think it is Adolf Hitler and perhaps some others who should be blamed for WWII
not God.

FiveB247x

People do not like believing they live in the unknown, so instead we have religion or god to fill the voids. I am not saying they're inferior for believing in such, but I do think it is some type of crutch - the need to fill in the blank in order to seek greater meaning, faith or guidance in life. If you believe that to be insulting, so be it, to me it is merely an answer to why people believe more so than whether it's positive or negative.

As for RAFT, I think it's a great idea, but reading this thread is proof positive that most do not adhere too it.. including the original poster and in some of your remarks as well.

In terms of bolstering any idea or belief, at some point it becomes not soley "sharing" or "rejoicing" but instead demeaning to outsiders or nonbelievers. In the same tone and manner that there's good and bad patrtiotism/nationalism, something out of rejoice can be used in a negative manner. And for the record, I'd have the same level and type of responses for any post supporting my beliefs. At some point in threads like these, everyone is just seeking reaffirmation of what they already believe through others instead of discussing the topic or trying to learn or grow. And in many instances, people take for granted what they belief and project it upon others. Threads where people have very concrete beliefs, they usually boil down to arguements instead of debates because they're not seeking debate or growth, but instead refute it.

pandora wrote:

you are saying that is why someone believes
from weakness and being inferior yes that is calling them weak and inferior
something used often by nonbelievers but unfounded.


I have never said others need God or faith ... I do not believe this

I replied to the Op and to other posters, most recently to the fact I believe our fate
is in our hands not God, that God is not to blame for our messes

Why are you taking offense to
Respect
Appreciation
Forgiveness
Trust

these are the backbone to all relationships... nothing religious or spiritual about that

I do not understand that :? nor why you think I must remain quiet because you do not agree

there are believers who like to share their thoughts and others who might enjoy
to hear another side

it is your belief we should not rejoice in God and that is yours
but there are others who are free to do just that

pandora

FiveB247x wrote:

People do not like believing they live in the unknown, so instead we have religion or god to fill the voids. I am not saying they're inferior for believing in such, but I do think it is some type of crutch - the need to fill in the blank in order to seek greater meaning, faith or guidance in life. If you believe that to be insulting, so be it, to me it is merely an answer to why people believe more so than whether it's positive or negative.

As for RAFT, I think it's a great idea, but reading this thread is proof positive that most do not adhere too it.. including the original poster and in some of your remarks as well.

In terms of bolstering any idea or belief, at some point it becomes not soley "sharing" or "rejoicing" but instead demeaning to outsiders or nonbelievers. In the same tone and manner that there's good and bad patrtiotism/nationalism, something out of rejoice can be used in a negative manner. And for the record, I'd have the same level and type of responses for any post supporting my beliefs. At some point in threads like these, everyone is just seeking reaffirmation of what they already believe through others instead of discussing the topic or trying to learn or grow. And in many instances, people take for granted what they belief and project it upon others. Threads where people have very concrete beliefs, they usually boil down to arguements instead of debates because they're not seeking debate or growth, but instead refute it.

We will have to agree to disagree on that point...
believing in a religion or God is a crutch ... just don't see that and is probably
why some choose not to believe perhaps
it's all in how one looks at things

and yes I believe that to be insulting I think other believers might to
actually have in the past

I think the threads do not have to go sour if we are kind and understanding and allow each to
rejoice in their own beliefs

This really wasn't a do you believe thread just like the one about republican candidates
and the media/gay marriage that was not yet another debate about the right to marry
although it went that way of course.

I responded to questions from non believers and enjoyed the Op's post very much.
Their enthusiasm endearing to me....
I like excited/passion

and I'm glad you liked RAFT...
I think we can do that for each other or at the least try
we could change the world!


I thought that one up in the hot tub the other night whilst having way too much fun!

catefrances

he still stands wrote:

noooo!!!

i want all the churchey people to admit "I don't know if there's a God" because I can't stand when people are being dishonest with a) themselves or b) other people.

All the atheists too, by the way.

I'm trying to seduce everyone into my agnostic reality tunnel.

for me there is no God. for me that is an absolute. i was born an atheist.. as we all are. as a child i guess i was agnostic.. cause as a child id listen to others and had limited knowledge. then at age 11 i came to the conclusion that there is no God. i have never wavered from that despite the years since asking questions. its not a case of me NOT wanting to believe, tis just up to this point in my life no one has been able to refute my atheist viewpoint... not even God herself. does this mean im likely to find God on my deathbed.. no. does it mean im not open to God being proven to exist... no. is there a touch of arrogance in that last statement... perhaps. no one can make you believe that God exists... no one can prove to you that God exists...only you can do that. but for me there is no God and i wont label myself an agnostic just in case or cause the idea of absolutes dont appeal to some people. this is my reality... but it is not a tunnel cause i can see in all directions.