Embarrassment

Bdog10

Heisenberg wrote:

Mamasan80 wrote:

Phish also charges far less for tickets ($60 for seats), plays longer shows, and puts on a light show that costs significantly more than PJ's rig. Yet somehow they are able to do it right without charging their fans a) $40 a year for a fan club and b) $90 or more per ticket. Once you see their business model, your view of the frequently lauded "value" of the Ten Club changes.

Could it be that Phish offers more to make up for the dreadful music they put out?
For the record, I'm just kidding! No need to turn this into a "To Phish or Not to Phish" thread.

Yeah man please don't go there

Also Phish plays the South

Better Dan

Heisenberg wrote:

Mamasan80 wrote:

Phish also charges far less for tickets ($60 for seats), plays longer shows, and puts on a light show that costs significantly more than PJ's rig. Yet somehow they are able to do it right without charging their fans a) $40 a year for a fan club and b) $90 or more per ticket. Once you see their business model, your view of the frequently lauded "value" of the Ten Club changes.

Could it be that Phish offers more to make up for the dreadful music they put out?
For the record, I'm just kidding! No need to turn this into a "To Phish or Not to Phish" thread.

Where is Phish popular ? I don't even know anyone that knows of Phish nor had I heard of them before this board Looks like they haven't played TX since 98 with the exception of 2010 at ACL festival...maybe that explains it.. I guess they just aren't popular here.

DS1119

Bdog10 wrote:

Heisenberg wrote:

Mamasan80 wrote:

Phish also charges far less for tickets ($60 for seats), plays longer shows, and puts on a light show that costs significantly more than PJ's rig. Yet somehow they are able to do it right without charging their fans a) $40 a year for a fan club and b) $90 or more per ticket. Once you see their business model, your view of the frequently lauded "value" of the Ten Club changes.

Could it be that Phish offers more to make up for the dreadful music they put out?
For the record, I'm just kidding! No need to turn this into a "To Phish or Not to Phish" thread.

Yeah man please don't go there

Also Phish plays the South

Don't love or hate Phish. Really have never listened to them, but just want to give props to my home town here. If you love Italian food GO THERE NOW!...sorry for derailing.

Mamasan80

Better Dan wrote:

Heisenberg wrote:

Mamasan80 wrote:

Phish also charges far less for tickets ($60 for seats), plays longer shows, and puts on a light show that costs significantly more than PJ's rig. Yet somehow they are able to do it right without charging their fans a) $40 a year for a fan club and b) $90 or more per ticket. Once you see their business model, your view of the frequently lauded "value" of the Ten Club changes.

Could it be that Phish offers more to make up for the dreadful music they put out?
For the record, I'm just kidding! No need to turn this into a "To Phish or Not to Phish" thread.

Where is Phish popular ? I don't even know anyone that knows of Phish nor had I heard of them before this board Looks like they haven't played TX since 98 with the exception of 2010 at ACL festival...maybe that explains it.. I guess they just aren't popular here.

To put their popularity in perspective, their 2010 stop at Alpine Valley for 2 shows (as part of their regular tour) sold more tickets than PJ20.

SoonForgotten2

SatansFuton wrote:

I don't think there is any need for people to be embarrassed. This is the internet. People are going to say and do goofy shit because they can. People are going to argue and bicker over whatever when in reality they probably would never be so bold. Regardless of what was said or done in the thread with Mr. Curtis, there is no need to feel embarrassed or ashamed. I don't know him, I bet most of you don't either. And if you didn't post anything crazy in the thread, it shouldn't be on you. Stop worrying about what you think Kelly must think of us. The dude has a badass job, demanding I'm sure, but I doubt having to read some stupid shit is going to ruin his day. I'm sure he came into this knowing (and I'm sure was warned ahead of time by one of the Mods) that it was going to be nutty, and he powered through it like a big boy. It was some crazy stuff posted on a message board, not a home invasion.

As for the complaining. To be honest I see a lot of the same attitudes on other band forums I visit. You can't please everybody, and given a forum to do it in, those that aren't pleased are going to let it be known. I hang out at the Stones site, and people "bitch" every day. We just got a 40 year old bootleg that nobody thought would ever be released officially, but it came in digital form, and it was an amazing surprise, but there are those that are complaining that there was no physical release, or complaining that Keith's guitar is on the left channel and Taylor's on the right (where it is usually the opposite), and a laundry list of other things ranging from legitimate to (in my opinion) downright silly. In the mind of many of us it is the coolest thing ever, but to others it just isn't good enough. Complaining/bitching is not unique to this community. What is unique (from what I've seen) is the finger pointing, hatred, and preaching to people about how they SHOULD behave that I've seen around here. Even with all those complaints over there (and that's just an example from 1 release) people aren't making it their business to tell those people their opinions are bullshit, and I don't see any arguing or name calling. Just as many complaints, but without the same response.

Whenever something happens around here and there are complaints, it seems to me like the most venemous and hateful comments come from the people responding to the complaints. It seems like whatever "negativity" pops its head out, it is met with 10X as much negativity in return, with multiple threads of people "telling it like it is" that range from preachy (although with some good points often being made) to downright hateful. I was just thinking back to the PJ20 festival and a handful of people had said they weren't too happy with the show (I would have loved to be there, but hey, if they weren't happy they weren't happy) and the sheer amount of hatred towards those people and the crazy amount of threads being started saying those people weren't real fans, calling for people giving negative reviews to be booted from the club, and whatever else was insane. Kat was earning her paycheck and them some just by shutting down all the threads "complaining about the complainers". There were more people jumping all over their asses than there were people who had something negative to say in the first place. And when the film came out, a few people posted reviews that weren't thrilled with it, and they got absolutely railed on with some of the most hateful comments I've seen, all because of a movie.

Negativity is negativity, be it aimed at the band/10C, or aimed at members taking pot shots at the band/10C. Can anybody here honestly say they've never complained? Have we always taken everything life gives us as a gift and always seen the silver lining? I seriously doubt it. Calling people names and talking shit to them only further divides a community that is already pretty divided. Why it is so divided I have no clue, I guess we're just a very opinionated bunch. But threads like this aren't any more constructive than the ones complaining about the band, if anything they're worse for the community because it's calling out other people who participate in the community, who we talk to on a day to day basis, as opposed to the powers that be or people that aren't even on the boards. I don't think Kelly Curtis, the Mods, or the band read the message board with a stream of tears rolling down their face. A band like Pearl Jam and their management do not reach the heights they have without wading through criticism and dealing with unsavory people.

The fact that I'm not being very positive, I'm complaining, and that this long winded post is a bit preachy is not lost on me. And I guess I'm just as guilty as anybody else in feeling the urge to get something off my chest and being somewhat scathing about it. But this shit has been bubbling in my pea-sized brain through all the little mini-dramas taking place around here. The most embarrassing thing, in my opinion, should be the way we treat each other around here. And I say that as somebody who knows I can be a real douchebag sometimes.

Absolutely spot-on. Bravo!

Paul Andrews

SatansFuton wrote:

I don't think there is any need for people to be embarrassed.

Satans remarks deleted for space... read his original post above.

You make some brilliant points and on the face of it, I agree with everything you said - however...

I feel was as humans - are really coming unstuck. The propagation of hatred, abuse and rudeness - probably best described as a general loss of grace and respect - in our society is shattering me - "I weep for the future". To accept this and justify it as 'that's just how it is', while most likely true, is sad in that we need to stand up and not accept this status quo and rally against it. I believe this was the point behind Jon Stewart and Stephen Cobert's rally to restor sanity/and/or fear

I'll use all US based examples seeing as I have visited the country many times and watch a lot of US media, but this is not just an American thing - althought it could be argued the genesis of this vitriol is in the American media and political systems where the saturation of mass media and the race for ratings have bought about more sensationalist and conflict driven programming - people like Rupert Murdoch and Rodger Allies have a lot to answer for. Whether it is an overly aggressive tirade on an anonymous forum; a talking head on a partisan news channel (Sean Hannity et al on the right or Chris Matthews et al on the left) abusing their guest; whether it is a fight on Jerry Springer or the latest 'reality' tv housewives bullshit; or a politician demonising their opponents for political gain from their closed minded base; all the way through to countries going to war over questionable reasons; we are really losing something here - and I believe it is causing more harm to our society than people accept. This conflict driven attitude is flowing into many other aspects of our lives and destroying us from within.

By dehumanising or marginalising those who are different breeds a lack of empathy and respect which in turn changes our core values. By manufacturing false controversy and conflict and aiming anger at our brothers we are becoming a species of haters when we know better. This acceptance of conflict and marginalisation in turn turns us against certain groups in our community - normally without justification. I believe you can never really oppress people until you give them someone to hate - someone to use as the scapegoat for their anger and this is how Fox News peddle their bullshit. This quest for ratings and in turn power and money may be totally legal, but it is totally wrong.

We all have different opinions and different ways we chose to live our lives. I am not Christian, Muslim, Hindu or any other religion - I am atheist, however, I accept people's right to believe what they want - so long as they do not impose their views on others. But the more I analyse the world, the more I believe that most Christians are not Christian (this is brilliant by Bill Maher http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAvDtPz33w0 ). I believe what Bill said to be true of most other religions too. By his analysis, when I analyse my own values, I am more Christian than many who hold themselves up as Christian leaders - how could it come to this? It seems many people love to use their views to demonise others but then fail to see how far away they have moved from the core values of their own beliefs.

This conflict driven rhetoric will destroy our civilisation as people adopt unretractable positions and hold them against all logic and against the teachings and core values of our communities and or religions. We have Tea Party members refusing to negotiate and blocking needed change, Republican candidates trying to prove who is the most conservative and turning their backs on more realistic positions, Obama employing the same wall street criminals who created the mess we're all in, schools teaching to tests in order to jump through hoops because of the media spin in effect narrowing and destroying academic endeavour. We are paying a very high price.

The above now seems so far removed from the point we're discussing "Message Forum Etiquette", but I believe it sets the premise for my thesis. We as members of this forum need to aspire to a better standard of behaviour, to live and let live, to understand and accept difference, to show respect. We need to reject the conflict driven rhetoric being spewed by those who do not aim to educate us but to manipulate us - not mirror it in our dealings with each other. We should not be attacking Tim or Kat or Kelly or the band, yes we should be raising concerns, we should be highlighting problems, but we should be doing it in the right way. The thread with Kelly became a clusterfuck of discontent when it could have been a huge opportunity to communicate. It turned into Sean Hannity when it could have been Fareed Zakaria. We all lost an opportunity to open up a new line of communication.

I stopped listening to AET when it started to become a bitchfest of attacking Tim or whoever else was on. Sure, they addressed issues, but it often went over the top with rudeness. I stopped reading and posting on this forum when it just became a bitchfest - as did many other people. I have only recently returned. I love this place and this community. It cost me about a dollar a week to be an international member. That is incredible value - even it I were only to have the opportunity to communicate on this forum, $1 a week f=for access to a moderated, spam free forum is value in itself.

Lets aspire to a better standard and hold ourselves to it. We do not need to become polarised into two groups 'the haters' v 'the sheep'. We need to embrace all views with respect, debate with respect, agree to disagree and work together towards a better future.

Thank you for reading I hoe this all made sense.

One Vision by Queen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJvNvBYTsGw

(God works in mysterious ways)
(I had a dream..)

One man one goal Har! one mission.
One heart one soul just one solution
One flash of light yeah one god one vision

One flesh one bone
One true religion
One voice one hope
One real decision
Wowowowow gimme one vision
Eh!

No wrong no right
I'm gonna tell you there's no black and no white
No blood no stain
All we need is one world wide vision

One flesh one bone
One true religion
One race one hope
One real decision
Wowowowow oh yeah oh yeah oh yeah!

I had a dream
When I was young
A dream of sweet illusion
A glimpse of hope and unity
And visions of one sweet union
But a cold wind blows
And a dark rain falls
And in my heart it shows
Look what they've done to my dreeeeaaams...Ow!

One vision
So give me your hands
Give me your hearts
I'm ready
There's only one direction
One world one nation
Yeah one vision

No hate no fight
Just exultation
All through the night
It's a celebration
Wowowowow yeah

One one one one...
One vision...
(hey!)

One flesh one bone
One true religion
One voice one hope
One real decision

Gimme one light, yeah
Gimme one hope, hey
Just gimme, ah
One man one man
One bar one night
One day hey hey
Just gimme gimme gimme gimme
Fried chicken

Vision...vision...

Hugh Freaking Dillon

Paul Andrews and Satansfuton:

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Heisenberg

Excellent post Paul. Thanks for writing that. :thumbup:

Mikee J

Baaaaaaaa!!!!!!

Happy to be a sheep than a hater.

BF89905

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

Paul Andrews and Satansfuton:

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

I'll echo these sentiments.

rrivers

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

Paul Andrews and Satansfuton:

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Second. If anyone ever wants to read intelligent posts, check out Satansfuton. The guy is always spot on!

Just a quick followup. The main problem here as I see is people take someone disagreeing with their point as a personal attack. (I acknowledge I have been guilty of this.) We also need to realize debate is a good thing and makes this and any board worth going to. Otherwise it would just be "I agree!", "you are so right!", and "great post!".

Paul Andrews makes great points as well. His points about not coming down on the band's management are correct in an ideal world. But I do sympathize with people who have encountered the same problems over and over with regards to purchasing tickets for years. Usually bad service is solved by taking your business elsewhere, but if you want to take advantage of seniority in getting tickets for Pearl Jam this is the only way to do it. And it has been mishandled for a long time. So I understand why some frustration boils over here.

Spiritual_Chaos

Mikee J wrote:

Baaaaaaaa!!!!!!

Happy to be a sheep than a hater.

I rather be neither. I don't woship or hate the 10 club. I have opinions on what work and what not. I don't worship Pearl jam (or maybe I do) and I don't hate them. But I do have opinions about choices they do and what songs are great and which one are not.

bringing forth cristism is not the same as being a hater.

Spiritual_Chaos

I stopped listening to AET when it started to become a bitchfest of attacking Tim or whoever else was on. Sure, they addressed issues, but it often went over the top with rudeness.

I don't know what shielded suger-coated life you live but I think most stuff on AET was straight forward and curtious(sp?) enough. Don't remember many rude people calling in(?)

Yeah, one guy said "Hey Matt come, slow down some songs" (if I remember correctly, could be corrected and maybe this was ruder). But people went all defensive over "fragile" Matt and the band which we can not have "critiscm" towards. Like "how dare we critize them or have opinions - they made Vitalogy!" I mean come on.

I mean, many people want them to slower down some of the songs. Why not tell them you think so? Is that rude in itself? No. (and I don't remember that guy being a dick, maybe he was... then I stand corrected on this example)

Paul Andrews

Spiritual_Chaos wrote:

I stopped listening to AET when it started to become a bitchfest of attacking Tim or whoever else was on. Sure, they addressed issues, but it often went over the top with rudeness.

I don't know what shielded suger-coated life you live but I think most stuff on AET was straight forward and curtious(sp?) enough. Don't remember many rude people calling in(?)

Yeah, one guy said "Hey Matt come, slow down some songs" (if I remember correctly, could be corrected and maybe this was ruder). But people went all defensive over "fragile" Matt and the band which we can not have "critiscm" towards. Like "how dare we critize them or have opinions - they made Vitalogy!" I mean come on.

I mean, many people want them to slower down some of the songs. Why not tell them you think so? Is that rude in itself? No. (and I don't remember that guy being a dick, maybe he was... then I stand corrected on this example)

I don't live in a sugar coated world, I live in the same world as you where people lose their lives over nothing because they bumped up against the wrong person, where politicians behave like babies while accepting bribes from the same interest groups, where people ignore the real issues of life just so long as they get their 'six-pack' every night.

But I think you are right and I over generalised by throwing AET into the list (i think I may have just lost interest in it, especially when my work became very busy), the example you gave was the example I was remembering, and again, it was not the substance of that comment that stood out, it was the manner it was made. And again, this is the point I am making, not that you do not have the right to make a 'negative criticism' - you have every right and I think all opinions are valid. However, that example of a comment about the speed of PJ's songs live could have been a great discussion, but instead the called showed all the guts of pond scum but rudely blurting out 'you play way to fast - you gotta slow those songs down' and then hung up - that's 'troll' behaviour and he was called out for it. He could have addressed this issue by asking why the songs were played faster and if Matt felt this added or subtracted from the live experience. I'm sure Matt would have happily discussed this in a rational manner.

My point is more about manner and respect, not criticism.

Spiritual_Chaos

Paul Andrews wrote:

Spiritual_Chaos wrote:

I stopped listening to AET when it started to become a bitchfest of attacking Tim or whoever else was on. Sure, they addressed issues, but it often went over the top with rudeness.

I don't know what shielded suger-coated life you live but I think most stuff on AET was straight forward and curtious(sp?) enough. Don't remember many rude people calling in(?)

Yeah, one guy said "Hey Matt come, slow down some songs" (if I remember correctly, could be corrected and maybe this was ruder). But people went all defensive over "fragile" Matt and the band which we can not have "critiscm" towards. Like "how dare we critize them or have opinions - they made Vitalogy!" I mean come on.

I mean, many people want them to slower down some of the songs. Why not tell them you think so? Is that rude in itself? No. (and I don't remember that guy being a dick, maybe he was... then I stand corrected on this example)

I don't live in a sugar coated world, I live in the same world as you where people lose their lives over nothing because they bumped up against the wrong person, where politicians behave like babies while accepting bribes from the same interest groups, where people ignore the real issues of life just so long as they get their 'six-pack' every night.

But I think you are right and I over generalised by throwing AET into the list (i think I may have just lost interest in it, especially when my work became very busy), the example you gave was the example I was remembering, and again, it was not the substance of that comment that stood out, it was the manner it was made. And again, this is the point I am making, not that you do not have the right to make a 'negative criticism' - you have every right and I think all opinions are valid. However, that example of a comment about the speed of PJ's songs live could have been a great discussion, but instead the called showed all the guts of pond scum but rudely blurting out 'you play way to fast - you gotta slow those songs down' and then hung up - that's 'troll' behaviour and he was called out for it. He could have addressed this issue by asking why the songs were played faster and if Matt felt this added or subtracted from the live experience. I'm sure Matt would have happily discussed this in a rational manner.

My point is more about manner and respect, not criticism.

Like you I don't fully remember that call. But I agree with you if he was trolling. Stupid of me to bring it up, when i don't even remember in what way the caller said it.

But I do think manner and respect goes both ways. But ofc, you do too
And after what happend and KC way of giving vague answers, answering in an indirect (if that is a wor) fashionand avoiding some questions - I don't think people (Sawyer for example) was off in them "telling it like it was".

UKDave

Paul Andrews wrote:

I don't live in a sugar coated world, I live in the same world as you where people lose their lives over nothing because they bumped up against the wrong person, where politicians behave like babies while accepting bribes from the same interest groups, where people ignore the real issues of life just so long as they get their 'six-pack' every night.

But I think you are right and I over generalised by throwing AET into the list (i think I may have just lost interest in it, especially when my work became very busy), the example you gave was the example I was remembering, and again, it was not the substance of that comment that stood out, it was the manner it was made. And again, this is the point I am making, not that you do not have the right to make a 'negative criticism' - you have every right and I think all opinions are valid. However, that example of a comment about the speed of PJ's songs live could have been a great discussion, but instead the called showed all the guts of pond scum but rudely blurting out 'you play way to fast - you gotta slow those songs down' and then hung up - that's 'troll' behaviour and he was called out for it. He could have addressed this issue by asking why the songs were played faster and if Matt felt this added or subtracted from the live experience. I'm sure Matt would have happily discussed this in a rational manner.

My point is more about manner and respect, not criticism.

Well put and more eloquently than I managed the other night. I was trying to make a similar point on the Kelly thread but didn't quite pull it off :thumbup:

regalturbo

How am I just finding this thread now? Couldn't agree more with the OP and most of the other comments. Sent 10c a supportive/apologetic email a couple months ago after some of the "limited edition" fiasco. I just really enjoy my daily visits to the forum so much more when the majority of the posts are more positive.

kraydayz

Took the words right out of my mouth, I don't post much but I look often and I have seen the childish postings as well and it's about time that someone posted what most of us are thinking. Thank you and great post!!!!

StillHere

I'm just happy to be here

and grateful to get inside the door of a show..any day, any time, any where, any seat

its true