I didn't read any of Kelly's original thread... and I don't plan on revisiting it.
Enough said right there.
Nowhere did I say that I had a problem with people questiong or criticizing the band or the 10C's handling of recent sales. What I have a problem with is the immature and self-involved way that many of you go about doing it. People ranted and raved on here for 2 days about how "people need to be held accountable", "heads need to roll", we need answers!" then when you get what you want and someone actually tries to address some concerns YOU said you wanted addressed, people end up making a mockery of it by flooding the thread with self-involved, egotistical, and and smart ass remarks and comments. Then those same people strut around like peacocks talking about how high and mighty they are like they actually accomplished something.
You guys have as much right to be here is anyone and I personally don't really care what your opinion about the band, the club, or anything else is. My question is though...if you honestly hate the club, if you think the band are greedy and disinterested, then why are you here? Why do you keep paying the fees and going through this if it makes you so miserable? Actually...ya know what, strike that...I'm not interested enough to hear your reasons.
You keep referring to me as part of some club or something, like we have a secret password for the "haters" club and we all plan together how to hijack a thread. Again, I didn't even post in the thread in question, so you lumping me in with the anonymous you from said thread seems silly.
Thinking negatively about the band's business practices does not mean that I don't enjoy their shows. It means I'm a rational person who is able to separate being great at playing music from being absolutely clueless in business. I live in NYC, so the fan club is the best way for me to attempt to get tickets. I see 5-6 shows per tour, and due to my location, they're usually at venues that have been corrupted by broker influence and have public onsales that are rigged. I'm grateful for the service the Ten Club provides, but at the same time it's appalling how it can still be so flawed, and they can still be so stubborn about using the methods that have proven to work for countless other bands of similar stature. If Phish, DMB, Foo Fighters, and even MMJ can run seamless onsales through Artist Arena, Music Today, or even Ticketmaster... why can't Pearl Jam? Why can Kelly come into a thread and claim to be at wit's end on how to fix this when there are perfectly acceptable solutions out there that are not exactly secret?
Your closing comment of "ya know what, strike that...I'm not interested enough to hear your reasons." is exactly the kind of condescending attitude that has made this schism so wide on this board. You're not interested in hearing well thought out responses that don't agree with you, so no matter what else you said in the previous three paragraphs; it's completely negated by the showing of your true colors in conclusion. In trying to dismiss me, you've only served to prove the exact point I made to begin with. Thanks for that, I suppose.
I mirror you're sentiments 100%. It was a big move for KC to address the issues the best he could at this point, which is all I had hoped the 10C would do during all this. I hate the negativity (which is why I stayed away from The Porch lately), and it sucks to know that a lot of people are still mad and dissapointed (clearly with reason... I'm not disputing that), but there are good ways and bad ways to go about it. I hope that it's finally time to move on from all this!!
Give yourself a "High 5"
The thing I like most about time is that it's not real. It's all in the head. Sure, it's a useful trick to use if you want to meet someone at a specific place in the universe and have tea or coffee- but that's all it is- a trick. There is no such thing as the past. It exists only in the memory. There is no such thing as the future. It exists only in our imagination. If our watches were truly accurate, the only thing they would ever say is "Now". That's what time it is. It's "Now". - Damien Echols
awesome post! I just couldn't belive that people on this board have such utter disrespect. I too was completely embarrassed with some of the questions that were being asked.
sawyer, don't you have some lesson plan to do on trench warfare?
You keep referring to me as part of some club or something, like we have a secret password for the "haters" club and we all plan together how to hijack a thread. Again, I didn't even post in the thread in question, so you lumping me in with the anonymous you from said thread seems silly.
Thinking negatively about the band's business practices does not mean that I don't enjoy their shows. It means I'm a rational person who is able to separate being great at playing music from being absolutely clueless in business. I live in NYC, so the fan club is the best way for me to attempt to get tickets. I see 5-6 shows per tour, and due to my location, they're usually at venues that have been corrupted by broker influence and have public onsales that are rigged. I'm grateful for the service the Ten Club provides, but at the same time it's appalling how it can still be so flawed, and they can still be so stubborn about using the methods that have proven to work for countless other bands of similar stature. If Phish, DMB, Foo Fighters, and even MMJ can run seamless onsales through Artist Arena, Music Today, or even Ticketmaster... why can't Pearl Jam? Why can Kelly come into a thread and claim to be at wit's end on how to fix this when there are perfectly acceptable solutions out there that are not exactly secret?
You left Crowdsurge off the list of a company that has run high demand sales. The band wasn't being stubborn, they went with something new this time after Alpine. It seems like the people complaining aren't aware of this and think the ticket sale was internal. The band/10c looked into how to do it differently and made a choice to go with Crowdsurge. A lot of people think it's the 10c's fault that the sale went to crap. It is the fault of the 10c and band that they went with Crowdsurge, but I'm sure it looked like a good choice and that the ticket sales would go well with them at the time.
There's a significant # of people in here that will only be satisfied if they hear immediate apologies from each band member, that the 10c club admit they can't run a business, that they announce they are revamping everything, that the band doesn't really care about the fans and only wants money, and that everyone in the 10c club management resign in shame. I could add that a smaller group of fans will only be happy with annual shows 30 miles from their hometown and hand delivered tickets.
The Kelly Curtis thread had some good and reasonable questions, and I thought the humor in some posts was appropriate given the tension. There was a number of cyclical responses where people wanted to know what happened with the sale, but the only response was "we don't know what happened". "but what happened", "we don't know...." He said the servers were running fine, but people want info that they don't have.
On a somewhat side note, I think it's overblown when people say you can't criticize the band on here. I see a lot threads that start with "I know I'm going to get flamed, but....." and then they don't get flamed and even have a lot of people agree with him/her.
There just seems to be no middle ground in this debate. The 10C diserves some criticism for the last couple of days mess, especially the lack of information of what was going on. But that doesnt mean you as a 10C member can behave like a complete ass hole. Im sure that PJ and the 10C do what they can do give us fans as much benefits as possible.
And as well, now that the ticket sales are over, Im sure most fans got tickets to one or a couple of shows. Maybe not standing, maybe up in the nose bleeds, but this is not magic, there are thousands of us crazy fans competing for the same small amount of tickets, everyone wont get what they want.
So please 10C, get better at communicating with the members, but at the same time, big thanks for all your work, Im very thankful for everything you do for me as a fan, and Im very thankful for the fact that I get to see my favorite band tour year after year.
Merry Christmas everyone
PJ
2000 Roskilde, 2006 Barcelona, 2007 London, Copenhagen, 2008 New York 1, New York 2, 2009 Berlin, 2010 Dublin, Belfast, 2012 Amsterdam 1, Stockholm, Oslo, Copenhagen, 2013 Brooklyn 1, Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014 Milan, Trieste, Berlin, Stockholm, Milton Keynes
You keep referring to me as part of some club or something, like we have a secret password for the "haters" club and we all plan together how to hijack a thread. Again, I didn't even post in the thread in question, so you lumping me in with the anonymous you from said thread seems silly.
Thinking negatively about the band's business practices does not mean that I don't enjoy their shows. It means I'm a rational person who is able to separate being great at playing music from being absolutely clueless in business. I live in NYC, so the fan club is the best way for me to attempt to get tickets. I see 5-6 shows per tour, and due to my location, they're usually at venues that have been corrupted by broker influence and have public onsales that are rigged. I'm grateful for the service the Ten Club provides, but at the same time it's appalling how it can still be so flawed, and they can still be so stubborn about using the methods that have proven to work for countless other bands of similar stature. If Phish, DMB, Foo Fighters, and even MMJ can run seamless onsales through Artist Arena, Music Today, or even Ticketmaster... why can't Pearl Jam? Why can Kelly come into a thread and claim to be at wit's end on how to fix this when there are perfectly acceptable solutions out there that are not exactly secret?
You left Crowdsurge off the list of a company that has run high demand sales. The band wasn't being stubborn, they went with something new this time after Alpine. It seems like the people complaining aren't aware of this and think the ticket sale was internal. The band/10c looked into how to do it differently and made a choice to go with Crowdsurge. A lot of people think it's the 10c's fault that the sale went to crap. It is the fault of the 10c and band that they went with Crowdsurge, but I'm sure it looked like a good choice and that the ticket sales would go well with them at the time.
There's a significant # of people in here that will only be satisfied if they hear immediate apologies from each band member, that the 10c club admit they can't run a business, that they announce they are revamping everything, that the band doesn't really care about the fans and only wants money, and that everyone in the 10c club management resign in shame. I could add that a smaller group of fans will only be happy with annual shows 30 miles from their hometown and hand delivered tickets.
The Kelly Curtis thread had some good and reasonable questions, and I thought the humor in some posts was appropriate given the tension. There was a number of cyclical responses where people wanted to know what happened with the sale, but the only response was "we don't know what happened". "but what happened", "we don't know...." He said the servers were running fine, but people want info that they don't have.
On a somewhat side note, I think it's overblown when people say you can't criticize the band on here. I see a lot threads that start with "I know I'm going to get flamed, but....." and then they don't get flamed and even have a lot of people agree with him/her.
Crowdsurge handled Paul McCartney, and primarily works with smaller artists who do not have fan clubs, etc. Paul McCartney was doing a 4 show tour, in stadiums, and you really can't compare demand on the two. The fanbase for McCartney is mainly older, less internet friendly people, and the face value on the tickets is already so high that there is not the same secondary market for premium seats that there is with a band like Pearl Jam, plus, the stadiums dilute the pool even further because there are more tickets. Using their success with Sir Paul as a baseline indicator for their ability to handle PJ was foolhardy.
Again, the Ten Club ticket system is a gift, and we as fans are lucky to have it. However, that doesn't mean that their complete inability to figure out how to make this work is forgivable. The Ten Club is a multimillion dollar business, not a charity. We give them constant free passes, and it almost seems like some people here are under the impression that this is being done pro bono, and not at massive profit margins - which is flat out incorrect. If they were simply willing to lower their margins and invest more money into doing things the right way, it would only benefit them in the long term.
Crowdsurge handled Paul McCartney, and primarily works with smaller artists who do not have fan clubs, etc. Paul McCartney was doing a 4 show tour, in stadiums, and you really can't compare demand on the two. The fanbase for McCartney is mainly older, less internet friendly people, and the face value on the tickets is already so high that there is not the same secondary market for premium seats that there is with a band like Pearl Jam, plus, the stadiums dilute the pool even further because there are more tickets. Using their success with Sir Paul as a baseline indicator for their ability to handle PJ was foolhardy.
Again, the Ten Club ticket system is a gift, and we as fans are lucky to have it. However, that doesn't mean that their complete inability to figure out how to make this work is forgivable. The Ten Club is a multimillion dollar business, not a charity. We give them constant free passes, and it almost seems like some people here are under the impression that this is being done pro bono, and not at massive profit margins - which is flat out incorrect. If they were simply willing to lower their margins and invest more money into doing things the right way, it would only benefit them in the long term.
You concluding that high demand was the problem, but I don't know if that's the case and that hasn't been stated. It's also not a "complete inability to figure out how to make this work". There's definitely been problems, but you also have to define a well done ticket sale. Some wont say it went well unless every single 10c member gets good seats. I've always got good seats. I got Alpine seats in about 45 min total, and Ed solo seats in 4 minutes. So if I use that as a way to measure it, then there aren't any problems with the system.
I don't see constant free passes. I see the 10c club get reamed in here almost daily.
where did this 'I am going to be a sheep' philosophy get its origin around here?
Just the opposite, actually. I generally defend the Ten Club because I feel that I get value for the money I spend and don't want to see radical changes to the system. It's not to curry favor because (unlike a growing number around here) I'm under no illusion that there is any personal relationship between me and the band or their fan club. They are artists/producers and I am a consumer. If you want to hear fantastic music, the shop's open for business. If you want to feel loved, spend more time with your family and friends. Don't expect to be owed something by someone you've never met. If you're not getting your money's worth, spend it somewhere else and shuffle off with some dignity.
where did this 'I am going to be a sheep' philosophy get its origin around here?
Just the opposite, actually. I generally defend the Ten Club because I feel that I get value for the money I spend and don't want to see radical changes to the system. It's not to curry favor because (unlike a growing number around here) I'm under no illusion that there is any personal relationship between me and the band or their fan club. They are artists/producers and I am a consumer. If you want to hear fantastic music, the shop's open for business. If you want to feel loved, spend more time with your family and friends. Don't expect to be owed something by someone you've never met. If you're not getting your money's worth, spend it somewhere else and shuffle off with some dignity.
Well said. It really is about value. If you don't think the value is there...quit paying $40-$50 per year. I for one also think the value is there for my money.
Crowdsurge handled Paul McCartney, and primarily works with smaller artists who do not have fan clubs, etc. Paul McCartney was doing a 4 show tour, in stadiums, and you really can't compare demand on the two. The fanbase for McCartney is mainly older, less internet friendly people, and the face value on the tickets is already so high that there is not the same secondary market for premium seats that there is with a band like Pearl Jam, plus, the stadiums dilute the pool even further because there are more tickets. Using their success with Sir Paul as a baseline indicator for their ability to handle PJ was foolhardy.
Again, the Ten Club ticket system is a gift, and we as fans are lucky to have it. However, that doesn't mean that their complete inability to figure out how to make this work is forgivable. The Ten Club is a multimillion dollar business, not a charity. We give them constant free passes, and it almost seems like some people here are under the impression that this is being done pro bono, and not at massive profit margins - which is flat out incorrect. If they were simply willing to lower their margins and invest more money into doing things the right way, it would only benefit them in the long term.
You concluding that high demand was the problem, but I don't know if that's the case and that hasn't been stated. It's also not a "complete inability to figure out how to make this work". There's definitely been problems, but you also have to define a well done ticket sale. Some wont say it went well unless every single 10c member gets good seats. I've always got good seats. I got Alpine seats in about 45 min total, and Ed solo seats in 4 minutes. So if I use that as a way to measure it, then there aren't any problems with the system.
I don't see constant free passes. I see the 10c club get reamed in here almost daily.
High demand is a much more likely source of the problem than vague "sabotage." Even if they mean bots were slamming their system (which isn't sabotage, fwiw) that is highly unlikely, especially since the presale has a two ticket limit, and once the bot gets through once, the connection would be blocked from buying more... and it would also require entering additional information that the programs in question do not usually have to deal with. I'm sure it's possible, but it's highly unlikely.
Well done ticket sales happen in fan clubs all the time. I used MMJ's roll call and got tickets for MSG in 30 seconds. Now, they're not a band of PJ's stature, but I've heard nothing but great things about their Roll Call onsales. I've never heard of a single major issue like PJ has had in 13 years of DMB running the Warehouse through Music Today, and I used that system successfully for many years. Phish's Ticket By Mail system doesn't even require a membership, and is open to the general public, and they have never had the system failures PJ has had. Again, that includes dealing with the massive demand of a run like Phish's NYE runs at MSG. It's not the exact same thing, but I'm sure they could figure something out for PJ's fan club.
You're playing a poor straw man with your personal experiences buying 2 shows. I spent 9 hours on the day Alpine went on sale, and when I was able to get tickets, the Ten Club was telling people that the site was down entirely. So clearly they were either misinforming us, or they simply didn't know. Neither is a good thing. We're not talking about small issues here - we're talking about the primary feature of Ten Club membership being bungled repeatedly. It's still a great service, I can't disagree there, but, again, for the amount of money the Ten Club is making, you would think they'd have figured out how to have a smooth onsale for a high demand show in the 5 years of issues we've had. To hear Kelly say that they've given serious consideration to going back to the index card method isn't funny, it's ridiculous... It's 2011 for crying out loud!
I dunno how to feel about the ticket sales and so on. I do feel that there have been mistakes made and reading Kelly Curtis' answers he didn't really seem to indulge himelf much in meaningful replies. However, I don't think it is worth the vitriolic posts that sprang up here. I think they know it was a disaster and I guess they are not sat in ivory towers laughing at our misfortune.
I'm currently debating whether to renew or not and I would for the package I'm given, despite this epic failure with ticketing. The vinyl, deep, t-shirt are a decent enough package. However, the thing that I'm really not sure about it whether it is fun any more. I've been about just a few years but the boards seemed a lot lighter and with much less of a sense of disgruntled entitlement just a couple of years ago. I love the band but I'm not sure how much of a good time this forum is nowadays. Every time I log on I just see endless threads complaining and critiqueing.
I guess people are fully entitled to their moans and I personally wanted some clarification about wristbands just yesterday but I don't think it should all be negative. And it is going that way.
My one real gripe would be posters who bang on about limited edition goods and backpacks and so on, as someone mentioned before. Do you really need all that stuff? Really? Sure there might be demand but isn't the point sometimes to jsut have limited edition stuff so that those who are lucky enough to get it feel the extra value of it. Otherwise the band might as well just burn a few thousand reenk roinks and knock up some blue vs vinyls so we can all have them.
I didn't read any of Kelly's original thread... and I don't plan on revisiting it.
Enough said right there.
Nowhere did I say that I had a problem with people questiong or criticizing the band or the 10C's handling of recent sales. What I have a problem with is the immature and self-involved way that many of you go about doing it. People ranted and raved on here for 2 days about how "people need to be held accountable", "heads need to roll", we need answers!" then when you get what you want and someone actually tries to address some concerns YOU said you wanted addressed, people end up making a mockery of it by flooding the thread with self-involved, egotistical, and and smart ass remarks and comments. Then those same people strut around like peacocks talking about how high and mighty they are like they actually accomplished something.
You guys have as much right to be here is anyone and I personally don't really care what your opinion about the band, the club, or anything else is. My question is though...if you honestly hate the club, if you think the band are greedy and disinterested, then why are you here? Why do you keep paying the fees and going through this if it makes you so miserable? Actually...ya know what, strike that...I'm not interested enough to hear your reasons.
You keep referring to me as part of some club or something, like we have a secret password for the "haters" club and we all plan together how to hijack a thread. Again, I didn't even post in the thread in question, so you lumping me in with the anonymous you from said thread seems silly.
Thinking negatively about the band's business practices does not mean that I don't enjoy their shows. It means I'm a rational person who is able to separate being great at playing music from being absolutely clueless in business. I live in NYC, so the fan club is the best way for me to attempt to get tickets. I see 5-6 shows per tour, and due to my location, they're usually at venues that have been corrupted by broker influence and have public onsales that are rigged. I'm grateful for the service the Ten Club provides, but at the same time it's appalling how it can still be so flawed, and they can still be so stubborn about using the methods that have proven to work for countless other bands of similar stature. If Phish, DMB, Foo Fighters, and even MMJ can run seamless onsales through Artist Arena, Music Today, or even Ticketmaster... why can't Pearl Jam? Why can Kelly come into a thread and claim to be at wit's end on how to fix this when there are perfectly acceptable solutions out there that are not exactly secret?
Your closing comment of "ya know what, strike that...I'm not interested enough to hear your reasons." is exactly the kind of condescending attitude that has made this schism so wide on this board. You're not interested in hearing well thought out responses that don't agree with you, so no matter what else you said in the previous three paragraphs; it's completely negated by the showing of your true colors in conclusion. In trying to dismiss me, you've only served to prove the exact point I made to begin with. Thanks for that, I suppose.
I apologize for lumping you in by using the phrase "you guys" mamasan80. You are right, I didn't have a problem with anything you said and you weren't a part of what irritated me and so many others yesterday so I'm sorry. What I was trying to poorly articulate by using the phrase "you guys" was those of you who seem to be so constantly upset and never pleased with anything, You're also right, the last comment was unnecessary especially when directed at you because you weren't part of the initial problem.
I'll say it for the 900th time though...I don't have a problem with people criticizing the band, it's business practices, etc. I don't have a problem with those that disagree with me in any way. What I have a problem with is arrogantly and immaturely bickering and complaining about things at inappropriate times and in inappropriate ways. If that makes me a "sheep" or a "woo boy" (whatever the hell that means) than so be it.
I apologize for lumping you in by using the phrase "you guys" mamasan80. You are right, I didn't have a problem with anything you said and you weren't a part of what irritated me and so many others yesterday so I'm sorry. What I was trying to poorly articulate by using the phrase "you guys" was those of you who seem to be so constantly upset and never pleased with anything, You're also right, the last comment was unnecessary especially when directed at you because you weren't part of the initial problem.
I'll say it for the 900th time though...I don't have a problem with people criticizing the band, it's business practices, etc. I don't have a problem with those that disagree with me in any way. What I have a problem with is arrogantly and immaturely bickering and complaining about things at inappropriate times and in inappropriate ways. If that makes me a "sheep" or a "woo boy" (whatever the hell that means) than so be it.
I do agree with you there. There is a difference between mature, thoughtful debate and pointless bickering and insults, and that goes for both sides of this argument. I'm sure there was probably more of the latter than the former in the thread in question.
I have been a PJ fan since the beginning and always a big supporter of the 10 club. But recently my feelings have changed towards them, and it's not just because of the ticket system debacle over the past few years. I recently became a fan of Phish and too see how things are done over there is like night and day compared to the 10C. As mentioned above, I don't even pay for a membership but yet I am still able to get tickets. I get the bootlegs an hour after the show. Not months. I get them for free by just entering the TM code on the ticket. Like I said before PJ means the world to me and always will, but I think fans like myself get frustrated because it can be done in a better way. I will still be a member because I want the tickets but boy it really does feel sometimes that the 10C doesn't care. Just my .02
"I want to go...but I don't want to go alone...With you I could never feel alone..."
I have been a PJ fan since the beginning and always a big supporter of the 10 club. But recently my feelings have changed towards them, and it's not just because of the ticket system debacle over the past few years. I recently became a fan of Phish and too see how things are done over there is like night and day compared to the 10C. As mentioned above, I don't even pay for a membership but yet I am still able to get tickets. I get the bootlegs an hour after the show. Not months. I get them for free by just entering the TM code on the ticket. Like I said before PJ means the world to me and always will, but I think fans like myself get frustrated because it can be done in a better way. I will still be a member because I want the tickets but boy it really does feel sometimes that the 10C doesn't care. Just my .02
Phish also charges far less for tickets ($60 for seats), plays longer shows, and puts on a light show that costs significantly more than PJ's rig. Yet somehow they are able to do it right without charging their fans a) $40 a year for a fan club and b) $90 or more per ticket. Once you see their business model, your view of the frequently lauded "value" of the Ten Club changes.
I don't think there is any need for people to be embarrassed. This is the internet. People are going to say and do goofy shit because they can. People are going to argue and bicker over whatever when in reality they probably would never be so bold. Regardless of what was said or done in the thread with Mr. Curtis, there is no need to feel embarrassed or ashamed. I don't know him, I bet most of you don't either. And if you didn't post anything crazy in the thread, it shouldn't be on you. Stop worrying about what you think Kelly must think of us. The dude has a badass job, demanding I'm sure, but I doubt having to read some stupid shit is going to ruin his day. I'm sure he came into this knowing (and I'm sure was warned ahead of time by one of the Mods) that it was going to be nutty, and he powered through it like a big boy. It was some crazy stuff posted on a message board, not a home invasion.
As for the complaining. To be honest I see a lot of the same attitudes on other band forums I visit. You can't please everybody, and given a forum to do it in, those that aren't pleased are going to let it be known. I hang out at the Stones site, and people "bitch" every day. We just got a 40 year old bootleg that nobody thought would ever be released officially, but it came in digital form, and it was an amazing surprise, but there are those that are complaining that there was no physical release, or complaining that Keith's guitar is on the left channel and Taylor's on the right (where it is usually the opposite), and a laundry list of other things ranging from legitimate to (in my opinion) downright silly. In the mind of many of us it is the coolest thing ever, but to others it just isn't good enough. Complaining/bitching is not unique to this community. What is unique (from what I've seen) is the finger pointing, hatred, and preaching to people about how they SHOULD behave that I've seen around here. Even with all those complaints over there (and that's just an example from 1 release) people aren't making it their business to tell those people their opinions are bullshit, and I don't see any arguing or name calling. Just as many complaints, but without the same response.
Whenever something happens around here and there are complaints, it seems to me like the most venemous and hateful comments come from the people responding to the complaints. It seems like whatever "negativity" pops its head out, it is met with 10X as much negativity in return, with multiple threads of people "telling it like it is" that range from preachy (although with some good points often being made) to downright hateful. I was just thinking back to the PJ20 festival and a handful of people had said they weren't too happy with the show (I would have loved to be there, but hey, if they weren't happy they weren't happy) and the sheer amount of hatred towards those people and the crazy amount of threads being started saying those people weren't real fans, calling for people giving negative reviews to be booted from the club, and whatever else was insane. Kat was earning her paycheck and them some just by shutting down all the threads "complaining about the complainers". There were more people jumping all over their asses than there were people who had something negative to say in the first place. And when the film came out, a few people posted reviews that weren't thrilled with it, and they got absolutely railed on with some of the most hateful comments I've seen, all because of a movie.
Negativity is negativity, be it aimed at the band/10C, or aimed at members taking pot shots at the band/10C. Can anybody here honestly say they've never complained? Have we always taken everything life gives us as a gift and always seen the silver lining? I seriously doubt it. Calling people names and talking shit to them only further divides a community that is already pretty divided. Why it is so divided I have no clue, I guess we're just a very opinionated bunch. But threads like this aren't any more constructive than the ones complaining about the band, if anything they're worse for the community because it's calling out other people who participate in the community, who we talk to on a day to day basis, as opposed to the powers that be or people that aren't even on the boards. I don't think Kelly Curtis, the Mods, or the band read the message board with a stream of tears rolling down their face. A band like Pearl Jam and their management do not reach the heights they have without wading through criticism and dealing with unsavory people.
The fact that I'm not being very positive, I'm complaining, and that this long winded post is a bit preachy is not lost on me. And I guess I'm just as guilty as anybody else in feeling the urge to get something off my chest and being somewhat scathing about it. But this shit has been bubbling in my pea-sized brain through all the little mini-dramas taking place around here. The most embarrassing thing, in my opinion, should be the way we treat each other around here. And I say that as somebody who knows I can be a real douchebag sometimes.
"See a broad to get dat booty yak 'em, leg 'er down, a smack 'em yak 'em!"
I have been a PJ fan since the beginning and always a big supporter of the 10 club. But recently my feelings have changed towards them, and it's not just because of the ticket system debacle over the past few years. I recently became a fan of Phish and too see how things are done over there is like night and day compared to the 10C. As mentioned above, I don't even pay for a membership but yet I am still able to get tickets. I get the bootlegs an hour after the show. Not months. I get them for free by just entering the TM code on the ticket. Like I said before PJ means the world to me and always will, but I think fans like myself get frustrated because it can be done in a better way. I will still be a member because I want the tickets but boy it really does feel sometimes that the 10C doesn't care. Just my .02
Phish also charges far less for tickets ($60 for seats), plays longer shows, and puts on a light show that costs significantly more than PJ's rig. Yet somehow they are able to do it right without charging their fans a) $40 a year for a fan club and b) $90 or more per ticket. Once you see their business model, your view of the frequently lauded "value" of the Ten Club changes.
That's exactly my point. For the longest time all I ever knew was the 10C, and I thought it was the best thing sinced slice bread. But once I saw how a band like Phish operates, it really made me think twice about 10C. So I feel like a lot of the anger and negativity towards them over the past few days were justified.
"I want to go...but I don't want to go alone...With you I could never feel alone..."
Phish also charges far less for tickets ($60 for seats), plays longer shows, and puts on a light show that costs significantly more than PJ's rig. Yet somehow they are able to do it right without charging their fans a) $40 a year for a fan club and b) $90 or more per ticket. Once you see their business model, your view of the frequently lauded "value" of the Ten Club changes.
Could it be that Phish offers more to make up for the dreadful music they put out?
For the record, I'm just kidding! No need to turn this into a "To Phish or Not to Phish" thread.
Phish also charges far less for tickets ($60 for seats), plays longer shows, and puts on a light show that costs significantly more than PJ's rig. Yet somehow they are able to do it right without charging their fans a) $40 a year for a fan club and b) $90 or more per ticket. Once you see their business model, your view of the frequently lauded "value" of the Ten Club changes.
Could it be that Phish offers more to make up for the dreadful music they put out?
For the record, I'm just kidding! No need to turn this into a "To Phish or Not to Phish" thread.
Yeah man please don't go there
Also Phish plays the South
Post edited by Bdog10 on
"I want to go...but I don't want to go alone...With you I could never feel alone..."
Phish also charges far less for tickets ($60 for seats), plays longer shows, and puts on a light show that costs significantly more than PJ's rig. Yet somehow they are able to do it right without charging their fans a) $40 a year for a fan club and b) $90 or more per ticket. Once you see their business model, your view of the frequently lauded "value" of the Ten Club changes.
Could it be that Phish offers more to make up for the dreadful music they put out?
For the record, I'm just kidding! No need to turn this into a "To Phish or Not to Phish" thread.
Where is Phish popular ? I don't even know anyone that knows of Phish nor had I heard of them before this board Looks like they haven't played TX since 98 with the exception of 2010 at ACL festival...maybe that explains it.. I guess they just aren't popular here.
2003: San Antonio, Houston, Dallas, Seattle; 2005: Monterrey; 2006: Chicago 1 & 2, Grand Rapids, Cleveland, Detroit; 2008: West Palm Beach, Tampa; 2009: Austin, LA 3 & 4, San Diego; 2010: Kansas City, St. Louis, Columbus, Indianapolis; 2011: PJ20 1 & 2; 2012: Missoula; 2013: Dallas, Oklahoma City, Seattle; 2014: Tulsa; 2016: Columbia, New York City 1 & 2; 2018: London, Seattle 1 & 2; 2021: Ohana; 2022: Oklahoma City
Phish also charges far less for tickets ($60 for seats), plays longer shows, and puts on a light show that costs significantly more than PJ's rig. Yet somehow they are able to do it right without charging their fans a) $40 a year for a fan club and b) $90 or more per ticket. Once you see their business model, your view of the frequently lauded "value" of the Ten Club changes.
Could it be that Phish offers more to make up for the dreadful music they put out?
For the record, I'm just kidding! No need to turn this into a "To Phish or Not to Phish" thread.
Yeah man please don't go there
Also Phish plays the South
Don't love or hate Phish. Really have never listened to them, but just want to give props to my home town here. If you love Italian food GO THERE NOW!...sorry for derailing.
Phish also charges far less for tickets ($60 for seats), plays longer shows, and puts on a light show that costs significantly more than PJ's rig. Yet somehow they are able to do it right without charging their fans a) $40 a year for a fan club and b) $90 or more per ticket. Once you see their business model, your view of the frequently lauded "value" of the Ten Club changes.
Could it be that Phish offers more to make up for the dreadful music they put out?
For the record, I'm just kidding! No need to turn this into a "To Phish or Not to Phish" thread.
Where is Phish popular ? I don't even know anyone that knows of Phish nor had I heard of them before this board Looks like they haven't played TX since 98 with the exception of 2010 at ACL festival...maybe that explains it.. I guess they just aren't popular here.
To put their popularity in perspective, their 2010 stop at Alpine Valley for 2 shows (as part of their regular tour) sold more tickets than PJ20.
I don't think there is any need for people to be embarrassed. This is the internet. People are going to say and do goofy shit because they can. People are going to argue and bicker over whatever when in reality they probably would never be so bold. Regardless of what was said or done in the thread with Mr. Curtis, there is no need to feel embarrassed or ashamed. I don't know him, I bet most of you don't either. And if you didn't post anything crazy in the thread, it shouldn't be on you. Stop worrying about what you think Kelly must think of us. The dude has a badass job, demanding I'm sure, but I doubt having to read some stupid shit is going to ruin his day. I'm sure he came into this knowing (and I'm sure was warned ahead of time by one of the Mods) that it was going to be nutty, and he powered through it like a big boy. It was some crazy stuff posted on a message board, not a home invasion.
As for the complaining. To be honest I see a lot of the same attitudes on other band forums I visit. You can't please everybody, and given a forum to do it in, those that aren't pleased are going to let it be known. I hang out at the Stones site, and people "bitch" every day. We just got a 40 year old bootleg that nobody thought would ever be released officially, but it came in digital form, and it was an amazing surprise, but there are those that are complaining that there was no physical release, or complaining that Keith's guitar is on the left channel and Taylor's on the right (where it is usually the opposite), and a laundry list of other things ranging from legitimate to (in my opinion) downright silly. In the mind of many of us it is the coolest thing ever, but to others it just isn't good enough. Complaining/bitching is not unique to this community. What is unique (from what I've seen) is the finger pointing, hatred, and preaching to people about how they SHOULD behave that I've seen around here. Even with all those complaints over there (and that's just an example from 1 release) people aren't making it their business to tell those people their opinions are bullshit, and I don't see any arguing or name calling. Just as many complaints, but without the same response.
Whenever something happens around here and there are complaints, it seems to me like the most venemous and hateful comments come from the people responding to the complaints. It seems like whatever "negativity" pops its head out, it is met with 10X as much negativity in return, with multiple threads of people "telling it like it is" that range from preachy (although with some good points often being made) to downright hateful. I was just thinking back to the PJ20 festival and a handful of people had said they weren't too happy with the show (I would have loved to be there, but hey, if they weren't happy they weren't happy) and the sheer amount of hatred towards those people and the crazy amount of threads being started saying those people weren't real fans, calling for people giving negative reviews to be booted from the club, and whatever else was insane. Kat was earning her paycheck and them some just by shutting down all the threads "complaining about the complainers". There were more people jumping all over their asses than there were people who had something negative to say in the first place. And when the film came out, a few people posted reviews that weren't thrilled with it, and they got absolutely railed on with some of the most hateful comments I've seen, all because of a movie.
Negativity is negativity, be it aimed at the band/10C, or aimed at members taking pot shots at the band/10C. Can anybody here honestly say they've never complained? Have we always taken everything life gives us as a gift and always seen the silver lining? I seriously doubt it. Calling people names and talking shit to them only further divides a community that is already pretty divided. Why it is so divided I have no clue, I guess we're just a very opinionated bunch. But threads like this aren't any more constructive than the ones complaining about the band, if anything they're worse for the community because it's calling out other people who participate in the community, who we talk to on a day to day basis, as opposed to the powers that be or people that aren't even on the boards. I don't think Kelly Curtis, the Mods, or the band read the message board with a stream of tears rolling down their face. A band like Pearl Jam and their management do not reach the heights they have without wading through criticism and dealing with unsavory people.
The fact that I'm not being very positive, I'm complaining, and that this long winded post is a bit preachy is not lost on me. And I guess I'm just as guilty as anybody else in feeling the urge to get something off my chest and being somewhat scathing about it. But this shit has been bubbling in my pea-sized brain through all the little mini-dramas taking place around here. The most embarrassing thing, in my opinion, should be the way we treat each other around here. And I say that as somebody who knows I can be a real douchebag sometimes.
I don't think there is any need for people to be embarrassed.
Satans remarks deleted for space... read his original post above.
You make some brilliant points and on the face of it, I agree with everything you said - however...
I feel was as humans - are really coming unstuck. The propagation of hatred, abuse and rudeness - probably best described as a general loss of grace and respect - in our society is shattering me - "I weep for the future". To accept this and justify it as 'that's just how it is', while most likely true, is sad in that we need to stand up and not accept this status quo and rally against it. I believe this was the point behind Jon Stewart and Stephen Cobert's rally to restor sanity/and/or fear
I'll use all US based examples seeing as I have visited the country many times and watch a lot of US media, but this is not just an American thing - althought it could be argued the genesis of this vitriol is in the American media and political systems where the saturation of mass media and the race for ratings have bought about more sensationalist and conflict driven programming - people like Rupert Murdoch and Rodger Allies have a lot to answer for. Whether it is an overly aggressive tirade on an anonymous forum; a talking head on a partisan news channel (Sean Hannity et al on the right or Chris Matthews et al on the left) abusing their guest; whether it is a fight on Jerry Springer or the latest 'reality' tv housewives bullshit; or a politician demonising their opponents for political gain from their closed minded base; all the way through to countries going to war over questionable reasons; we are really losing something here - and I believe it is causing more harm to our society than people accept. This conflict driven attitude is flowing into many other aspects of our lives and destroying us from within.
By dehumanising or marginalising those who are different breeds a lack of empathy and respect which in turn changes our core values. By manufacturing false controversy and conflict and aiming anger at our brothers we are becoming a species of haters when we know better. This acceptance of conflict and marginalisation in turn turns us against certain groups in our community - normally without justification. I believe you can never really oppress people until you give them someone to hate - someone to use as the scapegoat for their anger and this is how Fox News peddle their bullshit. This quest for ratings and in turn power and money may be totally legal, but it is totally wrong.
We all have different opinions and different ways we chose to live our lives. I am not Christian, Muslim, Hindu or any other religion - I am atheist, however, I accept people's right to believe what they want - so long as they do not impose their views on others. But the more I analyse the world, the more I believe that most Christians are not Christian (this is brilliant by Bill Maher http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAvDtPz33w0 ). I believe what Bill said to be true of most other religions too. By his analysis, when I analyse my own values, I am more Christian than many who hold themselves up as Christian leaders - how could it come to this? It seems many people love to use their views to demonise others but then fail to see how far away they have moved from the core values of their own beliefs.
This conflict driven rhetoric will destroy our civilisation as people adopt unretractable positions and hold them against all logic and against the teachings and core values of our communities and or religions. We have Tea Party members refusing to negotiate and blocking needed change, Republican candidates trying to prove who is the most conservative and turning their backs on more realistic positions, Obama employing the same wall street criminals who created the mess we're all in, schools teaching to tests in order to jump through hoops because of the media spin in effect narrowing and destroying academic endeavour. We are paying a very high price.
The above now seems so far removed from the point we're discussing "Message Forum Etiquette", but I believe it sets the premise for my thesis. We as members of this forum need to aspire to a better standard of behaviour, to live and let live, to understand and accept difference, to show respect. We need to reject the conflict driven rhetoric being spewed by those who do not aim to educate us but to manipulate us - not mirror it in our dealings with each other. We should not be attacking Tim or Kat or Kelly or the band, yes we should be raising concerns, we should be highlighting problems, but we should be doing it in the right way. The thread with Kelly became a clusterfuck of discontent when it could have been a huge opportunity to communicate. It turned into Sean Hannity when it could have been Fareed Zakaria. We all lost an opportunity to open up a new line of communication.
I stopped listening to AET when it started to become a bitchfest of attacking Tim or whoever else was on. Sure, they addressed issues, but it often went over the top with rudeness. I stopped reading and posting on this forum when it just became a bitchfest - as did many other people. I have only recently returned. I love this place and this community. It cost me about a dollar a week to be an international member. That is incredible value - even it I were only to have the opportunity to communicate on this forum, $1 a week f=for access to a moderated, spam free forum is value in itself.
Lets aspire to a better standard and hold ourselves to it. We do not need to become polarised into two groups 'the haters' v 'the sheep'. We need to embrace all views with respect, debate with respect, agree to disagree and work together towards a better future.
One man one goal Har! one mission.
One heart one soul just one solution
One flash of light yeah one god one vision
One flesh one bone
One true religion
One voice one hope
One real decision
Wowowowow gimme one vision
Eh!
No wrong no right
I'm gonna tell you there's no black and no white
No blood no stain
All we need is one world wide vision
One flesh one bone
One true religion
One race one hope
One real decision
Wowowowow oh yeah oh yeah oh yeah!
I had a dream
When I was young
A dream of sweet illusion
A glimpse of hope and unity
And visions of one sweet union
But a cold wind blows
And a dark rain falls
And in my heart it shows
Look what they've done to my dreeeeaaams...Ow!
One vision
So give me your hands
Give me your hearts
I'm ready
There's only one direction
One world one nation
Yeah one vision
No hate no fight
Just exultation
All through the night
It's a celebration
Wowowowow yeah
One one one one...
One vision...
(hey!)
One flesh one bone
One true religion
One voice one hope
One real decision
Gimme one light, yeah
Gimme one hope, hey
Just gimme, ah
One man one man
One bar one night
One day hey hey
Just gimme gimme gimme gimme
Fried chicken
Comments
You keep referring to me as part of some club or something, like we have a secret password for the "haters" club and we all plan together how to hijack a thread. Again, I didn't even post in the thread in question, so you lumping me in with the anonymous you from said thread seems silly.
Thinking negatively about the band's business practices does not mean that I don't enjoy their shows. It means I'm a rational person who is able to separate being great at playing music from being absolutely clueless in business. I live in NYC, so the fan club is the best way for me to attempt to get tickets. I see 5-6 shows per tour, and due to my location, they're usually at venues that have been corrupted by broker influence and have public onsales that are rigged. I'm grateful for the service the Ten Club provides, but at the same time it's appalling how it can still be so flawed, and they can still be so stubborn about using the methods that have proven to work for countless other bands of similar stature. If Phish, DMB, Foo Fighters, and even MMJ can run seamless onsales through Artist Arena, Music Today, or even Ticketmaster... why can't Pearl Jam? Why can Kelly come into a thread and claim to be at wit's end on how to fix this when there are perfectly acceptable solutions out there that are not exactly secret?
Your closing comment of "ya know what, strike that...I'm not interested enough to hear your reasons." is exactly the kind of condescending attitude that has made this schism so wide on this board. You're not interested in hearing well thought out responses that don't agree with you, so no matter what else you said in the previous three paragraphs; it's completely negated by the showing of your true colors in conclusion. In trying to dismiss me, you've only served to prove the exact point I made to begin with. Thanks for that, I suppose.
I mirror you're sentiments 100%. It was a big move for KC to address the issues the best he could at this point, which is all I had hoped the 10C would do during all this. I hate the negativity (which is why I stayed away from The Porch lately), and it sucks to know that a lot of people are still mad and dissapointed (clearly with reason... I'm not disputing that), but there are good ways and bad ways to go about it. I hope that it's finally time to move on from all this!!
Give yourself a "High 5"
sawyer, don't you have some lesson plan to do on trench warfare?
You left Crowdsurge off the list of a company that has run high demand sales. The band wasn't being stubborn, they went with something new this time after Alpine. It seems like the people complaining aren't aware of this and think the ticket sale was internal. The band/10c looked into how to do it differently and made a choice to go with Crowdsurge. A lot of people think it's the 10c's fault that the sale went to crap. It is the fault of the 10c and band that they went with Crowdsurge, but I'm sure it looked like a good choice and that the ticket sales would go well with them at the time.
There's a significant # of people in here that will only be satisfied if they hear immediate apologies from each band member, that the 10c club admit they can't run a business, that they announce they are revamping everything, that the band doesn't really care about the fans and only wants money, and that everyone in the 10c club management resign in shame. I could add that a smaller group of fans will only be happy with annual shows 30 miles from their hometown and hand delivered tickets.
The Kelly Curtis thread had some good and reasonable questions, and I thought the humor in some posts was appropriate given the tension. There was a number of cyclical responses where people wanted to know what happened with the sale, but the only response was "we don't know what happened". "but what happened", "we don't know...." He said the servers were running fine, but people want info that they don't have.
On a somewhat side note, I think it's overblown when people say you can't criticize the band on here. I see a lot threads that start with "I know I'm going to get flamed, but....." and then they don't get flamed and even have a lot of people agree with him/her.
The op is about you, how about responding to it. Well, I guess you did when you said you agree.
And as well, now that the ticket sales are over, Im sure most fans got tickets to one or a couple of shows. Maybe not standing, maybe up in the nose bleeds, but this is not magic, there are thousands of us crazy fans competing for the same small amount of tickets, everyone wont get what they want.
So please 10C, get better at communicating with the members, but at the same time, big thanks for all your work, Im very thankful for everything you do for me as a fan, and Im very thankful for the fact that I get to see my favorite band tour year after year.
Merry Christmas everyone
2000 Roskilde, 2006 Barcelona, 2007 London, Copenhagen, 2008 New York 1, New York 2, 2009 Berlin, 2010 Dublin, Belfast, 2012 Amsterdam 1, Stockholm, Oslo, Copenhagen, 2013 Brooklyn 1, Brooklyn 2, Philly 2, 2014 Milan, Trieste, Berlin, Stockholm, Milton Keynes
EV
2012 Manchester, London 1, London 2
Crowdsurge handled Paul McCartney, and primarily works with smaller artists who do not have fan clubs, etc. Paul McCartney was doing a 4 show tour, in stadiums, and you really can't compare demand on the two. The fanbase for McCartney is mainly older, less internet friendly people, and the face value on the tickets is already so high that there is not the same secondary market for premium seats that there is with a band like Pearl Jam, plus, the stadiums dilute the pool even further because there are more tickets. Using their success with Sir Paul as a baseline indicator for their ability to handle PJ was foolhardy.
Again, the Ten Club ticket system is a gift, and we as fans are lucky to have it. However, that doesn't mean that their complete inability to figure out how to make this work is forgivable. The Ten Club is a multimillion dollar business, not a charity. We give them constant free passes, and it almost seems like some people here are under the impression that this is being done pro bono, and not at massive profit margins - which is flat out incorrect. If they were simply willing to lower their margins and invest more money into doing things the right way, it would only benefit them in the long term.
You concluding that high demand was the problem, but I don't know if that's the case and that hasn't been stated. It's also not a "complete inability to figure out how to make this work". There's definitely been problems, but you also have to define a well done ticket sale. Some wont say it went well unless every single 10c member gets good seats. I've always got good seats. I got Alpine seats in about 45 min total, and Ed solo seats in 4 minutes. So if I use that as a way to measure it, then there aren't any problems with the system.
I don't see constant free passes. I see the 10c club get reamed in here almost daily.
Just the opposite, actually. I generally defend the Ten Club because I feel that I get value for the money I spend and don't want to see radical changes to the system. It's not to curry favor because (unlike a growing number around here) I'm under no illusion that there is any personal relationship between me and the band or their fan club. They are artists/producers and I am a consumer. If you want to hear fantastic music, the shop's open for business. If you want to feel loved, spend more time with your family and friends. Don't expect to be owed something by someone you've never met. If you're not getting your money's worth, spend it somewhere else and shuffle off with some dignity.
High demand is a much more likely source of the problem than vague "sabotage." Even if they mean bots were slamming their system (which isn't sabotage, fwiw) that is highly unlikely, especially since the presale has a two ticket limit, and once the bot gets through once, the connection would be blocked from buying more... and it would also require entering additional information that the programs in question do not usually have to deal with. I'm sure it's possible, but it's highly unlikely.
Well done ticket sales happen in fan clubs all the time. I used MMJ's roll call and got tickets for MSG in 30 seconds. Now, they're not a band of PJ's stature, but I've heard nothing but great things about their Roll Call onsales. I've never heard of a single major issue like PJ has had in 13 years of DMB running the Warehouse through Music Today, and I used that system successfully for many years. Phish's Ticket By Mail system doesn't even require a membership, and is open to the general public, and they have never had the system failures PJ has had. Again, that includes dealing with the massive demand of a run like Phish's NYE runs at MSG. It's not the exact same thing, but I'm sure they could figure something out for PJ's fan club.
You're playing a poor straw man with your personal experiences buying 2 shows. I spent 9 hours on the day Alpine went on sale, and when I was able to get tickets, the Ten Club was telling people that the site was down entirely. So clearly they were either misinforming us, or they simply didn't know. Neither is a good thing. We're not talking about small issues here - we're talking about the primary feature of Ten Club membership being bungled repeatedly. It's still a great service, I can't disagree there, but, again, for the amount of money the Ten Club is making, you would think they'd have figured out how to have a smooth onsale for a high demand show in the 5 years of issues we've had. To hear Kelly say that they've given serious consideration to going back to the index card method isn't funny, it's ridiculous... It's 2011 for crying out loud!
I'm currently debating whether to renew or not and I would for the package I'm given, despite this epic failure with ticketing. The vinyl, deep, t-shirt are a decent enough package. However, the thing that I'm really not sure about it whether it is fun any more. I've been about just a few years but the boards seemed a lot lighter and with much less of a sense of disgruntled entitlement just a couple of years ago. I love the band but I'm not sure how much of a good time this forum is nowadays. Every time I log on I just see endless threads complaining and critiqueing.
I guess people are fully entitled to their moans and I personally wanted some clarification about wristbands just yesterday but I don't think it should all be negative. And it is going that way.
My one real gripe would be posters who bang on about limited edition goods and backpacks and so on, as someone mentioned before. Do you really need all that stuff? Really? Sure there might be demand but isn't the point sometimes to jsut have limited edition stuff so that those who are lucky enough to get it feel the extra value of it. Otherwise the band might as well just burn a few thousand reenk roinks and knock up some blue vs vinyls so we can all have them.
I apologize for lumping you in by using the phrase "you guys" mamasan80. You are right, I didn't have a problem with anything you said and you weren't a part of what irritated me and so many others yesterday so I'm sorry. What I was trying to poorly articulate by using the phrase "you guys" was those of you who seem to be so constantly upset and never pleased with anything, You're also right, the last comment was unnecessary especially when directed at you because you weren't part of the initial problem.
I'll say it for the 900th time though...I don't have a problem with people criticizing the band, it's business practices, etc. I don't have a problem with those that disagree with me in any way. What I have a problem with is arrogantly and immaturely bickering and complaining about things at inappropriate times and in inappropriate ways. If that makes me a "sheep" or a "woo boy" (whatever the hell that means) than so be it.
I do agree with you there. There is a difference between mature, thoughtful debate and pointless bickering and insults, and that goes for both sides of this argument. I'm sure there was probably more of the latter than the former in the thread in question.
Randall's Island 96 and haven't stopped since...
Phish also charges far less for tickets ($60 for seats), plays longer shows, and puts on a light show that costs significantly more than PJ's rig. Yet somehow they are able to do it right without charging their fans a) $40 a year for a fan club and b) $90 or more per ticket. Once you see their business model, your view of the frequently lauded "value" of the Ten Club changes.
As for the complaining. To be honest I see a lot of the same attitudes on other band forums I visit. You can't please everybody, and given a forum to do it in, those that aren't pleased are going to let it be known. I hang out at the Stones site, and people "bitch" every day. We just got a 40 year old bootleg that nobody thought would ever be released officially, but it came in digital form, and it was an amazing surprise, but there are those that are complaining that there was no physical release, or complaining that Keith's guitar is on the left channel and Taylor's on the right (where it is usually the opposite), and a laundry list of other things ranging from legitimate to (in my opinion) downright silly. In the mind of many of us it is the coolest thing ever, but to others it just isn't good enough. Complaining/bitching is not unique to this community. What is unique (from what I've seen) is the finger pointing, hatred, and preaching to people about how they SHOULD behave that I've seen around here. Even with all those complaints over there (and that's just an example from 1 release) people aren't making it their business to tell those people their opinions are bullshit, and I don't see any arguing or name calling. Just as many complaints, but without the same response.
Whenever something happens around here and there are complaints, it seems to me like the most venemous and hateful comments come from the people responding to the complaints. It seems like whatever "negativity" pops its head out, it is met with 10X as much negativity in return, with multiple threads of people "telling it like it is" that range from preachy (although with some good points often being made) to downright hateful. I was just thinking back to the PJ20 festival and a handful of people had said they weren't too happy with the show (I would have loved to be there, but hey, if they weren't happy they weren't happy) and the sheer amount of hatred towards those people and the crazy amount of threads being started saying those people weren't real fans, calling for people giving negative reviews to be booted from the club, and whatever else was insane. Kat was earning her paycheck and them some just by shutting down all the threads "complaining about the complainers". There were more people jumping all over their asses than there were people who had something negative to say in the first place. And when the film came out, a few people posted reviews that weren't thrilled with it, and they got absolutely railed on with some of the most hateful comments I've seen, all because of a movie.
Negativity is negativity, be it aimed at the band/10C, or aimed at members taking pot shots at the band/10C. Can anybody here honestly say they've never complained? Have we always taken everything life gives us as a gift and always seen the silver lining? I seriously doubt it. Calling people names and talking shit to them only further divides a community that is already pretty divided. Why it is so divided I have no clue, I guess we're just a very opinionated bunch. But threads like this aren't any more constructive than the ones complaining about the band, if anything they're worse for the community because it's calling out other people who participate in the community, who we talk to on a day to day basis, as opposed to the powers that be or people that aren't even on the boards. I don't think Kelly Curtis, the Mods, or the band read the message board with a stream of tears rolling down their face. A band like Pearl Jam and their management do not reach the heights they have without wading through criticism and dealing with unsavory people.
The fact that I'm not being very positive, I'm complaining, and that this long winded post is a bit preachy is not lost on me. And I guess I'm just as guilty as anybody else in feeling the urge to get something off my chest and being somewhat scathing about it. But this shit has been bubbling in my pea-sized brain through all the little mini-dramas taking place around here. The most embarrassing thing, in my opinion, should be the way we treat each other around here. And I say that as somebody who knows I can be a real douchebag sometimes.
That's exactly my point. For the longest time all I ever knew was the 10C, and I thought it was the best thing sinced slice bread. But once I saw how a band like Phish operates, it really made me think twice about 10C. So I feel like a lot of the anger and negativity towards them over the past few days were justified.
Randall's Island 96 and haven't stopped since...
Could it be that Phish offers more to make up for the dreadful music they put out?
For the record, I'm just kidding! No need to turn this into a "To Phish or Not to Phish" thread.
Yeah man please don't go there
Also Phish plays the South
Randall's Island 96 and haven't stopped since...
Where is Phish popular ? I don't even know anyone that knows of Phish nor had I heard of them before this board
Don't love or hate Phish. Really have never listened to them, but just want to give props to my home town here. If you love Italian food GO THERE NOW!...sorry for derailing.
To put their popularity in perspective, their 2010 stop at Alpine Valley for 2 shows (as part of their regular tour) sold more tickets than PJ20.
Absolutely spot-on. Bravo!
<a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/jmgphotos/4731512142/" title="PJ Banner2 by Mister J Photography, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1135/4731512142_258f2d6ab4_b.jpg" width="630" height="112" alt="PJ Banner2" /></a>
Satans remarks deleted for space... read his original post above.
You make some brilliant points and on the face of it, I agree with everything you said - however...
I feel was as humans - are really coming unstuck. The propagation of hatred, abuse and rudeness - probably best described as a general loss of grace and respect - in our society is shattering me - "I weep for the future". To accept this and justify it as 'that's just how it is', while most likely true, is sad in that we need to stand up and not accept this status quo and rally against it. I believe this was the point behind Jon Stewart and Stephen Cobert's rally to restor sanity/and/or fear
I'll use all US based examples seeing as I have visited the country many times and watch a lot of US media, but this is not just an American thing - althought it could be argued the genesis of this vitriol is in the American media and political systems where the saturation of mass media and the race for ratings have bought about more sensationalist and conflict driven programming - people like Rupert Murdoch and Rodger Allies have a lot to answer for. Whether it is an overly aggressive tirade on an anonymous forum; a talking head on a partisan news channel (Sean Hannity et al on the right or Chris Matthews et al on the left) abusing their guest; whether it is a fight on Jerry Springer or the latest 'reality' tv housewives bullshit; or a politician demonising their opponents for political gain from their closed minded base; all the way through to countries going to war over questionable reasons; we are really losing something here - and I believe it is causing more harm to our society than people accept. This conflict driven attitude is flowing into many other aspects of our lives and destroying us from within.
By dehumanising or marginalising those who are different breeds a lack of empathy and respect which in turn changes our core values. By manufacturing false controversy and conflict and aiming anger at our brothers we are becoming a species of haters when we know better. This acceptance of conflict and marginalisation in turn turns us against certain groups in our community - normally without justification. I believe you can never really oppress people until you give them someone to hate - someone to use as the scapegoat for their anger and this is how Fox News peddle their bullshit. This quest for ratings and in turn power and money may be totally legal, but it is totally wrong.
We all have different opinions and different ways we chose to live our lives. I am not Christian, Muslim, Hindu or any other religion - I am atheist, however, I accept people's right to believe what they want - so long as they do not impose their views on others. But the more I analyse the world, the more I believe that most Christians are not Christian (this is brilliant by Bill Maher http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAvDtPz33w0 ). I believe what Bill said to be true of most other religions too. By his analysis, when I analyse my own values, I am more Christian than many who hold themselves up as Christian leaders - how could it come to this? It seems many people love to use their views to demonise others but then fail to see how far away they have moved from the core values of their own beliefs.
This conflict driven rhetoric will destroy our civilisation as people adopt unretractable positions and hold them against all logic and against the teachings and core values of our communities and or religions. We have Tea Party members refusing to negotiate and blocking needed change, Republican candidates trying to prove who is the most conservative and turning their backs on more realistic positions, Obama employing the same wall street criminals who created the mess we're all in, schools teaching to tests in order to jump through hoops because of the media spin in effect narrowing and destroying academic endeavour. We are paying a very high price.
The above now seems so far removed from the point we're discussing "Message Forum Etiquette", but I believe it sets the premise for my thesis. We as members of this forum need to aspire to a better standard of behaviour, to live and let live, to understand and accept difference, to show respect. We need to reject the conflict driven rhetoric being spewed by those who do not aim to educate us but to manipulate us - not mirror it in our dealings with each other. We should not be attacking Tim or Kat or Kelly or the band, yes we should be raising concerns, we should be highlighting problems, but we should be doing it in the right way. The thread with Kelly became a clusterfuck of discontent when it could have been a huge opportunity to communicate. It turned into Sean Hannity when it could have been Fareed Zakaria. We all lost an opportunity to open up a new line of communication.
I stopped listening to AET when it started to become a bitchfest of attacking Tim or whoever else was on. Sure, they addressed issues, but it often went over the top with rudeness. I stopped reading and posting on this forum when it just became a bitchfest - as did many other people. I have only recently returned. I love this place and this community. It cost me about a dollar a week to be an international member. That is incredible value - even it I were only to have the opportunity to communicate on this forum, $1 a week f=for access to a moderated, spam free forum is value in itself.
Lets aspire to a better standard and hold ourselves to it. We do not need to become polarised into two groups 'the haters' v 'the sheep'. We need to embrace all views with respect, debate with respect, agree to disagree and work together towards a better future.
Thank you for reading I hoe this all made sense.
One Vision by Queen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJvNvBYTsGw
(God works in mysterious ways)
(I had a dream..)
One man one goal Har! one mission.
One heart one soul just one solution
One flash of light yeah one god one vision
One flesh one bone
One true religion
One voice one hope
One real decision
Wowowowow gimme one vision
Eh!
No wrong no right
I'm gonna tell you there's no black and no white
No blood no stain
All we need is one world wide vision
One flesh one bone
One true religion
One race one hope
One real decision
Wowowowow oh yeah oh yeah oh yeah!
I had a dream
When I was young
A dream of sweet illusion
A glimpse of hope and unity
And visions of one sweet union
But a cold wind blows
And a dark rain falls
And in my heart it shows
Look what they've done to my dreeeeaaams...Ow!
One vision
So give me your hands
Give me your hearts
I'm ready
There's only one direction
One world one nation
Yeah one vision
No hate no fight
Just exultation
All through the night
It's a celebration
Wowowowow yeah
One one one one...
One vision...
(hey!)
One flesh one bone
One true religion
One voice one hope
One real decision
Gimme one light, yeah
Gimme one hope, hey
Just gimme, ah
One man one man
One bar one night
One day hey hey
Just gimme gimme gimme gimme
Fried chicken
Vision...vision...
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Happy to be a sheep than a hater.
I'll echo these sentiments.