Penn State Scandal

Cliffy6745

Here we go again....

SHUT IT DOWN!!!!!!

EdsonNascimento

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Here we go again....

SHUT IT DOWN!!!!!!

If you are being sarcastic about the school - I agree with you. My neice and nephew have participated and been on the board of running the student dance-a-thon that is the largest student based fund raiser in the country. So, I know the good the school and its students do. And the school should most definitely continue.


However, if you are talking about football - you are missing the point. And if it were shut down for a year to ensure as best a clensing as possible - the school would most definitiely continue. That's the point you're missing. Football is nothing in the scheme of things. And greater punishments have been handed out for lesser transgressions.

Hell, a sitting President resigned for a far more benign cover up.

JK_Livin

I didn't trash the current players. I made a little joke and if it offended you then I apologize.

About the NCAA stepping in, will Joe Pa's knowledge of this situation have an effect on their ruling.

Cliffy6745

EdsonNascimento wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Here we go again....

SHUT IT DOWN!!!!!!

If you are being sarcastic about the school - I agree with you. My neice and nephew have participated and been on the board of running the student dance-a-thon that is the largest student based fund raiser in the country. So, I know the good the school and its students do. And the school should most definitely continue.


However, if you are talking about football - you are missing the point. And if it were shut down for a year to ensure as best a clensing as possible - the school would most definitiely continue. That's the point you're missing. Football is nothing in the scheme of things. And greater punishments have been handed out for lesser transgressions.

Hell, a sitting President resigned for a far more benign cover up.

A running joke in the thread, there were others that though the school should be closed and no one should hire a penn state grad again. True story. It was amusing.

THON is obviously a great event that has raised millions.

You and I will never see eye to eye on the football program. We haven't since it started. I don't think punishing the current kids and every other student athlete for that matter is the way to go. I don't agree with how the Paterno situation was handled but I think the people responsible for covering it up need to be punished and held accountable and I would also like to see the current board gone, they have done nothing but make horrible decision after horrible decision. I don't think punishing people that are not involved is the right thing to do. I get that the Penn State football image is what they were trying to protect, but that has obviously been shattered and lessons have obviously been learned. Hurting other student athletes by suspending the program will make no more of an impact on a adminstrators decision making process moving forward than what has already happened.

Cliffy6745

JK_Livin wrote:

I didn't trash the current players. I made a little joke and if it offended you then I apologize.

About the NCAA stepping in, will Joe Pa's knowledge of this situation have an effect on their ruling.

Nevermind, you didn't offend me. I just didn't get what your point was.

I can't see it. He didn't do enough but he did what was required.

Monster Rain

The school is not an entity with a brain that makes decisions. The people running the school made bad decisions and are being punished for it by losing their jobs and facing criminal charges. "The program" didn't do anything wrong, Paterno, Curley, etc. did. The people who protected the program at the expense of children are no longer at the school. If you know of someone in charge at the school who helped cover up this mess and is still running things there, please name him/her. To my knowledge, the board of trustees has dealt with the guilty parties there to the extent that they legally can. The school will be held accountable to the victims shortly when lawsuits are filed and either decided in court or settled out of court.Anything beyond that and the punishments already handed down to those who knew about Sandusky would be nothing more than a way for the rest of us to feel better and has nothing to do with the victims, Sandusky, or the school officials who ignored the situation.

polaris_x wrote:

what good? ... it would finally show that penn state is culpable and accountable ... this wasn't the work of a few people ... this was penn state protecting penn state ... again - i feel bad for these athletes but at the end of the day ... it's football ... a game ... most of these kids are not going to play in the NFL ... the school was protecting the football program because the program is a huge money making venture ... which is why they need to suspend it for some time ...

is the opportunity for these kids to play 12 or whatever games of football so important that it supersedes accountability?

EdsonNascimento

Cliffy6745 wrote:

[A running joke in the thread, there were others that though the school should be closed and no one should hire a penn state grad again. True story. It was amusing.

THON is obviously a great event that has raised millions.

You and I will never see eye to eye on the football program. We haven't since it started. I don't think punishing the current kids and every other student athlete for that matter is the way to go. I don't agree with how the Paterno situation was handled but I think the people responsible for covering it up need to be punished and held accountable and I would also like to see the current board gone, they have done nothing but make horrible decision after horrible decision. I don't think punishing people that are not involved is the right thing to do. I get that the Penn State football image is what they were trying to protect, but that has obviously been shattered and lessons have obviously been learned. Hurting other student athletes by suspending the program will make no more of an impact on a adminstrators decision making process moving forward than what has already happened.

I got it. It's old. Just like the comparison to the church.

I don't see how it's punishing the athletes any more than the Ohio State players who are stuck without a postseason this year. They couldn't transfer without a year delay. What about the kids that were going to SMU when it got the death penalty? I do agree that it should be just football.

So, yes, there is collateral damage to those that unknowingly selected to play for an uncaring person. That's life. We all misjudge people. Good lesson for the kids. But, it's not like they couldn't still play college football next year on this idea. And, its no different than what goes on at numerous schools every year in a variety of severity. So, your argument is a specious one.

This isn't a punishment to learn a lesson for those involved in this incident (though hopefully, it is to future incidents which seems almost silly since who needs that lesson in morality? Only people like Joe Paterno). It's a punishment to be punitive to the institution that so clearly had no control.

Monster Rain

The difference is that the players at Ohio State still get to play next year and some of the players were the ones breaking the rules. Losing the chance at a bowl game isn't the same as not being able to play at all. SMU is different because the players on the team were involved in the rule-breaking. The players were accepting cash from the school, some of them receiving up to $750/month which was a decent amount of money in the early-'80s, especially for a college student. The whole team was being paid and the star recruits were being paid thousands of dollars just to choose SMU over other schools. There were not innocent players on the SMU team.

EdsonNascimento wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

[A running joke in the thread, there were others that though the school should be closed and no one should hire a penn state grad again. True story. It was amusing.

THON is obviously a great event that has raised millions.

You and I will never see eye to eye on the football program. We haven't since it started. I don't think punishing the current kids and every other student athlete for that matter is the way to go. I don't agree with how the Paterno situation was handled but I think the people responsible for covering it up need to be punished and held accountable and I would also like to see the current board gone, they have done nothing but make horrible decision after horrible decision. I don't think punishing people that are not involved is the right thing to do. I get that the Penn State football image is what they were trying to protect, but that has obviously been shattered and lessons have obviously been learned. Hurting other student athletes by suspending the program will make no more of an impact on a adminstrators decision making process moving forward than what has already happened.

I got it. It's old. Just like the comparison to the church.

I don't see how it's punishing the athletes any more than the Ohio State players who are stuck without a postseason this year. They couldn't transfer without a year delay. What about the kids that were going to SMU when it got the death penalty? I do agree that it should be just football.

So, yes, there is collateral damage to those that unknowingly selected to play for an uncaring person. That's life. We all misjudge people. Good lesson for the kids. But, it's not like they couldn't still play college football next year on this idea. And, its no different than what goes on at numerous schools every year in a variety of severity. So, your argument is a specious one.

This isn't a punishment to learn a lesson for those involved in this incident (though hopefully, it is to future incidents which seems almost silly since who needs that lesson in morality? Only people like Joe Paterno). It's a punishment to be punitive to the institution that so clearly had no control.

EdsonNascimento

Monster Rain wrote:

The difference is that the players at Ohio State still get to play next year and some of the players were the ones breaking the rules. Losing the chance at a bowl game isn't the same as not being able to play at all. SMU is different because the players on the team were involved in the rule-breaking. The players were accepting cash from the school, some of them receiving up to $750/month which was a decent amount of money in the early-'80s, especially for a college student. The whole team was being paid and the star recruits were being paid thousands of dollars just to choose SMU over other schools. There were not innocent players on the SMU team.

You're right. Not 100% the same. But, not ALL the players were involved in Ohio State. So, why were they punished at all? The point is in these instances, its not the players that are the intended target. It's the school. So, in that, this would be no different. And I'm suggesting allowing them to transfer without the 1 year wait that is now required. So, they would get to play. And in a much better situation then they are facing next year. One could argue, they are being punished by being forced to stay and play under that cloud with the blue chippers going elsewhere, or transfering and having to wait a year.

And, soon they will be getting stipends (already being discussed - it's going to happen). So, SMU was just ahead of its time.

The Juggler

Cliffy6745 wrote:

The Juggler wrote:

well i don't think you or i or anyone here knows what the ncaa's exact parameters are for reporting such things. i'd think a former coach who still has access to their facilities, still attends practices, still attends games, travels with the team to bowl games, goes to team functions etc etc etc that's being investigated for such heinus crimes is something you'd want to inform them of just to be safe.

I get what you are saying, but it's not like you have to report anyone with a criminal record or investigation being around a college team. Granted, his crimes are sickening, but I can't see how the NCAA is involved.

I can't see NCAA sanctions coming down at all. From a legal perspective, this is all outside the football program. The athletic department who was involved and the school in general are in some trouble, obviously, but I can't see it getting the football program anymore than it has.

i can. they're already looking into issues related to institutional control and ethical conduct stemming from this. you can bet that the most minor violation they find will come with some hefty ramifications. i kind of agreed with you, to an extent, until this part of the story came to light.

Cliffy6745

The Juggler wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

The Juggler wrote:

well i don't think you or i or anyone here knows what the ncaa's exact parameters are for reporting such things. i'd think a former coach who still has access to their facilities, still attends practices, still attends games, travels with the team to bowl games, goes to team functions etc etc etc that's being investigated for such heinus crimes is something you'd want to inform them of just to be safe.

I get what you are saying, but it's not like you have to report anyone with a criminal record or investigation being around a college team. Granted, his crimes are sickening, but I can't see how the NCAA is involved.

I can't see NCAA sanctions coming down at all. From a legal perspective, this is all outside the football program. The athletic department who was involved and the school in general are in some trouble, obviously, but I can't see it getting the football program anymore than it has.

i can. they're already looking into issues related to institutional control and ethical conduct stemming from this. you can bet that the most minor violation they find will come with some hefty ramifications. i kind of agreed with you, to an extent, until this part of the story came to light.

I am pretty certain raping a kid in the showers and having an office is a bigger deal to the NCAA than him than being at a game. The NCAA is going to have to punish the entire athletic department, not just the football team and I can't see that happening. What you are talking about is not a Joe Paterno issue, it's a Tim Curley/Spanier issue.

Cliffy6745

EdsonNascimento wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

[A running joke in the thread, there were others that though the school should be closed and no one should hire a penn state grad again. True story. It was amusing.

THON is obviously a great event that has raised millions.

You and I will never see eye to eye on the football program. We haven't since it started. I don't think punishing the current kids and every other student athlete for that matter is the way to go. I don't agree with how the Paterno situation was handled but I think the people responsible for covering it up need to be punished and held accountable and I would also like to see the current board gone, they have done nothing but make horrible decision after horrible decision. I don't think punishing people that are not involved is the right thing to do. I get that the Penn State football image is what they were trying to protect, but that has obviously been shattered and lessons have obviously been learned. Hurting other student athletes by suspending the program will make no more of an impact on a adminstrators decision making process moving forward than what has already happened.

I got it. It's old. Just like the comparison to the church.

I don't see how it's punishing the athletes any more than the Ohio State players who are stuck without a postseason this year. They couldn't transfer without a year delay. What about the kids that were going to SMU when it got the death penalty? I do agree that it should be just football.

So, yes, there is collateral damage to those that unknowingly selected to play for an uncaring person. That's life. We all misjudge people. Good lesson for the kids. But, it's not like they couldn't still play college football next year on this idea. And, its no different than what goes on at numerous schools every year in a variety of severity. So, your argument is a specious one.

This isn't a punishment to learn a lesson for those involved in this incident (though hopefully, it is to future incidents which seems almost silly since who needs that lesson in morality? Only people like Joe Paterno). It's a punishment to be punitive to the institution that so clearly had no control.

Monster Rain hit the nail on the head and it's not going to happen so whatever. I just don't get how you are going to punish the football team for largely the acts of Spanier, Schultz and Curley. And the lack of a football season would have an impact on every other student-athlete at the school.

EdsonNascimento

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Monster Rain hit the nail on the head and it's not going to happen so whatever. I just don't get how you are going to punish the football team for largely the acts of Spanier, Schultz and Curley. And the lack of a football season would have an impact on every other student-athlete at the school.

I think you forgot the most important, powerful person involved - Joe Paterno. He is a scoundrel and the worst of humankind. It is one thing to do the crimes, it's quite another to knowingly allow it to continue. He could have stopped it and now a larger web of destruction has been created, and he's as culpable as Sandusky after the first report.

Yes, Spanier, et. al. knew about the investigation sooner than they let on. But, that's all irrelevant if the moment the most powerful man in Pennsylvania says - my football legacy and program be damned!! I am putting a stop to this!

So, that's how I see the football program being sanctioned. The coverup happened for the very reason of protecting the program, and it is clear Joe Paterno held the power and the knowledge and could have stopped it on numerous occassions. His power is borne out of the football program. That's where the punishment should lie.. Everything else is just window dressing.

Quite frankly, I'm a UCONN alum, and I'd be embarassed if something similar came out about Calhoun who built that school, and is equally powerful. And, I would dump all my Basketball stuff and be the first in line to kill the program (men's basketball) that built the school. It would not be more important than the integrity of the institution.

Cliffy6745

EdsonNascimento wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

Monster Rain hit the nail on the head and it's not going to happen so whatever. I just don't get how you are going to punish the football team for largely the acts of Spanier, Schultz and Curley. And the lack of a football season would have an impact on every other student-athlete at the school.

I think you forgot the most important, powerful person involved - Joe Paterno. He is a scoundrel and the worst of humankind. It is one thing to do the crimes, it's quite another to knowingly allow it to continue. He could have stopped it and now a larger web of destruction has been created, and he's as culpable as Sandusky after the first report.

Yes, Spanier, et. al. knew about the investigation sooner than they let on. But, that's all irrelevant if the moment the most powerful man in Pennsylvania says - my football legacy and program be damned!! I am putting a stop to this!

So, that's how I see the football program being sanctioned. The coverup happened for the very reason of protecting the program, and it is clear Joe Paterno held the power and the knowledge and could have stopped it on numerous occassions. His power is borne out of the football program. That's where the punishment should lie.. Everything else is just window dressing.

Quite frankly, I'm a UCONN alum, and I'd be embarassed if something similar came out about Calhoun who built that school, and is equally powerful. And, I would dump all my Basketball stuff and be the first in line to kill the program (men's basketball) that built the school. It would not be more important than the integrity of the institution.

There are probably 10 people that could have stopped it at any time. Spanier knew about the incident 2 fucking days after Paterno knew about it, he didn't learn about the investigation later on. You know nothing about what happened besides the grand jury report. And as Paternos testimony said, he took it to his boss, who was responsible for Sandusky and expected him to do his job. He absolutely should have called the cops but there were people who are responsible for, you know, managing the athletic department and who is part of it that covered it up and did less. I'm done arguing this same point 2 months later.

How come I don't hear the same outrage coming from you about ESPN and the Syracuse Post Standard? They knew about the Bernie Fine allegations for 7 years and told no one, not a soul. Being a UConn guy, you should be all over that one.

EdsonNascimento

Cliffy6745 wrote:

There are probably 10 people that could have stopped it at any time. Spanier knew about the incident 2 fucking days after Paterno knew about it, he didn't learn about the investigation later on. You know nothing about what happened besides the grand jury report. And as Paternos testimony said, he took it to his boss, who was responsible for Sandusky and expected him to do his job. He absolutely should have called the cops but there were people who are responsible for, you know, managing the athletic department and who is part of it that covered it up and did less. I'm done arguing this same point 2 months later.

How come I don't hear the same outrage coming from you about ESPN and the Syracuse Post Standard? They knew about the Bernie Fine allegations for 7 years and told no one, not a soul. Being a UConn guy, you should be all over that one.

Ha, ha. That is funny. Paterno apologist. He had no boss (in the truest sense of the word). They couldn't even get him to retire when he needed to go 10 years ago. And, now you're expecting his subordinates (Spanier, et. al) to go against his wishes?

A little different situation. It appears that Boeheim did not have the information that Paterno had. Plus, there's still something fishy about that one. He was molested until he was 25? And the wife had an affair with him? Whatever. Maybe, he's telling the truth, but it's a lot less clear than what Paterno continued.

Cliffy6745

EdsonNascimento wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

There are probably 10 people that could have stopped it at any time. Spanier knew about the incident 2 fucking days after Paterno knew about it, he didn't learn about the investigation later on. You know nothing about what happened besides the grand jury report. And as Paternos testimony said, he took it to his boss, who was responsible for Sandusky and expected him to do his job. He absolutely should have called the cops but there were people who are responsible for, you know, managing the athletic department and who is part of it that covered it up and did less. I'm done arguing this same point 2 months later.

How come I don't hear the same outrage coming from you about ESPN and the Syracuse Post Standard? They knew about the Bernie Fine allegations for 7 years and told no one, not a soul. Being a UConn guy, you should be all over that one.

Ha, ha. That is funny. Paterno apologist. He had no boss (in the truest sense of the word). They couldn't even get him to retire when he needed to go 10 years ago. And, now you're expecting his subordinates (Spanier, et. al) to go against his wishes?

A little different situation. It appears that Boeheim did not have the information that Paterno had. Plus, there's still something fishy about that one. He was molested until he was 25? And the wife had an affair with him? Whatever. Maybe, he's telling the truth, but it's a lot less clear than what Paterno continued.

Alright dude, I'm done with you. I am interested to know what other of Paternos wishes you know about though. How about what he wanted for Christmas?

I asked about ESPN and the Post Standard, I didn't say anything about Boeheim. Nice try again. And him beign molested until he was 25 is a little less fishy with the last round of allegations.

The Juggler

Cliffy6745 wrote:

The Juggler wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

I get what you are saying, but it's not like you have to report anyone with a criminal record or investigation being around a college team. Granted, his crimes are sickening, but I can't see how the NCAA is involved.

I can't see NCAA sanctions coming down at all. From a legal perspective, this is all outside the football program. The athletic department who was involved and the school in general are in some trouble, obviously, but I can't see it getting the football program anymore than it has.

i can. they're already looking into issues related to institutional control and ethical conduct stemming from this. you can bet that the most minor violation they find will come with some hefty ramifications. i kind of agreed with you, to an extent, until this part of the story came to light.

I am pretty certain raping a kid in the showers and having an office is a bigger deal to the NCAA than him than being at a game. The NCAA is going to have to punish the entire athletic department, not just the football team and I can't see that happening. What you are talking about is not a Joe Paterno issue, it's a Tim Curley/Spanier issue.

what? i never mentioned joe paterno.

kinda confused by your response but you essentially proved my point which is the ncaa is looking for any possible violations they can find. whether it being him allowed to maintain an office, like you said, or them allowing him on campus to see a game after knowing about the investigation; i don't see how the football program gets out of this unscathed.

Cliffy6745

The Juggler wrote:

what? i never mentioned joe paterno.

kinda confused by your response but you essentially proved my point which is the ncaa is looking for any possible violations they can find. whether it being him allowed to maintain an office, like you said, or them allowing him on campus to see a game after knowing about the investigation; i don't see how the football program gets out of this unscathed.

But the point is, it's the adminstration that is largely at fault with allowing him to stick around campus. Agree with it or not, Paterno did what he was obligated to do. It's the people above him that didn't and they are associated with a lot more than the football program. So how do you punish the football program and not other the entire athletic department? I just can't see them bringing sanctions against all the other sports for this issue.

And everyone associated with the school says Sandusky being in the box at that game is complete bullshit, including Erickson.

EdsonNascimento

Cliffy6745 wrote:

And everyone associated with the school says Sandusky being in the box at that game is complete bullshit, including Erickson.

We'll just have to get the airmen to attest to their knowledge of the log books.... It'll be really strong testimony.

The Juggler

Cliffy6745 wrote:

The Juggler wrote:

what? i never mentioned joe paterno.

kinda confused by your response but you essentially proved my point which is the ncaa is looking for any possible violations they can find. whether it being him allowed to maintain an office, like you said, or them allowing him on campus to see a game after knowing about the investigation; i don't see how the football program gets out of this unscathed.

But the point is, it's the adminstration that is largely at fault with allowing him to stick around campus. Agree with it or not, Paterno did what he was obligated to do. It's the people above him that didn't and they are associated with a lot more than the football program. So how do you punish the football program and not other the entire athletic department? I just can't see them bringing sanctions against all the other sports for this issue.

And everyone associated with the school says Sandusky being in the box at that game is complete bullshit, including Erickson.

kinda see your point but he's the former football coach who was allowed an incredible amount of access to the football team and the football team's facilities for years. not some other athletic team. the football team.

i don't see them bringing sanctions against all the other sports programs either. i do see them trying to find a way to punish the football program, and only the football program...for reasons i assumed were obvious.

and this is coming from a psu fan.