Occupy Wall Street and police brutality

brianlux

inlet13 wrote:

.

Outside of this, I sincerely wonder what they are "protesting"? Do they even know?

See Kunstler, above. Yes, they know.

inlet13

brianlux wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

.

Outside of this, I sincerely wonder what they are "protesting"? Do they even know?

See Kunstler, above. Yes, they know.

So, according to you and that difficult to read drivel, they are protesting "costs" that they paid for?

Are they going to protest the cost of their pot next, or alcohol, or indie music? Are they trying to say that government should be paying for the student loans and medical bill costs? Are they getting at the idea of moral hazard or are they really trying to say the government should also bail them out? There's an enormous distinction, which gets to my point. They, and perhaps you, may not know it.



Is it they feel they should be entitled to wiping away their costs (student loans/medical bills) or are they protesting the government using Keynesian economics to try to stimulate the economy (via bailouts and stimulus plans)?

RFTC

the occupy movement appears to be taking shape and broadening across the country. i for one find this effort energizing but need to understand the message better (and plan to do so). hell, houston has 300+ attending its first rally this thursday.

go on their network of sites, it's advanced pretty fast.

pandora

The thing with the protests, one will find on both sides,
protestors and law enforcement, negative energy.

Let's do battle to get my point across, out of control, antagonist jerks,
putting it kindly. Those who want a fight.... filled with hate. Put that in a crowd
and there is a set up for disaster.

I for one won't be brutalized by either side, I will be no where near the protests.
There will be bloodshed, perhaps much worse, the laws and camps are readied to stifle
any real movement.

People must maintain, remain positive, have hope, be civil, hang onto their freedoms
VOTE
and above all else remember it's only money and not worth dying over.

If one of these young people had died during this protest,
whether caused by an over zealous protestor or law enforcement
how tragic that would be and unnecessary.

Save the fight, save it for the fight for freedom.... hopefully that is not coming,
but that is worth dying for, not the economy or money or the rich getting richer
none of that matters in the end. IMO

dignin

pandora wrote:

Save the fight, save it for the fight for freedom.... hopefully that is not coming,
but that is worth dying for, not the economy or money or the rich getting richer
none of that matters in the end. IMO

Why wait for this to happen? Why not stand up now? Before things get worse.....and in my opinion it will.

Jeanwah

inlet13 wrote:

I have no clue about the "police brutality"...

Clearly, you didn't watch the video in the OP...

pandora

dignin wrote:

pandora wrote:

Save the fight, save it for the fight for freedom.... hopefully that is not coming,
but that is worth dying for, not the economy or money or the rich getting richer
none of that matters in the end. IMO

Why wait for this to happen? Why not stand up now? Before things get worse.....and in my opinion it will.

I'm a mother I would not want my child dying over student loans.
As far as things getting worse, for me, that would be violence.
And I agree much worse it will get.

And again what are we standing up for??
The fact that there are no jobs for the grads?
The economy sucks and the billionaires get richer?

Sounds to me like a lot of little people will get hurt with nothing solved
nor changed.

Answers to the problems at hand is what we need and I don't think those are found
at a protest. IMO.
Protests are more like 'here is the problem I'm pissed do something about it'
at least that is how I see them.
Also kind of a charged powder keg right now, easy to lose sight of reason
in the midst of emotion.

neilybabes86

i was a good boy..just had my back in their faces...didn't even turn and look at them

it has become another tourist attraction...everyone else is just walking by w/out looking

btw...the whole block is beginning to stink a tad....(i'm serious)

gimmesometruth27

i posted this in the other thread, so i though i would put it here too. not so much about police brutality, but the interviewer pretty much got verbally abused, so it kind of fits...

protester owns fox news interviewer in this unaired video...

i like how he said that he liked that fox if finally paying attention to the issues that the other 99% of the population is paying attention to...

i can see why fox didn't air this segment on greta van sustern's show...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/0 ... 92406.html

RFTC

pandora wrote:

[Answers to the problems at hand is what we need and I don't think those are found
at a protest. IMO.
Protests are more like 'here is the problem I'm pissed do something about it'
at least that is how I see them.
Also kind of a charged powder keg right now, easy to lose sight of reason
in the midst of emotion.

respectfully, i believe your wrong, history has proven time and time again that a courageous citizen or citizenry can spark positive social/political change. we (americans) are just not used to this sort of uprising over the last 40 years or so since civil rights/vietnam protests WERE succesful.

brianlux

inlet13 wrote:

So, according to you and that difficult to read drivel...

Merde! Comment pouvez-vous dire que de M. Kunstler? Blasphémateur!!

Byrnzie

cincybearcat wrote:

I think there are really a couple of issues here...first, there is obviously no promise of jobs when you graduate. That is silly. But, I do think some of our fine universities are doing kids a disservice through the choice in programs they have. It's fine if someone want to study something in particular, but they should have a frank discussion up front with the university regarding job placement rate and what types of jobs it has been. There are a lot of worthless degrees out there...well...worthless in that they won't help you get that first job.

Would you like to see all graduate programs scrapped except the hard sciences, engineering, economics, business studies, computer science, e.t.c.?
Do you think there's no place in this world for the arts and humanities? Should English literature, history, and philosophy, e.t.c be wiped from the curriculum?

Byrnzie

pandora wrote:

The thing with the protests, one will find on both sides,
protestors and law enforcement, negative energy.

Let's do battle to get my point across, out of control, antagonist jerks,
putting it kindly. Those who want a fight.... filled with hate. Put that in a crowd
and there is a set up for disaster.

I for one won't be brutalized by either side, I will be no where near the protests.
There will be bloodshed, perhaps much worse, the laws and camps are readied to stifle
any real movement.

People must maintain, remain positive, have hope, be civil, hang onto their freedoms
VOTE
and above all else remember it's only money and not worth dying over.

If one of these young people had died during this protest,
whether caused by an over zealous protestor or law enforcement
how tragic that would be and unnecessary.

Save the fight, save it for the fight for freedom.... hopefully that is not coming,
but that is worth dying for, not the economy or money or the rich getting richer
none of that matters in the end. IMO

Sorry, but your 'do nothing', 'love everybody' attitude has no place in the real World. None of the freedoms people enjoy today came from people sitting on their asses while allowing themselves to be fucked by those in power.

pandora wrote:

Save the fight, save it for the fight for freedom...remember it's only money and not worth dying over

They are fighting for freedom. They're fighting for freedom from corruption, and freedom to have an education without being screwed by the banks and corporations.
As for anyone dying, nobody has died during these protests. So your point is redundant. You're simply trying to justify apathy and indolence, while once again sounding like Yoda.

Byrnzie

cincybearcat wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

don't partially quote me.

Oh really? I should have included the "Dude you have no clue" and then the dumbass comment about the other poster and republicans? That would have added such value to be seen again. Please. You quote stood alone and it's a sick thing to always try to blame your own decisions and actions and choices on others and find someone else to pay for all of your decisions, actions, choices.

He explained his position perfectly well on the first page of this thread.

Just in case you're confused: this thread didn't begin on page three.

Byrnzie

Decent article on the Wall Street Protests here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... -loan-debt

Here's a demand: forgive student loan debt

As US student loan debt nears $1tn, it's time for the banks that stole these young people's future to do the right thing

Robert Applebaum
guardian.co.uk, Monday 3 October 2011



As the Occupy Wall Street protest enters its third straight week in New York and continues spreading all across the country, what is abundantly clear is that "the other 99%" – as opposed to the super-wealthy 1% who've been coddled for decades under the failed economic premise that cutting their taxes and providing them with countless tax shelters, loopholes and other breaks will "trickle down" to the masses – are simply fed up with the status quo. So they are doing the one thing within their power to make their voices heard.

The Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform Act fell far short of addressing the practices and behavior that lead to the near-collapse of the world economy. Corporations are sitting on record levels of cash, but are refusing to hire. Personal debt, including mortgages, credit cards and especially student loan debt have reached astronomical levels. All this is true, yet Washington, DC and the bankers on Wall Street seem tone deaf to the needs of the people.

For two and a half years, I have been advocating for a new way of stimulating economic growth from the bottom-up – a "trickle-up" approach to rebuilding the economy that reflects the realities of the 21st century via the campaign Forgiving Student Loan Debt. The argument is simple: relieving middle-class people of their educational debts would enable them to begin spending money in ailing sectors of the economy, start businesses and families and buy homes – that is, to have the "American Dream" that seems more and more out of reach with each passing day.

For the first time in history, total student loan debt recently surpassed total credit card debt in the US: current and former students collectively owe approximately $946bn in student loan debt, with no sign of this accumulation slowing down. In fact, it's projected to exceed $1tn within the year. Student loans have been stripped of nearly all basic consumer protections that every other type of debt enjoys, including bankruptcy protections and statutes of limitations. So, while you can have your business, credit card, mortgage and even your gambling debts discharged or restructured in bankruptcy court, student loan debt is with you for life – and sometimes beyond.

By turning education into a commodity where the students must personally bear the full costs of an educational system that, in fact, benefits all of society, not just the students themselves, we've shifted the ever-increasing burden of skyrocketing tuition costs down the socio-economic ladder onto those who can least afford to shoulder them. Couple that with a job market that's been utterly decimated by the irresponsibility and greed of those at the very top, the underlying reasons for the Occupy Wall Street protests start to come into focus.

If the Federal Reserve can hand out over $16tn in loans, at little to no interest, to the very institutions that caused the financial collapse in the first place, why must average Americans borrow money at upwards of 8% or more just to obtain an education?

How can we expect the housing market ever to improve when those we generally rely upon to purchase homes – college grads and professionals – are buried under tens of thousands of dollars or more in student loan debt, from which there is almost no escape?

If education is "the great equaliser" it's always touted to be, then why have over 432,000 people signed a petition in favor of student loan forgiveness as a means of economic stimulus? In the two and a half years that I've been working on this issue, I have yet to come across a single person who doesn't want to pay back what they actually borrowed (as opposed to three, four or five times the sum they borrowed); but they simply don't have the means to do so.

For more than 30 years, the rich have gotten richer, the poor have gotten poorer and the middle class has been nearly squeezed out of existence. Forgiving student loan debt would not only provide for a sustained economic stimulus over the course of the next 20-30 years by allowing educated Americans to use the money productively – rather than have to spend it on repaying several times the amount they borrowed to obtain a degree that no longer has the same value it once did. That would not only grow the economy, but it would also serve as a reaffirmation that an education is actually worth pursuing.

The American taxpayers bailed out Wall Street for their recklessness. It's time for Wall Street to do right by the American people who did absolutely nothing wrong, but who feel punished every day.

pandora

Byrnzie wrote:

pandora wrote:

The thing with the protests, one will find on both sides,
protestors and law enforcement, negative energy.

Let's do battle to get my point across, out of control, antagonist jerks,
putting it kindly. Those who want a fight.... filled with hate. Put that in a crowd
and there is a set up for disaster.

I for one won't be brutalized by either side, I will be no where near the protests.
There will be bloodshed, perhaps much worse, the laws and camps are readied to stifle
any real movement.

People must maintain, remain positive, have hope, be civil, hang onto their freedoms
VOTE
and above all else remember it's only money and not worth dying over.

If one of these young people had died during this protest,
whether caused by an over zealous protestor or law enforcement
how tragic that would be and unnecessary.

Save the fight, save it for the fight for freedom.... hopefully that is not coming,
but that is worth dying for, not the economy or money or the rich getting richer
none of that matters in the end. IMO

Sorry, but your 'do nothing', 'love everybody' attitude has no place in the real World. None of the freedoms people enjoy today came from people sitting on their asses while allowing themselves to be fucked by those in power.

pandora wrote:

Save the fight, save it for the fight for freedom...remember it's only money and not worth dying over

They are fighting for freedom. They're fighting for freedom from corruption, and freedom to have an education without being screwed by the banks and corporations.
As for anyone dying, nobody has died during these protests. So your point is redundant. You're simply trying to justify apathy and indolence, while once again sounding like Yoda.

I'd rather not wait until someone dies over student loans :?
They are not fighting for freedom in my opinion.

I would have to say my post spoke no where of love for everyone ... not that I see.
I think perhaps you think that is what I am always saying and so you don't listen.
Guess love doesn't strike a chord with you.

Yoda's pretty cute though and I think wise so thank you for that much

It is anything but apathy. Choose our battles wisely we must and be prepared and powerful
and a strong loud voice. That is success. Having backing from those in power
and with some economic clout would help too. Very organized.

Protests like these I am not much for because of the threat of the innocent
being injured or worse, I prefer voicing in other ways.
Right now these will escalate because of emotions and yes someone could die.
Having children in this age group with their entire lives ahead of them that hits way too
close to home.

pandora

RFTC wrote:

pandora wrote:

[Answers to the problems at hand is what we need and I don't think those are found
at a protest. IMO.
Protests are more like 'here is the problem I'm pissed do something about it'
at least that is how I see them.
Also kind of a charged powder keg right now, easy to lose sight of reason
in the midst of emotion.

respectfully, i believe your wrong, history has proven time and time again that a courageous citizen or citizenry can spark positive social/political change. we (americans) are just not used to this sort of uprising over the last 40 years or so since civil rights/vietnam protests WERE succesful.

Correct we are not used to this and there are a bunch of hotheads
hanging about these days not hippies filled with love and respect for life,
fighting a war on the other side of the world.

America is full of people wanting to retaliate not speak for change.
Angry people who want someone to pay but who will pay are not those who should ...
and they will pay dearly.

I remember the riots in 68 in Milwaukee ... I don't want see people die.
It would be a shootout now making those riots look like nothing.

Back then their were no camps to throw the unruly and innocent in.
Let's not let stuff get out of control, stay calm and civil but unfortunately this is not
what everyone wants.

Byrnzie

pandora wrote:

I'd rather not wait until someone dies over student loans :?
They are not fighting for freedom in my opinion.

I would have to say my post spoke no where of love for everyone ... not that I see.
I think perhaps you think that is what I am always saying and so you don't listen.
Guess love doesn't strike a chord with you.

Yoda's pretty cute though and I think wise so thank you for that much

It is anything but apathy. Choose our battles wisely we must and be prepared and powerful
and a strong loud voice. That is success. Having backing from those in power
and with some economic clout would help too. Very organized.

Protests like these I am not much for because of the threat of the innocent
being injured or worse, I prefer voicing in other ways.
Right now these will escalate because of emotions and yes someone could die.
Having children in this age group with their entire lives ahead of them that hits way too
close to home.

Someone could die, and down the years many people have died fighting for many of the rights and privileges that we enjoy today. But that doesn't mean we should just sit on our asses and repeat vacuous phrases like 'Love and let live and love' from our comfy armchairs.
1% of the population is taking the other 99% for a ride. The fact that some of the 99%'rs are standing up to this and making their voices heard is admirable. Of course there are some among the 99% who don't like to see anyone rocking the boat and think that the 1% has their best interests at heart. These people are functionaries. Their job is to watch t.v and do as they're told. The World couldn't function the way it does without them. So what? Fuck these people. It's the students and the poor who have been made to feel the brunt of the economic crises that was caused by the rich bankers - the 1% - and so it's only natural that it's these same people who have been taking to the streets in England, and America, e.t.c. and demanding that the 1%'rs be held accountable.

But someone might die, therefore they should all go home and watch t.v like good obedient citizens.

pandora

Byrnzie wrote:

pandora wrote:

I'd rather not wait until someone dies over student loans :?
They are not fighting for freedom in my opinion.

I would have to say my post spoke no where of love for everyone ... not that I see.
I think perhaps you think that is what I am always saying and so you don't listen.
Guess love doesn't strike a chord with you.

Yoda's pretty cute though and I think wise so thank you for that much

It is anything but apathy. Choose our battles wisely we must and be prepared and powerful
and a strong loud voice. That is success. Having backing from those in power
and with some economic clout would help too. Very organized.

Protests like these I am not much for because of the threat of the innocent
being injured or worse, I prefer voicing in other ways.
Right now these will escalate because of emotions and yes someone could die.
Having children in this age group with their entire lives ahead of them that hits way too
close to home.

Someone could die, and down the years many people have died fighting for many of the rights and privileges that we enjoy today. But that doesn't mean we should just sit on our asses and repeat vacuous phrases like 'Love and let live and love' from our comfy armchairs.
1% of the population is taking the other 99% for a ride. The fact that some of the 99%'rs are standing up to this and making their voices heard is admirable. Of course there are some among the 99% who don't like to see anyone rocking the boat and think that the 1% has their best interests at heart. These people are functionaries. Their job is to watch t.v and do as they're told. The World couldn't function the way it does without them. So what? Fuck these people. It's the students and the poor who have been made to feel the brunt of the economic crises that was caused by the rich bankers - the 1% - and so it's only natural that it's these same people who have been taking to the streets in England, and America, e.t.c. and demanding that the 1%'rs be held accountable.

But someone might die, therefore they should all go home and watch t.v like good obedient citizens.

Are you in the front of the line protesting? or are you asking others to do so?

I am for peace and smart strategic moves not half assed protests that could lead to bloodshed.
One wrong action by a hothead and many could get hurt.
I am also for compromise, working out something with the student loans that
is doable. This hopefully will happen.

Also, again, I never said in this post 'live and let live and love'
you are not listening, I get that, you have an opinion of me.
But thanks for remembering my mantra that touches my heart and that is not sarcasm ...

Byrnzie

pandora wrote:

Are you in the front of the line protesting? or are you asking others to do so?

No, but I support their actions, as I pointed out above.

pandora wrote:

I am for peace and smart strategic moves not half assed protests that could lead to bloodshed.
One wrong action by a hothead and many could get hurt.

Either it's a half assed protest, in which case they'll be no bloodshed, or it will escalate into something more confrontational, in which case there may well be bloodshed.
So which do you prefer?

pandora wrote:

I am also for compromise, working out something with the student loans that
is doable. This hopefully will happen.

Not by people sitting on their apathetic asses it won't. Apathy never got anyone anywhere.

pandora wrote:

Also, again, I never said in this post 'live and let live and love'
you are not listening, I get that, you have an opinion of me.
But thanks for remembering my mantra that touches my heart and that is not sarcasm ...

Your 'mantra' has no place in the real world. You try to convince us that you possess some higher understanding and that you 'choose the path of non-judgement' while at the same time accusing anyone who actually tries to change things as being filled with 'hate'

pandora wrote:

Let's do battle to get my point across, out of control, antagonist jerks,
putting it kindly. Those who want a fight.... filled with hate.

This thread drew attention to the fact that the New York Police have been beating the protestors, but you chime in here with a post praising the police with a and telling us that we should not forget they are heroes. Then when someone disagrees with you we get the following:

pandora wrote:

People only like people with shared mindset I guess

I think the problem we have here is that you keep posting your psuedo-religious mantra's and wishy-washy dictum's in a section of this message board that deals with politics and activism.

pandora wrote:

you should know forgiveness and be tolerant and understanding...

pandora wrote:

cast no stones... and live and let live this everyone can do
everyone learns eventually all in good time

Bombarding people with patronising, psuedo religious nonsense on a political section of a message board is not going to win you any disciples. I think you'd be far better off on a street corner with a sandwich board.

Just my humble opinion.

Anyway, this thread has now been successfully derailed, much like the thread on gays in the military was derailed a few days ago.

So it goes!