Occupy Wall Street and police brutality

gimmesometruth27

so are you saying that you favor the state using violence on it's own people?

the same state that you tea partiers were raging against last month??

funny...

Monster Rain

People like this are the reason why so many people don't take these protesters seriously.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/10/ ... 6589.shtml

"We are the 99 percent, you know, and it's not fair that people don't have to pay taxes, that corporations don't have to pay taxes and like we do," Helen Curran, a student at Pace University, told WCBS-TV. "It's like my mom pays more taxes than like Walmart does."

Spoken like a true like genius would like speak. I'd like to like point out that like the only people who like don't pay taxes are like so totally not the like richest 1%. In 2008, the top 1% earned 20% of the Adjusted Gross Income, but paid 38% of the taxes. The top 5% earned 34.7% of the income and paid 58.7% of the taxes. So who isn't paying taxes? It sure as hell isn't anyone in the top 1% or 5%. The bottom 50% paid 2.7% of the income and had an average tax rate of just 2.59% of their Adjusted Gross Income, compared to an average tax rate of 23.27% for the 1% who are apparently not paying their share (that's approximately double the overall average tax rate, by the way). So is this girl complaining that people with low incomes don't have to pay any federal income tax? If so, I think she joined the wrong protest. Then again, these protesters all seem to want different things, so maybe she really is in the right place. She should probably be in class, though, and the rest of them might want to consider going home and looking for jobs because they may be hard to find but they're impossible to find when you're not looking.

Yeah, times are tough. College is expensive. Jobs are hard to find. The economy's not so great. I've been there. It took me a year to find a full-time job after I graduated. I had to go back to my summer job and then had to keep applying and hoping for interviews all winter. I was in bed with a 102-degree fever for a week and only got out of bed on the 8th day to go on another interview (which I bombed due to my fever). I finally found a job, though. I didn't bitch that Sallie Mae was wrong for expecting me to pay back my loans. I didn't cry about the people with million-dollar incomes because I know that you don't just get handed those jobs, you have to work hard and earn them. I didn't blame anyone else's success for my troubles. I didn't whine about "the man" keeping me down. I kept looking, I worked on making my resume stand out, I practiced job interviews in my head, and I made myself as desirable a candidate to employers as I could. I had a good chunk of change in student loans to pay back to Sallie Mae and the federal government. I paid them back on my own--and that was before there was the option to stretch payments out based on your income, so I was paying full-price every month for 10 years, but I paid them off. I'm still nowhere near the richest 1% but I somehow managed to do it. I didn't even know about uPromise until the last 6 months of my loan, either. I would have paid my loans off early if I had known about that sooner. Maybe these people complaining about their student loan debt should look into it and figure out ways to make it work the same way I did and stop feeling entitled to success without effort.

Monster Rain

First off, I'm not a Tea Partier. I might agree with their message, but I wouldn't know because they tend to choose the worst possible people to deliver that message so I can't be bothered. I'll jsut keep doing what I've always done--listen to each candidate and vote for the one I agree with on the things I find most important.

Second, yes I am in favor of the police using force against violent protesters. When a group that large is trying to crash a barricade and are putting those officers in danger, the police need to protect themselves and the public the barricades are there to protect. What were they supposed to do, politely ask them to stop running into them? The barricade was the polite request. If a group of people kicked in your door and put your life in danger and you had the means to defend yourself would you just stand there and act helpless or defend yourself? I have a hard time believing that anyone would not defend themselves.

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

so are you saying that you favor the state using violence on it's own people?

the same state that you tea partiers were raging against last month??

funny...

gimmesometruth27

Monster Rain wrote:

First off, I'm not a Tea Partier. I might agree with their message, but I wouldn't know because they tend to choose the worst possible people to deliver that message so I can't be bothered. I'll jsut keep doing what I've always done--listen to each candidate and vote for the one I agree with on the things I find most important.

Second, yes I am in favor of the police using force against violent protesters. When a group that large is trying to crash a barricade and are putting those officers in danger, the police need to protect themselves and the public the barricades are there to protect. What were they supposed to do, politely ask them to stop running into them? The barricade was the polite request. If a group of people kicked in your door and put your life in danger and you had the means to defend yourself would you just stand there and act helpless or defend yourself? I have a hard time believing that anyone would not defend themselves.

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

so are you saying that you favor the state using violence on it's own people?

the same state that you tea partiers were raging against last month??

funny...

at what point does self defense become a felony? i believe baton blows are a felony. assault with a deadly weapon. aggravated battery, whatever you want to call it.

who's side are you on?

Monster Rain

There was nothing about those officers' actions that was a felony. They acted within the law and within police guidelines. They were controlling a crowd that knowingly and intentionally had become violent.

I'm not on anyone's side. I think the protesters are disorganized and misguided but I support their right to protest peacefully and within the law. The people who tried to ram through the police barricade were not peaceful. They intentionally acted in a violent manner towards the police and did so with the knowledge that they were breaking the law in doing so.

So let me pose the question to you? Whose side are you on? Do you advocate the actions of the protesters who tried to crash the barricade?

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

at what point does self defense become a felony? i believe baton blows are a felony. assault with a deadly weapon. aggravated battery, whatever you want to call it.

who's side are you on?

cincybearcat

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

so are you saying that you favor the state using violence on it's own people?

the same state that you tea partiers were raging against last month??

funny...

I like what you did there. Using "the state" instead of the reality that it's another human being that is being threatened by people pushing on a barricade. It's not the state, it's an individual that is ultimately protecting him/herself as well as others by trying to keep the protesters in line.

Earlier on there were certainly some abuses of power shown, but not every use of power is an abuse.

brianlux

Considering how widespread these protest are, it's amazing how relatively peaceful they are. It's almost (but not really) funny how the relatively few incidents of violent protest keep getting the attention. The bottom line is still this- the divsion between the have and have nots continues to grow and a huge number of people are saying "no" to the greedy few at the top who manipulate the system to their advantage. Unless someone is in that very small top tier, I don't understand why they would support it.

Jeanwah

brianlux wrote:

Considering how widespread these protest are, it's amazing how relatively peaceful they are. It's almost (but not really) funny how the relatively few incidents of violent protest keep getting the attention. The bottom line is still this- the divsion between the have and have nots continues to grow and a huge number of people are saying "no" to the greedy few at the top who manipulate the system to their advantage. Unless someone is in that very small top tier, I don't understand why they would support it.

I don't understand that either Brian. I think more people are brainwashed from watching too much Fox News and believing their Republican reps than we think. And these people are the ones being screwed, so I really can't understand that, but my in-laws are exactly that stereotype. They don't see that their reps are not looking out for their best interests, they think they are! It just blows my mind.

brianlux

Jeanwah wrote:

brianlux wrote:

Considering how widespread these protest are, it's amazing how relatively peaceful they are. It's almost (but not really) funny how the relatively few incidents of violent protest keep getting the attention. The bottom line is still this- the divsion between the have and have nots continues to grow and a huge number of people are saying "no" to the greedy few at the top who manipulate the system to their advantage. Unless someone is in that very small top tier, I don't understand why they would support it.

I don't understand that either Brian. I think more people are brainwashed from watching too much Fox News and believing their Republican reps than we think. And these people are the ones being screwed, so I really can't understand that, but my in-laws are exactly that stereotype. They don't see that their reps are not looking out for their best interests, they think they are! It just blows my mind.

Yes, Jeanwah. Ironic as hell isn't it?!

cincybearcat

Honestly I'm pretty tired of people with an opposing viewpoint being seen as brainwashed or watching Fox news. It happens on every subject and it's pathetic.

Monster Rain

In 2007 the top 1% earned 22.8% of the income based on Adjusted Gross Income. In 2008 that dropped to 20.0%, according to the IRS. I've seen figures posted here that say they earn 24%, but that goes back to 2007 and is rounded up from 23.5% in the article I saw on slate.com (which got it from a paper published by a Professor at Berkely who does not cite a source for his figure), which I assume is either not the AGI figure the IRS uses or is just wrong (possibly an estimate before the actual figure were released?). In either case, that's down to 20.0% for the most recent numbers I can find. The article I found is from last October, so it's possible that new figures will be released soon for 2009's taxes. Anyway, the numbers from 2007-2008 showed the top 1% actually losing ground on the rest of us, not widening the divide as you say they are. Now, the next set of figures released could very well show that to be a 1-year blip but it's all we have to go by right now. I find it funny that people protesting and supporting the protesters are using that 24% figure around as undeniable fact when the number is actually old and no longer true (if it ever was true to begin with).

brianlux wrote:

Considering how widespread these protest are, it's amazing how relatively peaceful they are. It's almost (but not really) funny how the relatively few incidents of violent protest keep getting the attention. The bottom line is still this- the divsion between the have and have nots continues to grow and a huge number of people are saying "no" to the greedy few at the top who manipulate the system to their advantage. Unless someone is in that very small top tier, I don't understand why they would support it.

Monster Rain

Why is it that you think the Republicans are out to get us all? Don't you think it's possible that they just have a different belief in how to accomplish a strong nation? I don't watch Fox News and I'm pretty sure I'm not brainwashed--although, would I know it if I was? Hmmm. If it's all the Republicans' fault, why hasn't Obama's jobs bill helped get the unemployment rate under 9%?

Here's what I find confusing: Celebrities who go down to spend 20 minutes checking out the protesters to "show their support." Guess what those celebrities are? Part of the top 1% these people are rallying against like children who don't get to play with the neighbors' kid's toys. Here's the kicker: they "manipulate the system" the same way "the Establishment" does and I truly hope nobody thinks they don't. When these artists are giving their time and money to charities and having someone invest their money, they're writing it all off when the tax man comes a-knockin' the same way the "greedy" people do. Yet they show up and pretend (or truly believe) that they aren't in that 1% and the protesters accept them as one of their own because they can sing or act really well or run fast, which makes them better than the other people who got to be in that 1% by being good at things like math.

Jeanwah wrote:

brianlux wrote:

Considering how widespread these protest are, it's amazing how relatively peaceful they are. It's almost (but not really) funny how the relatively few incidents of violent protest keep getting the attention. The bottom line is still this- the divsion between the have and have nots continues to grow and a huge number of people are saying "no" to the greedy few at the top who manipulate the system to their advantage. Unless someone is in that very small top tier, I don't understand why they would support it.

I don't understand that either Brian. I think more people are brainwashed from watching too much Fox News and believing their Republican reps than we think. And these people are the ones being screwed, so I really can't understand that, but my in-laws are exactly that stereotype. They don't see that their reps are not looking out for their best interests, they think they are! It just blows my mind.

gimmesometruth27

Post deleted by Admin.

usamamasan1

A conservative is a contrarian on here in your definition. It is not baiting, it is adding a voice to the vacuum that is the AMT.

Go Beavers

usamamasan1 wrote:

A conservative is a contrarian on here in your definition. It is not baiting, it is adding a voice to the vacuum that is the AMT.

Who could accuse you of baiting?!

brianlux

Ok- fair enough. "Brainwashing" and Fox "news" aside, I still stand by my point: The very few have more money than they need or can possibly use no matter what the details of the statistics- it's the few with the most. Those few continue to increase their wealth and control while the average person continues to struggle more and more just to get by and the number who fall into poverty increases. Unless one is extreemly secure, almost any of us can end up in poverty. I've been there- gone from relatively well off to literally, in one fell swoop, being in poverty for a number of years. Getting out of that dank basement requires extreme effort and luck- I worked very hard and was damn lucky. (I'm need no sympathy- I'm just citing an example.) The system is geared that way and it doesn't care about what happens to you because it is run by the extremely well off. And unless you are one of those few who are exceptionally well off, I don't know why you would support a system that is spreading the gap between the few with the most and the many with the least. Unless it's just about arguing for the sake of arguement, I honestly and sincerely just don't get it.

dignin

Jeanwah wrote:

brianlux wrote:

Considering how widespread these protest are, it's amazing how relatively peaceful they are. It's almost (but not really) funny how the relatively few incidents of violent protest keep getting the attention. The bottom line is still this- the divsion between the have and have nots continues to grow and a huge number of people are saying "no" to the greedy few at the top who manipulate the system to their advantage. Unless someone is in that very small top tier, I don't understand why they would support it.

I think more people are brainwashed from watching too much Fox News and believing their Republican reps than we think.

Im from Canada and I just started listening to satellite radio (Sirius) and out of curiosity I checked out the FOX news channel. It was funny because the points that the talking heads were making on that "news" channel about the OWS protests were almost word for word what some of the folks (not all) on this thread (and others) make. I am not exaggerating in the least. Up here we have more balanced major mainsteam news channels in my opinion. Nothing near as divisive or partisan as FOX. So I think there may be some truth to that statement.

Monster Rain

I agree that there are problems with our economy that need fixing, I just don't agree that the existence of wealthy people is the problem and I don't think most of the protesters have a good idea about any of these issues based on the interviews I've seen and read. I get the impression that a lot of these people are really just there so they can be a part of some sort of "movement" and it reeks of imitating the Arab protests from earlier in the year. There is no clear message being given from the people there. If there was, I might be able to get behind them a little bit but I see and hear a lot of people railing against "greed," "the man," and "the Establishment" like it's Woodstock and I see people complaining that they have student loan debt as if they were forced at gunpoint to sign the paperwork for those loans. I've heard people say they're protesting "all the stuff going on with the Fed" and their "fake money" without explaining what any of that really means and it makes them sound like paranoid conspiracy theorists. Most of all, I hear a lot of talk about "the system" and how it's broken, but I don't see anyone with any solutions. Most importantly, I'm not sure who exactly they're mad at. Is it the government? Is it individual companies? Both? People who utilize the tax breaks that exist? Wall Street isn't an actual entity, so it's not like there's a CEO of Wall Street to come out and placate them. It seems like they're really just mad at people who have a lot of money and assume that they've obtained that money unfairly, but I don't know what they think is unfair. Who do they blame for the lack of jobs?

I actually see your story as one of personal accomplishment that is possible in our system when you work hard, but I see a lot of people protesting who seem to think that life should never be even remotely unpleasant let alone hard and whatever message they want us to take from this is coming across as whining because other people have things they don't and I view that as a childish outlook on life. I think a lot of them haven't really experienced life, and I can safely say that most (not all) of the ones who are college students haven't experienced the real world at all yet and they seem like they're afraid to face it. I get it. The world is a terrifying place, especially when you're finishing school and have loans to pay and it's hard to find a job. I was in that spot at one point, but if you view it as an impossible situation in which to succeed, then that's what it will become for you and that's how a lot of these people come across--"Well that looks hard so I'll just give up and protest so I can blame other people." I understand that there are other people protesting, too, but I'm just talking about this one segment that seems to be the largest group there--young adults who are in their late-teens to early-20s.

I don't want to come across as thinking our economic system is perfect. There's no such thing as a perfect system. There are always things that can be changed as the world changes, but I don't get the feeling that the people in NY are looking for subtle changes.

brianlux wrote:

Ok- fair enough. "Brainwashing" and Fox "news" aside, I still stand by my point: The very few have more money than they need or can possibly use no matter what the details of the statistics- it's the few with the most. Those few continue to increase their wealth and control while the average person continues to struggle more and more just to get by and the number who fall into poverty increases. Unless one is extreemly secure, almost any of us can end up in poverty. I've been there- gone from relatively well off to literally, in one fell swoop, being in poverty for a number of years. Getting out of that dank basement requires extreme effort and luck- I worked very hard and was damn lucky. (I'm need no sympathy- I'm just citing an example.) The system is geared that way and it doesn't care about what happens to you because it is run by the extremely well off. And unless you are one of those few who are exceptionally well off, I don't know why you would support a system that is spreading the gap between the few with the most and the many with the least. Unless it's just about arguing for the sake of arguement, I honestly and sincerely just don't get it.

usamamasan1

Monster Rain wrote:

I get the impression that a lot of these people are really just there so they can be a part of some sort of "movement" and it reeks of imitating the Arab protests from earlier in the year. There is no clear message being given from the people there. If there was, I might be able to get behind them a little bit but I see and hear a lot of people railing against "greed," "the man," and "the Establishment" like it's Woodstock and I see people complaining that they have student loan debt as if they were forced at gunpoint to sign the paperwork for those loans.

that pretty much sums it up

brianlux

Monster Rain wrote:

I actually see your story as one of personal accomplishment that is possible in our system when you work hard, but I see a lot of people protesting who seem to think that life should never be even remotely unpleasant let alone hard and whatever message they want us to take from this is coming across as whining because other people have things they don't and I view that as a childish outlook on life.

It was a personal accomplishment (thank you for saying that) and I did (and still do as much as I am able) work hard but I also said I was very lucky. I was lucky because I had a college degree from a California State University that for my first semester only charged $50 (no kidding!) for a full load. I was lucky because as much as it was very scary to live in my vehicle for over two years at least it was a van and not a beat up Honda Civic or a cardboard box. And just by pure dumb luck, I'm a white male. The times I was rousted out if I'd been black or brown or Indian I might have been tossed in jail... or worse. A lot of people below the poverty line don't have and probably never will have the breaks I've had.

I'm sure some of the people out there protesting are whiners but that overlooks the bigger picture which is what I've already said several times- the gap is growing, poverty is just a paycheck away for way to many people and the powers that be don't care if you're one of them.