The Death Penalty

callen

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

callen said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

rgambs said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

rgambs said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

rgambs said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

catefrances said:

The death penalty is state sanctioned murder and simply revenge. It does nothing to deter people from committing capital crimes.

Simply put... no.

It's a 'punishment' that should be used as a response for the most grievous 'crimes' of murder we are forced to deal with (such as the bastard who raped and killed an 11 month infant discussed a page ago).

Any action taken at all can be considered 'revenge' so again... no. If you are going to call the DP revenge, then you would need to do the same as life in prison. Your preference doesn't establish anything.

And I can agree that it does do very little to deter people from committing crimes, but as has been established already... with its limited application (something like 0.004 percent of all murders receive the DP within DP states)... it has hardly had the chance to definitively prove one way or another its effectiveness as a deterrent.

I don't agree with this. Imprisonment can, and should, be about sequestration from society. I don't think prison should be used for non-violent offenses at all, we should get away from the archaic penal style system.

What constitutes a non-violent offense and what should be the punishment instead?
Getting away from the archaic penal style system is great if one can offer a suggestion along with the observation.

A non-violent offense is one that doesn't entail violence. Duh. Theft in it's many forms and drug offenses mostly.
A suggestion? That's obvious, instead of putting people away where they only burden society, put them to work to better society.

Don't see the need for you to condescend by stating "Duh".

Non-violent offenses may be committed out of previous violence that led to the crime in the first place. A successful thief robbing a store non-violently for cash inevitably will lead to a more violent crime as soon as said thief is challenged.

Drug offenses mostly? - All illegal drugs at this time are protected by violence (cartels, gangs, etc) and can be pursued with violence at times by if the "fix" can't be had non-violently.

Putting people to work to better society? can you elaborate a little on that,
the quality of work from thieves and drug users may be lacking....

I don't see the need for you to always be asking questions to which the answers are self-evident and clearly obvious. You had a point to make, and you made it, the question was unnecessary. Make your rebuttal and be done with it.
Now to the point you made.

If's and maybes. We don't convict people based on things they might have done if things went differently. That whole baloney about drugs and violence amounts to the same, we don't convict people who haven't done the crime. If drug buyers and sellers are responsible for cartel crime, then gun manufacturers are responsible for gun violence?

There is plenty of skilled and non-skilled work that can be done by thieves and drug users. Use your imagination.

Some people can tell you the square root of a pickle jar but can't open it.
There are no self-evident and clearly obvious answers if even one person is asking questions.
For anyone to be told that their inquiry is irrelevant to them is indicative of a one-way conversation.
You made your rebuttal and I am not done.
Now to the points you made.

There is no baloney when it comes to illegal drugs - it is all stemmed in violence.
We don't convict people who haven't done the crime but drug sentences are harsh to deter any further potential violent crimes being committed.

Drug sellers and buyers are not responsible for cartel/gang crime but without buyers of illegal drugs these thugs don't have an existence.

Making people perform labour as punishment is stupid.

Having substances illegal is stupid.

Even cocaine and heroin?

Yes

oftenreading

An interesting article about the decline is use of the death penalty in the US. What struck me most was the unequal distribution of the DP decisions, and the comments about this.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/the-death-penalty-becomes-unusual/390867/

callen

Yeah the headline isn't the most striking, it's again human subjectivity that again rears it's ugly side.

JimmyV

The death penalty should be rarely used. The problem has always been that it is used too much, not that it exists as an option. This is good news. Hopefully we will see the trend spread through those counties where it is still more commonly enforced.

Last-12-Exit

A South Carolina bill wants to add the firing squad to the list of ways to kill inmates in the state. This is coming about because the drugs used in lethal injection expired in 2013 and the companies that sell the drugs don't want to open the door for harassment. The default mode of execution in the state is lethal injection unless the inmate specifically asked for the electric chair.

http://www.goupstate.com/article/20150422/wire/150429922

JimmyV

If you are going to carry out a death sentence, then I have no problem with firing squad as the method. Line up the condemned, allow them to see their executioners and know what is coming. There is a certain honesty to it that lethal injection is lacking. Strapping someone to a bed and injecting them with painful poison is made worse by the charade that it is somehow more humane. It is not. In my opinion.

callen

JimmyV said:

If you are going to carry out a death sentence, then I have no problem with firing squad as the method. Line up the condemned, allow them to see their executioners and know what is coming. There is a certain honesty to it that lethal injection is lacking. Strapping someone to a bed and injecting them with painful poison is made worse by the charade that it is somehow more humane. It is not. In my opinion.

I don't know rather have drugs than knowing 10 high speed projectiles will be shredding my body and it likely be a few moments till I'm dead. And how bad is it for those that pull the trigger.

Course all barbaric in my opinion and still can't wrap my head around allowing any if we know innocent people will be out to death.

callen

South Carolina has higher percentage of religious than most states. 93% of pollution are Christians. And firing squads/executions are just hunky dory. Guess I really need to read the Bible some more cause I'm getting mixed messages.

Last-12-Exit

callen said:

South Carolina has higher percentage of religious than most states. 93% of pollution are Christians. And firing squads/executions are just hunky dory. Guess I really need to read the Bible some more cause I'm getting mixed messages.

They consider themselves the bible belt down here. Tattoos were just legalized a few years ago, hey, we are progressing.

JimmyV

Last-12-Exit said:

A South Carolina bill wants to add the firing squad to the list of ways to kill inmates in the state. This is coming about because the drugs used in lethal injection expired in 2013 and the companies that sell the drugs don't want to open the door for harassment. The default mode of execution in the state is lethal injection unless the inmate specifically asked for the electric chair.

http://www.goupstate.com/article/20150422/wire/150429922

Holy shit.

"Burning was the only other execution method routinely used in the state, with the last of 13 criminals burned to death in 1825, according to the center."

We had burnings here too during the Salem Witch Trials but that was almost 200 years earlier.

EDIT:

I stand corrected according to Wikipedia. While rare we did have a burning in Massachusetts as recently as 1755:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_by_burning#North_America

"In Massachusetts, there are two known cases of burning at the stake. First, in 1681, a slave named Maria tried to kill her owner by setting his house on fire. She was convicted of arson and burned at the stake in Roxbury.[94] Concurrently, a slave named Jack, convicted in a separate arson case, was hanged at a nearby gallows, and after death his body was thrown into the fire with that of Maria. Second, in 1755, a group of slaves had conspired and killed their owner, with servants Mark and Phillis executed for his murder. Mark was hanged and his body gibbeted, and Phillis burned at the stake, at Cambridge.[95]"

Thirty Bills Unpaid

The last time I was in Boston, I checked out Salem.

Knowing the history, I was weirded out there. I checked out the historical sites and I couldn't stop thinking of those poor women and those ravenous religious nutjobs.

callen

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

The last time I was in Boston, I checked out Salem.

Knowing the history, I was weirded out there. I checked out the historical sites and I couldn't stop thinking of those poor women and those ravenous religious nutjobs.

Ravenous nut jobs is what I think as some drool at the thought of someone being executed in our present day America. Americans in few years will look at us as we now do them.

hedonist

callen said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

The last time I was in Boston, I checked out Salem.

Knowing the history, I was weirded out there. I checked out the historical sites and I couldn't stop thinking of those poor women and those ravenous religious nutjobs.

Ravenous nut jobs is what I think as some drool at the thought of someone being executed in our present day America. Americans in few years will look at us as we now do them.

Ravenous nutjob is what I think of when reading about the local asshole who kidnapped and raped a toddler - dumped her naked after he was done - or the young man who sodomized his two-year-old stepsister (not to mention the judge who all but excused his behavior).

Last-12-Exit

callen said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

The last time I was in Boston, I checked out Salem.

Knowing the history, I was weirded out there. I checked out the historical sites and I couldn't stop thinking of those poor women and those ravenous religious nutjobs.

Ravenous nut jobs is what I think as some drool at the thought of someone being executed in our present day America. Americans in few years will look at us as we now do them.

There's a huge difference between killing teenage girls for heresy than killing grown adults convicted of murder.

I don't think we will be thought of in the same light as the nut jobs in salem.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

callen said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

The last time I was in Boston, I checked out Salem.

Knowing the history, I was weirded out there. I checked out the historical sites and I couldn't stop thinking of those poor women and those ravenous religious nutjobs.

Ravenous nut jobs is what I think as some drool at the thought of someone being executed in our present day America. Americans in few years will look at us as we now do them.

Ridiculous thing to say.

Comparing burning women alive who are suspected of being a witch to sentencing a toddler rapist and murderer to death for their crime is a colossal leap.

Is this what the anti-death penalty argument has been reduced to? I feel cemented in my beliefs more than ever if the opponents of the DP view child murderers the same as Salem witchhunt victims.

I'll say it again... ridiculous.

callen

Eh may seem ridiculous but will be the case that future humans will look back at our capital punishment with same view as we do Salem. Course much of the civilized western world already do.

Oh and now we're bringing back firing squads. Woo hoo.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

callen said:

Eh may seem ridiculous but will be the case that future humans will look back at our capital punishment with same view as we do Salem. Course much of the civilized western world already do.

Oh and now we're bringing back firing squads. Woo hoo.

No they won't. Some might... but only those that cannot distinguish the difference between burning an innocent woman at the stake for suspected of being a witch and executing a man for raping, torturing, and killing a small child.

They are not even in the same galaxy. So no.

* Don't wanna face a firing squad? Don't murder people. It's really that simple.

oftenreading

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

Eh may seem ridiculous but will be the case that future humans will look back at our capital punishment with same view as we do Salem. Course much of the civilized western world already do.

Oh and now we're bringing back firing squads. Woo hoo.

No they won't. Some might... but only those that cannot distinguish the difference between burning an innocent woman at the stake for suspected of being a witch and executing a man for raping, torturing, and killing a small child.

They are not even in the same galaxy. So no.

* Don't wanna face a firing squad? Don't murder people. It's really that simple.

To the culture of the time, witchcraft was a fact and something to be horrified and disgusted by. Witches were believed to commit all sorts of heinous crimes, including killing infants, so yes, viewed in that context these are comparable.

oftenreading

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

Eh may seem ridiculous but will be the case that future humans will look back at our capital punishment with same view as we do Salem. Course much of the civilized western world already do.

Oh and now we're bringing back firing squads. Woo hoo.

No they won't. Some might... but only those that cannot distinguish the difference between burning an innocent woman at the stake for suspected of being a witch and executing a man for raping, torturing, and killing a small child.

They are not even in the same galaxy. So no.

* Don't wanna face a firing squad? Don't murder people. It's really that simple.

* And also don't get falsely accused, or face a prosecutor who knows his job depends on getting a certain number of convictions...

Last-12-Exit

oftenreading said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

callen said:

Eh may seem ridiculous but will be the case that future humans will look back at our capital punishment with same view as we do Salem. Course much of the civilized western world already do.

Oh and now we're bringing back firing squads. Woo hoo.

No they won't. Some might... but only those that cannot distinguish the difference between burning an innocent woman at the stake for suspected of being a witch and executing a man for raping, torturing, and killing a small child.

They are not even in the same galaxy. So no.

* Don't wanna face a firing squad? Don't murder people. It's really that simple.

To the culture of the time, witchcraft was a fact and something to be horrified and disgusted by. Witches were believed to commit all sorts of heinous crimes, including killing infants, so yes, viewed in that context these are comparable.

No, it's not comparable. Yes witchcraft was thought of as a heinous crime. As it turns out, it was simply not true. Not even a real crime. Child murder is true. Child rape and molestation happens. It is committed by disgusting, demented people. To compare the two is just a way of completely distorting reality to defend your argument.