The Death Penalty

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  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Monster Rain wrote:
    Yes, it is possible that someone with a suspended license will drive. That person will also serve jail time for doing so and will either have their license suspended even longer or will have it suspended permanently. And while that person is in jail they will not be able to drive. My focus isn't on guarantees; my focus is on guarantees when it applies to the most violent criminals and those are the ones who commit premeditated murder. It seems like you want to try to trick me into thinking I have to support the death penalty for drunk driving in order to guarantee that it doesn't happen again, but I'm not that dumb.

    I'm not talking about just serial killers, although that was a nice attempt to change the appearance of the debate so that it favors your argument. I could counter that by saying that 100% of serial killers kill more than one person and then ask you how many drunk drivers are involved in multiple fatal accidents if that's the path you want to take.

    I don't agree with your assessment that we have violence because we have the death penalty. I would say that we have the death penalty because we have people willing to murder. It's not like we created the death penalty for no reason and then someone stepped up and said, "I'll go kill someone now in order to justify this strange new penalty!" Murder existed before the death penalty for committing murder.

    firstly ... i'm not trying to trick you into anything ... i am only framing the discussion as i see it ... if you want to dismiss my talking points ... that's your prerogative but you are not making a case for capital punishment in the process ... all i'm seeing is that you support capital punishment based on the actions of a minute percentage of criminals and on the notion that you want to guarantee they never re-commit ... i think that is absurd based on relative detriment to society ...

    you have violence because your society accepts the use of violence ... see wars and gun laws for reference ...

    anyhoo - i'm out for the day ... i'll respond to all you pitchforkers tomorrow ... :D
  • lukin2006
    lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    polaris_x wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    If its used as an excuse to harm others then yes i'm mocking it.

    I'm not mocking child abuse, it the people who use it as an excuse to harm others I'm mocking.

    so ... victims of child abuse lose any form of empathy as soon as they do something bad themselves!? ... :(

    The people I'm referring about has done something a little worse than bad. They are monsters.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • your move now
    your move now Posts: 1,165
    Death isn't a punishment though...
    The purpose of the justice system consists of 4 main points
    1) punishment
    2) Rehabilitation
    3) Protection of Society
    4) Warn off other potential offenders.

    Without going into all of the ethical (and possibly opinion based reasons, not to mention the fact that it is very rare to have all of the relevant information relating to a case) the death penalty serves only the protection of society from the offender.
    Death is easy and once youre gone it has zero effect on you
    Obviously you can't rehab a dead person :roll:
    And again for other potential offenders death is easy and depending on the crime many may be willing to die for it in this day and age...
    I don't mean to offend anyone, a lot of what I say should be taken with a grain of salt... that said for most of you I'm a stranger on a computer on the other side of the world, don't give me that sort of power!
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    your move now wrote:
    Death isn't a punishment though...
    The purpose of the justice system consists of 4 main points
    1) punishment
    2) Rehabilitation
    3) Protection of Society
    4) Warn off other potential offenders.

    Without going into all of the ethical (and possibly opinion based reasons, not to mention the fact that it is very rare to have all of the relevant information relating to a case) the death penalty serves only the protection of society from the offender.
    Death is easy and once youre gone it has zero effect on you
    Obviously you can't rehab a dead person :roll:
    And again for other potential offenders death is easy and depending on the crime many may be willing to die for it in this day and age...

    Except it doesn't work as a deterrent. Therefore it's just blood lust.
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    lukin2006 wrote:
    The people I'm referring about has done something a little worse than bad. They are monsters.

    again ... look at my ptsd example ... war veterans coming home and going postal ... no empathy for them either!?

    you think these people become "monsters" by choice?
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    now there is a debate relating to Capital Punishment...

    is anyone ever born evil or do they only become evil from abuse and mental defect?
    In either case are they responsible for heinous crimes?

    And the idea of evil ...
    makes it a force not within a human or perhaps a by product
    of human actions.

    The article speaks to the craving and power felt from killing ...
    if you stand for moment in the killers shoes you can feel this force,
    it is extreme power.

    Just as we can feel love in our Mothers arms, that is also an extreme power
    that can last a lifetime

    for those lucky enough to have had loving Mothers.
  • lukin2006
    lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    polaris_x wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    The people I'm referring about has done something a little worse than bad. They are monsters.

    again ... look at my ptsd example ... war veterans coming home and going postal ... no empathy for them either!?

    you think these people become "monsters" by choice?

    All I'm saying is that I'd no problem with capital punishment, if it eliminated the Paul Bernardo's. Williams, Clifford Olson of the world...these monsters are 100% guilty...
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • Monster Rain
    Monster Rain Posts: 1,415
    A war vet with PTSD would probably be able to plead insanity and wind up in a mental health facility instead of being on death row unless it could be proven that PTSD had nothing to do with his/her actions. That's not the same as someone who plans out his wife's murder and carries through with it, for example.
    polaris_x wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    The people I'm referring about has done something a little worse than bad. They are monsters.

    again ... look at my ptsd example ... war veterans coming home and going postal ... no empathy for them either!?

    you think these people become "monsters" by choice?
  • lukin2006
    lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    Monster Rain wrote:
    A war vet with PTSD would probably be able to plead insanity and wind up in a mental health facility instead of being on death row unless it could be proven that PTSD had nothing to do with his/her actions. That's not the same as someone who plans out his wife's murder and carries through with it, for example.
    polaris_x wrote:
    lukin2006 wrote:
    The people I'm referring about has done something a little worse than bad. They are monsters.

    again ... look at my ptsd example ... war veterans coming home and going postal ... no empathy for them either!?

    you think these people become "monsters" by choice?

    I agree...
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Monster Rain wrote:
    A war vet with PTSD would probably be able to plead insanity and wind up in a mental health facility instead of being on death row unless it could be proven that PTSD had nothing to do with his/her actions. That's not the same as someone who plans out his wife's murder and carries through with it, for example.

    i think you miss the point of the discussion associated with ptsd ... the point is simply that our goal should be to not have serial killers ... if being abused as a child can lead to psychological scarring that turns someone into a serial killer - why wouldn't we do something to address that?

    focusing on just killing a person doesn't prevent the next person who comes along ...
  • chadwick
    chadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    these death penalty threads are pretty much ... never mind.

    this place makes me laugh and cry at the same time. they close my one very old and very full poetry thread on instant thoughts and say it is all over the all encompassing trip section and doesn't need to be in here (the poetry section.), this instant thought crap. but is the all encompassing trip the god damn poetry section? fuck no it isn't. yet 15 or 7 death penalty threads are alive and well. fucking stupid.

    insane really.

    and i am for the death penalty btw. just to keep things on topic here. did they smoke those two horrible lowlives yet out east, those two that killed the doctor's family? fry fuckers. that'll be 2 less monsters walking amongst us.
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."
    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    lukin2006 wrote:
    I agree...

    :lol:
  • Monster Rain
    Monster Rain Posts: 1,415
    Ther are things in place to try to help people before they get to the point of being a killer. There are guidance counselers and child psychologists in schools, there are laws that require teachers and school administrators to report any suspected abuse, there are peer groups and anonymous organizations out there, there are hotlines to call, there are mental health professionals, there are mental health facilities, and there is medication.
    polaris_x wrote:
    Monster Rain wrote:
    A war vet with PTSD would probably be able to plead insanity and wind up in a mental health facility instead of being on death row unless it could be proven that PTSD had nothing to do with his/her actions. That's not the same as someone who plans out his wife's murder and carries through with it, for example.

    i think you miss the point of the discussion associated with ptsd ... the point is simply that our goal should be to not have serial killers ... if being abused as a child can lead to psychological scarring that turns someone into a serial killer - why wouldn't we do something to address that?

    focusing on just killing a person doesn't prevent the next person who comes along ...
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Monster Rain wrote:
    Ther are things in place to try to help people before they get to the point of being a killer. There are guidance counselers and child psychologists in schools, there are laws that require teachers and school administrators to report any suspected abuse, there are peer groups and anonymous organizations out there, there are hotlines to call, there are mental health professionals, there are mental health facilities, and there is medication.

    ok!??

    what's your point?
  • Monster Rain
    Monster Rain Posts: 1,415
    You questioned why we don't do something to address the psychological problems abuse can cause a child. My point is that we do have systems in place to address those things.

    We also have things built into the justice system that allow the defense, prosecution, and jurors to consider the defendant's state of mind. If it can be shown that someone is insane and incapable of understanding right and wrong, then the defendant can plead not guilty by reason of insanity and the jury will be presented evidence to consider that allows them to find the defendant not guilty. The prosecutors can recommend a plea deal if they believe the defendant is legitimately insane. In all of those cases, the defendant would wind up in a mental hospital instead of on death row.
    polaris_x wrote:
    Monster Rain wrote:
    Ther are things in place to try to help people before they get to the point of being a killer. There are guidance counselers and child psychologists in schools, there are laws that require teachers and school administrators to report any suspected abuse, there are peer groups and anonymous organizations out there, there are hotlines to call, there are mental health professionals, there are mental health facilities, and there is medication.

    ok!??

    what's your point?
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    Monster Rain wrote:
    You questioned why we don't do something to address the psychological problems abuse can cause a child. My point is that we do have systems in place to address those things.

    We also have things built into the justice system that allow the defense, prosecution, and jurors to consider the defendant's state of mind. If it can be shown that someone is insane and incapable of understanding right and wrong, then the defendant can plead not guilty by reason of insanity and the jury will be presented evidence to consider that allows them to find the defendant not guilty. The prosecutors can recommend a plea deal if they believe the defendant is legitimately insane. In all of those cases, the defendant would wind up in a mental hospital instead of on death row.

    that was just the subtext ... the conversation with lukin2006 was about empathy for the murderer ... he said he has not empathy for anyone who murders even if they were abused as a child ... i used ptsd as another example of something shaping a person's behaviour ...

    yes ... there are things in place but by that token - there shouldn't be anyone illiterate in america either right? ... especially when you consider the social services in the US - many people will fall through the crack ...

    either way - we've somewhat derailed the thread ...

    what it boils down to is whether you see killing someone a justifiable form of punishment and whether it, as a state-sponsored act, is beneficial to society as a whole ...
  • lukin2006
    lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    polaris_x wrote:
    Monster Rain wrote:
    You questioned why we don't do something to address the psychological problems abuse can cause a child. My point is that we do have systems in place to address those things.

    We also have things built into the justice system that allow the defense, prosecution, and jurors to consider the defendant's state of mind. If it can be shown that someone is insane and incapable of understanding right and wrong, then the defendant can plead not guilty by reason of insanity and the jury will be presented evidence to consider that allows them to find the defendant not guilty. The prosecutors can recommend a plea deal if they believe the defendant is legitimately insane. In all of those cases, the defendant would wind up in a mental hospital instead of on death row.

    that was just the subtext ... the conversation with lukin2006 was about empathy for the murderer ... he said he has not empathy for anyone who murders even if they were abused as a child ... i used ptsd as another example of something shaping a person's behaviour ...

    yes ... there are things in place but by that token - there shouldn't be anyone illiterate in america either right? ... especially when you consider the social services in the US - many people will fall through the crack ...

    either way - we've somewhat derailed the thread ...

    what it boils down to is whether you see killing someone a justifiable form of punishment and whether it, as a state-sponsored act, is beneficial to society as a whole ...

    I'm not going to have empathy for those folks you are referring, but I'm not for the death penalty for the folks anyways. I'm for the death penalty for the Bernardo's, the Williams, Olson and the like and for the dude in the national post article because he choose to keep killing even while in jail.
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • lukin2006
    lukin2006 Posts: 9,087
    I don't recall hearing in the case of Bernardo or Williams or Olson their lawyers bringing up PTSD, child abuse or the lack of after school programs...I do recall hearing them referred to as psychopaths...so now should we have empathy for psychopaths?
    I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin

    "Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    lukin2006 wrote:
    I'm not going to have empathy for those folks you are referring, but I'm not for the death penalty for the folks anyways. I'm for the death penalty for the Bernardo's, the Williams, Olson and the like and for the dude in the national post article because he choose to keep killing even while in jail.

    you either have the death penalty or you don't ...
  • polaris_x
    polaris_x Posts: 13,559
    lukin2006 wrote:
    I don't recall hearing in the case of Bernardo or Williams or Olson their lawyers bringing up PTSD, child abuse or the lack of after school programs...I do recall hearing them referred to as psychopaths...so now should we have empathy for psychopaths?

    is that pun intended? ... :lol:

    you do know that psychopathy is a mental disorder right? ... you are essentially describing the same thing ...

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