Well then I think you are batshit crazy on this topic.
Sure. And Albert Camus is an idiot, right?
sorry Byrnzie. I am with you being against capital punishment. but claiming that being on death row is worse than being the victim of a crime? that's taking it too far.
you cannot justify that statement in my eyes.
I'm against the death penalty for the benefit of humanity, not because I feel bad for the accused.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Well then I think you are batshit crazy on this topic.
Sure. And Albert Camus is an idiot, right?
sorry Byrnzie. I am with you being against capital punishment. but claiming that being on death row is worse than being the victim of a crime? that's taking it too far.
you cannot justify that statement in my eyes.
I'm against the death penalty for the benefit of humanity, not because I feel bad for the accused.
I didn't say I felt bad for the accused either. My attitude to this isn't based solely on any concern I may have for the accused. It seems that you and Cincey don't understand that. Maybe reading my previous posts in this thread would have helped avoid any confusion.
Being told the exact date of your execution months, or even years, in advance, and then being snuffed out by the state in a clinical administrative process that cloaks itself in the name of 'justice' and 'the law', is worse than a situation lasting, in the majority of cases, a few minutes, and where death is not a certainty. It's worse not just in relation to the person who's life is due to be extinguished, but because it pretends to be carried out on behalf of civilized people with morality on their side. It reeks of hypocrisy and arrogance.
I'm not downgrading or trivializing the savagery of any rape or murder, but just looking at these things in context. As far as I'm concerned, capital punishment is more despicable because at least the average murderer has the excuse of insanity, temporary, or otherwise, on his side.
What's more contemptible? A crime carried out in the heat of the moment by a person, or persons, who may or may not be intoxicated, and/or mentally ill, or a murder carried out under strictly controlled conditions, pre-meditated by months or years, in the name of the law, and with the blessing of the Church, but which is actually nothing more than ritualistic revenge killing?
From Reflections on the Guillotine - Albert Camus:
'it adds to death a rule, a public premeditation known to the future victim, an organization, in short, which is in itself a source of moral sufferings more terrible than death. Hence there is no equivalence. Many laws consider a premeditated crime more serious than a crime of pure violence. But what then is capital punishment but the most premeditated of murders, to which no criminal's deed, however calculated it may be, can be compared?
For there to be equivalence, the death penalty would have to punish a criminal who had warned his victim of the date at which he would inflict a horrible death on him and who, from that moment onward, had confined him to his mercy for months. Such a monster is not encountered in private life.
I love that attempt at making the murderer some kind of a victim.
And obviously this idiot isn't aware of what some of these monsters have done. There are plenty of monsters like that in private life.
I'm against the death penalty right up until I read the latest heinous act perpetrated against babies, toddlers, children -- the innocent little lives dependent on us for protection. When DNA, circumstantial and eye witness are all 100% conclusive then I'd guess it should be up to the family at least -- not the government. A new class-type might clear this up. Sub-human or not. You either cut the grade or you don't; especially with robots who will look like a human, just 'round the corner. Bottom-line base thought: when I try to visualize what I'd want done if it were my own child -- I'd like to think I'd have enough balls to dispense of the sub-human myself. If we're still willing to embrace the death penalty but call ourselves civilized, then we shouldn't have prison executioners to do the dirty deed. That just opens up a whole new can; the head trip they gotta take just for a paycheck.
From Reflections on the Guillotine - Albert Camus:
'it adds to death a rule, a public premeditation known to the future victim, an organization, in short, which is in itself a source of moral sufferings more terrible than death. Hence there is no equivalence. Many laws consider a premeditated crime more serious than a crime of pure violence. But what then is capital punishment but the most premeditated of murders, to which no criminal's deed, however calculated it may be, can be compared?
For there to be equivalence, the death penalty would have to punish a criminal who had warned his victim of the date at which he would inflict a horrible death on him and who, from that moment onward, had confined him to his mercy for months. Such a monster is not encountered in private life.
I love that attempt at making the murderer some kind of a victim.
And obviously this idiot isn't aware of what some of these monsters have done. There are plenty of monsters like that in private life.
Such as?
Just about everyone that kidnaps someone and tells them "scream and I'll kill ya".
How about all the sleazy bastards running sex rings?
I don't think it's unusual for some of these monsters to constantly tell their victims that they are going to die. If you want I guess I could google them all for you.
Just about everyone that kidnaps someone and tells them "scream and I'll kill ya".
How about all the sleazy bastards running sex rings?
I don't think it's unusual for some of these monsters to constantly tell their victims that they are going to die. If you want I guess I could google them all for you.
Yeah, go on. Google them all for me. Name me all the murderers who have confined their victims for months, or for years, having told them the precise date of their execution.
Just about everyone that kidnaps someone and tells them "scream and I'll kill ya".
How about all the sleazy bastards running sex rings?
I don't think it's unusual for some of these monsters to constantly tell their victims that they are going to die. If you want I guess I could google them all for you.
Yeah, go on. Google them all for me. Name me all the murderers who have confined their victims for months, or for years, having told them the precise date of their execution.
What is the difference, days, months, years? Its the fear of knowing that some monster is going to kill you and it could happen at any moment.
I know you have many other reasons for being against the death penalty, and a lot of good points. But this angle is just awful and I'm surprised you are even trying to defend it. It just absurd.
There are plenty of monsters like that in private life.
So go ahead and provide some examples of 'plenty of monsters' that have imprisoned their victims for months, or years, and told them the precise day that they will be killed.
What is the difference, days, months, years? Its the fear of knowing that some monster is going to kill you and it could happen at any moment.
I know you have many other reasons for being against the death penalty, and a lot of good points. But this angle is just awful and I'm surprised you are even trying to defend it. It just absurd.
Also, why do you keep using the word 'monster'? Is that an attempt to pretend that they're not people?
There are plenty of monsters like that in private life.
So go ahead and provide some examples of 'plenty of monsters' that have imprisoned their victims for months, or years, and told them the precise day that they will be killed.
The only difference is their victims know they could be killed at any moment over the time they are held in captivity.
As I said, sex rings are a great example. Lots of monsters out their. And really you are just deflecting because your argument that the poor killer on death row has some mental anguish and it's worse then any of the victims is right up there with the most ridiculous things I've read on this board.
What is the difference, days, months, years? Its the fear of knowing that some monster is going to kill you and it could happen at any moment.
I know you have many other reasons for being against the death penalty, and a lot of good points. But this angle is just awful and I'm surprised you are even trying to defend it. It just absurd.
Also, why do you keep using the word 'monster'? Is that an attempt to pretend that they're not people?
Honestly, as I said, I respect your opinion on the topic as a whole but not at all on the current argument. I use the word monster because that is what they are. Of course they are human beings, but that just biology.
I'm going to refrain from posting anymore before I get myself into trouble here. See ya around on other topics.
The only difference is their victims know they could be killed at any moment over the time they are held in captivity.
As I said, sex rings are a great example. Lots of monsters out their. And really you are just deflecting because your argument that the poor killer on death row has some mental anguish and it's worse then any of the victims is right up there with the most ridiculous things I've read on this board.
How are sex rings a great example? Do the girls involved in sex rings get murdered on a prescribed date? In fact, do any of them get murdered? I'm not sure there's much money to be made from dead prostitutes. Not really a great example, is it.
As for deflecting, I asked you to provide an example of a case where someone was imprisoned for months or years having been told the exact date of their execution. You replied that Albert Camus was an idiot and that there are plenty of monsters like that in the World. Yet when pressed on it you've failed to produce even one example, and instead start harping on about sex rings.
The only difference is their victims know they could be killed at any moment over the time they are held in captivity.
As I said, sex rings are a great example. Lots of monsters out their. And really you are just deflecting because your argument that the poor killer on death row has some mental anguish and it's worse then any of the victims is right up there with the most ridiculous things I've read on this board.
How are sex rings a great example? Do the girls involved in sex rings get murdered on a prescribed date? In fact, do any of them get murdered? I'm not sure there's much money to be made from dead prostitutes. Not really a great example, is it.
As for deflecting, I asked you to provide an example of a case where someone was imprisoned for months or years having been told the exact date of their execution. You replied that Albert Camus was an idiot and that there are plenty of monsters like that in the World. Yet when pressed on it you've failed to produce even one example, and instead start harping on about sex rings.
I'll come back in. My friends and I had a discussion regarding whether or not you'd like to 'go out' quickly or really slowly. Opinions differed, but I'll tell you that I opted for the slow process. It would give me time to get my things and thoughts in order as well as come to terms with death. I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this... the 'poor poor murderer' who, while waiting on death row for snuffing out a family (I'll stick with the one example I have used to this point) that has to wait a few years before his exact date has the benefit of getting his things and thoughts in order as well as accept his fate.
The victims (let's say the girls I used in previous accidents) who's thoughts are no doubtedly chaotic, tense, and terror-ridden in a manner which could never be imagined cannot say goodbye to their loved ones one last time. My example isn't a good one for this because who were the girls going to say goodbye to? Their parents and grandparents were murdered just prior to their captivity. Regardless, there are countless other similar victims that would likely endure even more pain and suffering while in bondage and being raped if they could just give their mom and dad a big hug and say goodbye.
Byrnzie... I am actually surprised with your stubborness on this particular point. When I am wrong... I admit it. I apologized to Pandora for being wrong a couple of weeks back on this forum. I was wrong and I knew it- I didn't hold fast to a notion that was failing me. You need to give this one up. Your ideals regarding the general topic you opened for discussion are fine, but this particular argument that you have chose to defend is ludicrous and it actually makes the rest of your argument somewhat weaker.
From my perspective, comparing the time a murderous fiend spends on death row who is there by his own account as the same- and you said even worse- than the briefer time some small innocent victim experiences at the hands of a cold, depraved, sadistic psychopath is nonsense.
I'll come back in. My friends and I had a discussion regarding whether or not you'd like to 'go out' quickly or really slowly. Opinions differed, but I'll tell you that I opted for the slow process. It would give me time to get my things and thoughts in order as well as come to terms with death. I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this... the 'poor poor murderer' who, while waiting on death row for snuffing out a family (I'll stick with the one example I have used to this point) that has to wait a few years before his exact date has the benefit of getting his things and thoughts in order as well as accept his fate.
The victims (let's say the girls I used in previous accidents) who's thoughts are no doubtedly chaotic, tense, and terror-ridden in a manner which could never be imagined cannot say goodbye to their loved ones one last time. My example isn't a good one for this because who were the girls going to say goodbye to? Their parents and grandparents were murdered just prior to their captivity. Regardless, there are countless other similar victims that would likely endure even more pain and suffering while in bondage and being raped if they could just give their mom and dad a big hug and say goodbye.
Byrnzie... I am actually surprised with your stubborness on this particular point. When I am wrong... I admit it. I apologized to Pandora for being wrong a couple of weeks back on this forum. I was wrong and I knew it- I didn't hold fast to a notion that was failing me. You need to give this one up. Your ideals regarding the general topic you opened for discussion are fine, but this particular argument that you have chose to defend is ludicrous and it actually makes the rest of your argument somewhat weaker.
From my perspective, comparing the time a murderous fiend spends on death row who is there by his own account as the same- and you said even worse- than the briefer time some small innocent victim experiences at the hands of a cold, depraved, sadistic psychopath is nonsense.
So he's a 'poor poor murderer' now is he? You have a very vivid imagination.
And there was more to my point than the murderer being in a worse situation than the victim. But then who am I to deprive anyone of the need to twist and cherry-pick my words?
I'll come back in. My friends and I had a discussion regarding whether or not you'd like to 'go out' quickly or really slowly. Opinions differed, but I'll tell you that I opted for the slow process. It would give me time to get my things and thoughts in order as well as come to terms with death. I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this... the 'poor poor murderer' who, while waiting on death row for snuffing out a family (I'll stick with the one example I have used to this point) that has to wait a few years before his exact date has the benefit of getting his things and thoughts in order as well as accept his fate.
The victims (let's say the girls I used in previous accidents) who's thoughts are no doubtedly chaotic, tense, and terror-ridden in a manner which could never be imagined cannot say goodbye to their loved ones one last time. My example isn't a good one for this because who were the girls going to say goodbye to? Their parents and grandparents were murdered just prior to their captivity. Regardless, there are countless other similar victims that would likely endure even more pain and suffering while in bondage and being raped if they could just give their mom and dad a big hug and say goodbye.
Byrnzie... I am actually surprised with your stubborness on this particular point. When I am wrong... I admit it. I apologized to Pandora for being wrong a couple of weeks back on this forum. I was wrong and I knew it- I didn't hold fast to a notion that was failing me. You need to give this one up. Your ideals regarding the general topic you opened for discussion are fine, but this particular argument that you have chose to defend is ludicrous and it actually makes the rest of your argument somewhat weaker.
From my perspective, comparing the time a murderous fiend spends on death row who is there by his own account as the same- and you said even worse- than the briefer time some small innocent victim experiences at the hands of a cold, depraved, sadistic psychopath is nonsense.
So he's a 'poor poor murderer' now is he? You have a very vivid imagination.
And there was more to my point than the murderer being in a worse situation than the victim. But then who am I to deprive anyone of the need to twist and cherry-pick my words?
This response sounds as if you are trying to... what were the words you used towards Cincy... wriggle out of this?
I never twisted your words. Although most of your posts are filled with other people's words in the form of quotations, go back and read what you did say. In the context of your argument, you boldly posed two questions to me that at the very least reflected a slight indifference to the girls' plight as it compared to a death row inmate's. If you can't be bothered... here they are:
"Firstly, how do you know those girls were certain that they were going to be killed?
Secondly, how does being told of the exact date of your 'execution' months, or even years beforehand, compare to a situation lasting a couple of days in which survival - escape, or rescue - is still a possibility?"
The second question very clearly implies that sitting on death row is not as favourable as being at the hands of your captor given that you might be able to escape and that it's also for not as long a time. To which I have said is nonsense (for the reasons I gave).
Sorry to break it you, but you are in no position to decide the fate of anybody on this Earth. And there's a reason the U.S is the only developed country in the Western World that has Capital Punishment.
Most countries see it for what it is: barbaric and pointless.
I never twisted your words. Although most of your posts are filled with other people's words in the form of quotations, go back and read what you did say. In the context of your argument, you boldly posed two questions to me that at the very least reflected a slight indifference to the girls' plight as it compared to a death row inmate's. If you can't be bothered... here they are:
"Firstly, how do you know those girls were certain that they were going to be killed?
Secondly, how does being told of the exact date of your 'execution' months, or even years beforehand, compare to a situation lasting a couple of days in which survival - escape, or rescue - is still a possibility?"
The second question very clearly implies that sitting on death row is not as favourable as being at the hands of your captor given that you might be able to escape and that it's also for not as long a time. To which I have said is nonsense (for the reasons I gave).
And I really couldn't care less if you think it's nonsense. I really don't put too much stock in the opinions of people who support murder.
Anyway, here's what I said, for purposes of clarification:
Being told the exact date of your execution months, or even years, in advance, and then being snuffed out by the state in a clinical administrative process that cloaks itself in the name of 'justice' and 'the law', is worse than a situation lasting, in the majority of cases, a few minutes, and where death is not a certainty. It's worse not just in relation to the person who's life is due to be extinguished, but because it pretends to be carried out on behalf of civilized people with morality on their side. It reeks of hypocrisy and arrogance.
I'm not downgrading or trivializing the savagery of any rape or murder, but just looking at these things in context. As far as I'm concerned, capital punishment is more despicable because at least the average murderer has the excuse of insanity, temporary, or otherwise, on his side.
What's more contemptible? A crime carried out in the heat of the moment by a person, or persons, who may or may not be intoxicated, and/or mentally ill, or a murder carried out under strictly controlled conditions, pre-meditated by months or years, in the name of the law, and with the blessing of the Church, but which is actually nothing more than ritualistic revenge killing?
Being told the exact date of your execution months, or even years, in advance, and then being snuffed out by the state in a clinical administrative process that cloaks itself in the name of 'justice' and 'the law', is worse than a situation lasting, in the majority of cases, a few minutes, and where death is not a certainty. It's worse not just in relation to the person who's life is due to be extinguished, but because it pretends to be carried out on behalf of civilized people with morality on their side. It reeks of hypocrisy and arrogance.
ok, maybe I'm misunderstanding your point. So let me ask for clarification:I originally thought that you were saying it was worse for the executed than it was for the murdered. Are you actually saying that it's worse to be the executor than the murderer?
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Being told the exact date of your execution months, or even years, in advance, and then being snuffed out by the state in a clinical administrative process that cloaks itself in the name of 'justice' and 'the law', is worse than a situation lasting, in the majority of cases, a few minutes, and where death is not a certainty. It's worse not just in relation to the person who's life is due to be extinguished, but because it pretends to be carried out on behalf of civilized people with morality on their side. It reeks of hypocrisy and arrogance.
ok, maybe I'm misunderstanding your point. So let me ask for clarification:I originally thought that you were saying it was worse for the executed than it was for the murdered. Are you actually saying that it's worse to be the executor than the murderer?
I believe it's worse for all the reasons I listed. I also believe that the existence of the death penalty teaches people that murder is a solution, and that it effects the level of violence in that same society.
The death penalty serves no purpose whatsoever other than the fulfillment of blood-lust. It does not work as a deterrent, therefore it's revenge, pure and simple. And what sort of society should function on the level of vengeance and blood-lust? Should not any just society place itself on a higher moral footing than that of rapists and murderers? Is it not the test of any society to not allow itself to sink to the same level as those it condemns - even those guilty of the most savage of crimes?
According to a 2011 study published in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, eighty-eight percent of the country’s top criminologists do not believe the death penalty acts as a deterrent.
http://deathpenaltycurriculum.org/stude ... ment1b.htm
'...some criminologists, such as William Bowers of Northeastern University, maintain that the death penalty has the opposite effect: that is, society is brutalized by the use of the death penalty, and this increases the likelihood of more murder. States in the United States that do not employ the death penalty generally have lower murder rates than states that do. The same is true when the U.S. is compared to countries similar to it. The U.S., with the death penalty, has a higher murder rate than the countries of Europe or Canada, which do not use the death penalty. The death penalty is not a deterrent because most people who commit murders either do not expect to be caught or do not carefully weigh the differences between a possible execution and life in prison before they act. Frequently, murders are committed in moments of passion or anger, or by criminals who are substance abusers and acted impulsively.'
I never twisted your words. Although most of your posts are filled with other people's words in the form of quotations, go back and read what you did say. In the context of your argument, you boldly posed two questions to me that at the very least reflected a slight indifference to the girls' plight as it compared to a death row inmate's. If you can't be bothered... here they are:
"Firstly, how do you know those girls were certain that they were going to be killed?
Secondly, how does being told of the exact date of your 'execution' months, or even years beforehand, compare to a situation lasting a couple of days in which survival - escape, or rescue - is still a possibility?"
The second question very clearly implies that sitting on death row is not as favourable as being at the hands of your captor given that you might be able to escape and that it's also for not as long a time. To which I have said is nonsense (for the reasons I gave).
And I really couldn't care less if you think it's nonsense. I really don't put too much stock in the opinions of people who support murder.
Anyway, here's what I said, for purposes of clarification:
Being told the exact date of your execution months, or even years, in advance, and then being snuffed out by the state in a clinical administrative process that cloaks itself in the name of 'justice' and 'the law', is worse than a situation lasting, in the majority of cases, a few minutes, and where death is not a certainty. It's worse not just in relation to the person who's life is due to be extinguished, but because it pretends to be carried out on behalf of civilized people with morality on their side. It reeks of hypocrisy and arrogance.
I'm not downgrading or trivializing the savagery of any rape or murder, but just looking at these things in context. As far as I'm concerned, capital punishment is more despicable because at least the average murderer has the excuse of insanity, temporary, or otherwise, on his side.
What's more contemptible? A crime carried out in the heat of the moment by a person, or persons, who may or may not be intoxicated, and/or mentally ill, or a murder carried out under strictly controlled conditions, pre-meditated by months or years, in the name of the law, and with the blessing of the Church, but which is actually nothing more than ritualistic revenge killing?
Wait a minute. I don't support murder. I support justice. If forced to deal with murder... your method of justice differs from mine and we agreed to disagree on this. There are plenty smarter than us who feel the same as I Byrnzie. There can be opposing views without one necessarily being right. When you place a definitive statement that completely dismisses an alternative point of view... it will be challenged.
Opposing viewpoints aside, what we continue to discuss is the proposition you put forth that a death row inmate's existence is comparable (correction... worse) to that of their victim's last moments at the hands of their murderer. You said it. You kind of denied you said it when you suggested I twisted your words and took things out of context. And now you have clearly said it again in your last clarification:
Being told the exact date of your execution months, or even years, in advance, and then being snuffed out by the state in a clinical administrative process that cloaks itself in the name of 'justice' and 'the law', is worse than a situation lasting, in the majority of cases, a few minutes, and where death is not a certainty.
Gagged, bound, bleeding, sexually assaulted, under the knife and waiting for the death blow for a brief time is far, far worse than solitary confinement with meals, newspapers, and crossword puzzles while waiting for the death blow. Get serious, man.
We'll need to agree to disagree on this as well. I think that a murder victim's plight is infinitely worse than that of a death row's plight for reasons already given. As stated, you think the opposite.
Opposing viewpoints aside, what we continue to discuss is the proposition you put forth that a death row inmate's existence is comparable (correction... worse) to that of their victim's last moments at the hands of their murderer. You said it. You kind of denied you said it when you suggested I twisted your words and took things out of context. And now you have clearly said it again in your last clarification:
Being told the exact date of your execution months, or even years, in advance, and then being snuffed out by the state in a clinical administrative process that cloaks itself in the name of 'justice' and 'the law', is worse than a situation lasting, in the majority of cases, a few minutes, and where death is not a certainty.
Gagged, bound, bleeding, sexually assaulted, under the knife and waiting for the death blow for a brief time is far, far worse than solitary confinement with meals, newspapers, and crossword puzzles while waiting for the death blow. Get serious, man.
We'll need to agree to disagree on this as well. I think that a murder victim's plight is infinitely worse than that of a death row's plight for reasons already given. As stated, you think the opposite.
No, not exactly. Why did you post just the first sentence from my 'clarification'? Why didn't you address it in it's entirety? You keep harping on about how I feel the plight of the prisoner on death row is worse than his victim, without taking into account the full context of my statements on that subject. Why is that? Why cherry-pick my words?
Here's what I said, again, in full:
Being told the exact date of your execution months, or even years, in advance, and then being snuffed out by the state in a clinical administrative process that cloaks itself in the name of 'justice' and 'the law', is worse than a situation lasting, in the majority of cases, a few minutes, and where death is not a certainty. It's worse not just in relation to the person who's life is due to be extinguished, but because it pretends to be carried out on behalf of civilized people with morality on their side. It reeks of hypocrisy and arrogance.
I'm not downgrading or trivializing the savagery of any rape or murder, but just looking at these things in context. As far as I'm concerned, capital punishment is more despicable because at least the average murderer has the excuse of insanity, temporary, or otherwise, on his side.
What's more contemptible? A crime carried out in the heat of the moment by a person, or persons, who may or may not be intoxicated, and/or mentally ill, or a murder carried out under strictly controlled conditions, pre-meditated by months or years, in the name of the law, and with the blessing of the Church, but which is actually nothing more than ritualistic revenge killing?
Wait a minute. I don't support murder. I support justice. If forced to deal with murder... your method of justice differs from mine and we agreed to disagree on this. There are plenty smarter than us who feel the same as I Byrnzie. There can be opposing views without one necessarily being right. When you place a definitive statement that completely dismisses an alternative point of view... it will be challenged.
Opposing viewpoints aside, what we continue to discuss is the proposition you put forth that a death row inmate's existence is comparable (correction... worse) to that of their victim's last moments at the hands of their murderer. You said it. You kind of denied you said it when you suggested I twisted your words and took things out of context. And now you have clearly said it again in your last clarification:
Being told the exact date of your execution months, or even years, in advance, and then being snuffed out by the state in a clinical administrative process that cloaks itself in the name of 'justice' and 'the law', is worse than a situation lasting, in the majority of cases, a few minutes, and where death is not a certainty.
Gagged, bound, bleeding, sexually assaulted, under the knife and waiting for the death blow for a brief time is far, far worse than solitary confinement with meals, newspapers, and crossword puzzles while waiting for the death blow. Get serious, man.
We'll need to agree to disagree on this as well. I think that a murder victim's plight is infinitely worse than that of a death row's plight for reasons already given. As stated, you think the opposite.
What's your opinion on the following statistics?:
The number of whites executed is 57%, compared with 34% of blacks, though African Americans are 12 percent of the U.S. population, but 42 percent of prisoners on death row.
In Pennsylvania, Louisiana and Maryland, and in the U.S. military and federal system, more than 60 percent of those on death row are Black; Virginia, Arkansas, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina and Ohio all have death rows where more than 50 percent are African American. Although Blacks constitute approximately 50 percent of murder victims each year, 80 percent of the victims in death penalty cases were white, and only 14 percent were Black.
Also, of the over 18,000 executions that have taken place in this country’s history, only 42 involved a white person being punished for killing a Black person.
Comments
Sure. And Albert Camus is an idiot, right?
sorry Byrnzie. I am with you being against capital punishment. but claiming that being on death row is worse than being the victim of a crime? that's taking it too far.
you cannot justify that statement in my eyes.
I'm against the death penalty for the benefit of humanity, not because I feel bad for the accused.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I didn't say I felt bad for the accused either. My attitude to this isn't based solely on any concern I may have for the accused. It seems that you and Cincey don't understand that. Maybe reading my previous posts in this thread would have helped avoid any confusion.
Being told the exact date of your execution months, or even years, in advance, and then being snuffed out by the state in a clinical administrative process that cloaks itself in the name of 'justice' and 'the law', is worse than a situation lasting, in the majority of cases, a few minutes, and where death is not a certainty. It's worse not just in relation to the person who's life is due to be extinguished, but because it pretends to be carried out on behalf of civilized people with morality on their side. It reeks of hypocrisy and arrogance.
I'm not downgrading or trivializing the savagery of any rape or murder, but just looking at these things in context. As far as I'm concerned, capital punishment is more despicable because at least the average murderer has the excuse of insanity, temporary, or otherwise, on his side.
What's more contemptible? A crime carried out in the heat of the moment by a person, or persons, who may or may not be intoxicated, and/or mentally ill, or a murder carried out under strictly controlled conditions, pre-meditated by months or years, in the name of the law, and with the blessing of the Church, but which is actually nothing more than ritualistic revenge killing?
Such as?
Just about everyone that kidnaps someone and tells them "scream and I'll kill ya".
How about all the sleazy bastards running sex rings?
I don't think it's unusual for some of these monsters to constantly tell their victims that they are going to die. If you want I guess I could google them all for you.
Yeah, go on. Google them all for me. Name me all the murderers who have confined their victims for months, or for years, having told them the precise date of their execution.
What is the difference, days, months, years? Its the fear of knowing that some monster is going to kill you and it could happen at any moment.
I know you have many other reasons for being against the death penalty, and a lot of good points. But this angle is just awful and I'm surprised you are even trying to defend it. It just absurd.
Trying to wriggle out if it now, are we?
This is what you said:
So go ahead and provide some examples of 'plenty of monsters' that have imprisoned their victims for months, or years, and told them the precise day that they will be killed.
Also, why do you keep using the word 'monster'? Is that an attempt to pretend that they're not people?
Those soldiers in Haditha who murdered 24 unarmed civilians in cold blood - were they monsters too? Or is there a difference? http://www.usatoday.com/news/military/s ... 52778126/1
The only difference is their victims know they could be killed at any moment over the time they are held in captivity.
As I said, sex rings are a great example. Lots of monsters out their. And really you are just deflecting because your argument that the poor killer on death row has some mental anguish and it's worse then any of the victims is right up there with the most ridiculous things I've read on this board.
Honestly, as I said, I respect your opinion on the topic as a whole but not at all on the current argument. I use the word monster because that is what they are. Of course they are human beings, but that just biology.
I'm going to refrain from posting anymore before I get myself into trouble here. See ya around on other topics.
How are sex rings a great example? Do the girls involved in sex rings get murdered on a prescribed date? In fact, do any of them get murdered? I'm not sure there's much money to be made from dead prostitutes. Not really a great example, is it.
As for deflecting, I asked you to provide an example of a case where someone was imprisoned for months or years having been told the exact date of their execution. You replied that Albert Camus was an idiot and that there are plenty of monsters like that in the World. Yet when pressed on it you've failed to produce even one example, and instead start harping on about sex rings.
I'll come back in. My friends and I had a discussion regarding whether or not you'd like to 'go out' quickly or really slowly. Opinions differed, but I'll tell you that I opted for the slow process. It would give me time to get my things and thoughts in order as well as come to terms with death. I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this... the 'poor poor murderer' who, while waiting on death row for snuffing out a family (I'll stick with the one example I have used to this point) that has to wait a few years before his exact date has the benefit of getting his things and thoughts in order as well as accept his fate.
The victims (let's say the girls I used in previous accidents) who's thoughts are no doubtedly chaotic, tense, and terror-ridden in a manner which could never be imagined cannot say goodbye to their loved ones one last time. My example isn't a good one for this because who were the girls going to say goodbye to? Their parents and grandparents were murdered just prior to their captivity. Regardless, there are countless other similar victims that would likely endure even more pain and suffering while in bondage and being raped if they could just give their mom and dad a big hug and say goodbye.
Byrnzie... I am actually surprised with your stubborness on this particular point. When I am wrong... I admit it. I apologized to Pandora for being wrong a couple of weeks back on this forum. I was wrong and I knew it- I didn't hold fast to a notion that was failing me. You need to give this one up. Your ideals regarding the general topic you opened for discussion are fine, but this particular argument that you have chose to defend is ludicrous and it actually makes the rest of your argument somewhat weaker.
From my perspective, comparing the time a murderous fiend spends on death row who is there by his own account as the same- and you said even worse- than the briefer time some small innocent victim experiences at the hands of a cold, depraved, sadistic psychopath is nonsense.
And hopefully Byrnzie is right. Hopefully they are living each day in agony and complete terror as the hour hand ticks by.
But I suspect they are doing crossword puzzles and watching The View instead.
So he's a 'poor poor murderer' now is he? You have a very vivid imagination.
And there was more to my point than the murderer being in a worse situation than the victim. But then who am I to deprive anyone of the need to twist and cherry-pick my words?
40 years to life ? for abducting ,druging, killing and dismembering a 8 year old boy.....
Godfather.
You can reel off all the examples of heinous crimes you like. Still doesn't justify state-sanctioned revenge killings.
This response sounds as if you are trying to... what were the words you used towards Cincy... wriggle out of this?
I never twisted your words. Although most of your posts are filled with other people's words in the form of quotations, go back and read what you did say. In the context of your argument, you boldly posed two questions to me that at the very least reflected a slight indifference to the girls' plight as it compared to a death row inmate's. If you can't be bothered... here they are:
"Firstly, how do you know those girls were certain that they were going to be killed?
Secondly, how does being told of the exact date of your 'execution' months, or even years beforehand, compare to a situation lasting a couple of days in which survival - escape, or rescue - is still a possibility?"
The second question very clearly implies that sitting on death row is not as favourable as being at the hands of your captor given that you might be able to escape and that it's also for not as long a time. To which I have said is nonsense (for the reasons I gave).
Yes it does.
Once again you assume the role of 'God'.
Sorry to break it you, but you are in no position to decide the fate of anybody on this Earth. And there's a reason the U.S is the only developed country in the Western World that has Capital Punishment.
Most countries see it for what it is: barbaric and pointless.
Nope, I'm not wriggling out of anything.
And I really couldn't care less if you think it's nonsense. I really don't put too much stock in the opinions of people who support murder.
Anyway, here's what I said, for purposes of clarification:
Being told the exact date of your execution months, or even years, in advance, and then being snuffed out by the state in a clinical administrative process that cloaks itself in the name of 'justice' and 'the law', is worse than a situation lasting, in the majority of cases, a few minutes, and where death is not a certainty. It's worse not just in relation to the person who's life is due to be extinguished, but because it pretends to be carried out on behalf of civilized people with morality on their side. It reeks of hypocrisy and arrogance.
I'm not downgrading or trivializing the savagery of any rape or murder, but just looking at these things in context. As far as I'm concerned, capital punishment is more despicable because at least the average murderer has the excuse of insanity, temporary, or otherwise, on his side.
What's more contemptible? A crime carried out in the heat of the moment by a person, or persons, who may or may not be intoxicated, and/or mentally ill, or a murder carried out under strictly controlled conditions, pre-meditated by months or years, in the name of the law, and with the blessing of the Church, but which is actually nothing more than ritualistic revenge killing?
Capital punishment guarantees innocent humans will be put to death.
Is your craving for vengeance worth it?
If so what is an "acceptable" percentage of innocents versus the actual guilty? .05% 1% 2% 5%...? Or does it even matter as long as we feel better?
what is capital punishment?
the adult voice returned...
that is when a person kills another person and then that person is killed
because they killed
quiet, deep in thought, small voice returns ...
that's not right
no, nothing right about that
ok, maybe I'm misunderstanding your point. So let me ask for clarification:I originally thought that you were saying it was worse for the executed than it was for the murdered. Are you actually saying that it's worse to be the executor than the murderer?
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
not a big fan of this statement. you can't respect someone who has a differing opinion than you?
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I believe it's worse for all the reasons I listed. I also believe that the existence of the death penalty teaches people that murder is a solution, and that it effects the level of violence in that same society.
The death penalty serves no purpose whatsoever other than the fulfillment of blood-lust. It does not work as a deterrent, therefore it's revenge, pure and simple. And what sort of society should function on the level of vengeance and blood-lust? Should not any just society place itself on a higher moral footing than that of rapists and murderers? Is it not the test of any society to not allow itself to sink to the same level as those it condemns - even those guilty of the most savage of crimes?
According to a 2011 study published in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, eighty-eight percent of the country’s top criminologists do not believe the death penalty acts as a deterrent.
http://deathpenaltycurriculum.org/stude ... ment1b.htm
'...some criminologists, such as William Bowers of Northeastern University, maintain that the death penalty has the opposite effect: that is, society is brutalized by the use of the death penalty, and this increases the likelihood of more murder. States in the United States that do not employ the death penalty generally have lower murder rates than states that do. The same is true when the U.S. is compared to countries similar to it. The U.S., with the death penalty, has a higher murder rate than the countries of Europe or Canada, which do not use the death penalty. The death penalty is not a deterrent because most people who commit murders either do not expect to be caught or do not carefully weigh the differences between a possible execution and life in prison before they act. Frequently, murders are committed in moments of passion or anger, or by criminals who are substance abusers and acted impulsively.'
Wait a minute. I don't support murder. I support justice. If forced to deal with murder... your method of justice differs from mine and we agreed to disagree on this. There are plenty smarter than us who feel the same as I Byrnzie. There can be opposing views without one necessarily being right. When you place a definitive statement that completely dismisses an alternative point of view... it will be challenged.
Opposing viewpoints aside, what we continue to discuss is the proposition you put forth that a death row inmate's existence is comparable (correction... worse) to that of their victim's last moments at the hands of their murderer. You said it. You kind of denied you said it when you suggested I twisted your words and took things out of context. And now you have clearly said it again in your last clarification:
Being told the exact date of your execution months, or even years, in advance, and then being snuffed out by the state in a clinical administrative process that cloaks itself in the name of 'justice' and 'the law', is worse than a situation lasting, in the majority of cases, a few minutes, and where death is not a certainty.
Gagged, bound, bleeding, sexually assaulted, under the knife and waiting for the death blow for a brief time is far, far worse than solitary confinement with meals, newspapers, and crossword puzzles while waiting for the death blow. Get serious, man.
We'll need to agree to disagree on this as well. I think that a murder victim's plight is infinitely worse than that of a death row's plight for reasons already given. As stated, you think the opposite.
No, not exactly. Why did you post just the first sentence from my 'clarification'? Why didn't you address it in it's entirety? You keep harping on about how I feel the plight of the prisoner on death row is worse than his victim, without taking into account the full context of my statements on that subject. Why is that? Why cherry-pick my words?
Here's what I said, again, in full:
Being told the exact date of your execution months, or even years, in advance, and then being snuffed out by the state in a clinical administrative process that cloaks itself in the name of 'justice' and 'the law', is worse than a situation lasting, in the majority of cases, a few minutes, and where death is not a certainty. It's worse not just in relation to the person who's life is due to be extinguished, but because it pretends to be carried out on behalf of civilized people with morality on their side. It reeks of hypocrisy and arrogance.
I'm not downgrading or trivializing the savagery of any rape or murder, but just looking at these things in context. As far as I'm concerned, capital punishment is more despicable because at least the average murderer has the excuse of insanity, temporary, or otherwise, on his side.
What's more contemptible? A crime carried out in the heat of the moment by a person, or persons, who may or may not be intoxicated, and/or mentally ill, or a murder carried out under strictly controlled conditions, pre-meditated by months or years, in the name of the law, and with the blessing of the Church, but which is actually nothing more than ritualistic revenge killing?
What's your opinion on the following statistics?:
The number of whites executed is 57%, compared with 34% of blacks, though African Americans are 12 percent of the U.S. population, but 42 percent of prisoners on death row.
In Pennsylvania, Louisiana and Maryland, and in the U.S. military and federal system, more than 60 percent of those on death row are Black; Virginia, Arkansas, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina and Ohio all have death rows where more than 50 percent are African American. Although Blacks constitute approximately 50 percent of murder victims each year, 80 percent of the victims in death penalty cases were white, and only 14 percent were Black.
Also, of the over 18,000 executions that have taken place in this country’s history, only 42 involved a white person being punished for killing a Black person.