Opposing viewpoints aside, what we continue to discuss is the proposition you put forth that a death row inmate's existence is comparable (correction... worse) to that of their victim's last moments at the hands of their murderer. You said it. You kind of denied you said it when you suggested I twisted your words and took things out of context. And now you have clearly said it again in your last clarification:
Being told the exact date of your execution months, or even years, in advance, and then being snuffed out by the state in a clinical administrative process that cloaks itself in the name of 'justice' and 'the law', is worse than a situation lasting, in the majority of cases, a few minutes, and where death is not a certainty.
Gagged, bound, bleeding, sexually assaulted, under the knife and waiting for the death blow for a brief time is far, far worse than solitary confinement with meals, newspapers, and crossword puzzles while waiting for the death blow. Get serious, man.
We'll need to agree to disagree on this as well. I think that a murder victim's plight is infinitely worse than that of a death row's plight for reasons already given. As stated, you think the opposite.
No, not exactly. Why did you post just the first sentence from my 'clarification'? Why didn't you address it in it's entirety? You keep harping on about how I feel the plight of the prisoner on death row is worse than his victim, without taking into account the full context of my statements on that subject. Why is that? Why cherry-pick my words?
Here's what I said, again, in full:
Being told the exact date of your execution months, or even years, in advance, and then being snuffed out by the state in a clinical administrative process that cloaks itself in the name of 'justice' and 'the law', is worse than a situation lasting, in the majority of cases, a few minutes, and where death is not a certainty. It's worse not just in relation to the person who's life is due to be extinguished, but because it pretends to be carried out on behalf of civilized people with morality on their side. It reeks of hypocrisy and arrogance.
I'm not downgrading or trivializing the savagery of any rape or murder, but just looking at these things in context. As far as I'm concerned, capital punishment is more despicable because at least the average murderer has the excuse of insanity, temporary, or otherwise, on his side.
What's more contemptible? A crime carried out in the heat of the moment by a person, or persons, who may or may not be intoxicated, and/or mentally ill, or a murder carried out under strictly controlled conditions, pre-meditated by months or years, in the name of the law, and with the blessing of the Church, but which is actually nothing more than ritualistic revenge killing?
The following is the only part I have left out from your statement. I don't think it changes the meaning of what you are trying to say... I think it attempts to 'clarify' your position. I'm not challenging the reasons you have for assuming your position... I'm challenging your position:
It's worse not just in relation to the person who's life is due to be extinguished, but because it pretends to be carried out on behalf of civilized people with morality on their side. It reeks of hypocrisy and arrogance.
So... in review... your position:
Being told the exact date of your execution months, or even years, in advance, and then being snuffed out by the state in a clinical administrative process that cloaks itself in the name of 'justice' and 'the law', is worse than a situation lasting, in the majority of cases, a few minutes, and where death is not a certainty.
And some support for your position:
It's worse not just in relation to the person who's life is due to be extinguished, but because it pretends to be carried out on behalf of civilized people with morality on their side. It reeks of hypocrisy and arrogance.
To which I say it hardly reeks of arrogance and hypocrisy. I would suggest it reflects how we feel about the crime and the criminal and how we offer justice to those that might need this form of justice. Anyways... here we go again recirculating our position on this. We remain opposed. So be it. One last time... your position is fine, but I don't agree with it.
And for the record... your veiled attempts at character assassination have been noted. When one resorts to such tactics... it generally reveals some level of insecurity- either within the argument or within the person. Keep it civil. Just because I haven't responded on a more 'personal' level doesn't mean I am toothless to do so.
Wait a minute. I don't support murder. I support justice. If forced to deal with murder... your method of justice differs from mine and we agreed to disagree on this. There are plenty smarter than us who feel the same as I Byrnzie. There can be opposing views without one necessarily being right. When you place a definitive statement that completely dismisses an alternative point of view... it will be challenged.
Opposing viewpoints aside, what we continue to discuss is the proposition you put forth that a death row inmate's existence is comparable (correction... worse) to that of their victim's last moments at the hands of their murderer. You said it. You kind of denied you said it when you suggested I twisted your words and took things out of context. And now you have clearly said it again in your last clarification:
Being told the exact date of your execution months, or even years, in advance, and then being snuffed out by the state in a clinical administrative process that cloaks itself in the name of 'justice' and 'the law', is worse than a situation lasting, in the majority of cases, a few minutes, and where death is not a certainty.
Gagged, bound, bleeding, sexually assaulted, under the knife and waiting for the death blow for a brief time is far, far worse than solitary confinement with meals, newspapers, and crossword puzzles while waiting for the death blow. Get serious, man.
We'll need to agree to disagree on this as well. I think that a murder victim's plight is infinitely worse than that of a death row's plight for reasons already given. As stated, you think the opposite.
What's your opinion on the following statistics?:
The number of whites executed is 57%, compared with 34% of blacks, though African Americans are 12 percent of the U.S. population, but 42 percent of prisoners on death row.
In Pennsylvania, Louisiana and Maryland, and in the U.S. military and federal system, more than 60 percent of those on death row are Black; Virginia, Arkansas, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina and Ohio all have death rows where more than 50 percent are African American. Although Blacks constitute approximately 50 percent of murder victims each year, 80 percent of the victims in death penalty cases were white, and only 14 percent were Black.
Also, of the over 18,000 executions that have taken place in this country’s history, only 42 involved a white person being punished for killing a Black person.
Okay. Civility. This came after I posted my last post. I don't mean to step out... but my lawn is freaking long. I need to go on a run and, I have men's night golfing ahead of me. What a great life we live.
Please afford me some time to review your statistics. From a brief glance... I can tell you there appears to be a significant discrepancy with regards to how we might be treating some compared to others. Tonight I'll have myself a glass or two of a nice shiraz and contibute what I might.
I believe it's worse for all the reasons I listed. I also believe that the existence of the death penalty teaches people that murder is a solution, and that it effects the level of violence in that same society.
The death penalty serves no purpose whatsoever other than the fulfillment of blood-lust. It does not work as a deterrent, therefore it's revenge, pure and simple. And what sort of society should function on the level of vengeance and blood-lust? Should not any just society place itself on a higher moral footing than that of rapists and murderers? Is it not the test of any society to not allow itself to sink to the same level as those it condemns - even those guilty of the most savage of crimes?
According to a 2011 study published in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, eighty-eight percent of the country’s top criminologists do not believe the death penalty acts as a deterrent.
http://deathpenaltycurriculum.org/stude ... ment1b.htm
'...some criminologists, such as William Bowers of Northeastern University, maintain that the death penalty has the opposite effect: that is, society is brutalized by the use of the death penalty, and this increases the likelihood of more murder. States in the United States that do not employ the death penalty generally have lower murder rates than states that do. The same is true when the U.S. is compared to countries similar to it. The U.S., with the death penalty, has a higher murder rate than the countries of Europe or Canada, which do not use the death penalty. The death penalty is not a deterrent because most people who commit murders either do not expect to be caught or do not carefully weigh the differences between a possible execution and life in prison before they act. Frequently, murders are committed in moments of passion or anger, or by criminals who are substance abusers and acted impulsively.'
have you forgotten that I am against the death penalty?
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Being told the exact date of your execution months, or even years, in advance, and then being snuffed out by the state in a clinical administrative process that cloaks itself in the name of 'justice' and 'the law', is worse than a situation lasting, in the majority of cases, a few minutes, and where death is not a certainty.
I am against capital punishment. but there is no way in hell I can agree with this statement.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Being told the exact date of your execution months, or even years, in advance, and then being snuffed out by the state in a clinical administrative process that cloaks itself in the name of 'justice' and 'the law', is worse than a situation lasting, in the majority of cases, a few minutes, and where death is not a certainty.
I am against capital punishment. but there is no way in hell I can agree with this statement.
I agree. I don't support the death penalty either, but I don't agree with the above statement. Aside from situations in which people are kidnapped, tortured and eventually murdered, there are people living in domestic abuse situations that are terrorized and tormented by their abusers for years. They are forced to watch pets being tortured and killed as a reminder that they could be killed at any time, and sometimes they are. Even if the justice system were perfect and full proof, I don't support the death penalty, but it is an issue I sometimes struggle with in cases of extreme torture; when the murderer seemed to take pleasure in tormenting and killing. I feel unsafe knowing people like that are still alive, and I empathize that their families may support death in those cases. It's something I hope to never have to face personally.
"I need your strength for me to be strong...I need your love to feel loved"
HFD my belief in God tells me the death penalty is wrong...I don't know why..I just feel it, but...
the side of me that believes a life for a life is just...,man I hope I never get picked for jury duty on a murder case
HFD my belief in God tells me the death penalty is wrong...I don't know why..I just feel it
'The unbeliever cannot keep from thinking that men who have set at the center of their faith the staggering victim of a judicial error ought at least to hesitate before committing legal murder.' Albert Camus - Reflections on The Guillotine
HFD my belief in God tells me the death penalty is wrong...I don't know why..I just feel it, but...
the side of me that believes a life for a life is just...,man I hope I never get picked for jury duty on a murder case
Godfather.
...
Well... at least you're conflicted. It means you are thinking about it... instead of just going with gut feeling, right?
Sometimes, shit we face in life is tough and we have to think our way through it.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Wait a minute. I don't support murder. I support justice. If forced to deal with murder... your method of justice differs from mine and we agreed to disagree on this. There are plenty smarter than us who feel the same as I Byrnzie. There can be opposing views without one necessarily being right. When you place a definitive statement that completely dismisses an alternative point of view... it will be challenged.
Opposing viewpoints aside, what we continue to discuss is the proposition you put forth that a death row inmate's existence is comparable (correction... worse) to that of their victim's last moments at the hands of their murderer. You said it. You kind of denied you said it when you suggested I twisted your words and took things out of context. And now you have clearly said it again in your last clarification:
Being told the exact date of your execution months, or even years, in advance, and then being snuffed out by the state in a clinical administrative process that cloaks itself in the name of 'justice' and 'the law', is worse than a situation lasting, in the majority of cases, a few minutes, and where death is not a certainty.
Gagged, bound, bleeding, sexually assaulted, under the knife and waiting for the death blow for a brief time is far, far worse than solitary confinement with meals, newspapers, and crossword puzzles while waiting for the death blow. Get serious, man.
We'll need to agree to disagree on this as well. I think that a murder victim's plight is infinitely worse than that of a death row's plight for reasons already given. As stated, you think the opposite.
What's your opinion on the following statistics?:
The number of whites executed is 57%, compared with 34% of blacks, though African Americans are 12 percent of the U.S. population, but 42 percent of prisoners on death row.
In Pennsylvania, Louisiana and Maryland, and in the U.S. military and federal system, more than 60 percent of those on death row are Black; Virginia, Arkansas, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina and Ohio all have death rows where more than 50 percent are African American. Although Blacks constitute approximately 50 percent of murder victims each year, 80 percent of the victims in death penalty cases were white, and only 14 percent were Black.
Also, of the over 18,000 executions that have taken place in this country’s history, only 42 involved a white person being punished for killing a Black person.
I am curious to know where these statistics were drawn from (I believe them at face value, but would like to examine them- briefly- in the context they were provided). In particular, I would like to know the time frames from which they were drawn from and if there are any trends that see ratios 'correcting' themselves.
At face value, the stats you have provided are somewhat shocking, but sadly... not surprising. I can't surmise any reason for the major discrepancy other than racial attitudes are prevalent in the United States judicial system. It would seem that the court process allows for more preferential treatment towards white people- whether victims (prompting the pursuit of capital punishment) or criminals (leniant sentences compared to blacks).
HFD my belief in God tells me the death penalty is wrong...I don't know why..I just feel it, but...
the side of me that believes a life for a life is just...,man I hope I never get picked for jury duty on a murder case
Godfather.
...
Well... at least you're conflicted. It means you are thinking about it... instead of just going with gut feeling, right?
Sometimes, shit we face in life is tough and we have to think our way through it.
oohhh yes I think about it ! if I were on a jury pannel I would be the guy that couldn't pull the trigger..or to say yes on the death penalty, something about it seems wrong but as I've said it just irks me that a person can kill without just punishment or as it's been said an "eye for an eye"..I really feel that is Gods choice to make.
I am curious to know where these statistics were drawn from (I believe them at face value, but would like to examine them- briefly- in the context they were provided). In particular, I would like to know the time frames from which they were drawn from and if there are any trends that see ratios 'correcting' themselves.
As for trends, I can't help you there. Maybe the answer is available online somewhere. And in relation to time-frames, the piece refers to 'executions that have taken place in [the] country’s history', which I take to mean the totality of executions in the U.S since they began, to the present day.
Anyway, I'm off traveling across China for the next four weeks, so I'll catch up with you fellas later.
Be good, and remember not to laugh at Creationists, as it'll be like walking into a hornets nest.
Nanny kills two kids caught at the scene, too bad NYS doesn't have the death penalty for this savage.
Why? What difference would that make?
Vital tax payer money would be saved. Instead of feeding, clothing, and entertaining this monster for the rest of her life we can just inject her with about a dollars worth of bleach into her artery and call it a day.
Nanny kills two kids caught at the scene, too bad NYS doesn't have the death penalty for this savage.
Why? What difference would that make?
Vital tax payer money would be saved. Instead of feeding, clothing, and entertaining this monster for the rest of her life we can just inject her with about a dollars worth of bleach into her artery and call it a day.
Wrong. It costs more to execute someone than to keep them alive in jail.
I don't believe that, after all the apeals and the attorney / court cost then to feed and support that person for the rest of their natural life (medical and such) I don't see how any money was or is saved.
I don't believe that, after all the apeals and the attorney / court cost then to feed and support that person for the rest of their natural life (medical and such) I don't see how any money was or is saved.
Godfather.
Whether you believe it or not is irrelevant. It's a fact.
with out choosing one or the other on this issue it just scares the crap out of me that taking a life(justifible or not) comes down to money and this quote from the artical you posted (great read btw) is even scarrier...
""Executions do not have to cost that much. We could hang them and re-use the rope. No cost! Or we could use firing squads and ask for volunteer firing squad members who would provide their own guns and ammunition. Again, no cost."'
asking for a volunteer to end a life ?...and buy your own bullets ? :shock: this sounds like a Terrontino movie
I don't know about you guy's but there is no frigging way I could volunteer to do this and it makes me wonder about the poeple that would volunteer, what is their motive for doing this ? and that said,I know guy's that have been in war who told that their first kill was no big deal to them while others cried and puked but still it's just baffling to me.
with out choosing one or the other on this issue it just scares the crap out of me that taking a life(justifible or not) comes down to money and this quote from the artical you posted (great read btw) is even scarrier...
""Executions do not have to cost that much. We could hang them and re-use the rope. No cost! Or we could use firing squads and ask for volunteer firing squad members who would provide their own guns and ammunition. Again, no cost."'
asking for a volunteer to end a life ?...and buy your own bullets ? :shock: this sounds like a Terrontino movie
I don't know about you guy's but there is no frigging way I could volunteer to do this and it makes me wonder about the poeple that would volunteer, what is their motive for doing this ? and that said,I know guy's that have been in war who told that their first kill was no big deal to them while others cried and puked but still it's just baffling to me.
Godfather.
Godfather...you'll never win this argument here in the AMT .
I'ver heard it all here...the best 1 I love is that it's cruel...up here in Canada many of the very dangerous are locked away 23 hours a day in a 6 * 9 cell, only allowed reading materials and a pad and paper. So I don't know whats more cruel.
Here we have a few horrific criminals that even videotaped their crimes that are just wasting tax $$$$
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clifford_Olson
(now deceased...but the Canadian taxpayer provided him fine medical care when he was diagnosed with cancer. This guy a great example of human trash. The government paid him to tell where the victims were...once in prison he became a Royal pain an the ass to the government and his victims family. But you know he has rights.
with out choosing one or the other on this issue it just scares the crap out of me that taking a life(justifible or not) comes down to money and this quote from the artical you posted (great read btw) is even scarrier...
""Executions do not have to cost that much. We could hang them and re-use the rope. No cost! Or we could use firing squads and ask for volunteer firing squad members who would provide their own guns and ammunition. Again, no cost."'
asking for a volunteer to end a life ?...and buy your own bullets ? :shock: this sounds like a Terrontino movie
I don't know about you guy's but there is no frigging way I could volunteer to do this and it makes me wonder about the poeple that would volunteer, what is their motive for doing this ? and that said,I know guy's that have been in war who told that their first kill was no big deal to them while others cried and puked but still it's just baffling to me.
Godfather.
the only people that are dumbing the issue down to economics are the pro death penalty folks. they keep saying it's cheaper just to put a bullet in the person than feed him.
for me it's very simple: no one has the right to take a life except in self defence. and the government is not defending itself against these people.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Comments
The following is the only part I have left out from your statement. I don't think it changes the meaning of what you are trying to say... I think it attempts to 'clarify' your position. I'm not challenging the reasons you have for assuming your position... I'm challenging your position:
It's worse not just in relation to the person who's life is due to be extinguished, but because it pretends to be carried out on behalf of civilized people with morality on their side. It reeks of hypocrisy and arrogance.
So... in review... your position:
Being told the exact date of your execution months, or even years, in advance, and then being snuffed out by the state in a clinical administrative process that cloaks itself in the name of 'justice' and 'the law', is worse than a situation lasting, in the majority of cases, a few minutes, and where death is not a certainty.
And some support for your position:
It's worse not just in relation to the person who's life is due to be extinguished, but because it pretends to be carried out on behalf of civilized people with morality on their side. It reeks of hypocrisy and arrogance.
To which I say it hardly reeks of arrogance and hypocrisy. I would suggest it reflects how we feel about the crime and the criminal and how we offer justice to those that might need this form of justice. Anyways... here we go again recirculating our position on this. We remain opposed. So be it. One last time... your position is fine, but I don't agree with it.
And for the record... your veiled attempts at character assassination have been noted. When one resorts to such tactics... it generally reveals some level of insecurity- either within the argument or within the person. Keep it civil. Just because I haven't responded on a more 'personal' level doesn't mean I am toothless to do so.
Okay. Civility. This came after I posted my last post. I don't mean to step out... but my lawn is freaking long. I need to go on a run and, I have men's night golfing ahead of me. What a great life we live.
Please afford me some time to review your statistics. From a brief glance... I can tell you there appears to be a significant discrepancy with regards to how we might be treating some compared to others. Tonight I'll have myself a glass or two of a nice shiraz and contibute what I might.
have you forgotten that I am against the death penalty?
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
there is no such thing as state-sanctioned revenge killings...we have laws..plain and simple.
Godfather.
I am against capital punishment. but there is no way in hell I can agree with this statement.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
that's like saying segregation and slavery were not racism just because they were legal
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I oppose the Death Penalty on moral grounds. Life sentence with the animals in the zoo... works for me.
Hail, Hail!!!
"I need your strength for me to be strong...I need your love to feel loved"
????? I aint buy'n that man, seems everything here is compared to racism...why is that ?
Godfather.
I don't know about that, the only reason I used that as a comparison is because just because it is law doesn't automatically make it correct.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
the side of me that believes a life for a life is just...,man I hope I never get picked for jury duty on a murder case
Godfather.
'The unbeliever cannot keep from thinking that men who have set at the center of their faith the staggering victim of a judicial error ought at least to hesitate before committing legal murder.'
Albert Camus - Reflections on The Guillotine
Well... at least you're conflicted. It means you are thinking about it... instead of just going with gut feeling, right?
Sometimes, shit we face in life is tough and we have to think our way through it.
Hail, Hail!!!
I am curious to know where these statistics were drawn from (I believe them at face value, but would like to examine them- briefly- in the context they were provided). In particular, I would like to know the time frames from which they were drawn from and if there are any trends that see ratios 'correcting' themselves.
At face value, the stats you have provided are somewhat shocking, but sadly... not surprising. I can't surmise any reason for the major discrepancy other than racial attitudes are prevalent in the United States judicial system. It would seem that the court process allows for more preferential treatment towards white people- whether victims (prompting the pursuit of capital punishment) or criminals (leniant sentences compared to blacks).
Thanks for sharing!
oohhh yes I think about it ! if I were on a jury pannel I would be the guy that couldn't pull the trigger..or to say yes on the death penalty, something about it seems wrong but as I've said it just irks me that a person can kill without just punishment or as it's been said an "eye for an eye"..I really feel that is Gods choice to make.
Godfather.
http://www.nodeathpenalty.org/get-the-f ... th-penalty
As for trends, I can't help you there. Maybe the answer is available online somewhere. And in relation to time-frames, the piece refers to 'executions that have taken place in [the] country’s history', which I take to mean the totality of executions in the U.S since they began, to the present day.
Anyway, I'm off traveling across China for the next four weeks, so I'll catch up with you fellas later.
Be good, and remember not to laugh at Creationists, as it'll be like walking into a hornets nest.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/mas ... z2AQOGXmC0
Why? What difference would that make?
Lol.
Wanna have a cut and paste 'go''?
That's clever.
Care to answer my question?
Vital tax payer money would be saved. Instead of feeding, clothing, and entertaining this monster for the rest of her life we can just inject her with about a dollars worth of bleach into her artery and call it a day.
Wrong. It costs more to execute someone than to keep them alive in jail.
Godfather.
Whether you believe it or not is irrelevant. It's a fact.
So it comes down to money?
I guess that is the way of the world. I would think it would come down to breathing myself.
Who deserves life?
I've learned I can not make that decision, it was never supposed to be mine to make.
Does the death penalty cost less than life in prison without parole?
http://deathpenalty.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=001000
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
with out choosing one or the other on this issue it just scares the crap out of me that taking a life(justifible or not) comes down to money and this quote from the artical you posted (great read btw) is even scarrier...
""Executions do not have to cost that much. We could hang them and re-use the rope. No cost! Or we could use firing squads and ask for volunteer firing squad members who would provide their own guns and ammunition. Again, no cost."'
asking for a volunteer to end a life ?...and buy your own bullets ? :shock: this sounds like a Terrontino movie
I don't know about you guy's but there is no frigging way I could volunteer to do this and it makes me wonder about the poeple that would volunteer, what is their motive for doing this ? and that said,I know guy's that have been in war who told that their first kill was no big deal to them while others cried and puked but still it's just baffling to me.
Godfather.
Godfather...you'll never win this argument here in the AMT
I'ver heard it all here...the best 1 I love is that it's cruel...up here in Canada many of the very dangerous are locked away 23 hours a day in a 6 * 9 cell, only allowed reading materials and a pad and paper. So I don't know whats more cruel.
Here we have a few horrific criminals that even videotaped their crimes that are just wasting tax $$$$
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Bernardo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Williams
(this guy was commander of a huge air base and used to fly around dignitaries around)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Pickton
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clifford_Olson
(now deceased...but the Canadian taxpayer provided him fine medical care when he was diagnosed with cancer. This guy a great example of human trash. The government paid him to tell where the victims were...once in prison he became a Royal pain an the ass to the government and his victims family. But you know he has rights.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nat ... le2430837/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Shafia
These are just a few examples ... their guilt is not in doubt.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
the only people that are dumbing the issue down to economics are the pro death penalty folks. they keep saying it's cheaper just to put a bullet in the person than feed him.
for me it's very simple: no one has the right to take a life except in self defence. and the government is not defending itself against these people.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014