The Death Penalty

PJ_Soul

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

^^^
Just trying to stop the circular debate.
It's not murder.

Are you joking? There was no circular debate until you created one.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

PJ_Soul said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

Totally agree.
Also, some people might not see the difference between a violent criminal and a rodent, but I bet the criminal's mother and dad, kids, etc do. Just because that person didn't value human life doesn't mean we have to sink to his or her level.

Some feel we have a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims and their families.

Some people feel that a warm cell, meals, clean laundry and state funded therapy isn't exactly justice for dismembered children.

Yeah I know.
I find the idea of government mandated murder - legal murder for the sole purpose of revenge - to be an absolutely appalling and uncivilized concept that lowers the overall moral integrity of any society that supports it. We need to rise above the crimes and criminals that we abhor and show that murder is wrong, not lower ourselves to the primitive and morally corrupt act of vengeful state sanctioned murder. The fact that the criminal justice system allows for the possibility of innocent people being put to death just makes it that much worse.

Your last sentence is noteworthy- I'd acknowledge that (and always have).

The system is getting refined though.
Can't have a tight justice system without repairing the cracks along the way.

And societies are getting more refined too, which means they are less and less apt to support the DP (outside of the USA, which is a really fucked up anomaly among western nations). The world is moving away from dealing with crime through murder, not warming up to it. And yes, I do consider it murder. 100%. I'm not sure how anyone could say it's not. The taking of a life against the victim's will. That's murder in my book.

So by this logic... incarcerating someone is bondage?

And by extension... something we should enlighten ourselves with and move away from as well?

PJ_Soul

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

Totally agree.
Also, some people might not see the difference between a violent criminal and a rodent, but I bet the criminal's mother and dad, kids, etc do. Just because that person didn't value human life doesn't mean we have to sink to his or her level.

Some feel we have a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims and their families.

Some people feel that a warm cell, meals, clean laundry and state funded therapy isn't exactly justice for dismembered children.

Yeah I know.
I find the idea of government mandated murder - legal murder for the sole purpose of revenge - to be an absolutely appalling and uncivilized concept that lowers the overall moral integrity of any society that supports it. We need to rise above the crimes and criminals that we abhor and show that murder is wrong, not lower ourselves to the primitive and morally corrupt act of vengeful state sanctioned murder. The fact that the criminal justice system allows for the possibility of innocent people being put to death just makes it that much worse.

Your last sentence is noteworthy- I'd acknowledge that (and always have).

The system is getting refined though.
Can't have a tight justice system without repairing the cracks along the way.

And societies are getting more refined too, which means they are less and less apt to support the DP (outside of the USA, which is a really fucked up anomaly among western nations). The world is moving away from dealing with crime through murder, not warming up to it. And yes, I do consider it murder. 100%. I'm not sure how anyone could say it's not. The taking of a life against the victim's will. That's murder in my book.

So by this logic... incarcerating someone is bondage?

And by extension... something we should enlighten ourselves with and move away from as well?

I believe tying them up with rope or chains or some kind of wire so that they can't really move would be bondage. Incarcerating them is imprisoning them. And you need to watch more porn.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

Totally agree.
Also, some people might not see the difference between a violent criminal and a rodent, but I bet the criminal's mother and dad, kids, etc do. Just because that person didn't value human life doesn't mean we have to sink to his or her level.

Some feel we have a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims and their families.

Some people feel that a warm cell, meals, clean laundry and state funded therapy isn't exactly justice for dismembered children.

Yeah I know.
I find the idea of government mandated murder - legal murder for the sole purpose of revenge - to be an absolutely appalling and uncivilized concept that lowers the overall moral integrity of any society that supports it. We need to rise above the crimes and criminals that we abhor and show that murder is wrong, not lower ourselves to the primitive and morally corrupt act of vengeful state sanctioned murder. The fact that the criminal justice system allows for the possibility of innocent people being put to death just makes it that much worse.

Your last sentence is noteworthy- I'd acknowledge that (and always have).

The system is getting refined though.
Can't have a tight justice system without repairing the cracks along the way.

And societies are getting more refined too, which means they are less and less apt to support the DP (outside of the USA, which is a really fucked up anomaly among western nations). The world is moving away from dealing with crime through murder, not warming up to it. And yes, I do consider it murder. 100%. I'm not sure how anyone could say it's not. The taking of a life against the victim's will. That's murder in my book.

So by this logic... incarcerating someone is bondage?

And by extension... something we should enlighten ourselves with and move away from as well?

I believe tying them up with rope or chains or some kind of wire so that they can't really move would be bondage. Incarcerating them is imprisoning them. And you need to watch more porn.

Handcuffs and chains.

Aren't these the devices used on violent offenders when moving them about?

And I guess you agree that incarcerating them is akin to kidnapping them?

PJ_Soul

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

Totally agree.
Also, some people might not see the difference between a violent criminal and a rodent, but I bet the criminal's mother and dad, kids, etc do. Just because that person didn't value human life doesn't mean we have to sink to his or her level.

Some feel we have a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims and their families.

Some people feel that a warm cell, meals, clean laundry and state funded therapy isn't exactly justice for dismembered children.

Yeah I know.
I find the idea of government mandated murder - legal murder for the sole purpose of revenge - to be an absolutely appalling and uncivilized concept that lowers the overall moral integrity of any society that supports it. We need to rise above the crimes and criminals that we abhor and show that murder is wrong, not lower ourselves to the primitive and morally corrupt act of vengeful state sanctioned murder. The fact that the criminal justice system allows for the possibility of innocent people being put to death just makes it that much worse.

Your last sentence is noteworthy- I'd acknowledge that (and always have).

The system is getting refined though.
Can't have a tight justice system without repairing the cracks along the way.

And societies are getting more refined too, which means they are less and less apt to support the DP (outside of the USA, which is a really fucked up anomaly among western nations). The world is moving away from dealing with crime through murder, not warming up to it. And yes, I do consider it murder. 100%. I'm not sure how anyone could say it's not. The taking of a life against the victim's will. That's murder in my book.

So by this logic... incarcerating someone is bondage?

And by extension... something we should enlighten ourselves with and move away from as well?

I believe tying them up with rope or chains or some kind of wire so that they can't really move would be bondage. Incarcerating them is imprisoning them. And you need to watch more porn.

Handcuffs and chains.

Aren't these the devices used on violent offenders when moving them about?

And I guess you agree that incarcerating them is akin to kidnapping them?

You don't really expect me to answer these silly questions, do you?
Obviously you're trying to make the point about how capital punishment is legal.... Aren't you Canadian?????

Thirty Bills Unpaid

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

Totally agree.
Also, some people might not see the difference between a violent criminal and a rodent, but I bet the criminal's mother and dad, kids, etc do. Just because that person didn't value human life doesn't mean we have to sink to his or her level.

Some feel we have a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims and their families.

Some people feel that a warm cell, meals, clean laundry and state funded therapy isn't exactly justice for dismembered children.

Yeah I know.
I find the idea of government mandated murder - legal murder for the sole purpose of revenge - to be an absolutely appalling and uncivilized concept that lowers the overall moral integrity of any society that supports it. We need to rise above the crimes and criminals that we abhor and show that murder is wrong, not lower ourselves to the primitive and morally corrupt act of vengeful state sanctioned murder. The fact that the criminal justice system allows for the possibility of innocent people being put to death just makes it that much worse.

Your last sentence is noteworthy- I'd acknowledge that (and always have).

The system is getting refined though.
Can't have a tight justice system without repairing the cracks along the way.

And societies are getting more refined too, which means they are less and less apt to support the DP (outside of the USA, which is a really fucked up anomaly among western nations). The world is moving away from dealing with crime through murder, not warming up to it. And yes, I do consider it murder. 100%. I'm not sure how anyone could say it's not. The taking of a life against the victim's will. That's murder in my book.

So by this logic... incarcerating someone is bondage?

And by extension... something we should enlighten ourselves with and move away from as well?

I believe tying them up with rope or chains or some kind of wire so that they can't really move would be bondage. Incarcerating them is imprisoning them. And you need to watch more porn.

Handcuffs and chains.

Aren't these the devices used on violent offenders when moving them about?

And I guess you agree that incarcerating them is akin to kidnapping them?

You don't really expect me to answer these silly questions, do you?
Obviously you're trying to make the point about how capital punishment is legal.... Aren't you Canadian?????

Wow.

Here's a quick definition of 'murder' for you: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another

So let me spell this out for you.

You're calling legally accepted capital punishment... murder... when it's not. You could extend your 'silly' thought process and call imprisonment kidnapping as well if you were really inclined to hop aboard such a train of thought.

Both are punishments for a crime where some measure or action intended to serve justice is demanded.

oftenreading

Anything can be "lawful" if the law of that society permits it. I would suspect that we can all agree that this doesn't necessarily make those actions right, ethical, or justifiable. Some societies lawfully permit execution for adultery. Some societies lawfully permit imprisonment for being homosexual. Would you be in support of those lawful punishments, Thirty?

You are correct that, legally, execution is not termed murder although it sure has an awful lot of commonalities with first degree murder.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

oftenreading said:

Anything can be "lawful" if the law of that society permits it. I would suspect that we can all agree that this doesn't necessarily make those actions right, ethical, or justifiable. Some societies lawfully permit execution for adultery. Some societies lawfully permit imprisonment for being homosexual. Would you be in support of those lawful punishments, Thirty?

You are correct that, legally, execution is not termed murder although it sure has an awful lot of commonalities with first degree murder.

This is true. But it can also be true that the pendulum can swing too far the other way. Where it should rest is the crux of this debate.

Executing a guy like Steve Smith (the person that raped and killed a 10 month old) is a far cry from executing someone for having an affair? No?

oftenreading

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

oftenreading said:

Anything can be "lawful" if the law of that society permits it. I would suspect that we can all agree that this doesn't necessarily make those actions right, ethical, or justifiable. Some societies lawfully permit execution for adultery. Some societies lawfully permit imprisonment for being homosexual. Would you be in support of those lawful punishments, Thirty?

You are correct that, legally, execution is not termed murder although it sure has an awful lot of commonalities with first degree murder.

This is true. But it can also be true that the pendulum can swing too far the other way. Where it should rest is the crux of this debate.

Executing a guy like Steve Smith (the person that raped and killed a 10 month old) is a far cry from executing someone for having an affair? No?

If both are legal in their respective countries, then both are essentially legally equivalent. If you don't see them as equivalent, that argues that "lawful" executions might not necessarily be justified.

callen

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

Totally agree.
Also, some people might not see the difference between a violent criminal and a rodent, but I bet the criminal's mother and dad, kids, etc do. Just because that person didn't value human life doesn't mean we have to sink to his or her level.

Some feel we have a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims and their families.

Some people feel that a warm cell, meals, clean laundry and state funded therapy isn't exactly justice for dismembered children.

It's vengeance not justice. Not fooling anyone.

callen

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

rgambs said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

^^^^
Some people do kill for the guarantee of room and board.

Say what now?

Jail for the rest of their life instead of the DP.

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

rgambs said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

rgambs said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

^^^^
Some people do kill for the guarantee of room and board.

Say what now?

Jail for the rest of their life instead of the DP.

Are you saying they kill so they can go to prison?

Some yes.
Their shitty existence of a life is much better on the inside.
Their deluded minds (the only state in which one would kill) recognizes that and they commit the act.
No remorse, pure psychotic.

Examples?

callen

Capital punishment is animalistic. Uncivilized.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

oftenreading said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

oftenreading said:

Anything can be "lawful" if the law of that society permits it. I would suspect that we can all agree that this doesn't necessarily make those actions right, ethical, or justifiable. Some societies lawfully permit execution for adultery. Some societies lawfully permit imprisonment for being homosexual. Would you be in support of those lawful punishments, Thirty?

You are correct that, legally, execution is not termed murder although it sure has an awful lot of commonalities with first degree murder.

This is true. But it can also be true that the pendulum can swing too far the other way. Where it should rest is the crux of this debate.

Executing a guy like Steve Smith (the person that raped and killed a 10 month old) is a far cry from executing someone for having an affair? No?

If both are legal in their respective countries, then both are essentially legally equivalent. If you don't see them as equivalent, that argues that "lawful" executions might not necessarily be justified.

Yes.

But this works against your argument as well- the one where you said some laws are not right. According to the majority of people in Canada, our leniency towards people such as Clifford Olson is not right. 3 of 5 people support the DP in our country.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

callen said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

Totally agree.
Also, some people might not see the difference between a violent criminal and a rodent, but I bet the criminal's mother and dad, kids, etc do. Just because that person didn't value human life doesn't mean we have to sink to his or her level.

Some feel we have a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims and their families.

Some people feel that a warm cell, meals, clean laundry and state funded therapy isn't exactly justice for dismembered children.

It's vengeance not justice. Not fooling anyone.

Vengeance and justice are ultimately the same things.

Are you trying to say locking people behind bars for life isn't vengeance?

Maybe you are trying to say that we need to focus our efforts on doing all we can to rehabilitate and comfort Steve Smith... the rapist murderer of 10 month old infants... so that we can... I don't know... feel like awesome human beings?

Don't you think there's something wrong with allowing a rodent like Smith to feed at the trough after what he did while, at the same time, we offer nothing to the impoverished people you constantly advocate for?

There's only so much to go around, Callen. You do realize this, eh? I'd prefer to dedicate our collective resources to our youth and needy versus our infant murderers.

PJ_Soul

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

Totally agree.
Also, some people might not see the difference between a violent criminal and a rodent, but I bet the criminal's mother and dad, kids, etc do. Just because that person didn't value human life doesn't mean we have to sink to his or her level.

Some feel we have a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims and their families.

Some people feel that a warm cell, meals, clean laundry and state funded therapy isn't exactly justice for dismembered children.

Yeah I know.
I find the idea of government mandated murder - legal murder for the sole purpose of revenge - to be an absolutely appalling and uncivilized concept that lowers the overall moral integrity of any society that supports it. We need to rise above the crimes and criminals that we abhor and show that murder is wrong, not lower ourselves to the primitive and morally corrupt act of vengeful state sanctioned murder. The fact that the criminal justice system allows for the possibility of innocent people being put to death just makes it that much worse.

Your last sentence is noteworthy- I'd acknowledge that (and always have).

The system is getting refined though.
Can't have a tight justice system without repairing the cracks along the way.

And societies are getting more refined too, which means they are less and less apt to support the DP (outside of the USA, which is a really fucked up anomaly among western nations). The world is moving away from dealing with crime through murder, not warming up to it. And yes, I do consider it murder. 100%. I'm not sure how anyone could say it's not. The taking of a life against the victim's will. That's murder in my book.

So by this logic... incarcerating someone is bondage?

And by extension... something we should enlighten ourselves with and move away from as well?

I believe tying them up with rope or chains or some kind of wire so that they can't really move would be bondage. Incarcerating them is imprisoning them. And you need to watch more porn.

Handcuffs and chains.

Aren't these the devices used on violent offenders when moving them about?

And I guess you agree that incarcerating them is akin to kidnapping them?

You don't really expect me to answer these silly questions, do you?
Obviously you're trying to make the point about how capital punishment is legal.... Aren't you Canadian?????

Wow.

Here's a quick definition of 'murder' for you: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another

So let me spell this out for you.

You're calling legally accepted capital punishment... murder... when it's not. You could extend your 'silly' thought process and call imprisonment kidnapping as well if you were really inclined to hop aboard such a train of thought.

Both are punishments for a crime where some measure or action intended to serve justice is demanded.

Lol. Don't "wow" me.
You know exactly what I mean when I say that the death penalty is murder (and yes, I did know the dictionary definition, no need to spell something out as though I'm 10 years old) - you are not THAT black and white as far as I know. I don't know why you hopped on this train when I said a lot of other stuff that is much more useful to talk about in the original post that you're responding to. As for the legality of it... the government can call all kinds of things legal and still be committing what many people would consider criminal (not in the dictionary sense), and I think you knew that's what I meant. Let's not have discussions like people with low IQs.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

Totally agree.
Also, some people might not see the difference between a violent criminal and a rodent, but I bet the criminal's mother and dad, kids, etc do. Just because that person didn't value human life doesn't mean we have to sink to his or her level.

Some feel we have a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims and their families.

Some people feel that a warm cell, meals, clean laundry and state funded therapy isn't exactly justice for dismembered children.

Yeah I know.
I find the idea of government mandated murder - legal murder for the sole purpose of revenge - to be an absolutely appalling and uncivilized concept that lowers the overall moral integrity of any society that supports it. We need to rise above the crimes and criminals that we abhor and show that murder is wrong, not lower ourselves to the primitive and morally corrupt act of vengeful state sanctioned murder. The fact that the criminal justice system allows for the possibility of innocent people being put to death just makes it that much worse.

Your last sentence is noteworthy- I'd acknowledge that (and always have).

The system is getting refined though.
Can't have a tight justice system without repairing the cracks along the way.

And societies are getting more refined too, which means they are less and less apt to support the DP (outside of the USA, which is a really fucked up anomaly among western nations). The world is moving away from dealing with crime through murder, not warming up to it. And yes, I do consider it murder. 100%. I'm not sure how anyone could say it's not. The taking of a life against the victim's will. That's murder in my book.

So by this logic... incarcerating someone is bondage?

And by extension... something we should enlighten ourselves with and move away from as well?

I believe tying them up with rope or chains or some kind of wire so that they can't really move would be bondage. Incarcerating them is imprisoning them. And you need to watch more porn.

Handcuffs and chains.

Aren't these the devices used on violent offenders when moving them about?

And I guess you agree that incarcerating them is akin to kidnapping them?

You don't really expect me to answer these silly questions, do you?
Obviously you're trying to make the point about how capital punishment is legal.... Aren't you Canadian?????

Wow.

Here's a quick definition of 'murder' for you: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another

So let me spell this out for you.

You're calling legally accepted capital punishment... murder... when it's not. You could extend your 'silly' thought process and call imprisonment kidnapping as well if you were really inclined to hop aboard such a train of thought.

Both are punishments for a crime where some measure or action intended to serve justice is demanded.

Lol. Don't "wow" me.
You know exactly what I mean when I say that the death penalty is murder (and yes, I did know the dictionary definition, no need to spell something out as though I'm 10 years old) - you are not THAT black and white as far as I know. I don't know why you hopped on this train when I said a lot of other stuff that is much more useful to talk about in the original post that you're responding to. As for the legality of it... the government can call all kinds of things legal and still be committing what many people would consider criminal (not in the dictionary sense), and I think you knew that's what I meant. Let's not have discussions like people with low IQs.

Then don't try and pass something off on me that I don't agree with.

You're not shoving 'murder' down my throat without resistance. My points stand and have not been countered.

PJ_Soul

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

Totally agree.
Also, some people might not see the difference between a violent criminal and a rodent, but I bet the criminal's mother and dad, kids, etc do. Just because that person didn't value human life doesn't mean we have to sink to his or her level.

Some feel we have a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims and their families.

Some people feel that a warm cell, meals, clean laundry and state funded therapy isn't exactly justice for dismembered children.

Yeah I know.
I find the idea of government mandated murder - legal murder for the sole purpose of revenge - to be an absolutely appalling and uncivilized concept that lowers the overall moral integrity of any society that supports it. We need to rise above the crimes and criminals that we abhor and show that murder is wrong, not lower ourselves to the primitive and morally corrupt act of vengeful state sanctioned murder. The fact that the criminal justice system allows for the possibility of innocent people being put to death just makes it that much worse.

Your last sentence is noteworthy- I'd acknowledge that (and always have).

The system is getting refined though.
Can't have a tight justice system without repairing the cracks along the way.

And societies are getting more refined too, which means they are less and less apt to support the DP (outside of the USA, which is a really fucked up anomaly among western nations). The world is moving away from dealing with crime through murder, not warming up to it. And yes, I do consider it murder. 100%. I'm not sure how anyone could say it's not. The taking of a life against the victim's will. That's murder in my book.

So by this logic... incarcerating someone is bondage?

And by extension... something we should enlighten ourselves with and move away from as well?

I believe tying them up with rope or chains or some kind of wire so that they can't really move would be bondage. Incarcerating them is imprisoning them. And you need to watch more porn.

Handcuffs and chains.

Aren't these the devices used on violent offenders when moving them about?

And I guess you agree that incarcerating them is akin to kidnapping them?

You don't really expect me to answer these silly questions, do you?
Obviously you're trying to make the point about how capital punishment is legal.... Aren't you Canadian?????

Wow.

Here's a quick definition of 'murder' for you: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another

So let me spell this out for you.

You're calling legally accepted capital punishment... murder... when it's not. You could extend your 'silly' thought process and call imprisonment kidnapping as well if you were really inclined to hop aboard such a train of thought.

Both are punishments for a crime where some measure or action intended to serve justice is demanded.

Lol. Don't "wow" me.
You know exactly what I mean when I say that the death penalty is murder (and yes, I did know the dictionary definition, no need to spell something out as though I'm 10 years old) - you are not THAT black and white as far as I know. I don't know why you hopped on this train when I said a lot of other stuff that is much more useful to talk about in the original post that you're responding to. As for the legality of it... the government can call all kinds of things legal and still be committing what many people would consider criminal (not in the dictionary sense), and I think you knew that's what I meant. Let's not have discussions like people with low IQs.

Then don't try and pass something off on me that I don't agree with.

You're not shoving 'murder' down my throat without resistance. My points stand and have not been countered.

How in the world was I shoving anything down your throat or "passing something off on you"? Huh? I was expressing my opinion like we all do here. What made you take it so personally??

HughFreakingDillon

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

oftenreading said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

oftenreading said:

Anything can be "lawful" if the law of that society permits it. I would suspect that we can all agree that this doesn't necessarily make those actions right, ethical, or justifiable. Some societies lawfully permit execution for adultery. Some societies lawfully permit imprisonment for being homosexual. Would you be in support of those lawful punishments, Thirty?

You are correct that, legally, execution is not termed murder although it sure has an awful lot of commonalities with first degree murder.

This is true. But it can also be true that the pendulum can swing too far the other way. Where it should rest is the crux of this debate.

Executing a guy like Steve Smith (the person that raped and killed a 10 month old) is a far cry from executing someone for having an affair? No?

If both are legal in their respective countries, then both are essentially legally equivalent. If you don't see them as equivalent, that argues that "lawful" executions might not necessarily be justified.

Yes.

But this works against your argument as well- the one where you said some laws are not right. According to the majority of people in Canada, our leniency towards people such as Clifford Olson is not right. 3 of 5 people support the DP in our country.

that is blatantly skewed. it all depends how you frame the question, as illustrated in this article that I'll post again, pay attention to the portion I've bolded. I would also bet a sizable sum that many, if not most, people would change their answer if they were also asked if executing innocents was going to be an unfortunate "necessary evil".

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2012/02/08/majority_of_canadians_support_return_of_death_penalty_poll_finds.html


Majority of Canadians support return of death penalty, poll finds

Sixty-one per cent of respondents said capital punishment, which was abolished in Canada in 1976, is warranted for murder.

By:Richard J. Brennan National Affairs Writer, Published on Wed Feb 08 2012



A half-century has passed since the last person in Canada was executed, but a recent public opinion poll suggests Canadians are warming to the idea of a return to capital punishment.


The survey conducted by Angus Reid Public Opinion in partnership with the Toronto Star found that 63 per cent of the 1,002 Canadians surveyed across the country believe the death penalty is sometimes appropriate. Sixty-one per cent said capital punishment, which was abolished in Canada in 1976, is warranted for murder.


“I think people might be warming to the idea of having it as an option on the table, if anything just as a deterrent,” said Jaideep Mukerji of Angus Reid.


But Mukerji said the poll also reveals that it is “not a black and white” issue for many Canadians. Given the choice of supporting the death penalty or life imprisonment, 50 per cent chose the latter, the survey found.


“We ask the question in two ways — do you support or oppose the death penalty — and in that context people really do support it,” he said. But when the option of life imprisonment is introduced as an option for those convicted of murder, “50 per cent actually say they would prefer life in prison.”


The debate over restoring the death penalty took on new life last week when Conservative Senator Pierre Hugues-Boisvenu suggested serial murderers should be given a rope to hang themselves in prison. In June 2002, the senator’s daughter Julie was kidnapped, raped and murdered. Boisvenu later withdraw his remark.


The Angus Reid online survey found that Canadians’ views on the death penalty differ greatly according to political allegiance and region. The poll was conducted Feb. 2 and 3 with a margin of error of plus or minus 3.1 per cent, 19 times out of 20.


In British Columbia and Alberta, about seven in 10 support the return of the death penalty; six in 10 Ontarians, or 62 per cent, agree.


The most opposition was in Quebec, with about 45 per cent against the return of capital punishment. Some 32 per cent in Ontario and 24 per cent in British Columbia were also opposed.


“These respondents (about 75 per cent) are primarily concerned over the possibility of wrongful convictions leading to executions, but most (54 per cent) also feel that even if a convicted murderer has taken a life it is wrong to take the murderer’s own life as punishment,” the survey results stated.


The poll found that respondents who voted Conservative in the 2011 federal election were more likely to regard the death penalty as “always” or “sometimes” appropriate while the majority of those who vote Liberal, Bloc Québécois or Green were opposed to the return of the death penalty. NDP supporters were divided on the question.


Last year, Angus Reid Public Opinion asked similar questions in the United States and Britain and found that the majority of respondents in both countries supported the continuation or the return of the death penalty.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

Totally agree.
Also, some people might not see the difference between a violent criminal and a rodent, but I bet the criminal's mother and dad, kids, etc do. Just because that person didn't value human life doesn't mean we have to sink to his or her level.

Some feel we have a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims and their families.

Some people feel that a warm cell, meals, clean laundry and state funded therapy isn't exactly justice for dismembered children.

Yeah I know.
I find the idea of government mandated murder - legal murder for the sole purpose of revenge - to be an absolutely appalling and uncivilized concept that lowers the overall moral integrity of any society that supports it. We need to rise above the crimes and criminals that we abhor and show that murder is wrong, not lower ourselves to the primitive and morally corrupt act of vengeful state sanctioned murder. The fact that the criminal justice system allows for the possibility of innocent people being put to death just makes it that much worse.

Your last sentence is noteworthy- I'd acknowledge that (and always have).

The system is getting refined though.
Can't have a tight justice system without repairing the cracks along the way.

And societies are getting more refined too, which means they are less and less apt to support the DP (outside of the USA, which is a really fucked up anomaly among western nations). The world is moving away from dealing with crime through murder, not warming up to it. And yes, I do consider it murder. 100%. I'm not sure how anyone could say it's not. The taking of a life against the victim's will. That's murder in my book.

So by this logic... incarcerating someone is bondage?

And by extension... something we should enlighten ourselves with and move away from as well?

I believe tying them up with rope or chains or some kind of wire so that they can't really move would be bondage. Incarcerating them is imprisoning them. And you need to watch more porn.

Handcuffs and chains.

Aren't these the devices used on violent offenders when moving them about?

And I guess you agree that incarcerating them is akin to kidnapping them?

You don't really expect me to answer these silly questions, do you?
Obviously you're trying to make the point about how capital punishment is legal.... Aren't you Canadian?????

Wow.

Here's a quick definition of 'murder' for you: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another

So let me spell this out for you.

You're calling legally accepted capital punishment... murder... when it's not. You could extend your 'silly' thought process and call imprisonment kidnapping as well if you were really inclined to hop aboard such a train of thought.

Both are punishments for a crime where some measure or action intended to serve justice is demanded.

Lol. Don't "wow" me.
You know exactly what I mean when I say that the death penalty is murder (and yes, I did know the dictionary definition, no need to spell something out as though I'm 10 years old) - you are not THAT black and white as far as I know. I don't know why you hopped on this train when I said a lot of other stuff that is much more useful to talk about in the original post that you're responding to. As for the legality of it... the government can call all kinds of things legal and still be committing what many people would consider criminal (not in the dictionary sense), and I think you knew that's what I meant. Let's not have discussions like people with low IQs.

Then don't try and pass something off on me that I don't agree with.

You're not shoving 'murder' down my throat without resistance. My points stand and have not been countered.

How in the world was I shoving anything down your throat or "passing something off on you"? Huh? I was expressing my opinion like we all do here. What made you take it so personally??

I never took it personally. You asserted it. I countered it. You didn't like the way I countered it.

If anything... you've taken it personal. Re-read the exchanges.

HughFreakingDillon

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

PJfanwillneverleave1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

We should be bound by it simply so we dont become like them on a societal level.

Totally agree.
Also, some people might not see the difference between a violent criminal and a rodent, but I bet the criminal's mother and dad, kids, etc do. Just because that person didn't value human life doesn't mean we have to sink to his or her level.

Some feel we have a responsibility to administer justice on behalf of the victims and their families.

Some people feel that a warm cell, meals, clean laundry and state funded therapy isn't exactly justice for dismembered children.

Yeah I know.
I find the idea of government mandated murder - legal murder for the sole purpose of revenge - to be an absolutely appalling and uncivilized concept that lowers the overall moral integrity of any society that supports it. We need to rise above the crimes and criminals that we abhor and show that murder is wrong, not lower ourselves to the primitive and morally corrupt act of vengeful state sanctioned murder. The fact that the criminal justice system allows for the possibility of innocent people being put to death just makes it that much worse.

Your last sentence is noteworthy- I'd acknowledge that (and always have).

The system is getting refined though.
Can't have a tight justice system without repairing the cracks along the way.

And societies are getting more refined too, which means they are less and less apt to support the DP (outside of the USA, which is a really fucked up anomaly among western nations). The world is moving away from dealing with crime through murder, not warming up to it. And yes, I do consider it murder. 100%. I'm not sure how anyone could say it's not. The taking of a life against the victim's will. That's murder in my book.

So by this logic... incarcerating someone is bondage?

And by extension... something we should enlighten ourselves with and move away from as well?

I believe tying them up with rope or chains or some kind of wire so that they can't really move would be bondage. Incarcerating them is imprisoning them. And you need to watch more porn.

Handcuffs and chains.

Aren't these the devices used on violent offenders when moving them about?

And I guess you agree that incarcerating them is akin to kidnapping them?

You don't really expect me to answer these silly questions, do you?
Obviously you're trying to make the point about how capital punishment is legal.... Aren't you Canadian?????

Wow.

Here's a quick definition of 'murder' for you: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another

So let me spell this out for you.

You're calling legally accepted capital punishment... murder... when it's not. You could extend your 'silly' thought process and call imprisonment kidnapping as well if you were really inclined to hop aboard such a train of thought.

Both are punishments for a crime where some measure or action intended to serve justice is demanded.

Lol. Don't "wow" me.
You know exactly what I mean when I say that the death penalty is murder (and yes, I did know the dictionary definition, no need to spell something out as though I'm 10 years old) - you are not THAT black and white as far as I know. I don't know why you hopped on this train when I said a lot of other stuff that is much more useful to talk about in the original post that you're responding to. As for the legality of it... the government can call all kinds of things legal and still be committing what many people would consider criminal (not in the dictionary sense), and I think you knew that's what I meant. Let's not have discussions like people with low IQs.

Then don't try and pass something off on me that I don't agree with.

You're not shoving 'murder' down my throat without resistance. My points stand and have not been countered.

How in the world was I shoving anything down your throat or "passing something off on you"? Huh? I was expressing my opinion like we all do here. What made you take it so personally??

I never took it personally. You asserted it. I countered it. You didn't like the way I countered it.

If anything... you've taken it personal. Re-read the exchanges.

as an independent and objective 3rd party, and also from what I've seen of both of your posting styles, PJSoul is 99% no bullshit and very little if any emotion. You (and I), can get quite emotional/confrontational, especially on this subject.