Looks like you missed the point......
"Right now the most important agenda for Washington needs to be the economy and jobs."
Who could disagree with that?
All of the current sitting republicans who've done fuck all to help create jobs but have gone right for their social wedge issues like gay marrige and abortion and weakening the power of collective bargaining to create a poor working class.
And me.
Because I have a job and I work in an industry that's doing just fine economically. So since you don't care about my rights, why should I give a shit about the issues that matter to you?
Until we live in an equal and just society, I don't think we live in a free society.
And I think, quite honestly, that our leaders are quite capable of passing a few laws to protect my rights while they also try to create more jobs for you.
look at the improvments over the last 60 years in regards to all sorts of individual rights.
sure right now all of your wants are not met, buut a little patience and in your lifetime they may be met
And that is where you are 100% wrong.
The improvements over the last 60 years weren't won by people who politely and patiently sat at home. Dr. Martin Luthor King and Harvey Milk didn't make changes happen by going out of their way to not annoy the straight,white people in control of the rights... they took to the street, they marched, they campaigned, they didn't stop talking about it and they didn't ever give up the fight.
So... stop telling me to pipe down because I annoy you with my "whining."
If you want me to shut up... good. So do I.
Fight to get me my equal rights and I'll never mention it again.
Deal?
so you have it a lot better than a lot of others. but you feel I should support you in your quest to be equal.
I disagree I much rather would support them get closer to our standards.
sure your right, your oppertunities may be limited due to our christian based society. you should be equal in all ways. i do agree
but
Many others need us to stand up for them, sure the situation with you is not fair, but with them its downright fucking criminal
you can live with the partner of choice . they cannot even be seen as having that particular sexual persuation because of fear of death
when I stand there i see people all around , people the same as me . the same love for their family and freinds
different situations BUT ALL THE SAME
we all deserve the same
all of us
why should you get all your want before others are brought up to your level
Looks like you missed the point......
"Right now the most important agenda for Washington needs to be the economy and jobs."
Who could disagree with that?
All of the current sitting republicans who've done fuck all to help create jobs but have gone right for their social wedge issues like gay marrige and abortion and weakening the power of collective bargaining to create a poor working class.
And me.
Because I have a job and I work in an industry that's doing just fine economically. So since you don't care about my rights, why should I give a shit about the issues that matter to you?
Until we live in an equal and just society, I don't think we live in a free society.
And I think, quite honestly, that our leaders are quite capable of passing a few laws to protect my rights while they also try to create more jobs for you.
Those kinds of comments make you sound arrogant and selfish. I have a job also, but I care about people that do not!
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
Those kinds of comments make you sound arrogant and selfish. I have a job also, but I care about people that do not!
You're the one who said "you can get married in some states" as if that should be enough. You're the one with the rights telling me that I should be happy with less and that I should focus only on things that YOU care about and pipe down about the things that don't matter to you.
Don't play the "arrogant and selfish" card with me. You will lose.
so you have it a lot better than a lot of others. but you feel I should support you in your quest to be equal.
I disagree I much rather would support them get closer to our standards.
sure your right, your oppertunities may be limited due to our christian based society. you should be equal in all ways. i do agree
but
Many others need us to stand up for them, sure the situation with you is not fair, but with them its downright fucking criminal
you can live with the partner of choice . they cannot even be seen as having that particular sexual persuation because of fear of death
when I stand there i see people all around , people the same as me . the same love for their family and freinds
different situations BUT ALL THE SAME
we all deserve the same
all of us
why should you get all your want before others are brought up to your level
So wait... before you will support me standing up for myself and my family's equality in America, you think I should instead just drop that and try to change anti-gay laws in Saudi Arabia and Jakarta.
Must be nice up in that ivory tower of yours... telling me that you won't let me in until I change the rest of the world first.
look at the improvments over the last 60 years in regards to all sorts of individual rights.
sure right now all of your wants are not met, buut a little patience and in your lifetime they may be met
And that is where you are 100% wrong.
The improvements over the last 60 years weren't won by people who politely and patiently sat at home. Dr. Martin Luthor King and Harvey Milk didn't make changes happen by going out of their way to not annoy the straight,white people in control of the rights... they took to the street, they marched, they campaigned, they didn't stop talking about it and they didn't ever give up the fight.
So... stop telling me to pipe down because I annoy you with my "whining."
If you want me to shut up... good. So do I.
Fight to get me my equal rights and I'll never mention it again.
Deal?
so you have it a lot better than a lot of others. but you feel I should support you in your quest to be equal.
I disagree I much rather would support them get closer to our standards.
sure your right, your oppertunities may be limited due to our christian based society. you should be equal in all ways. i do agree
but
Many others need us to stand up for them, sure the situation with you is not fair, but with them its downright fucking criminal
you can live with the partner of choice . they cannot even be seen as having that particular sexual persuation because of fear of death
when I stand there i see people all around , people the same as me . the same love for their family and freinds
different situations BUT ALL THE SAME
we all deserve the same
all of us
why should you get all your want before others are brought up to your level
Why SHOULDN'T he?? :? It's not a zero-sum game. We can support equality & justice for EVERYONE.
Looks like you missed the point......
"Right now the most important agenda for Washington needs to be the economy and jobs."
Who could disagree with that?
So I can look forward to not seeing laws such as DOMA, more drug laws, etc..?
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
so you have it a lot better than a lot of others. but you feel I should support you in your quest to be equal.
I disagree I much rather would support them get closer to our standards.
sure your right, your oppertunities may be limited due to our christian based society. you should be equal in all ways. i do agree
but
Many others need us to stand up for them, sure the situation with you is not fair, but with them its downright fucking criminal
you can live with the partner of choice . they cannot even be seen as having that particular sexual persuation because of fear of death
when I stand there i see people all around , people the same as me . the same love for their family and freinds
different situations BUT ALL THE SAME
we all deserve the same
all of us
why should you get all your want before others are brought up to your level
So wait... before you will support me standing up for myself and my family's equality in America, you think I should instead just drop that and try to change anti-gay laws in Saudi Arabia and Jakarta.
Must be nice up in that ivory tower of yours... telling me that you won't let me in until I change the rest of the world first.
Sorry. No.
No I do support you in your quest as i said I support all being equal. My point is that you do have an awlul lot of rights already. whilst others do not.
never said wont let you in
you are in, you just want a better room. whilst others are sleeping in the street.
No I do support you in your quest as i said I support all being equal. My point is that you do have an awlul lot of rights already. whilst others do not.
never said wont let you in
you are in, you just want a better room. whilst others are sleeping in the street.
Ah.
And what have you done to remedy that?
And can I say that I'm sick and fucking tired of being told "sorry, no time to deal with your problems now... there are bigger ones... you'll have to wait just a bit longer... yeah... sorry.. not this year.... maybe next year... just be patient... I want you to have those rights.... can you just wait a bit longer?... there are children starving in Japan... banks to bail out... wars to start.... no, can't can't end DOMA just yet... we need the Christians in the next election... no, you can't server openly in the military just yet... we're at war... and you know... that's gonna hurt a marine's feelings.... no... sorry, you have to wait in the hospital hallway while your husband dies in there alone... you understand... we'll do something about that next year."
One's life doesn't become good just because someone else has less. "More" is the contrast to less, not "good". But it's this kind of faulty reasoning that has been used to keep people oppressed for centuries. Those people you speak of in other countries who have it so much worse are being told the same thing.
I like this statement a lot. It can be applied universally to anyone who is oppressed.
"Don't give in to the lies. Don't give in to the fear. Hold on to the truth. And to hope."
Back to the point of this thread …
for example, should we censor comedians? When one person is offended by a bad joke.
So now, we have Tracy Morgan and Katt Williams having to release apologies. At least Katt stood up for him self…… Well so far.
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
No I do support you in your quest as i said I support all being equal. My point is that you do have an awlul lot of rights already. whilst others do not.
never said wont let you in
you are in, you just want a better room. whilst others are sleeping in the street.
Ah.
And what have you done to remedy that?
And can I say that I'm sick and fucking tired of being told "sorry, no time to deal with your problems now... there are bigger ones... you'll have to wait just a bit longer... yeah... sorry.. not this year.... maybe next year... just be patient... I want you to have those rights.... can you just wait a bit longer?... there are children starving in Japan... banks to bail out... wars to start.... no, can't can't end DOMA just yet... we need the Christians in the next election... no, you can't server openly in the military just yet... we're at war... and you know... that's gonna hurt a marine's feelings.... no... sorry, you have to wait in the hospital hallway while your husband dies in there alone... you understand... we'll do something about that next year."
i mean seriously.. how long would it take for them to remedy the imbalance? there shouldnt even be a debate cause what could possibly be said against giving gays total, not token equal rights? are they considered 2nd class citizens??? if the answer is no, then what the fuck is the problem??? oh yeah thats right.... gays arent like you and me... if they want to marry and have the same rights as us straighties then maybe they should just stop being gay. :roll: i will never fathom how equality can be judged through sexual preference.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
No I do support you in your quest as i said I support all being equal. My point is that you do have an awlul lot of rights already. whilst others do not.
never said wont let you in
you are in, you just want a better room. whilst others are sleeping in the street.
Ah.
And what have you done to remedy that?
And can I say that I'm sick and fucking tired of being told "sorry, no time to deal with your problems now... there are bigger ones... you'll have to wait just a bit longer... yeah... sorry.. not this year.... maybe next year... just be patient... I want you to have those rights.... can you just wait a bit longer?... there are children starving in Japan... banks to bail out... wars to start.... no, can't can't end DOMA just yet... we need the Christians in the next election... no, you can't server openly in the military just yet... we're at war... and you know... that's gonna hurt a marine's feelings.... no... sorry, you have to wait in the hospital hallway while your husband dies in there alone... you understand... we'll do something about that next year."
What have I done to remedy that.
there aint a hell of a lot I can do and have my own battles to fight. But with that battle I tend to talk of inspiration and gratitude. and those battles i fight may just help others to LIVE not get married but to actually NOT DIE. sure It has a selfish part to that as it may save my daughters life
I have in the past attended and marched in support of the gay community here in australia in Sydneys Mardi gra parade. I also vote for the most gay freindly party in my respective parliments. not for their gay policies but for their enviromental ideals.
I have many many gay freinds, our neihbours are a fantastic gay couple who I would trust my life with. I have talked with them regarding your angst. they say they are very happy with their lot.
our gay freinds are no different to any of our straight freinds. sure they have some rights issues to deal with and I support that but they have patience.
its gunna take a lot of time to bleed out the predjidice in our society, but generation after generation is slowly changing. my father for exaple reckons that gays should be rounded up and have their gayness beaten out of them. a generation later and its opposite.
its getting better. slowly but its happening. patience..
im not the enemy far from it
i mean seriously.. how long would it take for them to remedy the imbalance? there shouldnt even be a debate cause what could possibly be said against giving gays total, not token equal rights? are they considered 2nd class citizens??? if the answer is no, then what the fuck is the problem??? oh yeah thats right.... gays arent like you and me... if they want to marry and have the same rights as us straighties then maybe they should just stop being gay. :roll: i will never fathom how equality can be judged through sexual preference.
how long
as long as it takes.
we have to realise that a lot of older people had a limited access to information about others, in my lifetime this has changed dramatically.
they had their parents and peers, their local preist. Radio shows and maybe a few tv shows
I have internet and cable, here I am discussing with you this stuff, learning from you and others
As a youngster i was never allowed to watch our 2 available music shows as my parents didnt want me to have anything to do with the gay hosts. By watching these guys present music they beleived i could have caught their gayness
I have my gay neihbours babysit my daughter.
so much has changed and needs to change more. but its hard to change when so many do not support your quest, are actually against it.
Education subtracts fear
and Gays are like me and you. completely. only difference is sex/ love and thats their business as my own is mine
AUSSIE AUSSIE AUSSIE
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,728
i mean seriously.. how long would it take for them to remedy the imbalance? there shouldnt even be a debate cause what could possibly be said against giving gays total, not token equal rights? are they considered 2nd class citizens??? if the answer is no, then what the fuck is the problem??? oh yeah thats right.... gays arent like you and me... if they want to marry and have the same rights as us straighties then maybe they should just stop being gay. :roll: i will never fathom how equality can be judged through sexual preference.
how long
as long as it takes.
we have to realise that a lot of older people had a limited access to information about others, in my lifetime this has changed dramatically.
they had their parents and peers, their local preist. Radio shows and maybe a few tv shows
I have internet and cable, here I am discussing with you this stuff, learning from you and others
As a youngster i was never allowed to watch our 2 available music shows as my parents didnt want me to have anything to do with the gay hosts. By watching these guys present music they beleived i could have caught their gayness
I have my gay neihbours babysit my daughter.
so much has changed and needs to change more. but its hard to change when so many do not support your quest, are actually against it.
Education subtracts fear
and Gays are like me and you. completely. only difference is sex/ love and thats their business as my own is mine
“a lot of older people had a limited access to information about others…they had their parents and peers, their local priest. Radio shows and maybe a few tv shows”
Whoa- wait a minute- I thought I was one of those older guy! You must be talking about my father’s generation- the GI generation. I hate to tell you this, but my old man is 90 and most of his piers are dead and gone. And they weren’t clueless, believe me. The next generation- that’s mine- the “baby boomers” have not been shorted on access to information. True, we didn’t have the internet in the 60‘s and seventies, but we talked- in person- face to face and in groups. We didn’t have 187 TV channels, but how many do you need to get news? I mean, it didn’t take weeks to find out a man walked on the moon.
Sorry, that part just struck me as a bit odd. Besides, so much HAS changed in the world since the time of only getting news from priests, radio and a few TV shows as sources of information (and, again, I think you must be talking about the 30’s or 40’s into the early 50’s). A black man has been elected president of the U.S. Women are prevalent in congress and hold high positions in business and in other careers (still a ways to go there, but much has improved). Some things have changed because people demanded it.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t get the feeling you oppose changing people attitudes toward gays, I just don’t agree with the “as long as it takes” part. That is too passive. The bias against gays has to stop. We humans have always had a gay population (same is true even for other species besides homo sapiens). Some cultures have been much more enlightened than ours in accepting that and in having no problem at all with homosexuality. We’re behind the times, way behind. It’s time to get real and get fair. No more “waiting for things to take their natural course.” It’s time to give equality to gays now, not decades from now. We’ve had this discussion long enough already.
"Don't give in to the lies. Don't give in to the fear. Hold on to the truth. And to hope."
how long
as long as it takes.
we have to realise that a lot of older people had a limited access to information about others, in my lifetime this has changed dramatically.
they had their parents and peers, their local preist. Radio shows and maybe a few tv shows
I have internet and cable, here I am discussing with you this stuff, learning from you and others
As a youngster i was never allowed to watch our 2 available music shows as my parents didnt want me to have anything to do with the gay hosts. By watching these guys present music they beleived i could have caught their gayness
I have my gay neihbours babysit my daughter.
so much has changed and needs to change more. but its hard to change when so many do not support your quest, are actually against it.
Education subtracts fear
and Gays are like me and you. completely. only difference is sex/ love and thats their business as my own is mine
“a lot of older people had a limited access to information about others…they had their parents and peers, their local priest. Radio shows and maybe a few tv shows”
Whoa- wait a minute- I thought I was one of those older guy! You must be talking about my father’s generation- the GI generation. I hate to tell you this, but my old man is 90 and most of his piers are dead and gone. And they weren’t clueless, believe me. The next generation- that’s mine- the “baby boomers” have not been shorted on access to information. True, we didn’t have the internet in the 60‘s and seventies, but we talked- in person- face to face and in groups. We didn’t have 187 TV channels, but how many do you need to get news? I mean, it didn’t take weeks to find out a man walked on the moon.
Sorry, that part just struck me as a bit odd. Besides, so much HAS changed in the world since the time of only getting news from priests, radio and a few TV shows as sources of information (and, again, I think you must be talking about the 30’s or 40’s into the early 50’s). A black man has been elected president of the U.S. Women are prevalent in congress and hold high positions in business and in other careers (still a ways to go there, but much has improved). Some things have changed because people demanded it.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t get the feeling you oppose changing people attitudes toward gays, I just don’t agree with the “as long as it takes” part. That is too passive. The bias against gays has to stop. We humans have always had a gay population (same is true even for other species besides homo sapiens). Some cultures have been much more enlightened than ours in accepting that and in having no problem at all with homosexuality. We’re behind the times, way behind. It’s time to get real and get fair. No more “waiting for things to take their natural course.” It’s time to give equality to gays now, not decades from now. We’ve had this discussion long enough already.
my old man is in his late 60's and in australia at that time their was limited information. this has grown over time. my point is that in those days ( my youth 42 yrs ) our world view was very narrow. its growing the things we feared we now realise are not scary at all
as long as it takes
so whats more inportant for example GLobal warming crisis/ polluting for free or gay rights
im in the global warming crisis camp as its not much good to have rights on a planet that is slowly going down the toilet.
finding a cure for cystic fibrosis is so much more inportant to me than gay rights
gays have hope theat they will be equal. I just hope my daughter lives without the pain she has to deal with every day. but do I whinge about only 7 million being spent on research into children with CF from a kitty of 300 million. no I raise funds and awareness.
please dont take me mentioning my own issue , Im showing my relevence. where my mind is at
What's the difference between whining and raising awareness?
Taking action- be an activist, orginize events, write letters, educate yourself and others, practice what you preach. Doing something rather than just venting not only makes a difference, it feels good.
"Don't give in to the lies. Don't give in to the fear. Hold on to the truth. And to hope."
i mean seriously.. how long would it take for them to remedy the imbalance? there shouldnt even be a debate cause what could possibly be said against giving gays total, not token equal rights? are they considered 2nd class citizens??? if the answer is no, then what the fuck is the problem??? oh yeah thats right.... gays arent like you and me... if they want to marry and have the same rights as us straighties then maybe they should just stop being gay. :roll: i will never fathom how equality can be judged through sexual preference.
how long
as long as it takes.
we have to realise that a lot of older people had a limited access to information about others, in my lifetime this has changed dramatically.
they had their parents and peers, their local preist. Radio shows and maybe a few tv shows
I have internet and cable, here I am discussing with you this stuff, learning from you and others
As a youngster i was never allowed to watch our 2 available music shows as my parents didnt want me to have anything to do with the gay hosts. By watching these guys present music they beleived i could have caught their gayness
I have my gay neihbours babysit my daughter.
so much has changed and needs to change more. but its hard to change when so many do not support your quest, are actually against it.
Education subtracts fear
and Gays are like me and you. completely. only difference is sex/ love and thats their business as my own is mine
i dont have to realise anything about the older people. i KNOW what their attitude is and while its their attitude and theyre entitled to it, we cant sit around and wait for them to get on board. i hear this argument about the republican debate and changing the flag. do we have to wait til all the old folks die before change can be implemented. or can we just get ahold of some politicians with the balls to do the right thing. and im sure there are more than a few gays in the old folks generation who would like to be treated equally.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
the australian flag has the flag of another nation in the top left hand corner. many of us feel that it is no longer an appropriate representation of our nation. its time we grew up and got our own flag... oh and lets get rid of the monarchy as well. a foreigner as head of state??? i dont think so. its time australia became a republic.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
What's the difference between whining and raising awareness?
Taking action- be an activist, orginize events, write letters, educate yourself and others, practice what you preach. Doing something rather than just venting not only makes a difference, it feels good.
It just seems like whenever someone talks about an issue they think needs to be changed, those who agree call it raising awareness while those who disagree call it whining. It seems hypocritical to me to say, "I'm raising awareness about the issues that are important to me, but when it comes to issues that are important to you, you're just whining." Whining is in the eyes of the beholder, it seems, and has little to do with the one accused of whining & much more to do with the one doing the accusing.
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,728
What's the difference between whining and raising awareness?
Taking action- be an activist, orginize events, write letters, educate yourself and others, practice what you preach. Doing something rather than just venting not only makes a difference, it feels good.
It just seems like whenever someone talks about an issue they think needs to be changed, those who agree call it raising awareness while those who disagree call it whining. It seems hypocritical to me to say, "I'm raising awareness about the issues that are important to me, but when it comes to issues that are important to you, you're just whining." Whining is in the eyes of the beholder, it seems, and has little to do with the one accused of whining & much more to do with the one doing the accusing.
I think I see what you mean. Whining certainly gains us nothing except maybe the need to vent. Of course raising awareness- like education- is more useful but still falls short of action. In the human services program in which I used to work we often reffered to a particular style of counselling as "Hollywood counselling"- where the client goes back again and again for some sympathy but never gets better because no action is taken. Nothing changes by talk alone- only by doing something.
"Don't give in to the lies. Don't give in to the fear. Hold on to the truth. And to hope."
It just seems like whenever someone talks about an issue they think needs to be changed, those who agree call it raising awareness while those who disagree call it whining. It seems hypocritical to me to say, "I'm raising awareness about the issues that are important to me, but when it comes to issues that are important to you, you're just whining." Whining is in the eyes of the beholder, it seems, and has little to do with the one accused of whining & much more to do with the one doing the accusing.
I think I see what you mean. Whining certainly gains us nothing except maybe the need to vent. Of course raising awareness- like education- is more useful but still falls short of action. In the human services program in which I used to work we often reffered to a particular style of counselling as "Hollywood counselling"- where the client goes back again and again for some sympathy but never gets better because no action is taken. Nothing changes by talk alone- only by doing something.
Hollywood counseling?
I would argue that discussing something on a message board is one form of raising awareness, and raising awareness is one form of action. (After all, look at the huge role the Internet plays in social justice movements these days, from the EZLN to the WM3.) Even if people disagree that this can be productive, we still can't say the people promoting their cause on the Internet are not taking action, because we don't know what they are or aren't doing in the "real world".
Gay people still live in fear in many countries around the world – prejudice, torture and execution are common. Can two new legal and diplomatic campaigns change attitudes?
Zoe Williams
Guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 13 September 2011
Two teenagers are publicly hanged under anti-gay laws in Mashhad, Iran, in 2005.
Last Thursday, three men were hanged in Iran for the crime of lavat, sexual intercourse between two men. The case is considered extreme even by Iranian standards, because while the death penalty is in place for homosexuality, it is usually enforced only when there is a charge of assault or rape alongside it; the accusations in these three cases were of consensual sex.
In Uganda, politicians have been seeking since 2009 to institute a strikingly nasty piece of legislation: the death penalty for "aggravated homosexuality" (being homosexual more than once) and, in a totalitarian touch, penalties for teachers, doctors and even parents who suspected that someone in their care was gay but didn't report them. In Belize, there is a law on the statute books that criminalises homosexuality; a gay rights group in the country, Unibam, has brought a motion challenging the law, and had this reply from the minister of works, Anthony "Boots" Martinez: "My position is that God never placed anything on me for me to look at a man and jump on a man. I'll be clear on it … How would you decriminalise that, I am sorry, but that is law. Not only is the law made by man, that is a law made from the Bible. Why you think God made a man and a woman, man has what woman wants, and woman has what man wants, it's as simple as that. I'll fight tooth and nail to keep that law."
For lesbian and gay people who live in one of the 82 countries where homosexuality is criminalised, the world is not getting better: it is getting significantly, demonstrably worse. The irony – it's actually not an irony, it's a source of great shame, but it is also an unhappy coincidence – is that 40 of these countries are members of the Commonwealth, and this is a British export. Homosexuality was criminalised here in the 1880s, and was therefore part of our legislative package in the age of empire. By the time it was decriminalised in England and Wales in the Sexual Offences Act of 1967 (Scotland followed in 1980 and Northern Ireland in 1982), we no longer had any control over Commonwealth jurisdictions. The repeal came after a report by Lord Wolfenden in 1957; if its findings had only been enacted more swiftly, today unnumbered people across the Commonwealth – at an estimate, more than a million – would be living entirely different lives. Jonathan Cooper, CEO of the Human Dignity Trust, says: "The human misery that criminalisation causes can never be overestimated. The impact on lesbian and gay people growing up, you cannot overestimate what it does to people living under those laws, even if they're not being prosecuted. Just the fact that the rest of society is denied to them, they have no access to it."
That's the bad news. Incredibly, for a story like this, there is also good news. Apart from specific campaigning bodies such as Stonewall and more general human rights agencies such as Amnesty, there is a new crop of organisations trying to tackle this in a different way. This isn't another story about new media taking on old battles, though an awe-inspiring Facebook campaign, We Are Everywhere, has gained ground since the hangings last week. But two groups in particular are taking the old-fashioned routes of top-level pressure and the rule of law. Kaleidoscope is described by its director, Lance Price, thus: "First, we're being driven by the experience of the people in the countries we're talking about. If you look at any country in the world where there has been progress, it started with a small group of people who had the courage to stand up. It's their struggle, these are their countries. Second, the people involved have been active in politics at a very high level [Price is a former adviser to Tony Blair], or active in the civil service at a very high level. I'm not bragging. But we're working all the time on behalf of people who struggle to have a voice, and we can bring them to the attention of powerful people who do make decisions, in their own countries and here."
It's not lobbying, exactly; it's not diplomacy, but it is characterised by "quiet conversations with people who can make a difference. We're going to have to engage with people, quietly, rather than shouting at them."
The other group, the Human Dignity Trust, is not a campaigning organisation either. It is not there to raise awareness and is not even there to put pressure on governments. It is setting out to change the law, in the Commonwealth and beyond, on the basis that it is a breach of international human rights to criminalise someone's sexual identity.
With a few exceptions – Saudi Arabia being one – all the countries that criminalise homosexuality are signed up to either the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights or they are bound by test case rulings in their respective courts. "This is a matter of law," Cooper says. "Once you're not following the law, you're undermining the rule of law." This is reflected in the list of the trust's patrons – the former attorney general of India; the former secretary general of the Commonwealth; Lord Woolf, former lord chief justice of England and Wales; and a former judge at the Intra-American court of human rights. "They are not pursuing this as part of a lesbian and gay agenda. It's an international rights law agenda," says Cooper.
The story of the trust is this: when Uganda's homophobic upsurge began two years ago, Tim Otty, a QC with a "strong sense of fairness" (according to his entry in Chambers UK), was asked by the Commonwealth Association to give his advice on the law, and found it, perhaps unsurprisingly, to be in breach of their human rights treaty obligations. Cooper, also a barrister and a friend of Otty, explains how the situation evolved: "Tim is pretty establishment – he's at Blackstone chambers, he's not somebody you would associate with lesbian and gay issues. Unlike me, because I've been around these issues for 20, 30 years; I've done transgender cases, I've done sexuality in the armed forces cases, I've done loads of this type of stuff. So I was not at all surprised when, as we found out in our research, 80-plus jurisdictions continue to criminalise homosexuality around the world. That's almost half the countries in the world." He was amazed that countries still criminalised in flagrant violation of international human rights law, even having signed the treaty.
The test case for European law was Jeff Dudgeon v the United Kingdom in 1981, when the activist brought a case against the British government for the fact that criminalisation was still in force in Northern Ireland. "In a way that was the revolution," says Cooper. "Human rights now protected the lesbian and gay identity. But the Brits didn't over-defend Dudgeon." If you are looking for excessive defence, that happened in the Repulic of Ireland in the late-80s. "They threw everything at this case, to say: you are not going to change our law, human rights law cannot change Ireland's Christian-based law. The Strasbourg court said: 'Actually, we can.'" After one more case, in Cyprus, this became a settled matter for the Council of Europe. Then, following a case brought by Nicholas Toonan in Australia in 1991, the same decision was reached by the UN. "By the mid-90s, it had been settled: international human rights law doesn't protect lesbian and gay rights; it protects identity. And as a consequence of protecting identity it protects you as a gay man or a lesbian woman from having your identity criminalised. That's how it works," Cooper explains.
So all the trust has to do now is change the world, through test case litigation. It does so by finding an individual who is mounting a challenge against, say, the government of Belize, and then, to put it a layman's way, piling in. "I email our legal panel, asking: anyone have any experience of litigating in Belize? Someone comes back and says yeah, we'll represent you in this legal challenge. They bring in as their counsel Lord Goldsmith, and the former attorney general of Belize, Godfrey Smith. We turn up as the international community, with a legitimate interest in the outcome of this case, but we do change the nature of the struggle because we have approached it on the basis that it's a major legal challenge. That is our intention." They're not going to know what's hit them, I observe. "You almost feel sorry for the judge!" Cooper replies, delighted.
Naturally, an appeal will be mounted, whoever loses, and the case will then go to a higher court. "What that means is that when we turn up in the difficult places of Africa and Asia, it's watertight. You can imagine them saying: 'Well, that's South Africa, that's the US supreme court' and trying to distinguish them. But it would be very difficult to distinguish two privy council decisions, one from the South Pacific, one from the Caribbean. If you are that independent judge in Kenya, faced with those authorities, how do you say: 'We're going to retain criminalisation'? You can't."
Price is quite cautious about the work he's taken on: he thinks the process will be slow, and its impact subtle. "If we can just begin to level the playing field a bit so that the other side is put, that will be progress. Because, at the moment, those who want to preach hate have pretty well got a free run."
Cooper, also measured but with the fire of optimism in his eyes, thinks they could have all the decisions they need in five years. "We will have to pay for cases in jurisdictions; I don't see why local lawyers should do it pro bono. We will fundraise, and there is something rather charming that you can say to somebody: 'If you give us £50,000, I can more or less guarantee that you will have decriminalised homosexuality in Tonga.' And actually, you know, that's great."
Comments
All of the current sitting republicans who've done fuck all to help create jobs but have gone right for their social wedge issues like gay marrige and abortion and weakening the power of collective bargaining to create a poor working class.
And me.
Because I have a job and I work in an industry that's doing just fine economically. So since you don't care about my rights, why should I give a shit about the issues that matter to you?
Until we live in an equal and just society, I don't think we live in a free society.
And I think, quite honestly, that our leaders are quite capable of passing a few laws to protect my rights while they also try to create more jobs for you.
so you have it a lot better than a lot of others. but you feel I should support you in your quest to be equal.
I disagree I much rather would support them get closer to our standards.
sure your right, your oppertunities may be limited due to our christian based society. you should be equal in all ways. i do agree
but
Many others need us to stand up for them, sure the situation with you is not fair, but with them its downright fucking criminal
you can live with the partner of choice . they cannot even be seen as having that particular sexual persuation because of fear of death
when I stand there i see people all around , people the same as me . the same love for their family and freinds
different situations BUT ALL THE SAME
we all deserve the same
all of us
why should you get all your want before others are brought up to your level
Those kinds of comments make you sound arrogant and selfish. I have a job also, but I care about people that do not!
You're the one who said "you can get married in some states" as if that should be enough. You're the one with the rights telling me that I should be happy with less and that I should focus only on things that YOU care about and pipe down about the things that don't matter to you.
Don't play the "arrogant and selfish" card with me. You will lose.
So wait... before you will support me standing up for myself and my family's equality in America, you think I should instead just drop that and try to change anti-gay laws in Saudi Arabia and Jakarta.
Must be nice up in that ivory tower of yours... telling me that you won't let me in until I change the rest of the world first.
Sorry. No.
Why SHOULDN'T he?? :? It's not a zero-sum game. We can support equality & justice for EVERYONE.
No I do support you in your quest as i said I support all being equal. My point is that you do have an awlul lot of rights already. whilst others do not.
never said wont let you in
you are in, you just want a better room. whilst others are sleeping in the street.
Ah.
And what have you done to remedy that?
And can I say that I'm sick and fucking tired of being told "sorry, no time to deal with your problems now... there are bigger ones... you'll have to wait just a bit longer... yeah... sorry.. not this year.... maybe next year... just be patient... I want you to have those rights.... can you just wait a bit longer?... there are children starving in Japan... banks to bail out... wars to start.... no, can't can't end DOMA just yet... we need the Christians in the next election... no, you can't server openly in the military just yet... we're at war... and you know... that's gonna hurt a marine's feelings.... no... sorry, you have to wait in the hospital hallway while your husband dies in there alone... you understand... we'll do something about that next year."
I like this statement a lot. It can be applied universally to anyone who is oppressed.
for example, should we censor comedians? When one person is offended by a bad joke.
So now, we have Tracy Morgan and Katt Williams having to release apologies. At least Katt stood up for him self…… Well so far.
i mean seriously.. how long would it take for them to remedy the imbalance? there shouldnt even be a debate cause what could possibly be said against giving gays total, not token equal rights? are they considered 2nd class citizens??? if the answer is no, then what the fuck is the problem??? oh yeah thats right.... gays arent like you and me... if they want to marry and have the same rights as us straighties then maybe they should just stop being gay. :roll: i will never fathom how equality can be judged through sexual preference.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
What have I done to remedy that.
there aint a hell of a lot I can do and have my own battles to fight. But with that battle I tend to talk of inspiration and gratitude. and those battles i fight may just help others to LIVE not get married but to actually NOT DIE. sure It has a selfish part to that as it may save my daughters life
I have in the past attended and marched in support of the gay community here in australia in Sydneys Mardi gra parade. I also vote for the most gay freindly party in my respective parliments. not for their gay policies but for their enviromental ideals.
I have many many gay freinds, our neihbours are a fantastic gay couple who I would trust my life with. I have talked with them regarding your angst. they say they are very happy with their lot.
our gay freinds are no different to any of our straight freinds. sure they have some rights issues to deal with and I support that but they have patience.
its gunna take a lot of time to bleed out the predjidice in our society, but generation after generation is slowly changing. my father for exaple reckons that gays should be rounded up and have their gayness beaten out of them. a generation later and its opposite.
its getting better. slowly but its happening. patience..
im not the enemy far from it
how long
as long as it takes.
we have to realise that a lot of older people had a limited access to information about others, in my lifetime this has changed dramatically.
they had their parents and peers, their local preist. Radio shows and maybe a few tv shows
I have internet and cable, here I am discussing with you this stuff, learning from you and others
As a youngster i was never allowed to watch our 2 available music shows as my parents didnt want me to have anything to do with the gay hosts. By watching these guys present music they beleived i could have caught their gayness
I have my gay neihbours babysit my daughter.
so much has changed and needs to change more. but its hard to change when so many do not support your quest, are actually against it.
Education subtracts fear
and Gays are like me and you. completely. only difference is sex/ love and thats their business as my own is mine
Whoa- wait a minute- I thought I was one of those older guy!
Sorry, that part just struck me as a bit odd. Besides, so much HAS changed in the world since the time of only getting news from priests, radio and a few TV shows as sources of information (and, again, I think you must be talking about the 30’s or 40’s into the early 50’s). A black man has been elected president of the U.S. Women are prevalent in congress and hold high positions in business and in other careers (still a ways to go there, but much has improved). Some things have changed because people demanded it.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t get the feeling you oppose changing people attitudes toward gays, I just don’t agree with the “as long as it takes” part. That is too passive. The bias against gays has to stop. We humans have always had a gay population (same is true even for other species besides homo sapiens). Some cultures have been much more enlightened than ours in accepting that and in having no problem at all with homosexuality. We’re behind the times, way behind. It’s time to get real and get fair. No more “waiting for things to take their natural course.” It’s time to give equality to gays now, not decades from now. We’ve had this discussion long enough already.
my old man is in his late 60's and in australia at that time their was limited information. this has grown over time. my point is that in those days ( my youth 42 yrs ) our world view was very narrow. its growing the things we feared we now realise are not scary at all
as long as it takes
so whats more inportant for example GLobal warming crisis/ polluting for free or gay rights
im in the global warming crisis camp as its not much good to have rights on a planet that is slowly going down the toilet.
finding a cure for cystic fibrosis is so much more inportant to me than gay rights
gays have hope theat they will be equal. I just hope my daughter lives without the pain she has to deal with every day. but do I whinge about only 7 million being spent on research into children with CF from a kitty of 300 million. no I raise funds and awareness.
please dont take me mentioning my own issue , Im showing my relevence. where my mind is at
Taking action- be an activist, orginize events, write letters, educate yourself and others, practice what you preach. Doing something rather than just venting not only makes a difference, it feels good.
i dont have to realise anything about the older people. i KNOW what their attitude is and while its their attitude and theyre entitled to it, we cant sit around and wait for them to get on board. i hear this argument about the republican debate and changing the flag. do we have to wait til all the old folks die before change can be implemented. or can we just get ahold of some politicians with the balls to do the right thing. and im sure there are more than a few gays in the old folks generation who would like to be treated equally.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
the australian flag has the flag of another nation in the top left hand corner. many of us feel that it is no longer an appropriate representation of our nation. its time we grew up and got our own flag... oh and lets get rid of the monarchy as well. a foreigner as head of state??? i dont think so. its time australia became a republic.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Not sure you knew, but not everyone that posts here lives in the US and as such may have wishes and desires regarding their own country.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
It just seems like whenever someone talks about an issue they think needs to be changed, those who agree call it raising awareness while those who disagree call it whining. It seems hypocritical to me to say, "I'm raising awareness about the issues that are important to me, but when it comes to issues that are important to you, you're just whining." Whining is in the eyes of the beholder, it seems, and has little to do with the one accused of whining & much more to do with the one doing the accusing.
I think I see what you mean. Whining certainly gains us nothing except maybe the need to vent. Of course raising awareness- like education- is more useful but still falls short of action. In the human services program in which I used to work we often reffered to a particular style of counselling as "Hollywood counselling"- where the client goes back again and again for some sympathy but never gets better because no action is taken. Nothing changes by talk alone- only by doing something.
Hollywood counseling?
I would argue that discussing something on a message board is one form of raising awareness, and raising awareness is one form of action. (After all, look at the huge role the Internet plays in social justice movements these days, from the EZLN to the WM3.) Even if people disagree that this can be productive, we still can't say the people promoting their cause on the Internet are not taking action, because we don't know what they are or aren't doing in the "real world".
Gay rights: a world of inequality
Gay people still live in fear in many countries around the world – prejudice, torture and execution are common. Can two new legal and diplomatic campaigns change attitudes?
Zoe Williams
Guardian.co.uk, Tuesday 13 September 2011
Two teenagers are publicly hanged under anti-gay laws in Mashhad, Iran, in 2005.
Last Thursday, three men were hanged in Iran for the crime of lavat, sexual intercourse between two men. The case is considered extreme even by Iranian standards, because while the death penalty is in place for homosexuality, it is usually enforced only when there is a charge of assault or rape alongside it; the accusations in these three cases were of consensual sex.
In Uganda, politicians have been seeking since 2009 to institute a strikingly nasty piece of legislation: the death penalty for "aggravated homosexuality" (being homosexual more than once) and, in a totalitarian touch, penalties for teachers, doctors and even parents who suspected that someone in their care was gay but didn't report them. In Belize, there is a law on the statute books that criminalises homosexuality; a gay rights group in the country, Unibam, has brought a motion challenging the law, and had this reply from the minister of works, Anthony "Boots" Martinez: "My position is that God never placed anything on me for me to look at a man and jump on a man. I'll be clear on it … How would you decriminalise that, I am sorry, but that is law. Not only is the law made by man, that is a law made from the Bible. Why you think God made a man and a woman, man has what woman wants, and woman has what man wants, it's as simple as that. I'll fight tooth and nail to keep that law."
For lesbian and gay people who live in one of the 82 countries where homosexuality is criminalised, the world is not getting better: it is getting significantly, demonstrably worse. The irony – it's actually not an irony, it's a source of great shame, but it is also an unhappy coincidence – is that 40 of these countries are members of the Commonwealth, and this is a British export. Homosexuality was criminalised here in the 1880s, and was therefore part of our legislative package in the age of empire. By the time it was decriminalised in England and Wales in the Sexual Offences Act of 1967 (Scotland followed in 1980 and Northern Ireland in 1982), we no longer had any control over Commonwealth jurisdictions. The repeal came after a report by Lord Wolfenden in 1957; if its findings had only been enacted more swiftly, today unnumbered people across the Commonwealth – at an estimate, more than a million – would be living entirely different lives. Jonathan Cooper, CEO of the Human Dignity Trust, says: "The human misery that criminalisation causes can never be overestimated. The impact on lesbian and gay people growing up, you cannot overestimate what it does to people living under those laws, even if they're not being prosecuted. Just the fact that the rest of society is denied to them, they have no access to it."
That's the bad news. Incredibly, for a story like this, there is also good news. Apart from specific campaigning bodies such as Stonewall and more general human rights agencies such as Amnesty, there is a new crop of organisations trying to tackle this in a different way. This isn't another story about new media taking on old battles, though an awe-inspiring Facebook campaign, We Are Everywhere, has gained ground since the hangings last week. But two groups in particular are taking the old-fashioned routes of top-level pressure and the rule of law. Kaleidoscope is described by its director, Lance Price, thus: "First, we're being driven by the experience of the people in the countries we're talking about. If you look at any country in the world where there has been progress, it started with a small group of people who had the courage to stand up. It's their struggle, these are their countries. Second, the people involved have been active in politics at a very high level [Price is a former adviser to Tony Blair], or active in the civil service at a very high level. I'm not bragging. But we're working all the time on behalf of people who struggle to have a voice, and we can bring them to the attention of powerful people who do make decisions, in their own countries and here."
It's not lobbying, exactly; it's not diplomacy, but it is characterised by "quiet conversations with people who can make a difference. We're going to have to engage with people, quietly, rather than shouting at them."
The other group, the Human Dignity Trust, is not a campaigning organisation either. It is not there to raise awareness and is not even there to put pressure on governments. It is setting out to change the law, in the Commonwealth and beyond, on the basis that it is a breach of international human rights to criminalise someone's sexual identity.
With a few exceptions – Saudi Arabia being one – all the countries that criminalise homosexuality are signed up to either the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights or they are bound by test case rulings in their respective courts. "This is a matter of law," Cooper says. "Once you're not following the law, you're undermining the rule of law." This is reflected in the list of the trust's patrons – the former attorney general of India; the former secretary general of the Commonwealth; Lord Woolf, former lord chief justice of England and Wales; and a former judge at the Intra-American court of human rights. "They are not pursuing this as part of a lesbian and gay agenda. It's an international rights law agenda," says Cooper.
The story of the trust is this: when Uganda's homophobic upsurge began two years ago, Tim Otty, a QC with a "strong sense of fairness" (according to his entry in Chambers UK), was asked by the Commonwealth Association to give his advice on the law, and found it, perhaps unsurprisingly, to be in breach of their human rights treaty obligations. Cooper, also a barrister and a friend of Otty, explains how the situation evolved: "Tim is pretty establishment – he's at Blackstone chambers, he's not somebody you would associate with lesbian and gay issues. Unlike me, because I've been around these issues for 20, 30 years; I've done transgender cases, I've done sexuality in the armed forces cases, I've done loads of this type of stuff. So I was not at all surprised when, as we found out in our research, 80-plus jurisdictions continue to criminalise homosexuality around the world. That's almost half the countries in the world." He was amazed that countries still criminalised in flagrant violation of international human rights law, even having signed the treaty.
The test case for European law was Jeff Dudgeon v the United Kingdom in 1981, when the activist brought a case against the British government for the fact that criminalisation was still in force in Northern Ireland. "In a way that was the revolution," says Cooper. "Human rights now protected the lesbian and gay identity. But the Brits didn't over-defend Dudgeon." If you are looking for excessive defence, that happened in the Repulic of Ireland in the late-80s. "They threw everything at this case, to say: you are not going to change our law, human rights law cannot change Ireland's Christian-based law. The Strasbourg court said: 'Actually, we can.'" After one more case, in Cyprus, this became a settled matter for the Council of Europe. Then, following a case brought by Nicholas Toonan in Australia in 1991, the same decision was reached by the UN. "By the mid-90s, it had been settled: international human rights law doesn't protect lesbian and gay rights; it protects identity. And as a consequence of protecting identity it protects you as a gay man or a lesbian woman from having your identity criminalised. That's how it works," Cooper explains.
So all the trust has to do now is change the world, through test case litigation. It does so by finding an individual who is mounting a challenge against, say, the government of Belize, and then, to put it a layman's way, piling in. "I email our legal panel, asking: anyone have any experience of litigating in Belize? Someone comes back and says yeah, we'll represent you in this legal challenge. They bring in as their counsel Lord Goldsmith, and the former attorney general of Belize, Godfrey Smith. We turn up as the international community, with a legitimate interest in the outcome of this case, but we do change the nature of the struggle because we have approached it on the basis that it's a major legal challenge. That is our intention." They're not going to know what's hit them, I observe. "You almost feel sorry for the judge!" Cooper replies, delighted.
Naturally, an appeal will be mounted, whoever loses, and the case will then go to a higher court. "What that means is that when we turn up in the difficult places of Africa and Asia, it's watertight. You can imagine them saying: 'Well, that's South Africa, that's the US supreme court' and trying to distinguish them. But it would be very difficult to distinguish two privy council decisions, one from the South Pacific, one from the Caribbean. If you are that independent judge in Kenya, faced with those authorities, how do you say: 'We're going to retain criminalisation'? You can't."
Price is quite cautious about the work he's taken on: he thinks the process will be slow, and its impact subtle. "If we can just begin to level the playing field a bit so that the other side is put, that will be progress. Because, at the moment, those who want to preach hate have pretty well got a free run."
Cooper, also measured but with the fire of optimism in his eyes, thinks they could have all the decisions they need in five years. "We will have to pay for cases in jurisdictions; I don't see why local lawyers should do it pro bono. We will fundraise, and there is something rather charming that you can say to somebody: 'If you give us £50,000, I can more or less guarantee that you will have decriminalised homosexuality in Tonga.' And actually, you know, that's great."