How does it relate? Apparently your computer doesn't give you squiggly lines to help with reading comprehension. I kid, I kid.
Because it would surprise me that some heavy-footed activists in their younger days start to "mellow" a bit as they learn more and more and start to find middle ground or even switch sides. It works both ways. The only people that don't ever seem to do that are the politicians because for some reason, people perceive it as a weakness to change a point of view.
people mellow out for sure but they don't necessarily go from one end to the other ...
in any case, we are still waiting for examples of left leaning artists who moved to the right when they get older ...
john lennon most likely ran with the hell angels, dropped a shit-load of acid and probably worshipped the devil on days he wasn't into jesus or god or karma or buddha... yes/no?
john lennon most likely ran with the hell angels, dropped a shit-load of acid and probably worshipped the devil on days he wasn't into jesus or god or karma or buddha... yes/no?
john lennon most likely ran with the hell angels, dropped a shit-load of acid and probably worshipped the devil on days he wasn't into jesus or god or karma or buddha... yes/no?
Yes, but according to one person 'he was really sour on (Democrat) Jimmy Carter', despite the inconvenient fact that when Jimmy Carter was inaugurated as president in January 1977, Lennon and Ono attended the Inaugural Ball. And despite the other inconvenient fact that everything John Lennon said and did pointed to him being on the left, and staunchly opposed to Conservatism.
How does it relate? Apparently your computer doesn't give you squiggly lines to help with reading comprehension. I kid, I kid.
Because it would surprise me that some heavy-footed activists in their younger days start to "mellow" a bit as they learn more and more and start to find middle ground or even switch sides. It works both ways. The only people that don't ever seem to do that are the politicians because for some reason, people perceive it as a weakness to change a point of view.
people mellow out for sure but they don't necessarily go from one end to the other ...
in any case, we are still waiting for examples of left leaning artists who moved to the right when they get older ...
Said it before, I'll say it again: John Lennon. Also, as I've said earlier in the thread, many may have done just as mentioned and not said anything about it.
I guess I could use Krist Novoselic. He was elected as a Dem, but recently held up support for Ron Paul for President.
Regardless of the example I supply, you're just going to continue to ask for more. I already said Johnny Ramone.
I also honestly think someone like Ed may have moved right. Does that mean he's still left-of-center? Yes. But, do I think he may have shifted right? Yes.
My overall point: When musicians (or anyone) is young, they think it's conservatives vs. liberals. They may side with liberals. But, as they learn more, they could move to libertarian point of view. That's to moving to the right.
john lennon most likely ran with the hell angels, dropped a shit-load of acid and probably worshipped the devil on days he wasn't into jesus or god or karma or buddha... yes/no?
We know that he did drop a shit-load of acid.
Shows: 6.27.08 Hartford, CT/5.15.10 Hartford, CT/6.18.2011 Hartford, CT (EV Solo)/10.19.13 Brooklyn/10.25.13 Hartford
"Becoming a Bruce fan is like hitting puberty as a musical fan. It's inevitable." - dcfaithful
How does it relate? Apparently your computer doesn't give you squiggly lines to help with reading comprehension. I kid, I kid.
Because it would surprise me that some heavy-footed activists in their younger days start to "mellow" a bit as they learn more and more and start to find middle ground or even switch sides. It works both ways. The only people that don't ever seem to do that are the politicians because for some reason, people perceive it as a weakness to change a point of view.
people mellow out for sure but they don't necessarily go from one end to the other ...
in any case, we are still waiting for examples of left leaning artists who moved to the right when they get older ...
Said it before, I'll say it again: John Lennon. Also, as I've said earlier in the thread, many may have done just as mentioned and not said anything about it.
I guess I could use Krist Novoselic. He was elected as a Dem, but recently held up support for Ron Paul for President.
Regardless of the example I supply, you're just going to continue to ask for more. I already said Johnny Ramone.
I also honestly think someone like Ed may have moved right. Does that mean he's still left-of-center? Yes. But, do I think he may have shifted right? Yes.
My overall point: When musicians (or anyone) is young, they think it's conservatives vs. liberals. They may side with liberals. But, as they learn more, they could move to libertarian point of view. That's to moving to the right.
Ask Yoko if he turned Republican then come back to us.
Shows: 6.27.08 Hartford, CT/5.15.10 Hartford, CT/6.18.2011 Hartford, CT (EV Solo)/10.19.13 Brooklyn/10.25.13 Hartford
"Becoming a Bruce fan is like hitting puberty as a musical fan. It's inevitable." - dcfaithful
I asked you about your spelling. You didn't comment.
Johnny Ramone is one. He was once quoted saying, "People drift towards liberalism at a young age, and I always hope they change when they see how the world really is."
If you know anything about the Ramones, you'd know that Joey Ramone was a liberal while Johnny was a Republican. And they still got along and made great music while advocating their political stances.
Said it before, I'll say it again: John Lennon. Also, as I've said earlier in the thread, many may have done just as mentioned and not said anything about it.
I guess I could use Krist Novoselic. He was elected as a Dem, but recently held up support for Ron Paul for President.
Regardless of the example I supply, you're just going to continue to ask for more. I already said Johnny Ramone.
I also honestly think someone like Ed may have moved right. Does that mean he's still left-of-center? Yes. But, do I think he may have shifted right? Yes.
My overall point: When musicians (or anyone) is young, they think it's conservatives vs. liberals. They may side with liberals. But, as they learn more, they could move to libertarian point of view. That's to moving to the right.
if you are going to ascertain that many people do ... i would think you got more than 1 example ...
but i suppose your stance is that these artists who have made this epiphany that their leftist ways was wrong are all in the closet ... :?
all i know is for myself ... the more i get older ... the further left i go ...
I asked you about your spelling. You didn't comment.
Johnny Ramone is one. He was once quoted saying, "People drift towards liberalism at a young age, and I always hope they change when they see how the world really is."
If you know anything about the Ramones, you'd know that Joey Ramone was a liberal while Johnny was a Republican. And they still got along and made great music while advocating their political stances.
i know the Ramones drive me to drink
can't stand 'em
How does it relate? Apparently your computer doesn't give you squiggly lines to help with reading comprehension. I kid, I kid.
Because it would surprise me that some heavy-footed activists in their younger days start to "mellow" a bit as they learn more and more and start to find middle ground or even switch sides. It works both ways. The only people that don't ever seem to do that are the politicians because for some reason, people perceive it as a weakness to change a point of view.
people mellow out for sure but they don't necessarily go from one end to the other ...
in any case, we are still waiting for examples of left leaning artists who moved to the right when they get older ...
Happened with a actor.
True it is unlikely to swing from one end to the other, but it is certainly possible, no?
True it is unlikely to swing from one end to the other, but it is certainly possible, no?
ya ... good thing it wasn't one of the smart ones ... hahaha
no one is saying it isn't possible ... like i said, it for sure happens and likely both ways ... a friend of mine who grew up conservative (she's 73 now) is very leftist now ... her friends ask her why and she says "i've seen the light" ... hahaha
the point tho is that inlet13 is saying leftist viewpoint is wrong ... not even that he disagrees with it ... but that it's wrong! ... and he says by saying many musicians grow older and go from left to right ... this based strictly on one person ...
Despite inlett13's desperate attempts to claim the opposite, based on - at the most - two 'examples', the fact remains that most artists and musicians are left-leaning politically. Those who aren't - people such as Mick Hucknall (cunt) and Johnny Ramone, are the exception.
Of course there's that other branch of so-called musicians who perform pop music for the masses, although I don't regard these manufactured types as artists as most of them have never written a lyric or piece of music in their lives. They are just puppets of the music industry whose job is to sell bland crap for maximum profit. I.e, I couldn't care less where Madonna, or Britney stand politically, or where they'll stand politically in 30 years time.
Anyway, I thought this was interesting considering the recent notice by Tom Petty for Michelle Bachmann to cease using his music on her campaign trail:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/musicblog/2008/sep/11/1 'While Obama has received the support of artists across the spectrum (Bob Dylan, Arcade Fire, Springsteen, Green Day and Usher, to name just a few), John McCain has struggled to find support from musicians – in particular in rap and rock. Still, the Republicans chose to blast Heart's Barracuda in tribute to Sarah Palin's highschool nickname, only to be served with a cease and desist notice by the band. After they played Van Halen's Right Now as they introduced Palin onto the stage, Van Halen's management announced, "Permission was not sought or granted nor would it have been given."
Looks like Republicans will just have to get busy competing for the services of Ted Nugent.
True it is unlikely to swing from one end to the other, but it is certainly possible, no?
ya ... good thing it wasn't one of the smart ones ... hahaha
no one is saying it isn't possible ... like i said, it for sure happens and likely both ways ... a friend of mine who grew up conservative (she's 73 now) is very leftist now ... her friends ask her why and she says "i've seen the light" ... hahaha
the point tho is that inlet13 is saying leftist viewpoint is wrong ... not even that he disagrees with it ... but that it's wrong! ... and he says by saying many musicians grow older and go from left to right ... this based strictly on one person ...
Thanks, but please don't put words in my mouth. You are taking things out of context. I said,..
"I think a lot of famous musicians realize they are wrong about their pro-left stance later on, once they grow up and learn about the world. However, they rarely continue to tout politics at that point. They've already screamed and yelled about their liberal point of view for years and now it would be kinda embarassing to stand up and say they changed their minds"
I said "I think" and "they realize". I could just have easily said I think a lot of famous musicians realize they were wrong about their pro-right stance later on.
I also continued to say that I believe when this occurs (one moving left to right), it's not in their best interest to disclose this info because (if they were outspoken) they would seem hypocritical if they did.
"I think a lot of famous musicians realize they are wrong about their pro-left stance later on, once they grow up and learn about the world. However, they rarely continue to tout politics at that point. They've already screamed and yelled about their liberal point of view for years and now it would be kinda embarassing to stand up and say they changed their minds"
i'm sorry but this is why byrnzie said your post was smug ... you could have said musicians have a change of heart but instead you wrote that they "realize they are wrong" ... based on as we can see no proof ... only speculation ... and based from what we can gather your own personal ideology ...
and yes, you did say they don't want to come out and say it ... which i acknowledged in an earlier post saying you are saying they are in the closet ...
either way - your entire point is based purely on speculation ... and is not grounded in any fact ...
and as i've been saying to cincy ... i do believe people's political views change as the grow older but it doesn't always move in one direction ...
i'm sorry but this is why byrnzie said your post was smug ... you could have said musicians have a change of heart but instead you wrote that they "realize they are wrong" ... based on as we can see no proof ... only speculation ... and based from what we can gather your own personal ideology ...
and yes, you did say they don't want to come out and say it ... which i acknowledged in an earlier post saying you are saying they are in the closet ...
either way - your entire point is based purely on speculation ... and is not grounded in any fact ...
and as i've been saying to cincy ... i do believe people's political views change as the grow older but it doesn't always move in one direction ...
First, the quote was in reference to John Lennon changing his political point of view. When a person change's their mind on a subject, they typically do so because they've come to a new realization and now believe they were wrong.
Second, I said repetitively throughout the thread, that although I believe more people turn conservative as they age, there are certainly exceptions where it works the other way around.
ha ha ah.... it's by sociologists. ha ha... sociologists. Sociologists really shouldn't even sit down with statistics software because of their inherent bias, lack of math skills and inability to take a master a real subject... or at the very least a subject that matters.
But, seriously, how does this sociologist from Vermont and his pal deem one "conservative" and one "liberal"? They don't say in the article. Do they by chance set up their own measurements of what's conservative and what's liberal? hmmm... what's bias mean again?
Your own article was trying to disprove the belief that I mentioned. There are plenty of articles and charts supporting what I mentioned. You supplied one saying it may not be true, using two random sociologists biased model.
Anyway, in this article, there's a chart by zogby, providing more proof of what I said...
You'd have to look at the actual study to decide if it's biased or not, but it would be interesting to see how they defined and measured liberal vs. conservative. There can be problems with the validity of the zogby survey because it asks a sample to reflect on their memories over time. Different things can come into play, such as the consensus definition of the term "liberal", and that during the Bush Jr. years, there was a lot of effort to make the label of liberal a negative thing. You see a lot people who may call themselves middle of the road, but actually adhere to a lot of liberal beliefs. There tends to be more disparity of how liberals label themselves when compared to conservatives.
Also, be careful when using the word "proof" when referring to a study within social science. There are many variables when studying people, and the term proof is rarely used amongst professionals within that group. Proof is a term reserved for more hard sciences. You're welcome in advance (winky).
You'd have to look at the actual study to decide if it's biased or not, but it would be interesting to see how they defined and measured liberal vs. conservative.
Why did you post a study when you don't even know how it was conducted?
First, the quote was in reference to John Lennon changing his political point of view. When a person change's their mind on a subject, they typically do so because they've come to a new realization and now believe they were wrong.
I know you said "typically".. but when I see people flip their views, I see them claim it more as an evolution, not so much as they were previously "wrong".
...one example is kind of like how I go back and forth on abortion. I cant for the life of me advocate it, but I also think that its a decision of the woman. I've been back and forth on this and I dont think I was ever wrong.. just open to change.
it's like a thread where people are arguing about which is better; eating processed beef n' cheese covered in turds or getting kicked in the balls everyday for a year, and basing their arguments on hearsay from 30 years ago.
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
Comments
<object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869"></param> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
people mellow out for sure but they don't necessarily go from one end to the other ...
in any case, we are still waiting for examples of left leaning artists who moved to the right when they get older ...
According to one person.
But because this one persons opinion fits your objective of trying to promote conservatism then it must be true.
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
how about "yes/no/maybe"? :P
Yes, but according to one person 'he was really sour on (Democrat) Jimmy Carter', despite the inconvenient fact that when Jimmy Carter was inaugurated as president in January 1977, Lennon and Ono attended the Inaugural Ball. And despite the other inconvenient fact that everything John Lennon said and did pointed to him being on the left, and staunchly opposed to Conservatism.
Said it before, I'll say it again: John Lennon. Also, as I've said earlier in the thread, many may have done just as mentioned and not said anything about it.
I guess I could use Krist Novoselic. He was elected as a Dem, but recently held up support for Ron Paul for President.
Regardless of the example I supply, you're just going to continue to ask for more. I already said Johnny Ramone.
I also honestly think someone like Ed may have moved right. Does that mean he's still left-of-center? Yes. But, do I think he may have shifted right? Yes.
My overall point: When musicians (or anyone) is young, they think it's conservatives vs. liberals. They may side with liberals. But, as they learn more, they could move to libertarian point of view. That's to moving to the right.
<object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869"></param> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
"Becoming a Bruce fan is like hitting puberty as a musical fan. It's inevitable." - dcfaithful
"Becoming a Bruce fan is like hitting puberty as a musical fan. It's inevitable." - dcfaithful
Yeah, we've already covered that one. Try harder!
And I already said he was a Republican in his teens, so it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
Because he hasn't been so vocal politically recently, therefore he's now on the right?
Not much of a leap there then! :roll:
Why'd you avoid Krist Novaselic?
<object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869"></param> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
If you know anything about the Ramones, you'd know that Joey Ramone was a liberal while Johnny was a Republican. And they still got along and made great music while advocating their political stances.
if you are going to ascertain that many people do ... i would think you got more than 1 example ...
but i suppose your stance is that these artists who have made this epiphany that their leftist ways was wrong are all in the closet ... :?
all i know is for myself ... the more i get older ... the further left i go ...
can't stand 'em
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
Why did it take you all day to find just one example?
as predicted...
<object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869"></param> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
Happened with a actor.
True it is unlikely to swing from one end to the other, but it is certainly possible, no?
ya ... good thing it wasn't one of the smart ones ... hahaha
no one is saying it isn't possible ... like i said, it for sure happens and likely both ways ... a friend of mine who grew up conservative (she's 73 now) is very leftist now ... her friends ask her why and she says "i've seen the light" ... hahaha
the point tho is that inlet13 is saying leftist viewpoint is wrong ... not even that he disagrees with it ... but that it's wrong! ... and he says by saying many musicians grow older and go from left to right ... this based strictly on one person ...
Of course there's that other branch of so-called musicians who perform pop music for the masses, although I don't regard these manufactured types as artists as most of them have never written a lyric or piece of music in their lives. They are just puppets of the music industry whose job is to sell bland crap for maximum profit. I.e, I couldn't care less where Madonna, or Britney stand politically, or where they'll stand politically in 30 years time.
Anyway, I thought this was interesting considering the recent notice by Tom Petty for Michelle Bachmann to cease using his music on her campaign trail:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/musicblog/2008/sep/11/1
'While Obama has received the support of artists across the spectrum (Bob Dylan, Arcade Fire, Springsteen, Green Day and Usher, to name just a few), John McCain has struggled to find support from musicians – in particular in rap and rock. Still, the Republicans chose to blast Heart's Barracuda in tribute to Sarah Palin's highschool nickname, only to be served with a cease and desist notice by the band. After they played Van Halen's Right Now as they introduced Palin onto the stage, Van Halen's management announced, "Permission was not sought or granted nor would it have been given."
Looks like Republicans will just have to get busy competing for the services of Ted Nugent.
Thanks, but please don't put words in my mouth. You are taking things out of context. I said,..
I said "I think" and "they realize". I could just have easily said I think a lot of famous musicians realize they were wrong about their pro-right stance later on.
I also continued to say that I believe when this occurs (one moving left to right), it's not in their best interest to disclose this info because (if they were outspoken) they would seem hypocritical if they did.
<object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869"></param> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
i'm sorry but this is why byrnzie said your post was smug ... you could have said musicians have a change of heart but instead you wrote that they "realize they are wrong" ... based on as we can see no proof ... only speculation ... and based from what we can gather your own personal ideology ...
and yes, you did say they don't want to come out and say it ... which i acknowledged in an earlier post saying you are saying they are in the closet ...
either way - your entire point is based purely on speculation ... and is not grounded in any fact ...
and as i've been saying to cincy ... i do believe people's political views change as the grow older but it doesn't always move in one direction ...
First, the quote was in reference to John Lennon changing his political point of view. When a person change's their mind on a subject, they typically do so because they've come to a new realization and now believe they were wrong.
Second, I said repetitively throughout the thread, that although I believe more people turn conservative as they age, there are certainly exceptions where it works the other way around.
You're nit-picking.
<object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869"></param> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
You'd have to look at the actual study to decide if it's biased or not, but it would be interesting to see how they defined and measured liberal vs. conservative. There can be problems with the validity of the zogby survey because it asks a sample to reflect on their memories over time. Different things can come into play, such as the consensus definition of the term "liberal", and that during the Bush Jr. years, there was a lot of effort to make the label of liberal a negative thing. You see a lot people who may call themselves middle of the road, but actually adhere to a lot of liberal beliefs. There tends to be more disparity of how liberals label themselves when compared to conservatives.
Also, be careful when using the word "proof" when referring to a study within social science. There are many variables when studying people, and the term proof is rarely used amongst professionals within that group. Proof is a term reserved for more hard sciences. You're welcome in advance (winky).
AH-HA! I knew there was one more!
Why did you post a study when you don't even know how it was conducted?
<object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869"></param> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
I know you said "typically".. but when I see people flip their views, I see them claim it more as an evolution, not so much as they were previously "wrong".
...one example is kind of like how I go back and forth on abortion. I cant for the life of me advocate it, but I also think that its a decision of the woman. I've been back and forth on this and I dont think I was ever wrong.. just open to change.